The Baby Name Wizard

The problem with the nickname versus formal name dichotomy proposed by Laura is that many common names fall into a gray middle area. Laura picked easy names as examples. Everyone agrees that "JoJo" is a childhood nickname while "Joseph" is the standard formal version. I doubt "JoJo" is a separate entry in any baby name book. But there are lots of other names that people would disagree on whether it is just a nickname or really a stand-alone formal name. What do we think of Tessa, Liam, Sadie, Greta, Tina, Carly, Lola or Sasha? Nicknames or formal names? Diminutives or variants? How do we decide when a nickname has become a stand-alone name? Opinions vary.

The real debate is not who likes formal names and who likes nicknames. It is which names are formal names and which names are nicknames. Those who name their daughters Tessa, Lucy & Kate are probably not saying "I come down on the nickname side of Laura's fence." They are more likely saying "Tessa(etc.) is now a stand-alone name, not a nickname."

J&H's mom--a quick one that comes to mind is John, nn Johnny "for short". :) Also Mary nn Maisie. German, French, and other names also follow this pattern, although some of the nns are now also stand-alones (Greta nn Gretchen, Fleur nn Fleurette).

Don't forget that Shepherd is another character (sur)name from "Lost," along with Desmond, Sawyer, Penelope, Juliet, Naomi, Hugo... so it could get a little bump from that. And it's one of those names that can have religious significance, without being too obvious a reference--those seem to be in demand too.

(Oh, I just realized one baddie character on Lost is called Benjamin Linus--there's a more recent pop culture Linus than the Peanuts character, from the last thread.)

All the men I've known personally with Shepherd as a first name have been Jewish. I guess I've always assumed that Jewish parents were attracted to it because they associated it with "Sephardim". But perhaps that's not true.

Many Spanish names have longer nicknames: Pablo is Pablito, Elena is Elenita, etc.

My brother's name is Donald but all his life he has preferred to be Don, including his signature, business card and all. I have a nephew of the same name, known by his full name within the family but Don at work and socially outside of the family. Short forms of longer names are pretty logical for informal use and IMO different from nicknames which vary considerably from the original formal name. In either case they are usually used in affectionate and intimate situations and I agree that a formal name ought to be on the birth certificate for options later on.

In a different circumstance (I have mentioned this previously), when naming our sons, we picked simple names that could *never be messed up*, as it were -Mark and Gregory (simple short form, Greg). Granted, both kids were tiny, blonde and blue-eyed, but the hackles on my neck went up when I discovered that their teachers were calling them Markie and Greggie! However, a simple directive solved it and the diminutives did not stick with their peers!

Quick note:
-chen is a diminutive suffix in German (think Maedchen, from Maedl), so Gretchen is the nn for Greta, not the other way around.

Also, interestingly, Jack isn't "short" for John, and Chuck isn't particularly "short" for Charles. They're all one syllable. I never understood the mania for nn-ing, and it irritates me when people do it to my DH, who has a two syllable Korean name, let's just say Joon-hee. People who go by names like Megan or Destry or Allison or Jennifer will say, that's too long, do you go by Joon? No. First of all, Jen-ni-fer, it's shorter than your name, which you seem to be perfectly satisfied to go by. Second of all, if he went by Joon, wouldn't he introduce himself as such? I think it's presumptuous, and it's unfortunate that some people don't use names they love because others are so rude that they would insist upon calling a child or adult something other than what that person would prefer. It's not like 2 or 3 syllables are such a burden to string together....

Regarding Shepherd being used by Jewish parents, I don't know any Shepherds, but I thought it would be used by Christian parents because Jesus is often thought of as the Great Shepherd. Also, he told his followers to take care of his sheep.

I've tried to wait before hijacking, but I'm going to burst: It's a girl!

A while back I got useful comments about "Renee." Now I'm considering "Helen," and would again like to hear people's reactions.

Is Helen poised to become trendy? Why, given current trends (Isabella, Hannah, etc.) hasn't it already? Is there something keeping it off the popular list? Or has it just somehow managed to stay under the radar so far?

And will it eventually *sound* like a dated, early 21st century name, because it fits the mold, even if it itself never becomes popular? (Sheesh, I'm so glad I have you people to obssess to.)

I'm considering Helen because it's a family name, so I'm not considering things that sound close like "Elaine" or whatever.

The full name would be "Helen Rajani Wilson."

And just to show I'm paying attention, here's a quirky nick-name story. My uncle was named after his father, and was called "J. Ray" to distinguish him from the elder Ray. J. Ray became Jerry, and he's been called that his whole life, even though it's not related to his given name.

