The Baby Name Wizard

amen, amen.

sometimes, when one is full-grown, the cutesie name really does feel limiting. as a Bonnie, with no long form for resumes, i've always felt like my name lacked gravitas.

it doesn't mean i do, or that i've been horribly harmed by having a nn-style name. but i'd prefer to have been Bonita or Bronwen or something else, even if i'd been called Bon/Bonnie every day of my life.

I agree Laura - My husband and I loved the name Georgie, but named our daughter Georgiana in case she wanted to go by something more formal later in life. We call her both Georgie and Georgiana. I like the flexiblity.

Another voice of agreement here. My sister, Wendy's name always sounded like a nickname to her--she wanted to have a "bigger" name to fall back on like Gwendolyn or the creative, Wendolyn.

I knew a birth-certificate Libby who went by Elizabeth for a while. I think she's come to appreciate her name over time, but I imagine it was rough going for a while. Then again, there's a whole generation of Stacy/Stacies out there who would never have been happy as Anastasias.

"Then again, there's a whole generation of Stacy/Stacies out there who would never have been happy as Anastasias."

FWIW, I don't believe Stacy is a nickname per se, it's an independent modern name that became popular on the model of Tracy.

Yes, yes, yes! I've always felt that naming a child a nickname (or shouldn't that be diminutive?) is limiting. I know a couple of adult Katies whom I believe have ended up with a 'cute' persona. I wonder if they were called Kate or Katharine they might even feel differently about themselves!

This is the perfect time to settle a minor debate between my husband and me. Has Lucy always been a full name on its own, or did it start out as a short form or nickname (of Lucia or something like that)?

And I agree, I like full names on birth certificates. Instead of finding one that goes with a nn I like, though, I'd rather choose a full name that I like from the get-go.

Lucy has often been used as a nickname for Lucinda, but I think I'm right in saying that Lucinda is actually a more recent name: so Lucinda is an amplification of Lucy rather than Lucy being a diminutive of Lucinda.

There was a St Lucy, I believe - and in that context, I think Lucy comes from the Latin lux, meaning "light". Of course, Lux has also been used (less commonly) as a given name - like the girl in The Virgin Suicides.

Lucy is also a relatively old surname, and has been used as both a girls' and boys' given name as a result (e.g. when boys are given their mother's maiden surname as a first or middle name). It is obviously much more commonly used for girls now, though.

I always thought Lucy was a nn for Lucille...think Lucille Ball/I Love Lucy.

Yes, exactly!

I'm halfway through pregnancy with my second, and as we've considered names, flexibility and potential nicknames have been important. A name like Jefferson, for instance (wasn't ever on our list, but as an example) might be nice, but as my husband put it, "the Jeffs I've known have been boring." I'm hopeful that we will love the name we've picked (at least at this point, subject to change before baby!) will work for our little guy in many life circumstances!

AMEN!

Valerie - I think of Kate as a nickname also, not as the full/long form of Katie. This was an issue when we were naming our daughter - we loved Kate, but didn't like Katharine or Kathleen or Caitlin or any of the other extended dance mix versions of the name. So we named her something entirely different that didn't have the nickname issue!

I didn't mean to imply that Kate is the fill name, just that if these women were named Katharine they would have choices about nicknames, like Kate, that sound more adult to me.

I liked what Laura said about 'Marty' Scorsese. I'm a classical musician and we always tend to use full names on programs, etc, but I've noticed that jazz is completely the opposite- lots of Bills, Daves, etc. I think it's to emphasize a laid-back-type persona.

I love this topic! My family are great nicknamers--sometimes they have to do with the full name, and might not have anything to do with the name, but everyone has one. My dh's family (MIL) is just the opposite-she thinks people should be named what you plan to call them, no matter what. Both of her kids were named what I consider nicknames (think Joe not Joseph, or Jen not Jennifer). When ds was born, we named him William with the plan on calling him Will. She asked if we were going to call him Bill and I told her no. Before I could go on she just huffed & said "I'm glad your not one of those to butcher names". Needless to say, Will didn't go over so well. My MIL will even refuse to call people what they ask to be called because it's "not really their name". DH has an old school friend Mike, who MIL insists on calling Michael even though he hates it! Can you tell this really bothers me? LOL. Enough with the rant-on the Kate issue, my great granmother was named Sarah, but her BIL didn't think she cont..

...didn't think she looked like a Sarah & jokingly called her Kate. For whatever reason it caught on & she went by Kate the rest of her life-Kate is even what was put on her tombstone and I have a cousin who was named Katherine in honor of our great-grandmother "Sarah".

Louise, The story about your mother-in-law confuses me. If she likes "real names" (like Michael instead of Mike) so much, why did she name her children things that have traditionally been used as nicknames? Or is it just that she thinks people ought not to have nicknames at all? She's fighting a losing battle there! Even kids named Abby will become Ab or Abs (horrors!) at some point.

As a naming fanatic, I wholeheartedly support you on this one, Laura! I prefer the longer forms of the names simply because the nicknames allow us to sneak in more names, and who could be opposed to that? (Other than Louise's mother-in-law!)

I have been called Jessi my whole life by my parents, never have they udder the name Jessica. But Jessica looks good on a resume and reads more like an adult.
Another Example When I gave birth to my son the DR. called me Jessica but my Husband and my Mum called me Jessi and there is a comforting and endearing quality there, like Laura said "as a mark of intimacy or long-standing relationships" I Totally agree!

I am always a little surprised when parents get particular about a nickname (full name) when ultimately, it is the child's name. My son is Timothy (Tim) and my husband and I swore we'd never call him Timmy. (Too cutesy for us).

So at 18 months, my son of course started calling himself Timmy. Hopefully, as an adult, he'll go by Tim or Timothy, but if not, he's the one to worry about it.

To Heather:
Lucy is the original English form of the Latin name Lucia, which was the original name of the saint. It was not at first a nickname for anything, but the English language equivalent of Lucia. Lucille came into English much later than Lucy; it is the French form of Lucilla, which was a Latin diminutive of Lucia. So Lucy was NOT originally a pet form of Lucille; it would be more correct to call Lucille a pet form of Lucy. Lucinda, meanwhile, is an expansion of Lucy which was created in the 17th century.

Note that the majority of examples of children given pet forms as official names are girls. There certainly is a tradition in the South of putting forms like Billy and Bobby on boys' birth certificates, but this almost never happens in the Northern USA. Northerners, however, are just as or even a bit more likely to put forms like Katie on a girl's birth certificate.

There are so many Americans who think that a good name for a boy must be an at least two-syllable form which yields a one-syllable version that will actually be used to refer to him by in everyday life that it's resulted in the creation of some names. I think the reason we have so many boys named after the capital city of New Jersey in the USA now is that there were lots of parents who wanted to call a son "Trent" but just didn't feel comfortable putting a one-syllable name on the birth certificate, so expanded that to Trenton. Kylan is probably a similar "expanded" version of Kyle.

Yup, I'm another one--like Bonnie, it's not like it's been the central tragedy of my existence, but having a nickname on my birth certificate isn't something I would've chosen for myself. I like the name, but there are definitely times when I'd like to have the formal alternative (Penelope). And I gave my kids formal names, knowing I'd be calling them by nicknames. (My daughter uses either/or, as she sees fit.)

