The Baby Name Wizard

amen, amen.

sometimes, when one is full-grown, the cutesie name really does feel limiting. as a Bonnie, with no long form for resumes, i've always felt like my name lacked gravitas.

it doesn't mean i do, or that i've been horribly harmed by having a nn-style name. but i'd prefer to have been Bonita or Bronwen or something else, even if i'd been called Bon/Bonnie every day of my life.

I agree Laura - My husband and I loved the name Georgie, but named our daughter Georgiana in case she wanted to go by something more formal later in life. We call her both Georgie and Georgiana. I like the flexiblity.

Another voice of agreement here. My sister, Wendy's name always sounded like a nickname to her--she wanted to have a "bigger" name to fall back on like Gwendolyn or the creative, Wendolyn.

I knew a birth-certificate Libby who went by Elizabeth for a while. I think she's come to appreciate her name over time, but I imagine it was rough going for a while. Then again, there's a whole generation of Stacy/Stacies out there who would never have been happy as Anastasias.

"Then again, there's a whole generation of Stacy/Stacies out there who would never have been happy as Anastasias."

FWIW, I don't believe Stacy is a nickname per se, it's an independent modern name that became popular on the model of Tracy.

Yes, yes, yes! I've always felt that naming a child a nickname (or shouldn't that be diminutive?) is limiting. I know a couple of adult Katies whom I believe have ended up with a 'cute' persona. I wonder if they were called Kate or Katharine they might even feel differently about themselves!

This is the perfect time to settle a minor debate between my husband and me. Has Lucy always been a full name on its own, or did it start out as a short form or nickname (of Lucia or something like that)?

And I agree, I like full names on birth certificates. Instead of finding one that goes with a nn I like, though, I'd rather choose a full name that I like from the get-go.

Lucy has often been used as a nickname for Lucinda, but I think I'm right in saying that Lucinda is actually a more recent name: so Lucinda is an amplification of Lucy rather than Lucy being a diminutive of Lucinda.

There was a St Lucy, I believe - and in that context, I think Lucy comes from the Latin lux, meaning "light". Of course, Lux has also been used (less commonly) as a given name - like the girl in The Virgin Suicides.

Lucy is also a relatively old surname, and has been used as both a girls' and boys' given name as a result (e.g. when boys are given their mother's maiden surname as a first or middle name). It is obviously much more commonly used for girls now, though.

I always thought Lucy was a nn for Lucille...think Lucille Ball/I Love Lucy.

Yes, exactly!

I'm halfway through pregnancy with my second, and as we've considered names, flexibility and potential nicknames have been important. A name like Jefferson, for instance (wasn't ever on our list, but as an example) might be nice, but as my husband put it, "the Jeffs I've known have been boring." I'm hopeful that we will love the name we've picked (at least at this point, subject to change before baby!) will work for our little guy in many life circumstances!

AMEN!

Valerie - I think of Kate as a nickname also, not as the full/long form of Katie. This was an issue when we were naming our daughter - we loved Kate, but didn't like Katharine or Kathleen or Caitlin or any of the other extended dance mix versions of the name. So we named her something entirely different that didn't have the nickname issue!

I didn't mean to imply that Kate is the fill name, just that if these women were named Katharine they would have choices about nicknames, like Kate, that sound more adult to me.

I liked what Laura said about 'Marty' Scorsese. I'm a classical musician and we always tend to use full names on programs, etc, but I've noticed that jazz is completely the opposite- lots of Bills, Daves, etc. I think it's to emphasize a laid-back-type persona.

I love this topic! My family are great nicknamers--sometimes they have to do with the full name, and might not have anything to do with the name, but everyone has one. My dh's family (MIL) is just the opposite-she thinks people should be named what you plan to call them, no matter what. Both of her kids were named what I consider nicknames (think Joe not Joseph, or Jen not Jennifer). When ds was born, we named him William with the plan on calling him Will. She asked if we were going to call him Bill and I told her no. Before I could go on she just huffed & said "I'm glad your not one of those to butcher names". Needless to say, Will didn't go over so well. My MIL will even refuse to call people what they ask to be called because it's "not really their name". DH has an old school friend Mike, who MIL insists on calling Michael even though he hates it! Can you tell this really bothers me? LOL. Enough with the rant-on the Kate issue, my great granmother was named Sarah, but her BIL didn't think she cont..