As a Meg/Margaret, I've always found it useful to have a formal name that's different from what I use in daily life. As a little kid, I was surprised to discover not everyone followed this pattern. That there were kids named Linda, for example, who were both "called" Linda and also "really" Linda.

Helen Rajani Wilson sounds great - realy stylish and unusual, yet recognisable. I feel like Helena is more likely to become trendy, but Helen is easier to pronounce. It's a bit like Jean - not trendy, unexected, grandmothery yet cool. Much better than Renee.

On nicknames - my sister is Deborah, never Debbie, yet people would insist on calling her Debbie - we never knew who they were talking about. In the Uk now so many nickames are used as given names - Archie, Alfie, Ellie etc - I find it strange, like people don't think their child is going to grow up.

Meg -- I really like Helen, but I can't look at it objectively since I know a little Helen and she is adorable. :) I think it was a family name for them as well. I have not met any other young Helens. I am not clairvoyant enough to know if it'll become trendy eventually, but I think for now it fits very well with the names that *are* being used a lot. If it turns out to be more popular in the coming years, you can at least say that you were ahead of the curve. :)

Does Joss sound like a nickname? Of what name?

Also, LOVE Helen Rajani Wilson and am not so much a fan of Renee.

Congratulations, Meg! Helen Wilson and Helen Rajani Wilson both sound great. I think Helen will probably become a bit more popular in the coming years, but I doubt it would become an Ella or Ava. Either way, it's a lovely name, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. I don't know if you're thinking about using a nickname, but I love Nell.

Joss does sound like a nn. to me. My first thought would be Jocelyn, then I'd move to Josephine.

Meg, congratulations!!!

I like Helen a lot, and I think the whole name sounds great. I'm also not so much a fan of Renee. I only know one Helen that I can think of, and she's about 47, and has always hated her name because it sounded "like an old lady" to her. She says she wishes she had a "nice" name, like "Linda or Kathy or Barbara or Sue". :) To me, those sound like frumpy names, and Helen sounds cool! I told her so, but she wasn't convinced. :)

I love Helen! It is the name of a dear friend who is in her 30s. Even when I met her in college it never sounded old to me. I don't think she got that reaction until she married and it somehow aged with her husband's last name (her maiden name sounds youthful).

Regarding nns. First, I also have to get off the fence. I don't understand naming a child a nn. Frankly even one that has crossed over to a common name (e.g. Jack). As someone who always had options I loved being Katie when I was tiny, Cat for most of my childhood, Kate for college, and now just Catherine (bwt not sure why my family/me have always turned to K for Kate/Katie).

In terms of fun nns. I knew someone in college named Joseph Toby ln. Apparently his mother loved Toby but his father wouldn't name him that. So he immediately became Joby. It was a great name but he had the option of Joseph for applications/resumes.

Hey, Meg, my daughter is Helen. Like for you, it's a family name--but you'll find that nearly everyone had a great-grandma named Helen! (No really, it was like #2 in popularity in 1910.)

Our daughter (a second-grader) uses the nickname Nell, just like my great-grandma did. That confuses some people, but I just say "well, I can't call her Hell!" And then they see the truth of that.

The full name you've got planned is gorgeous--go for it. You'll find that it's a name that's comfortable across many cultures and languages, it has a lovely meaning ("light"), and it hardly ever gets misspelled (although sometimes people do mis-hear it as "Ellen"). And there are loads of good historical antecedents who carried the name well.

One of the older Helens told me that she was teased with "Helen Helen Watermelon" as a girl. But I'm thinking, wow, if that's the worst they can come up with, we'll be fine.

Some thoughts...

Maybe Joss could also be a nn for Josiah?

Joss Ackland, the actor, was Sidney Edmond Jocelyn Ackland.

Greta is short for Margarethe in German, as far as I know. Gretchen is an alternative diminutive.

My father John was known as Jackie as a kid- that's a longer nn. Sounds very girly to me... but then I remembered Jackie Chan. I don't think anyone would have dared call him girly to his face!

Keren-love what you said about Archie, Alfie and the like. They sounds great on under-fives but may sound puerile on adults. Or maybe we'll just get used to them. Jonathan Ross's kid Betty Kitten and Jamie Oliver's Poppy Honey and Daisy Boo stand out to me as What Not to Do in that respect....yikes!

