"What's up with the nicknames? Why not name your child what you are going to call them?"
- blog comment
I usually try to avoid taking sides in the great name debates. Traditional vs. creative, popular vs. unusual...there are valid arguments and stylish names on all sides. But when it comes to nicknames vs. full names on a birth certificate, I'm getting off the fence.
All else being equal, go with the full formal version.
"Why not name your child what you are going to call them?" For the same reasons that you have more than one kind of outfit in your closet. Different styles suit different occasions.
Many parents put formal names on birth certificates knowing full well that they won't call their child by that name. We all know plenty of them -- the Deborahs called Debbie, the Josephs called JoJo. Picture JoJo's parents way back when, reveling in the fun-loving nickname for their lively little boy. Now, 30 years later, JoJo's family and childhood friends may still call him that. But ask the folks who know him as an adult and they'll tell you they can't even imagine him as a JoJo. By the time he entered the working world he was introducing himself by the name on his resume, Joseph. He's hardly alone in wearing his full name like a suit and tie. Ever see Marty Scorsese or Chuck Heston listed in film credits? Martin and Charlton were deemed more suitable for the occasion.
So what happens to JoJo once Joseph takes over? With any luck the nickname lives on with a special status, as a mark of intimacy or long-standing relationships. When I was little I always loved hearing older relatives call my mother Ruth, "Ruthie." The nickname showed they'd been with her since she was a kid like me; it was a name that was always spoken with love. Some people even go through multiple nicknames at different life stages. Our Joseph may be a JoJo with his family, Joe with the college buddies, and Joseph as an adult professional. None of the names is right or wrong. Each one is a precious part of a life story and identity.
Is there a downside to choosing a formal version? Suppose, say, an Elizabeth wants stay Libby exclusively. That's seldom a problem. People are happy to call you whatever you call yourself. But suppose that Libby doesn't want what her parents want. Aha. This, I think, is the crux of the matter. "I want Libby on the birth certificate, otherwise she might decide she doesn't like it and wants to call herself Elizabeth instead!" May I gently suggest that is an argument in favor of full names, not against them? It's her name, not yours. If she ultimately decides that your preferred nickname doesn't fit -- or simply doesn't fit the occasion -- she'll be glad you left that choice in her hands.
Now, the caveats. Plenty of nicknames have become so well established as given names that they've earned their independence. Molly, Drew, Eliza and Jack are just a few of the many examples. Further, I wouldn't dream of telling parents to choose a name they actively dislike. If you love Libby but loathe Elizabeth, do what you've got to do. But if you're on the fence, I say err on the side of flexibility. An Elizabeth can always be Libby "for short," but a Libby can't be Elizabeth "for long."
Comments
Addie: Eloise is lovely--very pretty! Don't let your father-in-law talk you out of it! I get very cranky when grandparents think they get a "vote" on the name!
hyz: I think that Sophie and Sophia are both from the Greek "sophos", meaning wisdom. In Italy, say, Sophia is the more common form, while in France and Germany, Sophie is more commonly used. But please enlighten me if I'm wrong, baby-naming gurus! (I'll still love my daughter's name!)
For me, Eloise is indelibly colored by Kay Thompson's Eloise books. Kind of like the Linus problem, except I don't expect there are nearly as many people who have that association.
Love this topic - and I totally agree, Laura! I love the options of having a formal name and a nickname option, etc. I've got names on my list for my soon-to-be daughter that would obviously give a nickname option and some that don't, but I'm one of those who prefer their formal name to their childhood/family nickname now, as an adult so I love that my parents gave me that option.
I adore Eloise-pretty,spunky and classic. I,too, would use the whole name to preserve the distinctiveness. I thought of the Kay Thompson "Eloise" book immediately and think that it adds to the charm. It is a name I suggested to my son for his baby when they were looking for input.I wonder if it is rising in popularity, I haven't looked.
