The Baby Name Wizard

RobynT: Yes!! I am very curious. :)

Anna Claire
Amelia Claire
I really like Anna Jane. My own MIL is Jane and I like the name and would loke to honor her by using it. Maybe I will have to look into a double name possibilty. Which brings me to another point... I want to hear name guru pros and cons for double names... ?? :)

I know someone who, for cultural reasons, named her kid with a double first name, both with three syllables. Whew! Plus, the last syllable of the first name and the first syllable of the second name are the same. I wonder if she really thought that through.

(BTW, the post above from "Me" was me. I left off a letter.)

Love Jane, but I think you need a two syllable or more surname and not a very common surname to balance it. Mary Sadira is a big mouthful to me, and Sadira is a little too near sadist IMO. But then I think double ames are more common in the US than UK generally.

I love Sadira. Mary Sadira not so much. But, that is because I am just not a fan of Mary.

Jane is very nice. I agree with everyone who has mentioned that it is crisp. It has a nice sound against all the Lilys, Abbys, and Emmys out there. It is clean like Kate.

What about the name Petra for a girl? It was popular in the 1800's but has fallen off the map. Our son's name is Kane and we like uncommon names without being too odd. Petra means rock and has some religious meaning associated to it, as well as the band Petra (1960-1990's)was my favorite. Is Petra Lillian too out there?

Re: Mary Sadira: I think the tricky thing will be introductions. As an adult she'll say "Hi my name is Mary Sadira [lastname]" and people will think Sadira is part of her last name, because it's not a common given name. It's not like being called, I don't know, Mary Louise, or some other familiar name.

Re: Jane. It's on my list, partly because it's a family name, but I like names that are well-known but not super common right now. It's just a cheerful, simple name.

Re: nicknames. I think that giving a first name when you HATE some of the nicknames can be trouble--the child may very well decide that they like that nickname, and then where will you be? On the other hand, sometimes it's the kid will hate a common nickname.

I'm not Terry, never have been, never will be. I don't hate it as much as I did when I was younger, but I don't recognize it as my name, so when my boss (rarely) asks Terry to do something at a meeting we all look at each other, confused for a minute, before the penny drops.

Oh, and I love Petra. Have you ever seen pictures of the city of Petra? I think that's the best-known instance of the name. I never heard of the band.

That's funny, the name Petra recently popped into my head one night as I was falling asleep, it was a lightbulb moment. I think it's a great name, and definitely not too "out there."

If you really, really do not like a nickname, or really, really do not want your child to use a nickname, do not give your child a name that can be easily morphed into something you dislike - or feel would be unsuitable for the child due to personality or bad connotation.

I spent so much time as a child explaining I am not Kris, Kristi, or Krissy, and though I've mellowed some with age, I still don't like it. Like TJ, I don't even know who people are talking to when they call me Kristi.

It's very difficult to be perpetually reminding others of your 'proper' name without coming off as a bit of a stick in the mud, and once it gets annoying (very quickly) it's hard not to get downright cranky about it. Not the kind of situation I would want to send my kids out into the world dealing with.

I do like Eo's solution - if all else fails, pick a nn that you like and stick with it! Sounds like Banks is quite a good sport about the issue!

Re: Plain Jane and Loose-cy

Teasing is not the issue with children's names. All kids will be teased at some point and if all 'they' have on you is your name, you're a lucky kid.

The real issue, for me, is twofold - firstly, a highly unusual and/or perceived 'uncool' name, or that has negative connotations for most, can immediately cast a child in the eyes of his peers as an outsider. Once judged as 'you not one of us', the child often begins to believe it.

Secondly, for the rest of a child's life, that name will be printed on job resumes, college papers, medical records, and so forth. Snap judgements will be made regarding religion, socio-economic status, level of education, even intellect.

First impressions can and do affect lives on a daily basis - we sacrifice so much to give our kids every opportunity, it just seems a pity to handicap them in such an easy-to-prevent way.

PS - I like both Jane and Lucy a lot!