Elizabeth T-at least I'm not the only one who doesn't understand my MIL. I think her feelings are that whatever you are going to call your kid should be on the birth certificate. If you want to call him Mike, then name him Mike. If you name him Michael then it's somehow wrong to her to call him Mike--even if that's what he prefers. As for her own kids, I've always wondered why she didn't just give them generally nickname proof names instead of actual nicknames. Scott instead of "Joe" or Stacy instead of "Jen".
hyz-I love your statement! "I think it's presumptuous, and it's unfortunate that some people don't use names they love because others are so rude that they would insist upon calling a child or adult something other than what that person would prefer" You summed it up exactly. Now hopefully you'll never meet my MIL!
Lulu-your comment was funny to me. I've always thought middle names were how you tell if your mother is really mad!
Oh-and I love Helen!

J&H's mom - don't worry. We seriously considered not using Charles because we didn't love it and it was in the top 100 (wanted a name a little more unique, but not too unique!). Is it charles (1 syl) or char-rels (2 syl)? But we loved Charlie and needed a C name. Now, I find that Charles has actually grown on me. I think that can happen as your feelings about a name can change as you get to know a person with that name.

I had an Aunt Helen. Her real name was Ellen Gertrude but she preferred Helen. Never knew at what age she asserted her preference. Mind you, I like Ellen but can't say I like Gertrude!

MomtoChuck--I've always said it (and heard it) as Charles (1 syl, rhymes with Karl's). I have two uncles, two cousins, and a grandfather named Charles, and that's how they say/said it--and I just finished watching an episode of Little House on the Prairie, and I hear Charles there too. :D It's a rather drawn out syllable, but still just 1, I think. I love the name, but actually wouldn't use it because of so much family connection (not all positive).

Valerie--good point about Margarethe/Greta--I forgot about that! Gretel is in the same family--I wonder if that will ever make a comeback.... :)

Thanks, Louise. :) Your MIL might like me--I go by exactly what it says on my birth certificate! lol

Meg, Helen is darling. I have a hard time liking Renee personally. But Helen is sounding bright and fresh to me. Congrats!! :)

My observation on nn is it is not a matter of shortening a name as much as _softening_ it. George vs Georgie, Pablo vs Pablito, Mary vs Molly, Greta vs Gretchen, Charles vs Charlie

Oh, Meg! Congratulations! Is this your first? I love Helen, and I don't think it's poised to become too trendy, besides-it's a classic.
Of course, if you decide this early, it's less fun for us!

I think Tirzah hit it on the head about the whole nn issue, and of course, like practically everything else related to naming, it's subjective. My boys' names demonstrate my own irrational feelings on the subject, since I have a "just Jack," and a Henry who is also called Hank.
We used Jack partly because my husband is a Jonathan, but he didn't want his son to be a junior, and using John would have been odd. I like that they have that shared connection, though.
Mainly, though, I just don't think of Jack as a nn.
Does anyone else want to admit to placing names in the nickname or formal name category in a purely random way?
For example,I like Lucy, Greta, and Liam fine on their own, but I prefer Kate and Daisy and Will as nns.
Logical? Not really.... Anyone else want to confess?

After reading this article I actually ran into my friend Jessie (full name Jessie, not short for Jessica). I asked her why her parents gave her the name they did and she said that she's named after her grandfather Jesse. I'm normally not a fan of the nicknames as given names thing, but I thought this was a cute story with an actual meaning behind the name (as opposed to "we thought it sounded better")

Another example: I know someone named Tina whose parents are Chinese. They picked Tina because it's an English name that's easy for the family to say (as opposed to a full version like Christina which would be harder for them to pronounce)

Regarding spellings of Sasha: as far as I know, Sasha is Russian, Sacha is French, and Sascha is German.

I personally prefer nicknames that emerge 'naturally' for want of a better word. Of course I'd take potential nicknames into account when naming a child, for example I wouldn't use a name that has a nn I can't stand. On the other hand like someone said above I have enough trouble picking one name I like, let alone a matching formal/nn set.

Like I said though, I prefer unplanned nicknames that just emerge, whether or not they really relate to the name. I just feel like the story behind it creates a bit of intimacy. For example I have a William who I occassionally call Tooken/Tooks. It sort of developed from me calling him chicken, or chooks as a baby. One of my closest friends is called Beni by everyone in the group even though her real name is Suzanna. She didn't have a middle name, so we bestowed Banjamin on her as a joke and the nickname Beni stuck. We have another friend nameed Ben who amongst friends is consistently known as Stanly.

This is a little late in the list, but the question was about the origins of the name Stacy/Stacey. As a male name it has been used as a nickname for Eustace.

On the nickname vs full name side I have to say that I prefer nicknames that really are pet names, not the standard abbreviation of the "classical" long name - one example posted above was Josef being called Roo among other things. That, to me, implies a real closeness and a personal relationship history that goes far beyond the Will vs Bill vs William debate. And in reality, I have found, last names are often as much part of these nickname bases as first names. The only consistent theme across all this seems to be "never presume you can use another version of a name until you're told so or until you feel you know them well enough to be allowed to invent one." (in which case, I'd say, invent. Roo, or Banks, or whatever. That to me is the beauty of naming).

Sarah: "Hannah" is nickname-proof ("Hannah Banana" and the rather grating "Hanny" notwithstanding), but I've gone by a pet name with an origin similar to the "Tooks" thing you've described. Its use went beyond my immediate family, too; in fact, I was called it by everyone I knew until I got to college and was too scared to "correct" my professors.

Zoe: Joss Whedon, the television writer/director, is a Joseph.

Everyone: there is a brief article on genderbending names in this week's New York Times Magazine. You can read it at http://tinyurl.com/2vkerb -- note the concluding paragraph, which is perhaps relevant to this discussion.

My first post here, but I couldn't resist. Your discussions are always great, and it's so fun to find a place where my obsession with names isn't weird.

My grandfather was an Anthony, but always went by Bob. It's not entirely clear how he got that nn (I think from his friends), but it was only his siblings who ever called him Tony.

Meg -- I think Helen is a beautiful name. I have a neighbor named Helen who is a sophomore in high school. She's the only Helen I've ever known. And I agree, while the name may become more popular, I doubt it will skyrocket.

In 4th grade, my teacher called me Mandy b/c there was more than one Amanda in our class. My parents hated it! As soon as I hit 5th grade, they made sure everyone called me Amanda again.

I plan on naming my children names that don't really lend themsleves to nicknames. (Right now, I like Clay for a boy and Ainsley for a girl.) Maybe I'm a control freak, like my parents, but I want the name to be what I want it to be, not what friends or other relatives might come up with.

The nickname Joss was mentioned a bit earlier. It made me think of the new, young singer Joss Stone. Her real name is Joscelyn--that is not a typo.

J&H's mom: What is Daisy a nickname for?

Also to J&H's mom: You asked if this is my first. I've been hesitating about whether this is too personal to share. I had a baby just this past April, and she died when she was two days old. Her name was Hilary Marie.

I guess I'd better get some practice at figuring out what to say when people ask if this one is my first, or my only. Both "yes" and "no" feel wrong.

-Meg, I'm sorry for your loss.
-Laura, ITA on the formal names.
-Thanks for the name help around here. I had my second son a week ago, and so now I have a Felix Johann in addition to Xavier James. (Yes, Canucks, I chose XJ long before Justin Trudeau did so for his newborn son, one day older than my second one.)
-NYTimes Sunday Mag has an article on names flipping genders: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/magazine/28wwln-idealab-t.html?ref=magazine

My own children each have a nn in their names. Coby is really Jacob - that was a trough sell to certain members of dh's family. My daughter's fn is Molly (not Mary), but we call her Campbell with is her mn. Molly is after my dh's great-grandmother Mollie who was Jewish and so Mary (not a common Jewish name) never even came up as a possibility. I think that my dh's family would be surprised to hear that Molly is a nn for Mary. In fact, I think in the population at large, many people don't connect names like Jack/John, Molly/MAry, Sadie, Sally/Sarah. Most people aren't as obsessed as we are :)

Daisy has been used as a nickname for Margaret--through Marguerite, the French word for daisy. I think that's one of those names that's hard either way--if you just use Daisy, she may be like many of us who wish for a formal name; but if you use Margaret and call her Daisy, there will be some 'splainin' to do along the way...

I can see it being a reasonable nickname for Dana, though. Or Desiree?

for reasons that are not entirely clear, my wife is dead set against using names that easily beget nicknames - her reason for rejecting william/robert/joseph etc. We have a henry and jack is on the list for #2, as is patrick (but we don't like just pat). I like the fullname-nickname that laura's advocating.

I'm a Donald, grew up Donny and have been a Don since high school. I'm 28 and now only my mom, a few relatives and sometime my wife use Donny - nobody in the world says Donald, but I'm an attorney and use the full 'grown up' Donald on letters and court documents and other work related things. So I like the flexibility a name like that has. Like Bobby/Rob/Robert or Billy/Will/William. The nickname sounding names mentioned - jess, charlie, fred, libby, bonnie - would seem to be out of place in formal situations where people expect to hear a full name.

Meg, I'm very sorry about your first daughter.