O a subject near to my heart! My mom had an extreme adversion to Jess or Jessi. I spent most of my growing up years warding off those who wanted to call me such. Hence, I would like to add a note to Laura's post. "Think long and hard if you really like the name but abhor the nn. Life inevitably happens. Do you or do you not want to deal with it?"
I am trying quite hard to convince my friend to not name her baby Fred. But she hates the name Frederick or any fomr thereof. Any suggestions? (her first son is Zachary - not Zach)

Other names that can be nicked as Lucy are Lucina (Roman goddess of childbirth!), Lucine, Luciana, Lucretia, even Louise and Louisa.

For Fred--any chance of Alfred? It's not just the butler on Batman--kings and poets have used the name with style!

I am definitely in the camp of formal names on birth certificates. That gives the child much more flexibility.

There are lots of names that stand on their own as well as act as nicknames, like the name Jack. I don't think people are naming their boys John and using the nickname Jack so much as just naming the child Jack.

When I grew up, I had friends named Beth, Lisa, and Kate. All three of them were just named those names - they are not short for Elizabeth or Katherine. I always found it odd, but, of course, those nicknames can stand on their own, too.

The Zachary and Fred siblings remind me of Laura's post about sibling names that don't match!

I don't have any advice for your friend, Jessica, but I would definitely pick Frederick myself (love the name, but it almost rhymes with my last name so we wouldn't even consider it).

Does she plan to call him Fred? What a funny name for a little boy. I think of Mr. Rogers. Or Freddy? I think of Krueger. But Frederick is darling!

So, is Libby now a popular nickname for Elizabeth (I realize it has been in existance as a nickname for a long time, but it wasn't used often by Elizabeths I knew growing up - I am now 30)? I like it - and I like Eliza and figure that is way too popular/common right now - as a nickname for Elizabeth, but never want to put something too popular on a kid (it seems - trendwise - Libby would be popular right now, so that is not surprising). What about Betsey? Is that also popular now?

No, I am not pregnant, but am obsessed with names - and Elizabeth is a family name on both sides, so there is a good chance a girl might end up with it.

Agreed.

My full name is Angela, but I often go by Aiea (which derived from Angela... long story). My brother Josef goes by Joey/Joe/Jooj/Booj/Squish/Roo depending on the situation.

A good friend of mine, legally-named Kate, HATES that she doesn't have a more formal name. To rebel, she started asking people to call her Katherine in middle school, and then began using "Katie" as a nickname, which she said was short for Katherine (not Kate...). She's in medical school now, and I think she's still doing it.

Oh did we agonize over this very subject. Our issue was more complicated than "love the name/hate the nickname." Our son is named Charles, after a Charlotte; we call him Charlie. We are sort of indifferent about the formal name (Charles), love one nickname (Charlie) and hate one nickname (Chuck). Of course, our BIL insists on saying "how's Chuck" everytime we speak to him. I never told him I didn't like Chuck; I guess he assumed.

So, for our 2nd son, we went with one of those on the "no nickname" list; Owen. BIL still found a way to be "funny" -- he always says "your going to be "owing" a lot of $ for Owen."

I think you can't win. I like the concept that you give the formal name and then the kid can choose later in life.

I know an Elizabeth who was always called Beth until she went to college and introduced herself to everyone as Elizabeth. Another friend decided late in life that Betty sounded too old, so she also switched to Elizabeth.
My daughter's friends would switch back and forth periodically and looked at me funny if I called them Melissa and Jennifer when they were in a Missy and Jenny phase or vice versa. It is nice to have options, isn't it?

And hey, if you don't have a seldom-used formal name, how will you know when your mom is really mad at you? ;)

Thanks, Ms. Wattenberg, great piece as usual. Can't imagine why the formal name on the birth certificate wouldn't be an advantage. You can nickname to your heart's delight in real life, but always have the more serious moniker when circumstances merit it.

I too adored hearing my mother, Katherine, referred to by my Dad and other relatives as "Kitty", a nickname I assume she was given by her late-Victorian parents. When my Dad called her "Kit", I knew he was going to be especially playful and affectionate. Warm fuzzies...

Would seriously consider naming a boy "Edward" to get to my favorite nickname of all time, "Ned".

I'm at the age (33) where I have a lot of friends having kids, and I always advise them not to give their kids names that sound like nicknames but don't have formal names to go with them - like Bonnie (first post) or Stacey. I would love to have the option to have a more formal-sounding name, but as another poster notes, Stacey's become a stand-alone, even if it doesn't sound like one. Names like this are pretty much the worst of both worlds - you're always called by a diminutive-sounding name, and there's no clear option for formalizing even if you wanted to fake it like the Kate/Katherine described above.

I'm a Lisa who was almost named Elizabeth. Oh, how I wish my parents had given me a whole timeless name instead of a couple dated syllables!

I don't consider Molly, Jack , Eliza or Drew to be stand alone names. Please name your children Mary, John, Elizabeth and Andrew instead!

Stacy is definitely a derivative of Anastacia.

Stacey, Bonnie, and others--what is it to you that makes a name "formal sounding"? Is it just the y/ie ending that makes it sound informal? If so, do traditionally full -y names like Lucy, Mary, Tansy, Poppy, Ivy, etc. sound informal to you? Is it also the length/# of syllables? I ask because Ivy tops my girls list right now, and I'm wondering if a future Ivy would have the same feeling about her name as you describe.

I agree with Laura's post too. I don't usually go for nns in general, and I can't imagine naming a kid Mike or Sue. I go even further and feel generally uncomfortable with 1 syllable names, as Cleveland Kent Evans was describing--they just seem too curt, not enough. DH and I like the name Fern a lot, but I don't think we'd use it because of that.

I go another step further and tend to prefer names with no obvious nn--it's hard enough to come up with ONE name we love, much less a name AND nn pair we love.

Ivy clearly escapes the cutesy nickname problem, because it's not a diminutive of anything (there's no name "Ive.") Plus, ivy is an actual word that includes the "y" syllable.

I hope you don't give up on Fern! What a great, underused and beautifully simple name. But then, I love single syllables, if they're good syllables: Fern, Rose, Anne, Paul, John.

I agree that Ivy wouldn't ever seem like a nickname, and I hope you go for it! It happen's to be one of our top three choices for a future girl, but I think I'm shying away from it for various personal reasons.

On Fred: I'd second Alfred, add Wilfred, and try pushing Frederick one more time. Although it's probably in the category of too-outdated-to-be-cool-yet, the main selling point of Wilfred, for me, would be the nn. possibility of Will. I guess it sounds like your friend might not want another nn. possibility, but Fred really doesn't do it for me, and I would think there's some chance that at some point in his life, baby Fred might prefer Will/Eric/Derick/Derek/Alfie/Al/Alf/Fritz. I wonder if you could sell her on a surname-y name instead: Fredson, Freddison,... I don't particularly like those, but I still think they'd be better than just Fred. Maybe a surname with nn. Fritz? Fitzgerald could reasonably become Fritz, or even Fred. Fitzhugh?

"Fitzhugh" -- oh, Darcy! -lol
I think I'd go with Frederick if I were after Fred for a nn, though there's nothing really wrong with Alfred, it's just not my thing.