Addie--
I'd like to add my vote for Eloise. I, too, immediately thought of the Kay Thompson books. I think she and Ian Falconer's newer Olivia are terrific role models (well, not in *every* respect) for little girls: creative, imaginative, self-reliant, confident. Eloise is a lovely name--it flows off the tongue, echoes your French heritage and has lots of nn possibilities, if that's important to you. And someday bring her to the Plaza and show her where "Eloise" lives. Go for it!
Another vote for Eloise - gorgeous name. She may end up as another Ellie, but what an elegat option to have hanging in the closet!
I think there's a real dilemma if you love a name like Kate or Alfie but hate the full formal version - I love both of those, but could never contemplate Katherine or Alfred. Maybe then the best thing to do is to use the nickname as a middle name it ca be pulled into service if neccessary and balanced wth something more serious. Our daughter would definitely have been Phoebe Kate if the combination of Kate + surname not made a very famous person. Instead we chose Catrin.
I'm the one who asked about Linus in the last thread. Can't say I've heard of the Eloise books, though. I like the name. I was interested in the responses to my question that said that names ending in -us were very trendy. I guess I didn't realize that. Cass is actually a family name in my partner's family--Cass rather than Cassius. But I too prefer having a formal name to choose from. And there is the obvious rhyme for Cass that's a bit of a concern in terms of schoolyard taunts. But what do folks think about the history of the name Cassius? I'm thinking about the way it was renounced by Muhammed Ali as a relic of a racist past. Is that not very well known? Or so removed that the name is not associated with that history any more?
It isn't time yet for Sylvia to sound "fresh" again to young parents. Sylvia's high point of use since 1880 in the USA was #50 on the SSA list in 1937. The most typical Sylvia in the USA is turning 70 this year. Most young Americans know an elderly Sylvia, so they still associate the name with grey hair & wrinkles. Sophia's high point of use before its recent rise was way back in 1882. Olivia's was in the 1940s, but it never rose about #240. So those names don't have the connotations of "elderliness" that Sylvia does.
Most young parents just won't give their daughters names if they personally knew more than one older woman who had the name. The majority of women from a name's previous high point have to have died before today's young parents were 10 for them to see it as being "fresh" and "retro" instead of "old and ugly".
Sylvie is able to sound good because it never was used much, even as a nickname for Sylvia. 20 years ago many of the same parents who loved Chelsea and Kelsie though Elsie was ugly.
i want some nice pakistani muslims names for baby boy
Re: Tanner/ Garrison/ profession names. With Archer as our first DS, we joked about naming this one Fletcher, since that is the person who makes the arrows! :)
As for the Sylvia/Sylvie ideas - the only one I know is a friend of my grandma's - and she goes by Sylvie, so Sylvie sounds older to me! Plus, I think Sylvia sounds more sophisticated. If my dd goes by a nn I'm okay with that, but wanted the more formal option. Also, it means "woods", and as big hikers/campers, we liked that association. DD is 2, and constantly begs to go outside, so it definitely fits.
I'm a Katherine who went by Katie as a girl, now mostly Kate, so I really like the options of having different nn's.
To Addie: love Eloise, and its nn options.
Re: Eli & henry - i like both of these. Makes me think early American inventors, bright young men who could fix anything.
Re: grandparents & "voting" on the name - we don't tell anyone we know ANY of the names we consider! Only DD and I get votes
Thurs is my due date. going a little stir crazy!
Jane--
Go the library or your local bookstore and read "Eloise," especially if you have a little girl. It's a classic delight. Author is Kay Thompson.
Re Cassius: Although I'm old enough to remember when Muhammad Ali changed his name from Cassius Clay, what Cassius will always evoke for me, and probably many others, is Shakespeare's "Yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look. [often misquoted as 'a mean and hungry look] He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous," from "Julius Caesar." Cassius is one of the villains of the play, who organizes the conspiracy and convinces Brutus to assassinate Caesar. Considering the pervasiveness of Shakespeare in the English-speaking world, it's not a name I would use.