Also love Helen. St. Helen sounds like such an interesting character, especially admired in England, where there were lots of medieval churches and holy wells named after her. I like Helena, pronounced HEL-enna, too, because of the lovely actress Helena Bonham Carter. Could be wrong, but I don't think either name will go into the mass-popular realm of an "Emily" or "Abigail".

Perhaps you're not interested in nicknames, but the traditional nickname for Helen and Ellen, "Nell", is SO adorable and Dickensian. To me it would be an added incentive to giving the name Helen. But for a more contemporary pet name, there's always "Hallie"...

By the way, I'm one of those who only likes nicknames that somehow "relate" to the formal name. The nickname doesn't have to start with the same letter, but it should contain at least SOME letters of the original name, i.e. Edward/Ned. Except in the case of old rhyming nicknames Mary/Mally/Molly/Polly. How stodgy is that?!

Incidentally, C and C's Mom, I love "Coby" for Jacob and have heard it once before-- there was an adorable actor in the Sixties, who appeared on television, things like the "Dick Van Dyke" show etc, whose name was Coby Something. I think he was Jewish and that Coby was short for Jacob. You have found the perfect solution to having a boy with a very popular name-- Jacob-- but an unusual and distinctive nickname. He'll never have to be "Jacob S." or "Jacob R." to distinguish from the other ones. Good job!

I have a friend who upon telling me she had named her son "Hank" I exclaimed
"Another Henry, I love it!"
"No, we knew we'd never call him that, so we just named him Hank."
It's cute enough I suppose, but really informal and I guess even if THEY never planned on calling him Henry, it does look better on a resume and opens up the options for later in life.

EO - thanks for the compliment. I think Coby is a fairly common nn for Jacob in Hebrew where Jacob is pronounced differently. Yah - cob (with a long o). I also really like the name Jacoby.

erin - Hank does seem very informal. I would have also guessed that he was a Henry.

Another cute story-

I know a little girl named Emi (pronounced like Emmy) whose Mom is Japanese and Dad is American. As far as I know it's a full name in Japan (even though it sounds like a nickname here) but they thought it would be a nice way to honor her Mom's heritage but still "fit in" with all of the Emmas/Emilys.

I am a Jennie, not a Jennifer. It never really bothered me to have just a nickname since I was named after my great aunt Jennie. I'm surprised how many people call me Jennifer, though. They just want to make it longer, I guess. Kind of defeats the purpose of a nickname.
We're kind of in a nickname quandry with our daughter Adelaide. We call her Ada 100% of the time, but wanted something "dressier" for the birth certificate. Well, my husbands parents don't like the name Ada. They like Addie, so that's what they call her. They see her every couple of months, so she doesn't hear it very often. Now she's 2 1/2 and old enough to start telling Grandma that she's NOT Addie. I honestly don't care if they call her Addie, Although I don't like the name since there are so many Maddies and Addisons running around. (Why we called her Ada in the first place.)
So do I tell Ada to let Grandma call her that, or let Ada tell Grandma that she does not like that name?

By the way, I *love* "Helen Helen Watermelon." I think I may choose the name just so I can call her that!

Jennie W.--I remember that Adelaide was Clementine for 5 days and family pressure made you change her name--right?I think you have been a wonderful sport--far better than I would have been.And if your daughter is called Ada by her parents and herself-I think your husband should remind his parents of that-clearly, nicely and definitively.They'll get over it and this is your choice for your child. When Ada gets to be 11 and wants to be called Delaide or some such--then I think, you three can chat.JMHO.

Meg- just to echo what others have said, I love the name Helen. It's such a classic name and very currently underused, IMHO. I can see it rising in popularity as more and more "grandmotherly" names start sounding fresh instead of old, but I doubt it will ever be super trendy.

Meg, I'm so sorry to hear about your loss -- but also very happy to hear your good news. I agree that Helen is gorgeous (and, like others here, I adore the nn Nell). Congrats!

Meg, I'm so very sorry about the loss of your first daughter. How brave and positive of you to be able to look forward to naming your new baby. Helen seems to me a particularly good choice, because the H and l have a feel of Hilary about them, while being a very different and distinctive name.
We lost our second child Daniel (he was stillborn, having died at full term) and our next child's middle name also has that faint echo - it is Ariel.
I know that awful dilemma of what to say when people ask impossible questions - sometimes it's best just not to answer..smile, ignore the question and say "We're very hapy to have her" or something like that. If someone then persisted I would answer honestly "He is our third child, but our last baby died" unless the questioner was heavily pregnant herself. Then I fudged it. People can be remarkably stupid about this particular question, even my aunt asked us: "Do you think you'll try for a third", to which the answer was:"This is our third." Duh!
Thinking of you Meg..