...didn't think she looked like a Sarah & jokingly called her Kate. For whatever reason it caught on & she went by Kate the rest of her life-Kate is even what was put on her tombstone and I have a cousin who was named Katherine in honor of our great-grandmother "Sarah".

Louise, The story about your mother-in-law confuses me. If she likes "real names" (like Michael instead of Mike) so much, why did she name her children things that have traditionally been used as nicknames? Or is it just that she thinks people ought not to have nicknames at all? She's fighting a losing battle there! Even kids named Abby will become Ab or Abs (horrors!) at some point.

As a naming fanatic, I wholeheartedly support you on this one, Laura! I prefer the longer forms of the names simply because the nicknames allow us to sneak in more names, and who could be opposed to that? (Other than Louise's mother-in-law!)

I have been called Jessi my whole life by my parents, never have they udder the name Jessica. But Jessica looks good on a resume and reads more like an adult.
Another Example When I gave birth to my son the DR. called me Jessica but my Husband and my Mum called me Jessi and there is a comforting and endearing quality there, like Laura said "as a mark of intimacy or long-standing relationships" I Totally agree!

I am always a little surprised when parents get particular about a nickname (full name) when ultimately, it is the child's name. My son is Timothy (Tim) and my husband and I swore we'd never call him Timmy. (Too cutesy for us).

So at 18 months, my son of course started calling himself Timmy. Hopefully, as an adult, he'll go by Tim or Timothy, but if not, he's the one to worry about it.

To Heather:
Lucy is the original English form of the Latin name Lucia, which was the original name of the saint. It was not at first a nickname for anything, but the English language equivalent of Lucia. Lucille came into English much later than Lucy; it is the French form of Lucilla, which was a Latin diminutive of Lucia. So Lucy was NOT originally a pet form of Lucille; it would be more correct to call Lucille a pet form of Lucy. Lucinda, meanwhile, is an expansion of Lucy which was created in the 17th century.

Note that the majority of examples of children given pet forms as official names are girls. There certainly is a tradition in the South of putting forms like Billy and Bobby on boys' birth certificates, but this almost never happens in the Northern USA. Northerners, however, are just as or even a bit more likely to put forms like Katie on a girl's birth certificate.

There are so many Americans who think that a good name for a boy must be an at least two-syllable form which yields a one-syllable version that will actually be used to refer to him by in everyday life that it's resulted in the creation of some names. I think the reason we have so many boys named after the capital city of New Jersey in the USA now is that there were lots of parents who wanted to call a son "Trent" but just didn't feel comfortable putting a one-syllable name on the birth certificate, so expanded that to Trenton. Kylan is probably a similar "expanded" version of Kyle.

Yup, I'm another one--like Bonnie, it's not like it's been the central tragedy of my existence, but having a nickname on my birth certificate isn't something I would've chosen for myself. I like the name, but there are definitely times when I'd like to have the formal alternative (Penelope). And I gave my kids formal names, knowing I'd be calling them by nicknames. (My daughter uses either/or, as she sees fit.)

O a subject near to my heart! My mom had an extreme adversion to Jess or Jessi. I spent most of my growing up years warding off those who wanted to call me such. Hence, I would like to add a note to Laura's post. "Think long and hard if you really like the name but abhor the nn. Life inevitably happens. Do you or do you not want to deal with it?"
I am trying quite hard to convince my friend to not name her baby Fred. But she hates the name Frederick or any fomr thereof. Any suggestions? (her first son is Zachary - not Zach)

Other names that can be nicked as Lucy are Lucina (Roman goddess of childbirth!), Lucine, Luciana, Lucretia, even Louise and Louisa.

For Fred--any chance of Alfred? It's not just the butler on Batman--kings and poets have used the name with style!

I am definitely in the camp of formal names on birth certificates. That gives the child much more flexibility.

There are lots of names that stand on their own as well as act as nicknames, like the name Jack. I don't think people are naming their boys John and using the nickname Jack so much as just naming the child Jack.

When I grew up, I had friends named Beth, Lisa, and Kate. All three of them were just named those names - they are not short for Elizabeth or Katherine. I always found it odd, but, of course, those nicknames can stand on their own, too.

The Zachary and Fred siblings remind me of Laura's post about sibling names that don't match!

I don't have any advice for your friend, Jessica, but I would definitely pick Frederick myself (love the name, but it almost rhymes with my last name so we wouldn't even consider it).