I don't think Ivy sounds like a nickname, ditto Lily, because they are words on their own. But do they sound slightly diminutive because of the Y ending? I don't know, that concerns me a little with Lucy too (which I need to quit thinking about because DH has already said no, though it is a great name and he is wrong (grin)... but I digress). I think these names are just fine and that I am being hypersensitive because I'm trying to find a girl name too, and for some reason I am stuck on choosing something "serious." Honestly though, I have gone through life with half of my name being a diminutive, and I have no trouble being taken seriously as a professional. Maybe it's the Anne at the end. :)

Longtime lurker here, but I can't resist sharing with you how my uncle got his nickname. When he was born, my grandmother wanted to name him Calvin, and my grandfather wanted to name him Pete. Calvin went on the birth certificate, but my grandfather simply disregarded this and continued to call him Pete, as did his older (and eventually younger) siblings, so Pete it was. To the best of my knowledge, only telemarketers now call him Calvin. The best part is that his wife now calls him Peter "for long."

OK, off topic, but HAD to share with you guys. Back to the topic of names harmonizing with each other. Just read an article about Jerry Seinfeld, and his three kids are called Sascha, Julian and Shepherd. I.e. 1)Russian diminutive of Alexander, 2)English creative, sensitive type and 3)uber-cool surname-as first-name modern kid. Interesting! Or is Sascha a girl?? I've seen the spelling Sasha for a girl.

Also came across the name L'Wren. Yikes!

Oh gosh, a whole bunch of comments...
I knew a boy called Ivy in high school--it was short for Ivanhoe.
hyz--re one-syllable lns--there are cases where they really are the best choice. My son-in-law was almost Christopher Verylongitalianlastname. Apparently his father left the hospital and then phoned his mother, saying, "We've got to find another name. I just wrote the whole name out, and he'll be in college before he can spell it!" So he's Scott. I've commented on how smart his parents were to give him and his brother one-syllable names.
My brother is a case in reverse: always went by his full name as a kid, but as an adult opted for the nn. So most of the family call him by the full name, but his wife and newer friends use the nn.
My 5-mo old grandson is Samuel--full name most of the time, Sam or Sammy sometimes; his big sister has come up w/ Sam-sam; I occasionally use Shmuel and Sam-I-Am gets in there once in a while.
I can certainly understand using normal nns; what I really don't get is
(cont.)

Thanks, guys. I think Ivy could be either serious or spunky, depending on the person, so I wasn't really worried about it being too short and cute until the complaints above (after all, there's no "Stace" or "Bon", either :). Liz, I like your list of one syllables, and I might personally add June and Reed--but maybe my aversion to actually using them is because our lns are only one syllable? I'd even prefer 3 syllables to 2 with our lns, but DH and I couldn't agree on any 3 syllable names.

Fred doesn't do it for me, either, but I think Frederick is pretty nice. I think there are a number of rarer Old English (and other) names ending in -fred, like Alfred. Winfred, Manfred, Wilfred, Walfred, Ulfred, Lefred, Ingfred.... I also know a guy with the given name Fritz, named after his father Fred (his dad insisted on being the namesake, his mom hated the name Fred).

I can certainly understand using normal nns; what I really don't get is "We're naming him John, but we'll call him Ray, for Uncle Raymond." Why not just use Raymond in the first place???
(Just read Bea Dee's post about Calvin called Pete. I also know of a Howard, who was always called Pete. Don't know how that came about.)

I know a Ted and a Larry, both certificate names. Both have had problems w/ people not believing those were their real names.
Also a Bronnie, named after an ancestor with some Yiddish names her parents didn't want to use, who always had similar problems...people insisted it had to be a nn for something.
And I had a student named Rebbie, because her parents didn't like Rebecca. When I knew her she was in 6th grade, but my guess is that as she grew up she would have preferred having the more formal option.

Arlene, looks like I was posting at the same time as you--yes, the last name is part of the issue!

I also agree on the unrelated nns. Sort of a similar thing--I recently found out a guy I know is sort of a nn mess. I always thought his official name was Frank Jay Lastname (that's what's on business documents, etc.), goes by Jay. But I just saw his diploma, turns out his name is Francis James Lastname--I guess he hated his fn so much he felt the need to nick it, even though he goes by a nn of his middle name! That has to get a bit confusing at times.

Valerie, Sascha Seinfeld is indeed a girl. I like the name--more as a nickname for "Alexander/Alexandra" than on its own--but I've never understood why some people spell it with that superfluous "c." Drives me nuts, and I always want to grab the letter and fling it out of the name. (Interesting, too, because, in Russian there are two "sh" sounds, one of which is usually transliterated as "sch" and is practically impossible for an English speaker to pronounce...but the actual Russian nickname doesn't use this character, as far as I know.)

Anyway, I've always thought that Sascha, Julian, and Shepherd were weirdly incongruous too. At first glance they seem like they go together, but then you look again and you're like...nope.

Sascha would be better if it was a nickname for Alexandra and if it was spelled correctly.

Julian is a great name.

Shepherd is awful. Simply awful. The poor child.

Shepherd Seinfeld just doesn't work phonetically for me. Makes me want to say Shepherd Sheinfeld. Which also is a last name, incidentally. Or perhaps Sepherd Seinfeld, though that one doesn't have the benefit of being an actual name, to my knowledge.

I actually toyed with using Shepard for Henry. I'm glad I didn't, but I still like it, and I think Shep would be a darling nn. I agree that it's not fabulous with Seinfeld, though.
I do agree with Laura on this topic, although I also agree with her that Jack and others can stand-alone (I have a "just Jack," myself).
As I'm sure most regulars to this board know, "just Jack," has been a popular name for hundreds of years. Of course, that doesn't prove anything, but it's not a modern affectation.
It is sort of too bad that you can't do the reverse of "short-for."
I absolutely adore the name Charlie, but for some reason I have this total aversion to Charles. It wouldn't work with our ln anyway, but I was thinking the other day about whether you could use Chaz as a formal name with Charlie as the nn. Probably not....
There must be some nns that are actually longer than the formal name, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.
Anyone?

PS-Momtochuck, I didn't mean to offend with my Charles comment. My typing got faster than my brain for a minute.

I bet L'wren was given that name so she could be nicknamed Wren.

Awww, I like Shepherd. It didn't make my long list, so I guess I don't like it *that* much :), but I find it very appealing. It could have a religious connotation, and to me it clearly has a nice agrarian connotation (pastoral, quaint, sweet, peaceful, natural, antiquated), and I even like German Shepherds. It's a nice alternative to the more violent profession names like Hunter, Archer, Gunner, etc., and seems like a more attractive occupation to me than somthing like Taylor. Plus it has the soft and aspirated sounds I like. Hmmm... I might've talked myself into putting it on the list.... :) If anything, with the nn Shep (which is very cute, don't get me wrong), it might come off as a little too masculine for my tastes somehow....

Yeah, I have uncles who have Larry and Jerry on their birth certificates--not any formal versions. And I didn't even know my own grandmother's real first name until I saw it on the tombstone years after she died--I'm sure I never heard it used by any of her relatives, who called her a completely different name (for reasons unknown).

The problem with the nickname versus formal name dichotomy proposed by Laura is that many common names fall into a gray middle area. Laura picked easy names as examples. Everyone agrees that "JoJo" is a childhood nickname while "Joseph" is the standard formal version. I doubt "JoJo" is a separate entry in any baby name book. But there are lots of other names that people would disagree on whether it is just a nickname or really a stand-alone formal name. What do we think of Tessa, Liam, Sadie, Greta, Tina, Carly, Lola or Sasha? Nicknames or formal names? Diminutives or variants? How do we decide when a nickname has become a stand-alone name? Opinions vary.

The real debate is not who likes formal names and who likes nicknames. It is which names are formal names and which names are nicknames. Those who name their daughters Tessa, Lucy & Kate are probably not saying "I come down on the nickname side of Laura's fence." They are more likely saying "Tessa(etc.) is now a stand-alone name, not a nickname."

J&H's mom--a quick one that comes to mind is John, nn Johnny "for short". :) Also Mary nn Maisie. German, French, and other names also follow this pattern, although some of the nns are now also stand-alones (Greta nn Gretchen, Fleur nn Fleurette).

Don't forget that Shepherd is another character (sur)name from "Lost," along with Desmond, Sawyer, Penelope, Juliet, Naomi, Hugo... so it could get a little bump from that. And it's one of those names that can have religious significance, without being too obvious a reference--those seem to be in demand too.

(Oh, I just realized one baddie character on Lost is called Benjamin Linus--there's a more recent pop culture Linus than the Peanuts character, from the last thread.)

All the men I've known personally with Shepherd as a first name have been Jewish. I guess I've always assumed that Jewish parents were attracted to it because they associated it with "Sephardim". But perhaps that's not true.

Many Spanish names have longer nicknames: Pablo is Pablito, Elena is Elenita, etc.

My brother's name is Donald but all his life he has preferred to be Don, including his signature, business card and all. I have a nephew of the same name, known by his full name within the family but Don at work and socially outside of the family. Short forms of longer names are pretty logical for informal use and IMO different from nicknames which vary considerably from the original formal name. In either case they are usually used in affectionate and intimate situations and I agree that a formal name ought to be on the birth certificate for options later on.

In a different circumstance (I have mentioned this previously), when naming our sons, we picked simple names that could *never be messed up*, as it were -Mark and Gregory (simple short form, Greg). Granted, both kids were tiny, blonde and blue-eyed, but the hackles on my neck went up when I discovered that their teachers were calling them Markie and Greggie! However, a simple directive solved it and the diminutives did not stick with their peers!

Quick note:
-chen is a diminutive suffix in German (think Maedchen, from Maedl), so Gretchen is the nn for Greta, not the other way around.

Also, interestingly, Jack isn't "short" for John, and Chuck isn't particularly "short" for Charles. They're all one syllable. I never understood the mania for nn-ing, and it irritates me when people do it to my DH, who has a two syllable Korean name, let's just say Joon-hee. People who go by names like Megan or Destry or Allison or Jennifer will say, that's too long, do you go by Joon? No. First of all, Jen-ni-fer, it's shorter than your name, which you seem to be perfectly satisfied to go by. Second of all, if he went by Joon, wouldn't he introduce himself as such? I think it's presumptuous, and it's unfortunate that some people don't use names they love because others are so rude that they would insist upon calling a child or adult something other than what that person would prefer. It's not like 2 or 3 syllables are such a burden to string together....

Regarding Shepherd being used by Jewish parents, I don't know any Shepherds, but I thought it would be used by Christian parents because Jesus is often thought of as the Great Shepherd. Also, he told his followers to take care of his sheep.

I've tried to wait before hijacking, but I'm going to burst: It's a girl!

A while back I got useful comments about "Renee." Now I'm considering "Helen," and would again like to hear people's reactions.

Is Helen poised to become trendy? Why, given current trends (Isabella, Hannah, etc.) hasn't it already? Is there something keeping it off the popular list? Or has it just somehow managed to stay under the radar so far?

And will it eventually *sound* like a dated, early 21st century name, because it fits the mold, even if it itself never becomes popular? (Sheesh, I'm so glad I have you people to obssess to.)

I'm considering Helen because it's a family name, so I'm not considering things that sound close like "Elaine" or whatever.

The full name would be "Helen Rajani Wilson."

And just to show I'm paying attention, here's a quirky nick-name story. My uncle was named after his father, and was called "J. Ray" to distinguish him from the elder Ray. J. Ray became Jerry, and he's been called that his whole life, even though it's not related to his given name.

As a Meg/Margaret, I've always found it useful to have a formal name that's different from what I use in daily life. As a little kid, I was surprised to discover not everyone followed this pattern. That there were kids named Linda, for example, who were both "called" Linda and also "really" Linda.

Helen Rajani Wilson sounds great - realy stylish and unusual, yet recognisable. I feel like Helena is more likely to become trendy, but Helen is easier to pronounce. It's a bit like Jean - not trendy, unexected, grandmothery yet cool. Much better than Renee.

On nicknames - my sister is Deborah, never Debbie, yet people would insist on calling her Debbie - we never knew who they were talking about. In the Uk now so many nickames are used as given names - Archie, Alfie, Ellie etc - I find it strange, like people don't think their child is going to grow up.

Meg -- I really like Helen, but I can't look at it objectively since I know a little Helen and she is adorable. :) I think it was a family name for them as well. I have not met any other young Helens. I am not clairvoyant enough to know if it'll become trendy eventually, but I think for now it fits very well with the names that *are* being used a lot. If it turns out to be more popular in the coming years, you can at least say that you were ahead of the curve. :)

Does Joss sound like a nickname? Of what name?

Also, LOVE Helen Rajani Wilson and am not so much a fan of Renee.

Congratulations, Meg! Helen Wilson and Helen Rajani Wilson both sound great. I think Helen will probably become a bit more popular in the coming years, but I doubt it would become an Ella or Ava. Either way, it's a lovely name, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. I don't know if you're thinking about using a nickname, but I love Nell.

Joss does sound like a nn. to me. My first thought would be Jocelyn, then I'd move to Josephine.

Meg, congratulations!!!

I like Helen a lot, and I think the whole name sounds great. I'm also not so much a fan of Renee. I only know one Helen that I can think of, and she's about 47, and has always hated her name because it sounded "like an old lady" to her. She says she wishes she had a "nice" name, like "Linda or Kathy or Barbara or Sue". :) To me, those sound like frumpy names, and Helen sounds cool! I told her so, but she wasn't convinced. :)

I love Helen! It is the name of a dear friend who is in her 30s. Even when I met her in college it never sounded old to me. I don't think she got that reaction until she married and it somehow aged with her husband's last name (her maiden name sounds youthful).

Regarding nns. First, I also have to get off the fence. I don't understand naming a child a nn. Frankly even one that has crossed over to a common name (e.g. Jack). As someone who always had options I loved being Katie when I was tiny, Cat for most of my childhood, Kate for college, and now just Catherine (bwt not sure why my family/me have always turned to K for Kate/Katie).

In terms of fun nns. I knew someone in college named Joseph Toby ln. Apparently his mother loved Toby but his father wouldn't name him that. So he immediately became Joby. It was a great name but he had the option of Joseph for applications/resumes.

Hey, Meg, my daughter is Helen. Like for you, it's a family name--but you'll find that nearly everyone had a great-grandma named Helen! (No really, it was like #2 in popularity in 1910.)