I LOVE the name Petra. I had always pronounced it like it looks (PET-ruh), but this year I have a student named Petra, pronounced PAY-truh. I believe her father is Austrian. With either pronunciation I think it is a beautiful name. Isn't it the female form of Peter? That would explain the "rock" meaning.

By the way, has anyone read Freakonomics? Kristen Dawn's comment reminded me of their chapter on names. Has this already been discussed on this board? I love their predictions for the top names of 2015...possibly a good place to look if you are trying to avoid naming your child something that will be seen as trendy in a few years (unfortunately, I love most of the names on those lists).

Jane is already being used here. I think it is cute and not too plain, but I would give a more fancy middle name. Anna is a top ten name, not sure if that bothers you.

I'm not so sure about Gentry. While the name itself sounds OK, I would think it's too aspirational for use today since it's actually a word that means of (lesser) noble birth, person of high social standing eg. the "landed gentry". It seems to fit better in the era when parents gave their kids aspirational names like Worthy and Noble.

J&H's mom, and anyone else who wondered about Bellamy: The internet name sources all describe it as a boy's name, but the nickname options definitely appeal to the feminine side, like J&H's mom said, someone liking Bella but not Isabella.

And also, one more meaning name from the Alvin Maker books: Armor-of-God, nn Armor. I got the rest of the series at a 2nd hand bookstore, and I am looking forward to more interestingly named characters!

Oh, also wanted to say re. nicknames. I've only ever used my full name IRL and it hasn't been a problem even though most people went by Cathy in the 70s. Sometimes people just don't remember if I go by Catherine or Cathy and usually ask. Occasionally mostly much older men will just go ahead call me Cathy, but I personally don't find it something to get bent out of shape over.

I find that some names do get automatically nicknamed and I doubt that is ever really going to change. From what I've observed in the younger set (whose parents are more likely to insist on the full name), the names that still get nicknamed are mostly three syllable names, and mostly boys ones. I think they just feel a bit cumbersome and stilted in their full forms to most people, especially on little boys.

EO, sorry to say that every single Benjamin that we know (and I'd say it's probably the top boys name here, with at least 1 or 2 in each class) is Ben. I think you've found your only solution by making up another nickname for him!

I have a dear friend in her early 30s named Petra (PAY-tra). Her parents named her after a friend from Germany. I think it's a great name you should consider!

I like Petra (pronounced PEH-tra)--I knew a girl called that in high schooll, her parents are Hungarian. It is the feminine of Peter, and I like the meaning--rock. Similarly, I knew a girl called Pernilla, parents were Swedish, that I thought was cute.

I agree that Gentry is a little too aspirational in a not so nice way--it's not a virtue, but a social status, and some might find that distasteful.

I'm not generally a big fan of doubles, but Anna Claire and Anna Jane are nice. I don't care for Mary Samira--if people don't want to bother with 2 or 3 syllable names (those unwanted nns we're talking about), a 5 syllable one is a bit of a mouthful. I know a Mary Beth, and even that gets slurred to "mare-BETH". I also knew a Laura Kate that was always "lor-KATE". Double names generally sound fairly 1950s Catholic to me, which is quaint in its way, but not for me.

Oh, and I know lots of "just" Catherines, Elizabeths, Timothys, Angelas, etc. I figure you have to stick to your guns, but it can be done

Just wanted to weigh in on the strange names you can find. My mom found a man named Green Berry Brown doing some family history for a friend. Also, my daughter is in class with a girl named Canasta.
I don't have anything against nn, as I have always used mine, but I can't stand to have someone try to shorten my son and daughters names-Christian and Katherine. Their longer names fit their personalities and it feels like some people are trying to make them less somehow. Does that make sense?

To J&H's mom:

What sort of neighborhood do you live in? What's the educational and ethnic background of the parents of the small children you run into?

Newly popular names which are revivals of "old-fashioned" names tend to first become popular with highly educated parents, and then, if they get the right kinds of publicity because of that, spread to other segments of the population. Emily "came back" in the USA about 20 years before Emma did. When I was starting to collect name statistics in the early 1980s I was in Michigan, and was able to contrast the naming patterns of Ann Arbor and Detroit. Already around 1983 Emily was very popular in Ann Arbor; college professors were the first people to bring the name back. But 24 years later, Emily has now spread way beyond that demographic.