Does she plan to call him Fred? What a funny name for a little boy. I think of Mr. Rogers. Or Freddy? I think of Krueger. But Frederick is darling!

So, is Libby now a popular nickname for Elizabeth (I realize it has been in existance as a nickname for a long time, but it wasn't used often by Elizabeths I knew growing up - I am now 30)? I like it - and I like Eliza and figure that is way too popular/common right now - as a nickname for Elizabeth, but never want to put something too popular on a kid (it seems - trendwise - Libby would be popular right now, so that is not surprising). What about Betsey? Is that also popular now?

No, I am not pregnant, but am obsessed with names - and Elizabeth is a family name on both sides, so there is a good chance a girl might end up with it.

Agreed.

My full name is Angela, but I often go by Aiea (which derived from Angela... long story). My brother Josef goes by Joey/Joe/Jooj/Booj/Squish/Roo depending on the situation.

A good friend of mine, legally-named Kate, HATES that she doesn't have a more formal name. To rebel, she started asking people to call her Katherine in middle school, and then began using "Katie" as a nickname, which she said was short for Katherine (not Kate...). She's in medical school now, and I think she's still doing it.

Oh did we agonize over this very subject. Our issue was more complicated than "love the name/hate the nickname." Our son is named Charles, after a Charlotte; we call him Charlie. We are sort of indifferent about the formal name (Charles), love one nickname (Charlie) and hate one nickname (Chuck). Of course, our BIL insists on saying "how's Chuck" everytime we speak to him. I never told him I didn't like Chuck; I guess he assumed.

So, for our 2nd son, we went with one of those on the "no nickname" list; Owen. BIL still found a way to be "funny" -- he always says "your going to be "owing" a lot of $ for Owen."

I think you can't win. I like the concept that you give the formal name and then the kid can choose later in life.

I know an Elizabeth who was always called Beth until she went to college and introduced herself to everyone as Elizabeth. Another friend decided late in life that Betty sounded too old, so she also switched to Elizabeth.
My daughter's friends would switch back and forth periodically and looked at me funny if I called them Melissa and Jennifer when they were in a Missy and Jenny phase or vice versa. It is nice to have options, isn't it?

And hey, if you don't have a seldom-used formal name, how will you know when your mom is really mad at you? ;)

Thanks, Ms. Wattenberg, great piece as usual. Can't imagine why the formal name on the birth certificate wouldn't be an advantage. You can nickname to your heart's delight in real life, but always have the more serious moniker when circumstances merit it.

I too adored hearing my mother, Katherine, referred to by my Dad and other relatives as "Kitty", a nickname I assume she was given by her late-Victorian parents. When my Dad called her "Kit", I knew he was going to be especially playful and affectionate. Warm fuzzies...

Would seriously consider naming a boy "Edward" to get to my favorite nickname of all time, "Ned".

I'm at the age (33) where I have a lot of friends having kids, and I always advise them not to give their kids names that sound like nicknames but don't have formal names to go with them - like Bonnie (first post) or Stacey. I would love to have the option to have a more formal-sounding name, but as another poster notes, Stacey's become a stand-alone, even if it doesn't sound like one. Names like this are pretty much the worst of both worlds - you're always called by a diminutive-sounding name, and there's no clear option for formalizing even if you wanted to fake it like the Kate/Katherine described above.

I'm a Lisa who was almost named Elizabeth. Oh, how I wish my parents had given me a whole timeless name instead of a couple dated syllables!

I don't consider Molly, Jack , Eliza or Drew to be stand alone names. Please name your children Mary, John, Elizabeth and Andrew instead!

Stacy is definitely a derivative of Anastacia.

Stacey, Bonnie, and others--what is it to you that makes a name "formal sounding"? Is it just the y/ie ending that makes it sound informal? If so, do traditionally full -y names like Lucy, Mary, Tansy, Poppy, Ivy, etc. sound informal to you? Is it also the length/# of syllables? I ask because Ivy tops my girls list right now, and I'm wondering if a future Ivy would have the same feeling about her name as you describe.

I agree with Laura's post too. I don't usually go for nns in general, and I can't imagine naming a kid Mike or Sue. I go even further and feel generally uncomfortable with 1 syllable names, as Cleveland Kent Evans was describing--they just seem too curt, not enough. DH and I like the name Fern a lot, but I don't think we'd use it because of that.