Our daughter (a second-grader) uses the nickname Nell, just like my great-grandma did. That confuses some people, but I just say "well, I can't call her Hell!" And then they see the truth of that.

The full name you've got planned is gorgeous--go for it. You'll find that it's a name that's comfortable across many cultures and languages, it has a lovely meaning ("light"), and it hardly ever gets misspelled (although sometimes people do mis-hear it as "Ellen"). And there are loads of good historical antecedents who carried the name well.

One of the older Helens told me that she was teased with "Helen Helen Watermelon" as a girl. But I'm thinking, wow, if that's the worst they can come up with, we'll be fine.

Some thoughts...

Maybe Joss could also be a nn for Josiah?

Joss Ackland, the actor, was Sidney Edmond Jocelyn Ackland.

Greta is short for Margarethe in German, as far as I know. Gretchen is an alternative diminutive.

My father John was known as Jackie as a kid- that's a longer nn. Sounds very girly to me... but then I remembered Jackie Chan. I don't think anyone would have dared call him girly to his face!

Keren-love what you said about Archie, Alfie and the like. They sounds great on under-fives but may sound puerile on adults. Or maybe we'll just get used to them. Jonathan Ross's kid Betty Kitten and Jamie Oliver's Poppy Honey and Daisy Boo stand out to me as What Not to Do in that respect....yikes!

Elizabeth T-at least I'm not the only one who doesn't understand my MIL. I think her feelings are that whatever you are going to call your kid should be on the birth certificate. If you want to call him Mike, then name him Mike. If you name him Michael then it's somehow wrong to her to call him Mike--even if that's what he prefers. As for her own kids, I've always wondered why she didn't just give them generally nickname proof names instead of actual nicknames. Scott instead of "Joe" or Stacy instead of "Jen".
hyz-I love your statement! "I think it's presumptuous, and it's unfortunate that some people don't use names they love because others are so rude that they would insist upon calling a child or adult something other than what that person would prefer" You summed it up exactly. Now hopefully you'll never meet my MIL!
Lulu-your comment was funny to me. I've always thought middle names were how you tell if your mother is really mad!
Oh-and I love Helen!

J&H's mom - don't worry. We seriously considered not using Charles because we didn't love it and it was in the top 100 (wanted a name a little more unique, but not too unique!). Is it charles (1 syl) or char-rels (2 syl)? But we loved Charlie and needed a C name. Now, I find that Charles has actually grown on me. I think that can happen as your feelings about a name can change as you get to know a person with that name.

I had an Aunt Helen. Her real name was Ellen Gertrude but she preferred Helen. Never knew at what age she asserted her preference. Mind you, I like Ellen but can't say I like Gertrude!

MomtoChuck--I've always said it (and heard it) as Charles (1 syl, rhymes with Karl's). I have two uncles, two cousins, and a grandfather named Charles, and that's how they say/said it--and I just finished watching an episode of Little House on the Prairie, and I hear Charles there too. :D It's a rather drawn out syllable, but still just 1, I think. I love the name, but actually wouldn't use it because of so much family connection (not all positive).

Valerie--good point about Margarethe/Greta--I forgot about that! Gretel is in the same family--I wonder if that will ever make a comeback.... :)

Thanks, Louise. :) Your MIL might like me--I go by exactly what it says on my birth certificate! lol

Meg, Helen is darling. I have a hard time liking Renee personally. But Helen is sounding bright and fresh to me. Congrats!! :)

My observation on nn is it is not a matter of shortening a name as much as _softening_ it. George vs Georgie, Pablo vs Pablito, Mary vs Molly, Greta vs Gretchen, Charles vs Charlie

Oh, Meg! Congratulations! Is this your first? I love Helen, and I don't think it's poised to become too trendy, besides-it's a classic.
Of course, if you decide this early, it's less fun for us!

I think Tirzah hit it on the head about the whole nn issue, and of course, like practically everything else related to naming, it's subjective. My boys' names demonstrate my own irrational feelings on the subject, since I have a "just Jack," and a Henry who is also called Hank.
We used Jack partly because my husband is a Jonathan, but he didn't want his son to be a junior, and using John would have been odd. I like that they have that shared connection, though.
Mainly, though, I just don't think of Jack as a nn.
Does anyone else want to admit to placing names in the nickname or formal name category in a purely random way?
For example,I like Lucy, Greta, and Liam fine on their own, but I prefer Kate and Daisy and Will as nns.
Logical? Not really.... Anyone else want to confess?

After reading this article I actually ran into my friend Jessie (full name Jessie, not short for Jessica). I asked her why her parents gave her the name they did and she said that she's named after her grandfather Jesse. I'm normally not a fan of the nicknames as given names thing, but I thought this was a cute story with an actual meaning behind the name (as opposed to "we thought it sounded better")

Another example: I know someone named Tina whose parents are Chinese. They picked Tina because it's an English name that's easy for the family to say (as opposed to a full version like Christina which would be harder for them to pronounce)

Regarding spellings of Sasha: as far as I know, Sasha is Russian, Sacha is French, and Sascha is German.

I personally prefer nicknames that emerge 'naturally' for want of a better word. Of course I'd take potential nicknames into account when naming a child, for example I wouldn't use a name that has a nn I can't stand. On the other hand like someone said above I have enough trouble picking one name I like, let alone a matching formal/nn set.

Like I said though, I prefer unplanned nicknames that just emerge, whether or not they really relate to the name. I just feel like the story behind it creates a bit of intimacy. For example I have a William who I occassionally call Tooken/Tooks. It sort of developed from me calling him chicken, or chooks as a baby. One of my closest friends is called Beni by everyone in the group even though her real name is Suzanna. She didn't have a middle name, so we bestowed Banjamin on her as a joke and the nickname Beni stuck. We have another friend nameed Ben who amongst friends is consistently known as Stanly.

This is a little late in the list, but the question was about the origins of the name Stacy/Stacey. As a male name it has been used as a nickname for Eustace.

On the nickname vs full name side I have to say that I prefer nicknames that really are pet names, not the standard abbreviation of the "classical" long name - one example posted above was Josef being called Roo among other things. That, to me, implies a real closeness and a personal relationship history that goes far beyond the Will vs Bill vs William debate. And in reality, I have found, last names are often as much part of these nickname bases as first names. The only consistent theme across all this seems to be "never presume you can use another version of a name until you're told so or until you feel you know them well enough to be allowed to invent one." (in which case, I'd say, invent. Roo, or Banks, or whatever. That to me is the beauty of naming).

Sarah: "Hannah" is nickname-proof ("Hannah Banana" and the rather grating "Hanny" notwithstanding), but I've gone by a pet name with an origin similar to the "Tooks" thing you've described. Its use went beyond my immediate family, too; in fact, I was called it by everyone I knew until I got to college and was too scared to "correct" my professors.

Zoe: Joss Whedon, the television writer/director, is a Joseph.

Everyone: there is a brief article on genderbending names in this week's New York Times Magazine. You can read it at http://tinyurl.com/2vkerb -- note the concluding paragraph, which is perhaps relevant to this discussion.

My first post here, but I couldn't resist. Your discussions are always great, and it's so fun to find a place where my obsession with names isn't weird.

My grandfather was an Anthony, but always went by Bob. It's not entirely clear how he got that nn (I think from his friends), but it was only his siblings who ever called him Tony.