(continued)

Oh, I love Jane. But I'm a little sad at the comments. It's the name I've always planned to use, and I really don't want it to be a big hit when the time comes. Sigh ;)

Emma is the "replacement" for Emily. Its popularity also began with the highly educated, but it hasn't been back long enough for a lot of other groups to pick it up again yet. This is especially true if you are talking about young girls who are over the age of five and so wouldn't have had parents influenced by the baby on "Friends".

So for elementary school age girls, Emily and Emma should both be common, but the Emmas should be much more concentrated in neighborhoods where most of the parents have college educations than the Emilys are.

I rather like double names. I have a young great grand niece named Grace Anna. I had hoped they would call her GraceAnna which I think has a nice lilt to it, but she is now known as Gracie. (Her great grandmother is Grace).

On the subject of nicknames, I know a Kathryn and a Kathleen - each called Kathy by their close families when young but in adulthood have chosen to be known by their full names. On the other hand I know a Catherine who has insisted on being Kate! Truly a personal choice in the long run.

Kristin Dawn, while I agree that one's name is no small matter, first-impression-wise, I think I approach "avoiding a name that will get you teased" from a different angle. Bear in mind that I am not a mother, just a snot-nosed twentysomething.

Growing up, the ONLY person I remember being teased about his name was a boy named Shu who was on my soccer team, and in that instance his being teased had as much to do with racism and xenophobia as it had to do with what he was called. It was horrible. Does this mean he should have gone by Sean? Here my naivete shows, perhaps: I don't think his name was the problem; indeed, I think the jerks on our soccer team were. Although I would never, ever wish his torment on anyone, I would much rather have a child who respected his or her name and the names of others than the Michaels and Anthonys and Jessicas and Matthews I played with.

Huzzah for world peace, then.

Interesting comments about Emily/Emma. So, referring to a previous poster's question, will Emily sound "dated" eventually since it's used so widely now? Emma? Is Amelia headed that way?

(I'm not going to worry about Jane, not being clairvoyant.) :)

Petra I like, though I wouldn't use it myself (would sound totally out of sync in my Southern family).

Eo, I have a cousin whose son is named Banks! I think it's a surname from the inlaw's family.

There are very few names, especially for girls, that have been used consistently enough over a long enough period of time that they have never sounded "dated". Among the really common names, Elizabeth and Katherine are about the only two that give you no ability to predict the bearer's age when you hear them. Even Sarah is "dated" in the sense that women of Baby Boom age are much less likely to have that name than women older or younger than that generation. I certainly don't expect Emily, Emma, or Amelia to remain as common over the next 50 years as they are now, so it is probable that they will be "dateable" just like almost all girls' names are.

Hannah, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't think name-related teasing is the issue at all. I think it is subconscious psychological judgements that people make without even knowing they are doing it.

I bet we all have a certain gut reaction to Madhycyn Smith, as opposed to a Madeleine Smith. Can you honestly say you wouldn't be more likely to hire one as opposed to the other?

Regarding outright teasing, I agree with you in spirit. I do think that having a cross to bear can be very constructive to one's psyche. And an overly slavish adherence to popularity or normalcy can be harmful as well (including being dangerous to society at large).

My main concern is a child that may already have enough crosses to bear in life for whatever reason, and really doesn't need another reason to be constantly sticking out like a sore thumb.

Also, concerning ethnic names, at least when I was in school (twenty plus years ago) the minority kids were never, ever teased for having unusual names. It was the ordinary, run of the mill kids, whose names were perceived as weird, that were considered strange.

Thinking back to the kids I knew who were really, really unpopular, they virtually always had highly unusual (for the time) names.

Bert
Wes
Virgil
Harold
Leroy
Jerry
Roland
Art
Gene

Corrine
Roberta
Clara
Dorothy
Alydia
Emily (rare at the time)

Were there popular kids who had odd names? Yes, a couple. Were there unpopular kids with normal names? Again, yes, a couple. But I would say 95% of the kids who really struggled with peer ostracism had what I would consider an 'uncool' name.