I go another step further and tend to prefer names with no obvious nn--it's hard enough to come up with ONE name we love, much less a name AND nn pair we love.

Ivy clearly escapes the cutesy nickname problem, because it's not a diminutive of anything (there's no name "Ive.") Plus, ivy is an actual word that includes the "y" syllable.

I hope you don't give up on Fern! What a great, underused and beautifully simple name. But then, I love single syllables, if they're good syllables: Fern, Rose, Anne, Paul, John.

I agree that Ivy wouldn't ever seem like a nickname, and I hope you go for it! It happen's to be one of our top three choices for a future girl, but I think I'm shying away from it for various personal reasons.

On Fred: I'd second Alfred, add Wilfred, and try pushing Frederick one more time. Although it's probably in the category of too-outdated-to-be-cool-yet, the main selling point of Wilfred, for me, would be the nn. possibility of Will. I guess it sounds like your friend might not want another nn. possibility, but Fred really doesn't do it for me, and I would think there's some chance that at some point in his life, baby Fred might prefer Will/Eric/Derick/Derek/Alfie/Al/Alf/Fritz. I wonder if you could sell her on a surname-y name instead: Fredson, Freddison,... I don't particularly like those, but I still think they'd be better than just Fred. Maybe a surname with nn. Fritz? Fitzgerald could reasonably become Fritz, or even Fred. Fitzhugh?

"Fitzhugh" -- oh, Darcy! -lol
I think I'd go with Frederick if I were after Fred for a nn, though there's nothing really wrong with Alfred, it's just not my thing.

I don't think Ivy sounds like a nickname, ditto Lily, because they are words on their own. But do they sound slightly diminutive because of the Y ending? I don't know, that concerns me a little with Lucy too (which I need to quit thinking about because DH has already said no, though it is a great name and he is wrong (grin)... but I digress). I think these names are just fine and that I am being hypersensitive because I'm trying to find a girl name too, and for some reason I am stuck on choosing something "serious." Honestly though, I have gone through life with half of my name being a diminutive, and I have no trouble being taken seriously as a professional. Maybe it's the Anne at the end. :)

Longtime lurker here, but I can't resist sharing with you how my uncle got his nickname. When he was born, my grandmother wanted to name him Calvin, and my grandfather wanted to name him Pete. Calvin went on the birth certificate, but my grandfather simply disregarded this and continued to call him Pete, as did his older (and eventually younger) siblings, so Pete it was. To the best of my knowledge, only telemarketers now call him Calvin. The best part is that his wife now calls him Peter "for long."

OK, off topic, but HAD to share with you guys. Back to the topic of names harmonizing with each other. Just read an article about Jerry Seinfeld, and his three kids are called Sascha, Julian and Shepherd. I.e. 1)Russian diminutive of Alexander, 2)English creative, sensitive type and 3)uber-cool surname-as first-name modern kid. Interesting! Or is Sascha a girl?? I've seen the spelling Sasha for a girl.

Also came across the name L'Wren. Yikes!

Oh gosh, a whole bunch of comments...
I knew a boy called Ivy in high school--it was short for Ivanhoe.
hyz--re one-syllable lns--there are cases where they really are the best choice. My son-in-law was almost Christopher Verylongitalianlastname. Apparently his father left the hospital and then phoned his mother, saying, "We've got to find another name. I just wrote the whole name out, and he'll be in college before he can spell it!" So he's Scott. I've commented on how smart his parents were to give him and his brother one-syllable names.
My brother is a case in reverse: always went by his full name as a kid, but as an adult opted for the nn. So most of the family call him by the full name, but his wife and newer friends use the nn.
My 5-mo old grandson is Samuel--full name most of the time, Sam or Sammy sometimes; his big sister has come up w/ Sam-sam; I occasionally use Shmuel and Sam-I-Am gets in there once in a while.
I can certainly understand using normal nns; what I really don't get is
(cont.)

Thanks, guys. I think Ivy could be either serious or spunky, depending on the person, so I wasn't really worried about it being too short and cute until the complaints above (after all, there's no "Stace" or "Bon", either :). Liz, I like your list of one syllables, and I might personally add June and Reed--but maybe my aversion to actually using them is because our lns are only one syllable? I'd even prefer 3 syllables to 2 with our lns, but DH and I couldn't agree on any 3 syllable names.