Meg -- I think Helen is a beautiful name. I have a neighbor named Helen who is a sophomore in high school. She's the only Helen I've ever known. And I agree, while the name may become more popular, I doubt it will skyrocket.

In 4th grade, my teacher called me Mandy b/c there was more than one Amanda in our class. My parents hated it! As soon as I hit 5th grade, they made sure everyone called me Amanda again.

I plan on naming my children names that don't really lend themsleves to nicknames. (Right now, I like Clay for a boy and Ainsley for a girl.) Maybe I'm a control freak, like my parents, but I want the name to be what I want it to be, not what friends or other relatives might come up with.

The nickname Joss was mentioned a bit earlier. It made me think of the new, young singer Joss Stone. Her real name is Joscelyn--that is not a typo.

J&H's mom: What is Daisy a nickname for?

Also to J&H's mom: You asked if this is my first. I've been hesitating about whether this is too personal to share. I had a baby just this past April, and she died when she was two days old. Her name was Hilary Marie.

I guess I'd better get some practice at figuring out what to say when people ask if this one is my first, or my only. Both "yes" and "no" feel wrong.

-Meg, I'm sorry for your loss.
-Laura, ITA on the formal names.
-Thanks for the name help around here. I had my second son a week ago, and so now I have a Felix Johann in addition to Xavier James. (Yes, Canucks, I chose XJ long before Justin Trudeau did so for his newborn son, one day older than my second one.)
-NYTimes Sunday Mag has an article on names flipping genders: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/magazine/28wwln-idealab-t.html?ref=magazine

My own children each have a nn in their names. Coby is really Jacob - that was a trough sell to certain members of dh's family. My daughter's fn is Molly (not Mary), but we call her Campbell with is her mn. Molly is after my dh's great-grandmother Mollie who was Jewish and so Mary (not a common Jewish name) never even came up as a possibility. I think that my dh's family would be surprised to hear that Molly is a nn for Mary. In fact, I think in the population at large, many people don't connect names like Jack/John, Molly/MAry, Sadie, Sally/Sarah. Most people aren't as obsessed as we are :)

Daisy has been used as a nickname for Margaret--through Marguerite, the French word for daisy. I think that's one of those names that's hard either way--if you just use Daisy, she may be like many of us who wish for a formal name; but if you use Margaret and call her Daisy, there will be some 'splainin' to do along the way...

I can see it being a reasonable nickname for Dana, though. Or Desiree?

for reasons that are not entirely clear, my wife is dead set against using names that easily beget nicknames - her reason for rejecting william/robert/joseph etc. We have a henry and jack is on the list for #2, as is patrick (but we don't like just pat). I like the fullname-nickname that laura's advocating.

I'm a Donald, grew up Donny and have been a Don since high school. I'm 28 and now only my mom, a few relatives and sometime my wife use Donny - nobody in the world says Donald, but I'm an attorney and use the full 'grown up' Donald on letters and court documents and other work related things. So I like the flexibility a name like that has. Like Bobby/Rob/Robert or Billy/Will/William. The nickname sounding names mentioned - jess, charlie, fred, libby, bonnie - would seem to be out of place in formal situations where people expect to hear a full name.

Meg, I'm very sorry about your first daughter.

Also love Helen. St. Helen sounds like such an interesting character, especially admired in England, where there were lots of medieval churches and holy wells named after her. I like Helena, pronounced HEL-enna, too, because of the lovely actress Helena Bonham Carter. Could be wrong, but I don't think either name will go into the mass-popular realm of an "Emily" or "Abigail".

Perhaps you're not interested in nicknames, but the traditional nickname for Helen and Ellen, "Nell", is SO adorable and Dickensian. To me it would be an added incentive to giving the name Helen. But for a more contemporary pet name, there's always "Hallie"...

By the way, I'm one of those who only likes nicknames that somehow "relate" to the formal name. The nickname doesn't have to start with the same letter, but it should contain at least SOME letters of the original name, i.e. Edward/Ned. Except in the case of old rhyming nicknames Mary/Mally/Molly/Polly. How stodgy is that?!

Incidentally, C and C's Mom, I love "Coby" for Jacob and have heard it once before-- there was an adorable actor in the Sixties, who appeared on television, things like the "Dick Van Dyke" show etc, whose name was Coby Something. I think he was Jewish and that Coby was short for Jacob. You have found the perfect solution to having a boy with a very popular name-- Jacob-- but an unusual and distinctive nickname. He'll never have to be "Jacob S." or "Jacob R." to distinguish from the other ones. Good job!

I have a friend who upon telling me she had named her son "Hank" I exclaimed
"Another Henry, I love it!"
"No, we knew we'd never call him that, so we just named him Hank."
It's cute enough I suppose, but really informal and I guess even if THEY never planned on calling him Henry, it does look better on a resume and opens up the options for later in life.

EO - thanks for the compliment. I think Coby is a fairly common nn for Jacob in Hebrew where Jacob is pronounced differently. Yah - cob (with a long o). I also really like the name Jacoby.

erin - Hank does seem very informal. I would have also guessed that he was a Henry.

Another cute story-

I know a little girl named Emi (pronounced like Emmy) whose Mom is Japanese and Dad is American. As far as I know it's a full name in Japan (even though it sounds like a nickname here) but they thought it would be a nice way to honor her Mom's heritage but still "fit in" with all of the Emmas/Emilys.

I am a Jennie, not a Jennifer. It never really bothered me to have just a nickname since I was named after my great aunt Jennie. I'm surprised how many people call me Jennifer, though. They just want to make it longer, I guess. Kind of defeats the purpose of a nickname.
We're kind of in a nickname quandry with our daughter Adelaide. We call her Ada 100% of the time, but wanted something "dressier" for the birth certificate. Well, my husbands parents don't like the name Ada. They like Addie, so that's what they call her. They see her every couple of months, so she doesn't hear it very often. Now she's 2 1/2 and old enough to start telling Grandma that she's NOT Addie. I honestly don't care if they call her Addie, Although I don't like the name since there are so many Maddies and Addisons running around. (Why we called her Ada in the first place.)
So do I tell Ada to let Grandma call her that, or let Ada tell Grandma that she does not like that name?

By the way, I *love* "Helen Helen Watermelon." I think I may choose the name just so I can call her that!

Jennie W.--I remember that Adelaide was Clementine for 5 days and family pressure made you change her name--right?I think you have been a wonderful sport--far better than I would have been.And if your daughter is called Ada by her parents and herself-I think your husband should remind his parents of that-clearly, nicely and definitively.They'll get over it and this is your choice for your child. When Ada gets to be 11 and wants to be called Delaide or some such--then I think, you three can chat.JMHO.

Meg- just to echo what others have said, I love the name Helen. It's such a classic name and very currently underused, IMHO. I can see it rising in popularity as more and more "grandmotherly" names start sounding fresh instead of old, but I doubt it will ever be super trendy.

Meg, I'm so sorry to hear about your loss -- but also very happy to hear your good news. I agree that Helen is gorgeous (and, like others here, I adore the nn Nell). Congrats!