I like double names a lot. It's very common where I live and people are used to it. I currently know children named: John Cameron (there is that John with a double name), Laura Lilly, Lily Katherine. I also know adults named Mary Emily, Mary Margaret and Ann Henley - all are called by both names.

One last thought I seriously considered a double name for my dd, but ultimately decided that my dh's family (native New Yorkers) would never really go with it. Funny thing is, we decided to call her just by her middle name and that turned out to be a bigger issue for them than I ever expected. :)

Someone asked about Hannah. My husband teaches at a large middle school. This year he says he has at least 2 Hannahs in each of his 5 classes! About 4 years ago, the name was Amanda. The whole school had 27 Amandas.

kristin dawn, that's interesting. In your examples, were the unpopular kids also "different" somehow in a negative way? For me, thinking back, the unpopular kids had fairly common names, but distinguished themselves with poor social graces or unfortunate physical traits. Theses unpopular kids were Annie, Kate, Jesse, Danielle, Elizabeth, Susannah, Hillary, Nicole, Jim, Jason, E.J., Keith....

Alternatively, some very cool kids (and adults) had both normal and very unusual names. Some unusual ones--Astrid, Inga, Maya, Alistair, Simon, Taylor, Aidan (for a girl, 20 years ago), Lily, Petra, Amelie, Natasha, Thistle, Rory, etc. Normal ones--Liz, Hannah(s), Samantha, Rachel, Sarah(s), Tim, Andy(s), Kevin(s), etc.

Really, I think your kid is going to be whoever they are, and the name may accentuate that, but probably won't make the pendulum swing the other direction.

Double names: I think it depends on the name... sometimes it just is too much consider a child who's parents would insist that she be called "Elizabeth Josephine" They are fine names individually, but a mouthful when put together.

But I think they can work in some circumstances...

A friend of mine has a daughter who is called "Emma Faye". They weren't planning to use the middle name, but with two other Emmas at daycare, they decided that "Emma Faye" was better than being "Emma C."

I also went to school with "Jennifer Lynn" and "Jennifer Lee" They both had the last name Johnson so it was the best option for them.

"I bet we all have a certain gut reaction to Madhycyn Smith, as opposed to a Madeleine Smith. Can you honestly say you wouldn't be more likely to hire one as opposed to the other?"

I know I wasn't the one being addressed -- but I honestly expect any intelligent human being who consciously knows they are having an irrational "gut reaction" to monitor themselves against letting that "gut reaction" affect their behavior toward other human beings. If Madhycyn's credentials for the job are equal to Madeline's, she should have just as good a chance of being hired by you no matter how much you detest her name, and if you can't do that, you shouldn't yourself have a position where you are deciding on hiring and firing. A "gut reaction" against someone's skin color is no excuse for not hiring them on that basis. Neither is a "gut reaction" against someone's name an excuse for not hiring them.

Anon, I think Jane is lovely. It is classic and sophisticated, and it's not overly-used these days. For some reason, I like Jane Anne. I know that's kind of an unusual combination b/c of the repetition of the a and n, but I like it.

I love the name Anna, and I like it paired with another name. I think it's a nice alternative to Mary _____. My favorite name (if I had a daughter) is Anna Katharine - Anna Kate. I think it's adorable on a baby and spunky on a little girl but will age well and could even be shortened to Anna or Kate when she's older. I also like Anna Claire. A friend of mine named her daughter this after her mom, who's name is Claire.

I really like all of the traditional names on your list, including Lucy. I think that would be a nice name for Aaron's sister - Aaron and Lucy.

I am glad to hear that Katharine is the oldest spelling of my favorite name b/c that's the way I like it (even though I'm Catherine Kelly LN.)

Anna Catherine with a "c" is nice, too!