Here is my naming or nicknaming dilemma... I have fallen in love with the name Gwen. I've always been a fan of given formal names and using nicknames. However, I don't love Gweneth and I dislike Gwendolyn. I like the name Gwyneth, but Gwyn- and not Gwen- would be the likelier nickname. And so, I've nearly settled on just 'Gwen' (if it's a girl). Any thoughts?
MK, in your shoes, I think I would do Gwyneth nn Gwen. Considering that Polly can be a nn for Mary, and Jack for John, I don't see that you'd be stuck with Gwyn. :) I think Gwyneth/Gwen are both lovely, and it would be good to have the flexibility--Gwen does sound like a nn to me, not a full name.
MK--I think Gwyneth is a beautiful name. Going along with this thread, give the full name and call her Gwen from the start. If you do that, I very much doubt people will call her Gwyn, and she'll have the option of the full name later on if she ever wants it. I think Gwyn would more likely come into play if you call her by her full name, but it sounds like you don't want to do that. I think later in life she'll thank you for Gwyneth!
Jane-- Isn't "Cassius" a name from the Classical period? Roman, isn't it? I thought Cassius Clay jettisoned it when he converted to Islam. I don't think of Cassius as being a remnant of a racist past. It's true that slaves were sometimes given "classical" names like "Julius", etc., but all the more reason for those names to be rescued from that heritage, I would think.
I THINK one of the royals-- could it be Lady Helen Windsor?-- named her sons "Cassius" and "Columbus" which I find amusing and fun. Although the inevitable nickname "Cash" as in 'cold, hard', doesn't appeal...
To M K: You pick the spelling of the nn - my parents used Katie, not Katy. Anastasia becomes Stacy, even though there's no C in the original. And how did people get Molly from Mary, way back when? You should feel free to use Gwyneth and write Gwen as her nn, at least until she goes through her funky goth phase and insists on Gwyn (or something creepier!).
MK: I agree that Gwen could work for Gwyneth, but I also think that Gwen can stand as a name on its own.
sadef: I would recommend checking out some other sites that list names by origin; I don't think many of us are experts on Pakistani Muslim names. Plus, I'm sure there are tons and we wouldn't know which ones would appeal to you.
On nicknames vs. formal names: My husband used to work with a Terry (M) who has in his forties. He had always wished he had a longer, more formal name, instead of just a nn. He finally decided to legally change his name. If I recall correctly his top two choices were Terrell and Terrance. I don't recall which one he went with though.
Eloise is my mother's name. Her inability to pronounce it as a child led to the nickname Easy or E.Z. It works for her somehow.
My father is a Leonard, nn Bach. And I'm an Erin nicknamed E. Sometimes nicknames just happen.
I actually was settled on Gwyneth for a long time, with the nn Gwen. Perhaps the hormones are getting the better of me because I feel differently about it every day. But thanks for the input. I'm feeling better about the idea of Gwyneth again.
M K--Just saw your post. Very interesting-- for years (pre-Paltrow) "Gwyneth" was my favorite name! You don't especially like "Gweneth", but how about "Gwenith"? It has an entirely separate meaning from Gwyneth. The name "Gwenith" means "wheat", according to my Welsh name book.
Other Welsh names that would get you to the nickname "Gwen" are: "Gwennant"-- white stream
"Gwennol"-- swallow
"Gwenonwy-- ?
There are others, but they're even more obscure. Admittedly, perhaps to our American ears not quite as satisfactory.
A Welsh name book could give you all the myriad alternatives. I only offer this as I think people will inevitably associate the name with the actress, who will be prominent for years to come. If only there were other famous Gwyneths! Ms. Paltrow, while pretty and talented, is a little too impressed with her own wonderfulness to make her name one I could live with. But this may not bug you, and it IS a beautiful name...
I think Gwen can stand alone. The problem with Gwyneth is that you're going to hear "Like Gwyneth Paltrow"?" over and over again. That would irritate me. Well, at least she's a good actor with a stable family life!
The association with Gwyneth Paltrow doesn't both me, especially if she is actually goes by Gwen. Even though I love Gwen and like Gwyneth, I haven't heard any other variation that I care for much. I figure if she can find a place (figuratively speaking) between Gwen Stefani and Gwyneth Paltrow, I'll be happy.