Meg, I'm so very sorry about the loss of your first daughter. How brave and positive of you to be able to look forward to naming your new baby. Helen seems to me a particularly good choice, because the H and l have a feel of Hilary about them, while being a very different and distinctive name.
We lost our second child Daniel (he was stillborn, having died at full term) and our next child's middle name also has that faint echo - it is Ariel.
I know that awful dilemma of what to say when people ask impossible questions - sometimes it's best just not to answer..smile, ignore the question and say "We're very hapy to have her" or something like that. If someone then persisted I would answer honestly "He is our third child, but our last baby died" unless the questioner was heavily pregnant herself. Then I fudged it. People can be remarkably stupid about this particular question, even my aunt asked us: "Do you think you'll try for a third", to which the answer was:"This is our third." Duh!
Thinking of you Meg..

Meg--
I am so sorry about the loss of your little girl. I think Keren, having been through that herself, has given you the best advice as to how to handle people's questions.
I love the name Helen; that was the name of my favorite aunt. Someone suggested Hallie as a nn--Helen's younger granddaughter, born a month after she died, is named Hallie in her memory. I'm sure all of the regulars here will be looking forward to the news of your new baby's arrival.

jennie w--As a grandmother, my advice it to DEFINITELY let Ada tell Grandma her name isn't Addie. I simply cannot imagine a grandma resisting that coming from her adorable (they're all adorable!) two-and-a-half year old grandchild. If one of my granddaughters told me she wanted to be called Poopy Face I would do it gladly it if would make her happy. In fact, one of them recently went through a few days of answering to nothing but Tinker Bell.

Seriously, if she continues to insist on Addie after the child herself expresses a preference, Ada may come to resent it if Grandma keeps it up anyway, and I would find a tactful way to raise that possibility with her. ("Her" meaning Grandma.)

I actually dont agree--my parents named me Yael but always always call me Ellie--I would much much rather just be Ellie--even in the professional world I introduce myself as Ellie because Yael is so hard to say

I know thats a different situation, but in general I do prefer nicknames over full names as long as its a real name in its own right (e.g. Nellie, Ginny and Liza are all fine but Lolo,Vi,or J not so much)

~Ellie

Meg,
I was really sorry to hear of your loss too. Our baby James Valentine was born in Jan 06 and only lived three days. I haven't said much about it on this site, because it's so name-specific, but I wanted to let you know you're not alone. I'm also very close friends with Keren and it's been good to be able to talk about it. We're trying for another but no success just yet.It's brave of you to try again and I'm so pleased all is going well. Helen is a great classic name, and I like it with the other two names.

Dear Valerie and Keren, I'm so sorry to hear about your losses. Thank you, and everyone, for your kind wishes.

I think I may settle on "she's an only child" as my generic answer.

Penny, I have a friend who retroactively endowed herself "Pennington," though she'd been born a Penny. As a Beth, I am deeply grateful not to have that be my only option (I publish under what I consider the much more dignified Elizabeth), and always felt sorry for the only-Lisas. Eo, I love love love Ned and wanted to use Edward for a boy to get to it, too! Marie, my niece is a Korean-American Emmi, for just the reasons you describe.

Meg, Valerie, and Keren, I too am so sorry about your babies. I also appreciate your being kind enough to share your thoughts about the wrong things to say. That shouldn't have to be your job amidst so much pain, of course, but it's a lovely gift to all of us, as is your willingness to share your stories.

Meg,
I'm so sorry for your loss, and I'm mortified that I asked a question that was so clearly none of my business.
Please accept my apologies.
Valerie & Keren-Beth put anything I might have attempted to say much more eloquently, so I'll just leave it at that.
Jennie W.-Since you don't care, I'd leave it up to Ada to correct Grandma. Many people connect nicknaming with closeness, so it may be an expression of her affection for her, although I believe you that she doesn't like Ada (My father continues to make faces at the old-fashioned names of all four of his grandsons).
If you do decide enough is enough, I agree with the previous poster about letting your husband do the gentle correcting. I absolutely love Ada, btw!
Take care, all!
PS Has anyone heard Girlean before?
I ran across it in the obits.(I have a feeling posters here won't find that as odd as others would).

All of my family and most of my friends from school days call me by my full name (Nicole) most of the time which drives me insane. I was always one of 5 in every class and known by my surname or initials.

I have tried to get them to use my preferred nn (which is one of the common nns) but it hasn't been overly successful. From university days on, I pretty much only went by my nn and put it on all documents, emails addresses etc and seems to be successful. I did swap spellings at some point though so you can kind of tell who knows me from when by what they call me.

Apparently part of the reason people don't like the nn is that it's too boyish (Nic/Nik). I even tend to use it in a business environment but have gone back to using my full name more and more as I get older (although I'm now almost 30). I find my nn doesn't match with my married surname at all so tend to use my full name when using that surname (I use both depending on the circumstance).

I was Nikki for awhile as younger child but very glad (cont

(cont) my parents didn't name me that - I do like the options. I did want to be called Elizabeth most of my childhood, but have grown to like my name, just not it's popularity in my age group. Maybe that's why I'm obsessed with names and their popularity.

My husband has an unusual nn for his fn and has never been known by the usual nn for his name. I seem to always call him by his full name though, only using the nn every now and then. I think it's because I like his full name so much!

J&H's mom - Not at all! Please, don't be sorry, there was nothing at all wrong with the question.

Meg, Valerie, and Keren - I'm very sorry for your losses and thank you for sharing your stories.
Meg - as a Helen myself I can attest that it's a great name. I'm in my late-twenties and rarely meet other Helens in my generation, but everyone seems to have a great-grandmother named Helen (I was named after a great-grandmother myself). I didn't particularly like my name when I was growing up, but I absolutely love it now. I think it's a classic name that sounds traditional and serious, but cute at the same time. I've also wondered why it hasn't become more popular along with other "grandmotherly" names, but maybe it has something to do with the massive oversaturation of the name in the older generations - maybe people still can't imagine it on a little girl?
Oh, and I've never used a nickname - in fact, I didn't even know that Nell was a nn for Helen until recently.

Just want to say that when you lose a baby naming him or her is one of the only 'normal' acts of parenthood that you get to carry out. So it's a particularly precious and special act, and a way in which other people can show their love for you and your baby - by praising and using his or her name.

No one can help asking the "wrong" question, and no one should feel mortified - what matters is the sensitivity shown when you do pick up that all is not well. Everyone here seems very sensitive and caring!

oh and maybe Heen hasn't picked up yet because it was popular in the 1960s and therefore still a mum's generation name - a bit like Karen which we discussed a few posts ago. recenly there was a brilliant comedy on British tv with three children caled Jake, Ben and Karen - I spent the whole programme thinking : She wouldn't be caled Karen! Why is she called Karen? She'd be called Ella or Abbie...

But Karen, and even more so Helen are sure to be on their way back. You'll be a trailblazer.

My dad's fn is Richard, but in college there were 5 Richards in his house; they all got nn's. Ln sounds like Derringer, a type of gun, Peter Gunn was a popular TV show at the time, so my mom met him as "Pete". Has been Pete the rest of his life, except with his family. Goes to show a nn can find a person no matter what.
I am due in 4 days with #3. Already have ds Archer & dd Sylvia. Really struggling with names this time. Will be a boy, mn Randall to honor my husband. Zane, Flynn, Clark on our short list, but haven't settled on anything. Dh insists it be easily spelled, pronounced, unequivocally male, and preferably not in top 500. Any suggestions? I'm starting to panic that we don't have "the name" on our list.
FWIW, we didn't narrow our list down this far with first two - we "meet" baby before making the final decision. (is that weird?)

Kagey - congrats! very exciting! I would caution against Flynn for a boy if you want "unequivocally male." I know a little girl named Flynn (with a twin sister Avery), and have heard it tossed about for girls a bit more these days. That said, I do love Clark with Archer and Sylvia. Coolness all around there. Best to you!

Also wanted to add that little girl Flynn is often called "Flynnie" in case you're interested! :)

Are any of these surname names ever unequivocally male? Just wondering - if Cameron and Parker can be girls' names then surely Clark could be too? Maybe you're better off wth something like Henry, Jacob, Zachary, Ben?

I don't think it's quite true that Helen was popular in the '60's. If you look it up on the Soc Sec page, it rose to popularity in the 1890's, and was insanely popular for decades. Then it began a long slow slide in the 1930's that continued until the late 80's. Since then it's been bopping around in the 300's. So in the 1960's it was more popular than it is now, but there wasn't any spike in that decade.

Here's another puzzle similar to the Helen puzzle. Why hasn't Sylvia come back, given the popularity of Olivia and Sophia?

Interestingly, I didn't choose either Hilary or Helen for the H or L sounds, and I arrived at them from very different directions.

This is actually a reason against Helen, for me. I don't want to be trying to recreate the sound of Hilary.

I actually favor the R sound, but all the R names are either over-used (recently, like Rachael, or a little while back, like Robin), or else I don't like them (like Rebecca and Roberta).

(Apologies to any Rebecca's and Roberta's here!)

I wonder if Sylvia hasn't come back because of that double consonant in the middle. Laura discussed that a while back.

Meg - My favorite category in the book is "Why Not?" - where you'll find Renata, Rosemary, and a couple other R girl names that might catch your eye. (I like Rose or Rosemary, but that's b/c my grandma is Rosemary.) My mom is Ruth, mn Ann, and hated being called Ruthanne as a girl. As for nn, I was surprised to meet a Ruthanne a couple years ago who went by Thanne. I thought that youthened an otherwise "older" name.
When we picked Sylvia, the "runner up" was Charlotte, but Sylvia won because we had already settled on Violet as the middle, and I loved how the V sounds worked together. Funny you should mention Sophia - a friend of mine heard me wrong when I called to tell her Sylvia's name, and the next thing I knew, my whole Bible study thought my dd's name was Sophia! Oops.
Thanks to may for letting me know that Flynn is starting to jump the gender line. DH won't like to hear that!

On the topic of Sylvia - I have a niece Sylvie, which I love though I don't like the name Sylvia. Sylvie feels fresh and cute, while Sylvia feels dated to me.

On the topic of nicknames - I have loved the name Katherine/Catherine since I was a little girl. Now, my married last name is Kl-------. Have thought about Cate as a potential first name but would rather have Catherine - just worried that Catherine Kl------- is too much. Thoughts?

How many syllables is "Kl-------"? If it's one -- for instance, "Klemp" -- I think there's no problem. Otherwise, there is the potential for spoonerism: Clatherine Kondike, Clatherine Konsky, etc.

Kagey- I just want to say that I love Zane. i think it's a great, strong name. You could get teasing for being "zaney"-- but how bad is that really? It's unusual, male and easy to pronounce.

I'm finding the Sylvia discussion very interesting. Like Susan, to me Sylvia feels like an old lady. But Sylvie sounds like a darling little girl or a fashionable young woman. I wonder why the difference?

Also, Susan, as Hannah said, the answer to your question depends on the number of syllables of your last name.

I always think that if one uses a surname, particularly one related to a profession, one should at least consider what it means. I teach two brothers called Tanner and Mason (and funnily enough their surname is a word meaning a working man) and every time I say Tanner, I think of a man tanning animal skins. Not an attractive image. I also know a young guy named Garrison (military post) who is way into being in musicals, and would be about the last person who'd choose to join the military, in my estimation.
Archer seems strong, courageous and noble, and Clark at least studious and literate (a good thing in my book) so I like those better.

One nickname-proof name is growing on me: Eli. Thoughts? Does it go with Henry, our other son?

There are some nice R names beyond Rachel and Rebecca - how about Rowan or Rowena, Romola or Remony?

I really like Eli and Henry together.

How about Romilly?

Eli and Henry sound great together.

Re: the Sylvia discussion, I've been noticing Sylvan on many name lists lately and wondered if this was a more contemporary take on Sylvia.

Don--I think Henry and Eli sound great together!

R names: How about Ramona?

Sylvie/Sylvia: The reasons given for preferring Sylvie over Sylvia are the same ones why I named my daughter Sophie instead of Sophia. Sophia still sounds old to me--I think of the character from the Golden Girls television series. But Sophie sounded young and fresh. Oddly enough, though, Sophia is the far more popular form and many people think that Sophie is a nn for Sophia. When I explain that Sophie IS her full name, they seem somewhat puzzled and don't seem to realize that Sophie is legitimate full name in its own right. And since I am someone who definitely would never give a child a nn as a full name, I find this troublesome.

My parents named me Katy, so "I'd never have to correct the teacher." Unfortunately, there's no grown-up version for me to fall back on. My son's name is Charles, known as Charlie, but also called Chuck by a few relatives. My mom disapproved of naming your kid one thing and calling him another, but I figure she's already had her chance to make that decision. This time, I'm letting Charlie decide when he's old enough.

I know a little girl named Sylvia Jane, so for me it's a kid's name again. (And I know a mom named Sylvie, btw.)

I want to add my vote for Rowena as an offbeat, lovely R name. It's got the literary and historical dimensions, and the sound is in keeping with other popular names while still being distinctive.

A website about its history:
http://medievalscotland.org/problem/names/rowan.shtml

How can one consider Molly, Jack, Eliza or Drew to be just nicknames.
For me the point of nicknames is a shortening affectionate way of relating to someone.
Molly/Mary Jack/John are the same syllable length and don't seem related to each other.

Personally I will choose a name that i love the lengthened version as much as the shortened nickname to avoid this issue.
For instance Anastasia is beautiful, one of my favourites but I detest Stacy with a passion. I'd never take the risk of my daughter wanting to go by Stacy.

[for the record, i'm a Sophie who wishes she was called Sophia!]

I just wanted to add that I LOVE the name Eli and think it sounds great with Henry!

jt--Sylvan is the male counterpart to Sylvia, in the same family as Sylvester and Silas, and is definitely not a new name, but I guess it may have a more contemporary sound to some. It's on our boy list, probably second in line right now to Rowan (the male counterpart to Rowena, and *not* traditionally a female name), tight in the running with Oliver and Linden. Sylvia, nn Sylvie, is near the top of our girls list, too.

Sharon, I wouldn't have known Sophie was a traditional full name--I usually see it listed as "variant of Sophia"--is that wrong? Either way, I think it's a lovely name.

Sophia, the names you list were historically nns--not stand-alones, even though they weren't always shorter and didn't share a lot of letters with the original. They all sound strong enough to me to stand on their own today, but if name origins and meanings are important to you, they'll always be "variant of Mary" or some such.

I like Henry and Eli together a lot, too.