Fred doesn't do it for me, either, but I think Frederick is pretty nice. I think there are a number of rarer Old English (and other) names ending in -fred, like Alfred. Winfred, Manfred, Wilfred, Walfred, Ulfred, Lefred, Ingfred.... I also know a guy with the given name Fritz, named after his father Fred (his dad insisted on being the namesake, his mom hated the name Fred).

I can certainly understand using normal nns; what I really don't get is "We're naming him John, but we'll call him Ray, for Uncle Raymond." Why not just use Raymond in the first place???
(Just read Bea Dee's post about Calvin called Pete. I also know of a Howard, who was always called Pete. Don't know how that came about.)

I know a Ted and a Larry, both certificate names. Both have had problems w/ people not believing those were their real names.
Also a Bronnie, named after an ancestor with some Yiddish names her parents didn't want to use, who always had similar problems...people insisted it had to be a nn for something.
And I had a student named Rebbie, because her parents didn't like Rebecca. When I knew her she was in 6th grade, but my guess is that as she grew up she would have preferred having the more formal option.

Arlene, looks like I was posting at the same time as you--yes, the last name is part of the issue!

I also agree on the unrelated nns. Sort of a similar thing--I recently found out a guy I know is sort of a nn mess. I always thought his official name was Frank Jay Lastname (that's what's on business documents, etc.), goes by Jay. But I just saw his diploma, turns out his name is Francis James Lastname--I guess he hated his fn so much he felt the need to nick it, even though he goes by a nn of his middle name! That has to get a bit confusing at times.

Valerie, Sascha Seinfeld is indeed a girl. I like the name--more as a nickname for "Alexander/Alexandra" than on its own--but I've never understood why some people spell it with that superfluous "c." Drives me nuts, and I always want to grab the letter and fling it out of the name. (Interesting, too, because, in Russian there are two "sh" sounds, one of which is usually transliterated as "sch" and is practically impossible for an English speaker to pronounce...but the actual Russian nickname doesn't use this character, as far as I know.)

Anyway, I've always thought that Sascha, Julian, and Shepherd were weirdly incongruous too. At first glance they seem like they go together, but then you look again and you're like...nope.

Sascha would be better if it was a nickname for Alexandra and if it was spelled correctly.

Julian is a great name.

Shepherd is awful. Simply awful. The poor child.

Shepherd Seinfeld just doesn't work phonetically for me. Makes me want to say Shepherd Sheinfeld. Which also is a last name, incidentally. Or perhaps Sepherd Seinfeld, though that one doesn't have the benefit of being an actual name, to my knowledge.

I actually toyed with using Shepard for Henry. I'm glad I didn't, but I still like it, and I think Shep would be a darling nn. I agree that it's not fabulous with Seinfeld, though.
I do agree with Laura on this topic, although I also agree with her that Jack and others can stand-alone (I have a "just Jack," myself).
As I'm sure most regulars to this board know, "just Jack," has been a popular name for hundreds of years. Of course, that doesn't prove anything, but it's not a modern affectation.
It is sort of too bad that you can't do the reverse of "short-for."
I absolutely adore the name Charlie, but for some reason I have this total aversion to Charles. It wouldn't work with our ln anyway, but I was thinking the other day about whether you could use Chaz as a formal name with Charlie as the nn. Probably not....
There must be some nns that are actually longer than the formal name, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.
Anyone?

PS-Momtochuck, I didn't mean to offend with my Charles comment. My typing got faster than my brain for a minute.

I bet L'wren was given that name so she could be nicknamed Wren.

Awww, I like Shepherd. It didn't make my long list, so I guess I don't like it *that* much :), but I find it very appealing. It could have a religious connotation, and to me it clearly has a nice agrarian connotation (pastoral, quaint, sweet, peaceful, natural, antiquated), and I even like German Shepherds. It's a nice alternative to the more violent profession names like Hunter, Archer, Gunner, etc., and seems like a more attractive occupation to me than somthing like Taylor. Plus it has the soft and aspirated sounds I like. Hmmm... I might've talked myself into putting it on the list.... :) If anything, with the nn Shep (which is very cute, don't get me wrong), it might come off as a little too masculine for my tastes somehow....

Yeah, I have uncles who have Larry and Jerry on their birth certificates--not any formal versions. And I didn't even know my own grandmother's real first name until I saw it on the tombstone years after she died--I'm sure I never heard it used by any of her relatives, who called her a completely different name (for reasons unknown).