A very nice Gwen name is "Gwenllian"--it's old (borne by princesses in the 1200s), used by Welsh women and girls, but hardly ever seen in the US. The LL have a particular sort of sound in spoken Welsh, but in English you can say "GWEN-lee-un" and that's fine too.
Lulu--that does look like a pleasant alternative. Do you know what the proper pronunciation is? Is it something like Gwen-thlin? If so, is there a chance that it is simply the traditional Welsh spelling of the Anglicized Gwendolyn? In any event, I like it, but I might be hesitant to use it if I didn't have some Welsh connection, personally.
No, it's definitely a completely Welsh, and completely different name from Gwendolen. (Heads up about the spelling there--the "en" ending is feminine in Welsh names; "yn" endings are more often found in male names, so "Gwendolyn" and "Bronwyn" look funny if you're used to that convention.)
The Welsh pronunciation of LL is hard to represent by typing-- I think of it as a "slurpy inhale," and your "thl" isn't too far off either, but honestly, nobody would expect a non-Welsh speaker to get it right. GWEN-lee-un is fine.
I think you're right, hyz--it's a very Welsh name, and many people will assume and ask about the Welsh connection. Names like Bronwen and Evan have lost some of that. I can easily imagine a Bronwen Chang, just because it was a name her parents liked, but a Gwenllian Chang or a Ceridwen Chang, yeah, I'd assume a Welsh parent or grandparent, or time spent in Wales, or a Welsh historian in the family, something like that.
As an Allison I have an old-fashioned, dimunitive name for Alice. Allison is "Little Alice" in an old form of German but I guess it is one of those that have come into name-dom as a "real" name.
The Gwenllian thing brings up something that I'd bumped up against in the past. Originally I was gung ho about trying to find a German or eastern European name from my heritage, but I became uncomfortable with it. There aren't all that many that truly travel well (at least not without some misspellings), and I didn't want to change the spelling OR pronunciation. That threw the choices back to various names I don't like, or something universal like Anna, which would still be "misprounounced" in an American way ("Ann-a" instead of "Ah-na"). Even if I could get people to pronounce it the way I wanted, I thought it would look pretentious and forced. So, I abandoned the whole thing and stuck with the English-speaking elements of my heritage (English/Irish). It seems like a loss, but I don't see a satisfactory way around it. I'm a stickler for pronunciation, so I guess I similarly wouldn't be that comfortable with using Gwenllian and abandoning the traditional pronunciation.
hyz--
I bumped up against that same problem. I taught French, and would have loved the name Nicole (this is back in the 60s, before it became so popular). The thing is, I wanted the French pronunciation--[nee-cull], but I knew it would end up as the American [nih-cole], so it was never really in consideration.
Yup, that's why I left Gwenllian off my list, hyz. I actually saw it Anglicized once in a book as something like "Gwenthyan" but that doesn't approximate that trickly Welsh "LL" sound, so it bothered me...
Anyway, MK, if you're happy with your choice, that's the main thing. Sometimes I hate to bring up these side issues because one doesn't want to "spoil" someone else's love of or affinity for a name. That is such a precious thing!
Well, here's the thing: The Welsh have a pretty realistic sense of their own quirky language and how impossible some sounds are for outsiders. From one website:
"'ll' is perhaps best not attempted by non-Welsh speakers; pronounce it by placing the tongue as if to pronounce 'l' and then hiss, making a sort of aspirant 'cl' or 'hl' sound. Treat as one letter."
Even Shakespeare named a Welsh character Fluellen, to approximate Llewellyn. If Shakespeare gives up, so can other English speakers, I figure.
Funny about Gwenllian, though--the most famous bearer of the name may never have learned how to pronounce it herself! Princess Gwenllian (1282-1337) never knew her parents, and lived most of her life protected in an English convent, where her name was spelled "Wentliane" and "Wencilian."
Lulu (or Llulu)
Did you deliberately sign that last post with a double L? Or was it a slip :o)? Are you Welsh?
Llulu (lol), you make a good point. It's funny what will turn us off names--an accepted "mispronunciation" dating back to the 1200s surely shouldn't bother a reasonable person, but I'm not always reasonable. :)
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who's a stickler like this, though. If the name you love is "nee-cull", Nicole is just not the same. :) I think I've resigned to saving my ethnic names for pets--if you meet a big pair of dogs someday named Jaromir (Jaro) and Kasimir (Kaz), think of me. :)
MK, I think that a person could do worse than Gwyneth Paltrow and Gwen Stefani as associations, and I agree that, going by Gwen, you're not likely to be totally inundated with Paltrow comments. I think it'll be great! :)
I did spell it with three Ls on purpose! Seemed appropriate to the topic. To answer the question, I'm Welsh by ancestry. I remember my great-grandda, a former coal miner, singing in Welsh (his first language); my parents were married in a Welsh church; my surname is Welsh; I can fake my way through some Welsh hymns (GWLAD! GWLAD!); that kind of thing.
Thanks for the advice, everyone! We do like Eloise, and almost certainly not use Elle or Ellie ourselves - I agree that they are very common. I just would like the child herself to have options later in life; it's one reason I love names that can be versatile. Who knows what her tastes and sensibilities will be like?
And we're just in the nick of time - my doctor decided today to induce me tomorrow.
MZ, if you're willing to make the Gwin-to-Gwen switch with Gwyneth, what about Guinevere, nn Gwen? That way you get around the "like Gwyneth Paltrow?" question, and you get an Arthurian queen (OK, an adulterous one) instead of a celebrity as a namesake.
Oh, and Eo, I was cracking up at what you said about that Gwyneth's being "impressed with her own wonderfulness." So true. I remember a review of Great Expectations that lamented the fact that "Ms . Paltrow always appears to be sprinkling fairy dust on her own head."
I'm pretty late on the discussion, and I'm sorry I haven't finished reading everyone's comments. I promise to repent later, after I say what I wanted to say.
To me, there is a difference between nicknames like Jack and Molly, and dimunitives like Addie and Sammy. Way back when parents had a whole 10 names to choose from, the nicknames were essential to tell everyone apart. Basically, the nicknames were *designed* to serve the named their entire lives, whatever personality the named happen to have. That's why, to me, "nicknames" like Jack, Greta, Kate and such would be fine on a birth certificate but Ellie, Maddie or whatever just would not.
Addie, good luck tomorrow!
I'm indifferent to Eloise. I've never met one and only know the name from the books. And I know this sounds funny but its particular string of letters looks odd to me--maybe because it's such an unusual combination. I'd also agree that the Ella/Ellie nicknames have flooded the playgrounds. I like Louise/Louisa more so and think they go better with Susannah and Thomas.
Someone was asking how one could derive Molly from Mary. It's a good question. In fact I think someone else may already have addressed it. Thinking purely about the pronunciation aspect, I remember that when trying to shorten my sister Sarah's name as a kid, Sare always felt awkward. So I can see how it might have become Sal or Sally in the old days (which it did). Likewise, Derek can become Del even now in Britain.
I can see therefore Mary becoming Mal or Mel and eventually Moll/ Molly, and from there to Polly, although that last stage is quite a leap. Any other thoughts anyone?
Regarding the little boy Garrison being into musical theatre instead of war games. For me, the name Garrison evokes Garrison Keillor, the longtime Praire Home Companion radio show host. He's all about creative writing and musical theatre. So, to me, that would be an example of a boy growing perfectly into his name! I wonder if his parents are Garrison Keillor fans.
Addie, I like Eloise, but I'm not sure it goes with Susannah and Thomas (both of which I like very much.)
I think Louisa is lovely, and it hasn't become super common or popular like some of the other old fashioned names. I think of Louisa May Alcott when I hear the name, and I just love it more! I think it would be adorable on a little girl and would age well.
I think rhyming nns were just the thing back then--it was an accepted way of altering a name. Hence, Meg to Peg, