"What's up with the nicknames? Why not name your child what you are going to call them?"
- blog comment
I usually try to avoid taking sides in the great name debates. Traditional vs. creative, popular vs. unusual...there are valid arguments and stylish names on all sides. But when it comes to nicknames vs. full names on a birth certificate, I'm getting off the fence.
All else being equal, go with the full formal version.
"Why not name your child what you are going to call them?" For the same reasons that you have more than one kind of outfit in your closet. Different styles suit different occasions.
Many parents put formal names on birth certificates knowing full well that they won't call their child by that name. We all know plenty of them -- the Deborahs called Debbie, the Josephs called JoJo. Picture JoJo's parents way back when, reveling in the fun-loving nickname for their lively little boy. Now, 30 years later, JoJo's family and childhood friends may still call him that. But ask the folks who know him as an adult and they'll tell you they can't even imagine him as a JoJo. By the time he entered the working world he was introducing himself by the name on his resume, Joseph. He's hardly alone in wearing his full name like a suit and tie. Ever see Marty Scorsese or Chuck Heston listed in film credits? Martin and Charlton were deemed more suitable for the occasion.
So what happens to JoJo once Joseph takes over? With any luck the nickname lives on with a special status, as a mark of intimacy or long-standing relationships. When I was little I always loved hearing older relatives call my mother Ruth, "Ruthie." The nickname showed they'd been with her since she was a kid like me; it was a name that was always spoken with love. Some people even go through multiple nicknames at different life stages. Our Joseph may be a JoJo with his family, Joe with the college buddies, and Joseph as an adult professional. None of the names is right or wrong. Each one is a precious part of a life story and identity.
Is there a downside to choosing a formal version? Suppose, say, an Elizabeth wants stay Libby exclusively. That's seldom a problem. People are happy to call you whatever you call yourself. But suppose that Libby doesn't want what her parents want. Aha. This, I think, is the crux of the matter. "I want Libby on the birth certificate, otherwise she might decide she doesn't like it and wants to call herself Elizabeth instead!" May I gently suggest that is an argument in favor of full names, not against them? It's her name, not yours. If she ultimately decides that your preferred nickname doesn't fit -- or simply doesn't fit the occasion -- she'll be glad you left that choice in her hands.
Now, the caveats. Plenty of nicknames have become so well established as given names that they've earned their independence. Molly, Drew, Eliza and Jack are just a few of the many examples. Further, I wouldn't dream of telling parents to choose a name they actively dislike. If you love Libby but loathe Elizabeth, do what you've got to do. But if you're on the fence, I say err on the side of flexibility. An Elizabeth can always be Libby "for short," but a Libby can't be Elizabeth "for long."
Comments
Meg--
I am so sorry about the loss of your little girl. I think Keren, having been through that herself, has given you the best advice as to how to handle people's questions.
I love the name Helen; that was the name of my favorite aunt. Someone suggested Hallie as a nn--Helen's younger granddaughter, born a month after she died, is named Hallie in her memory. I'm sure all of the regulars here will be looking forward to the news of your new baby's arrival.
jennie w--As a grandmother, my advice it to DEFINITELY let Ada tell Grandma her name isn't Addie. I simply cannot imagine a grandma resisting that coming from her adorable (they're all adorable!) two-and-a-half year old grandchild. If one of my granddaughters told me she wanted to be called Poopy Face I would do it gladly it if would make her happy. In fact, one of them recently went through a few days of answering to nothing but Tinker Bell.
Seriously, if she continues to insist on Addie after the child herself expresses a preference, Ada may come to resent it if Grandma keeps it up anyway, and I would find a tactful way to raise that possibility with her. ("Her" meaning Grandma.)
I actually dont agree--my parents named me Yael but always always call me Ellie--I would much much rather just be Ellie--even in the professional world I introduce myself as Ellie because Yael is so hard to say
I know thats a different situation, but in general I do prefer nicknames over full names as long as its a real name in its own right (e.g. Nellie, Ginny and Liza are all fine but Lolo,Vi,or J not so much)
~Ellie
Meg,
I was really sorry to hear of your loss too. Our baby James Valentine was born in Jan 06 and only lived three days. I haven't said much about it on this site, because it's so name-specific, but I wanted to let you know you're not alone. I'm also very close friends with Keren and it's been good to be able to talk about it. We're trying for another but no success just yet.It's brave of you to try again and I'm so pleased all is going well. Helen is a great classic name, and I like it with the other two names.
Dear Valerie and Keren, I'm so sorry to hear about your losses. Thank you, and everyone, for your kind wishes.
I think I may settle on "she's an only child" as my generic answer.
Penny, I have a friend who retroactively endowed herself "Pennington," though she'd been born a Penny. As a Beth, I am deeply grateful not to have that be my only option (I publish under what I consider the much more dignified Elizabeth), and always felt sorry for the only-Lisas. Eo, I love love love Ned and wanted to use Edward for a boy to get to it, too! Marie, my niece is a Korean-American Emmi, for just the reasons you describe.
Meg, Valerie, and Keren, I too am so sorry about your babies. I also appreciate your being kind enough to share your thoughts about the wrong things to say. That shouldn't have to be your job amidst so much pain, of course, but it's a lovely gift to all of us, as is your willingness to share your stories.
Meg,
I'm so sorry for your loss, and I'm mortified that I asked a question that was so clearly none of my business.
Please accept my apologies.
Valerie & Keren-Beth put anything I might have attempted to say much more eloquently, so I'll just leave it at that.
Jennie W.-Since you don't care, I'd leave it up to Ada to correct Grandma. Many people connect nicknaming with closeness, so it may be an expression of her affection for her, although I believe you that she doesn't like Ada (My father continues to make faces at the old-fashioned names of all four of his grandsons).
If you do decide enough is enough, I agree with the previous poster about letting your husband do the gentle correcting. I absolutely love Ada, btw!
Take care, all!
PS Has anyone heard Girlean before?
I ran across it in the obits.(I have a feeling posters here won't find that as odd as others would).
All of my family and most of my friends from school days call me by my full name (Nicole) most of the time which drives me insane. I was always one of 5 in every class and known by my surname or initials.
I have tried to get them to use my preferred nn (which is one of the common nns) but it hasn't been overly successful. From university days on, I pretty much only went by my nn and put it on all documents, emails addresses etc and seems to be successful. I did swap spellings at some point though so you can kind of tell who knows me from when by what they call me.
Apparently part of the reason people don't like the nn is that it's too boyish (Nic/Nik). I even tend to use it in a business environment but have gone back to using my full name more and more as I get older (although I'm now almost 30). I find my nn doesn't match with my married surname at all so tend to use my full name when using that surname (I use both depending on the circumstance).
I was Nikki for awhile as younger child but very glad (cont
(cont) my parents didn't name me that - I do like the options. I did want to be called Elizabeth most of my childhood, but have grown to like my name, just not it's popularity in my age group. Maybe that's why I'm obsessed with names and their popularity.
My husband has an unusual nn for his fn and has never been known by the usual nn for his name. I seem to always call him by his full name though, only using the nn every now and then. I think it's because I like his full name so much!
J&H's mom - Not at all! Please, don't be sorry, there was nothing at all wrong with the question.
Meg, Valerie, and Keren - I'm very sorry for your losses and thank you for sharing your stories.
Meg - as a Helen myself I can attest that it's a great name. I'm in my late-twenties and rarely meet other Helens in my generation, but everyone seems to have a great-grandmother named Helen (I was named after a great-grandmother myself). I didn't particularly like my name when I was growing up, but I absolutely love it now. I think it's a classic name that sounds traditional and serious, but cute at the same time. I've also wondered why it hasn't become more popular along with other "grandmotherly" names, but maybe it has something to do with the massive oversaturation of the name in the older generations - maybe people still can't imagine it on a little girl?
Oh, and I've never used a nickname - in fact, I didn't even know that Nell was a nn for Helen until recently.
Just want to say that when you lose a baby naming him or her is one of the only 'normal' acts of parenthood that you get to carry out. So it's a particularly precious and special act, and a way in which other people can show their love for you and your baby - by praising and using his or her name.
No one can help asking the "wrong" question, and no one should feel mortified - what matters is the sensitivity shown when you do pick up that all is not well. Everyone here seems very sensitive and caring!
oh and maybe Heen hasn't picked up yet because it was popular in the 1960s and therefore still a mum's generation name - a bit like Karen which we discussed a few posts ago. recenly there was a brilliant comedy on British tv with three children caled Jake, Ben and Karen - I spent the whole programme thinking : She wouldn't be caled Karen! Why is she called Karen? She'd be called Ella or Abbie...
But Karen, and even more so Helen are sure to be on their way back. You'll be a trailblazer.
My dad's fn is Richard, but in college there were 5 Richards in his house; they all got nn's. Ln sounds like Derringer, a type of gun, Peter Gunn was a popular TV show at the time, so my mom met him as "Pete". Has been Pete the rest of his life, except with his family. Goes to show a nn can find a person no matter what.
I am due in 4 days with #3. Already have ds Archer & dd Sylvia. Really struggling with names this time. Will be a boy, mn Randall to honor my husband. Zane, Flynn, Clark on our short list, but haven't settled on anything. Dh insists it be easily spelled, pronounced, unequivocally male, and preferably not in top 500. Any suggestions? I'm starting to panic that we don't have "the name" on our list.
FWIW, we didn't narrow our list down this far with first two - we "meet" baby before making the final decision. (is that weird?)
Kagey - congrats! very exciting! I would caution against Flynn for a boy if you want "unequivocally male." I know a little girl named Flynn (with a twin sister Avery), and have heard it tossed about for girls a bit more these days. That said, I do love Clark with Archer and Sylvia. Coolness all around there. Best to you!
Also wanted to add that little girl Flynn is often called "Flynnie" in case you're interested! :)
Are any of these surname names ever unequivocally male? Just wondering - if Cameron and Parker can be girls' names then surely Clark could be too? Maybe you're better off wth something like Henry, Jacob, Zachary, Ben?
I don't think it's quite true that Helen was popular in the '60's. If you look it up on the Soc Sec page, it rose to popularity in the 1890's, and was insanely popular for decades. Then it began a long slow slide in the 1930's that continued until the late 80's. Since then it's been bopping around in the 300's. So in the 1960's it was more popular than it is now, but there wasn't any spike in that decade.
Here's another puzzle similar to the Helen puzzle. Why hasn't Sylvia come back, given the popularity of Olivia and Sophia?
Interestingly, I didn't choose either Hilary or Helen for the H or L sounds, and I arrived at them from very different directions.
This is actually a reason against Helen, for me. I don't want to be trying to recreate the sound of Hilary.
I actually favor the R sound, but all the R names are either over-used (recently, like Rachael, or a little while back, like Robin), or else I don't like them (like Rebecca and Roberta).
(Apologies to any Rebecca's and Roberta's here!)
I wonder if Sylvia hasn't come back because of that double consonant in the middle. Laura discussed that a while back.
Meg - My favorite category in the book is "Why Not?" - where you'll find Renata, Rosemary, and a couple other R girl names that might catch your eye. (I like Rose or Rosemary, but that's b/c my grandma is Rosemary.) My mom is Ruth, mn Ann, and hated being called Ruthanne as a girl. As for nn, I was surprised to meet a Ruthanne a couple years ago who went by Thanne. I thought that youthened an otherwise "older" name.
When we picked Sylvia, the "runner up" was Charlotte, but Sylvia won because we had already settled on Violet as the middle, and I loved how the V sounds worked together. Funny you should mention Sophia - a friend of mine heard me wrong when I called to tell her Sylvia's name, and the next thing I knew, my whole Bible study thought my dd's name was Sophia! Oops.
Thanks to may for letting me know that Flynn is starting to jump the gender line. DH won't like to hear that!
On the topic of Sylvia - I have a niece Sylvie, which I love though I don't like the name Sylvia. Sylvie feels fresh and cute, while Sylvia feels dated to me.
On the topic of nicknames - I have loved the name Katherine/Catherine since I was a little girl. Now, my married last name is Kl-------. Have thought about Cate as a potential first name but would rather have Catherine - just worried that Catherine Kl------- is too much. Thoughts?
How many syllables is "Kl-------"? If it's one -- for instance, "Klemp" -- I think there's no problem. Otherwise, there is the potential for spoonerism: Clatherine Kondike, Clatherine Konsky, etc.
Kagey- I just want to say that I love Zane. i think it's a great, strong name. You could get teasing for being "zaney"-- but how bad is that really? It's unusual, male and easy to pronounce.
I'm finding the Sylvia discussion very interesting. Like Susan, to me Sylvia feels like an old lady. But Sylvie sounds like a darling little girl or a fashionable young woman. I wonder why the difference?
Also, Susan, as Hannah said, the answer to your question depends on the number of syllables of your last name.
I always think that if one uses a surname, particularly one related to a profession, one should at least consider what it means. I teach two brothers called Tanner and Mason (and funnily enough their surname is a word meaning a working man) and every time I say Tanner, I think of a man tanning animal skins. Not an attractive image. I also know a young guy named Garrison (military post) who is way into being in musicals, and would be about the last person who'd choose to join the military, in my estimation.
Archer seems strong, courageous and noble, and Clark at least studious and literate (a good thing in my book) so I like those better.
One nickname-proof name is growing on me: Eli. Thoughts? Does it go with Henry, our other son?
There are some nice R names beyond Rachel and Rebecca - how about Rowan or Rowena, Romola or Remony?
I really like Eli and Henry together.
How about Romilly?
Eli and Henry sound great together.
Re: the Sylvia discussion, I've been noticing Sylvan on many name lists lately and wondered if this was a more contemporary take on Sylvia.
Don--I think Henry and Eli sound great together!
R names: How about Ramona?
Sylvie/Sylvia: The reasons given for preferring Sylvie over Sylvia are the same ones why I named my daughter Sophie instead of Sophia. Sophia still sounds old to me--I think of the character from the Golden Girls television series. But Sophie sounded young and fresh. Oddly enough, though, Sophia is the far more popular form and many people think that Sophie is a nn for Sophia. When I explain that Sophie IS her full name, they seem somewhat puzzled and don't seem to realize that Sophie is legitimate full name in its own right. And since I am someone who definitely would never give a child a nn as a full name, I find this troublesome.
My parents named me Katy, so "I'd never have to correct the teacher." Unfortunately, there's no grown-up version for me to fall back on. My son's name is Charles, known as Charlie, but also called Chuck by a few relatives. My mom disapproved of naming your kid one thing and calling him another, but I figure she's already had her chance to make that decision. This time, I'm letting Charlie decide when he's old enough.
I know a little girl named Sylvia Jane, so for me it's a kid's name again. (And I know a mom named Sylvie, btw.)
I want to add my vote for Rowena as an offbeat, lovely R name. It's got the literary and historical dimensions, and the sound is in keeping with other popular names while still being distinctive.
A website about its history:
http://medievalscotland.org/problem/names/rowan.shtml
How can one consider Molly, Jack, Eliza or Drew to be just nicknames.
For me the point of nicknames is a shortening affectionate way of relating to someone.
Molly/Mary Jack/John are the same syllable length and don't seem related to each other.
Personally I will choose a name that i love the lengthened version as much as the shortened nickname to avoid this issue.
For instance Anastasia is beautiful, one of my favourites but I detest Stacy with a passion. I'd never take the risk of my daughter wanting to go by Stacy.
[for the record, i'm a Sophie who wishes she was called Sophia!]
I just wanted to add that I LOVE the name Eli and think it sounds great with Henry!
jt--Sylvan is the male counterpart to Sylvia, in the same family as Sylvester and Silas, and is definitely not a new name, but I guess it may have a more contemporary sound to some. It's on our boy list, probably second in line right now to Rowan (the male counterpart to Rowena, and *not* traditionally a female name), tight in the running with Oliver and Linden. Sylvia, nn Sylvie, is near the top of our girls list, too.
Sharon, I wouldn't have known Sophie was a traditional full name--I usually see it listed as "variant of Sophia"--is that wrong? Either way, I think it's a lovely name.
Sophia, the names you list were historically nns--not stand-alones, even though they weren't always shorter and didn't share a lot of letters with the original. They all sound strong enough to me to stand on their own today, but if name origins and meanings are important to you, they'll always be "variant of Mary" or some such.
I like Henry and Eli together a lot, too.
re: Fred: I sort of feel like this is one that can stand on its own. I guess I think Freddie is okay as I went to high school with one.
re: Libby: I've met a few ranging in age from mid-20s to mid-40s. I've only met one Betsy who would be around 30 now.
Aiea: How do you pronounce this nickname? I'm curious because this is the name of a town in Hawai'i. (And one of my friends who moved to Chicago for awhile said she forgot how to pronounce it when she moved home--forgot what to do with all those vowels.)
Thanks, Hannah, for posting the link to the NYT magazine article. I found it really interesting except I think the author is ridiculous for insinuating that the U.S. has achieved gender equality. It's definitely interesting to hear about Logan shifting from a girls' name to a boys' name and that some do aim to give boys more androgynous names, but I think it's safe to say that there are far, far more giving girls androgynous names. And using it to put down third-world countries. For shame.
re: Zane, Flynn, and Clark: I think Clark is seen as a male name (Clark Kent, Clark Gable) so much so that I can't see it ever being a girls' name. Well... it would be difficult. Zane I could see crossing over much more easily. (Rhymes with Lane, Jane, etc.)
R names: Rayanne (not my style now but I loved it on My So-Called Life), Rhea, Rayna
On the topic of nicknames in general -- today at the playground I met an Ollie, female, short for Olivia. I have to say I found it pretty adorable and wondered if her parents had either kicked themselves for naming her something 4 or 5 girls in each of her class would be called, or ended up with a kid much more androgynous than the frilly Olivia. There was another little girl there named Allie, probably short for Alison or something, but her mom called her Cat. Also tres cute. That's what I call "nicknaming the nickname," and we do it in my house all the time (so our baby born in the year of the Rooster got nicknamed Roo which became Rooster-Gooster, which became Miss Goose, but about two weeks ago, she just turned around and told us that actually, she was Baby Firefly. All-righty then!).
Ooops, classes. Class-es, plural.
R names: so that's why the much-berated Renee', Meg! My mom had a friend named Raule, pronounced Raleigh, which isn't my style but is pretty original. There's also Ruth, which is solid if somewhat dull, though Ruthie's cute. And Ramona, as in the Pest. But Helen Rajani (if I remember correctly) really is lovely, so perhaps you should keep with a good thing?
Also, Eli IS a nickname, isn't it, for Elijah? It feels kind of 2001 to me, though it is also cute in its own right: I just know a bunch of early grade school Elis.
R names- I know a Rythea (Ri-THEE-a, not Rye...), or how about Regina, Raphaella (my favorite), Rosalie, Rosalind, Rosamund, Rhiannon, Rhoda (not pretty, but interesting)...
Eli and Elijah are two different (and good!) people in the Old Testament--so both names can and do stand alone, but I'm sure there are many Elijahs who use "Eli" as a nickname, too. Elliot is an old nickname for those, actually-- the "-ot" is a French diminuitive. You see French male names like Jacquot, Charlot, today, on the same principle--Charlot was what Charlemagne's son was called, for example, as in "Little Charles." Charlot is also what Charlie Chaplin is called in French.
This is slightly OT but I need the advice of the people here, and I can't figure out any other way to get it. I enjoy reading about and discussing names, but am now faced with naming my third child - due in a few days (!!!). Our first two are Susannah and Thomas, both of whom have family surnames as their middle names (family tradition). This one will also have a family name, but we are naming her after my mother's family. My mom's of French descent, and it has been a real struggle to find names that we like that are not outrageous. We have decided, we think, on Eloise.
What do you think of Eloise? I like that it is a traditional name that is not common, and I also like the nickname potential. We have identified Elle, Ellie, Lulu and Lu as possible nicknames, but I would appreciate hearing others.
Please be honest - it you hate it, please say so. We can't count on people we know to tell us their honest opinion - except my father-in-law, who let us know in no uncertain terms how much he hates it.
I think you have to go formal on a birth certificate (in case little one is secretary of the UN). Plus for reading the posts I have to add that nicknames are also hugely cultural and may get lost in translation. For example, Australians nn very differently to Americans or even Brits. We will even nn a nn! Would you know Caz, Baz and Daz were Caroline, Barry and David? So I think for your name to travel well you do need a formal name.
I LOVE Eloise it is our girl's name for baby #2. We are going to call her Ella for short.
Addie - I think Eloise goes nicely with your other two. Another nickname possibility is LoLo. I have a siser Laura who was nn'ed LoLo as a kid.
Well, I like Eloise; however, I am surrounded by the nicknames of Eloise. I know 4 Ellas, 2 Elles and 3 Elizabeths that go by Ellie. One of the Elle's middle name is Louise. In fact, I thought her first name was Eloise. Turns out her Mom just likes using both names. All of these girls are 4 and under. So, I'm sort of weary of Eloise, even though I don't actually know any!
We were considering a name in the Louise/Louisa/Eloise family--it was a finalist. I think Tirzah is right, all the Ellies and Ellas out there make it seem a little more familiar than you'd think--but if you use the full name or a nickname like Lou or Lulu or Lola or Isa, I think it's a fine name and I like how it's a nod to your French heritage, too.
I like Eloise very much, and think it goes fine with Susannah and Thomas. I'm not sure why I like Eloise so much, given how much I dislike Louise, but it sounds much more graceful and sweet to me. I wouldn't necessarily go for a nn with it, though--like Tirzah said, little girls with those nns are everywhere, so it would be like (imho)robbing little Eloise of her lovely and unique name! But in any event, it looks like a winner to me. :) Congratulations!!
I love Eloise! (I like Louise too). Other nns: Lo, Iz, Izzy (or Isi/y as I've seen it spelled). I'm not a parent of a young child, so I can 't speak to the popularity of Ellie and Elle, but I think it is an elegant name that easily fits both child and adult and will be flexible for her. I don't think it needs a nickname - it's a beautiful stand-alone!
On R names--I just remembered a girl named Raluca that I went to college with. I believe her parents were Russian/Romanian, and she was a model, very attractive, so maybe she "made" the name, but I always thought it was charming.
And if you like the R sound, what about names that begin with vowels but have a strong early R, like Aurelia, Iris, Arden, Arabella, Araminta, Ariana, Arwen, Erin, etc.?
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