Re: the unwanted shortening of names: I think you just have to politely correct people if it's someone who is going to call the child's name a lot. For instnance, I'm Catherine Kelly LN, so when people see my "full" name (like on a credit card) they will say, "Thank you, Catherine." It doesn't matter to me if the salesperson - or receptionist or office assistant - knows that my "real" name is Kelly, so I dont' correct that person. On the other hand, if I'm seeing a new doctor or something that I'm going to keep seeing, I will say, "It's Kelly" when they call me Catherine.

I think in the long run, if you don't want your child to use a nn, just gently correct those who really matter, and they'll use the formal name. That goes for kids who go by two names or a middle name, too.

Because I'm a middle name child and a teacher, I am sensitive to whether or not a child uses the formal name, and I always try to use the nn or middle name from the very beginning if I know it or use the full name if that's the case.

Apolgies for the spelling and punctuation errors in my last post. I'm a stickler for that sort of thing, but I didn't proofread before I hit the post button.

And then apologies for the word "Apolgies" in the apology post...I think I'd better quit posting now...!

Cleveland Kent Evans - I find it extremely unlikely that your personal gut reaction to a person's name (or any other characteristic) would affect your opinion of anyone. But, you seem a highly educated and thoughtful person. Perhaps you have more self-insight than others.

Some comments made by others on this website leads me to believe Madeleine would be better received than Madhycyn.

Of course, though you and I may find it completely objectionable, there are people in our society who do judge others on the basis of skin color, socioeconomic status, religion, etc. Since my child's name is something I can easily control, unlike those other things, I would choose a name that I feel would be well-received by a variety of people of all walks of life.

To be quite honest, gut instinct, I think I'd be more likely to hire Madhycyn. Madeleine sounds like the spoiled offspring of pretentious rich people while Madhycyn may have had a few mountains to climb. Appeals to the egalitarian in me...

Jane is a lovely, classic name, and has the benefit of being somewhat unusual at the moment (though it may make a comeback).

"Plain Jane" is not an expression that's used much anymore, particularly among kids so I wouldn't worry about that.

I think it pairs quite well with a two-syllable W-last name, and would recommend a longer and slightly fancier middle name if you decide not to go with your maiden name as the middle.

Something like:

Jane Cecelia
Jane Cecily
Jane Cassandra (Jane Austen's beloved sister was named Cassandra)
Jane Lucia
Jane Amelia (but then you'd have initials JAW, so not such a good idea)
Jane Miranda
Jane Lydia
Jane Rebecca
Jane

Hyz - The unpopular kids did indeed have a variety of negative personality traits and issues. I am forced to wonder, however, if it is somehow a chicken/egg scenario, i.e., if one is perceived as an outsider from age 5, one is thereby completely unmotivated to try and take on positive characteristics to fit in with your peers.

All young children exhibit undesirable behaviors during the primary years but at some point most decide to take on more socially desirable ones. Why? Because undesirable behaviors are punished while desirable ones are rewarded. If you are being ostracized for things you have no control over - appearance, lack of fancy clothing, or your name - what possible motivation would you have to try and shed behavior that others dislike?

sadhbh: I like both Mary Sadira and your John combos. None of them feels excessively long and I think having the sort of common Mary and John gives the second names reasons to be there, if that makes sense.

The Letter K: I feel like someone has mentioned Bellamy before... In any case, I think it has a nice sound. I immeidately think of Bill Bellamy but that is such an old, weak association that I'm not even sure who he is--an African American actor or singer I think. Maybe VJ?

tiffany: i love the name petra. i think i met a girl from europe with this name. like eastern or northern europe. i don't think petra lillian is too out there. i like kane and petra together too. i can definitely see your style: a bit unusual, but not too out there or difficult. thanks for posting the definition too. i once used this name for a character in a short story to draw similarities to her fears (petrified). i like the "real" definition better.

Another piece of the puzzle that may shed insight is the possibility that parents drawn to names very far off the beaten path, may tend to be somehow odd themselves or unstable - a lot of the names from my childhood seem to be that of an older generation. Maybe they were much older parents with very large families, unable to give their younger children adequate attention, or lived below the poverty level and were unable to provide their kids with proper clothing, food, etc. It may even be that a lack of education and limited life experience may have contributed to the situation - you can't give your child a name you've never heard of if you are unaware of popular naming trends.

It's amazing how complicated something as simple as a name can be! Issues of history, psychology, geography, culture, all are part of the equation.

kristin dawn,
I definitely hear what you're saying, and of course that's the fear/concern, but in my very anecdotal experience, it (happily) doesn't seem to work that way. And as for being thought of as "an outsider from age 5"--I'm not sure that such young kids even have enough experience to know whose name is weird and whose isn't. My neighbor's 4 year old can remember and pronounce my DH's very unusual Korean name much better than 99% of adults--it's just not unusual to her, she doesn't know any better. Similarly, we had kids in class with foreign and unusual names when I was a kid (Ahti, Preetha, Sybil, Siobhan, Vonda, Remy, Laywan, etc.) and not a one of them ever got made fun of or ostracized for it. Some were popular, some were loners, some were loud and bossy, but I think it was the kid rather than the name.

Just food for thought--I've worried about this too because I like interesting names, but in thinking about it more concretely, it just doesn't seem to be a real cause for concern.

kristin dawn--looks like we were posting at the same time! I definitely think there's something to what you're saying about the parents. Not that all "cool" parents have "cool" kids or anything like that of course, but there's no doubt that upbringing will have a lot to do with whether kids develop successful social graces or not. Interesting, too, that so many of the "odd" names on your list are of an old and stodgy sort--that could relate to the parents for sure!

Re: nicknames
I was strictly Katie growing up, though the odd person called me Kate. I liked when some people did it, but not others. I decided to "switch" to Kathleen in college, and have almost never been nicknamed against my will. One roommate calls me Kath a lot, which I minded until I realized that she's one of those compulsive nicknamers who can't be stopped, and then I got over it. I never liked Kath or Kathy at all, but another compulsive nicknamer I know called me Kathy, and because that was in a closed environment (a class I take) where no one had the opportunity to hear that other people only ever call me Kathleen, so I ended up with a whole group of people who refer to me as Kathy as much as they do as Kathleen. It bothered me at first, but I've come to like the phenomenon of having different names for different places. Obviously, I've never been the kind of person who corrected people who called her Kate or Kathy, even when I didn't like it, so maybe my feelings weren't too strong to begin with.

Kristin Dawn - Well certainly you're not the only person whose carefully thought out gut reaction is to magnanimously give chances to those poor children who obviously had a lot to overcome. So wouldn't it be good to give your kid a "bad" name and give them an edge with people such as you? Or are you part of an infintesimal minority?

I know a girl who goes by Alexandria--no nn at all--and three or so just Elizabeths, so I was hoping maybe Mary Sadira wouldn't be too long...although I would be okay with calling her just Mary, just Sadira, or possibly Mira for short....

And I agree that really young kids don't differentiate as easily between unusual names and common ones...and when they do, it's usually very matter-of-fact, no "I guess Anne and Otto's parents are better-educated than Ashleigh and Jaydin's"....

I really like John Walter! A timeless combo, in my opinion. Double names aren't very common where I live... I wonder why? (I'm in Florida.)

Petra is pretty. I prefer the pronunciation PAYtra.

I think it's a pity there's no way to track the popularity of double names. My hunch is the use of double names is currently on an upswing. Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence to support/refute this? Personally I like them, and I agree with the pp's "Redneck Rule" (John Walter vs Jack Wally).

Cleveland Kent Evans-We live in a very typical middle-class suburb. My close friends tilt towards Sophies and Ellies, but the Emmas I'm meeting at the Y, the playground, and so forth seem to be from a pretty broad cross section of folks. If I had to guess (and I apologize to all for the way this will sound), I'd say most are on the lower end of middle class.
The puzzle to me is who is using Emily. I know scads of teenage Emilys, but I hadn't met any baby Emilys until recently when I ran into one at a friend's shower. She had a sister named Laura, and I sort of fell in love with both names all over again.
I'm wondering if it's possible that Emily could be on its way out with one demographic and on its way back in with another. Has a name ever fallen out of favor and back in that rapidly?
I'm not sure that all made sense, but if anyone can decipher it, you can!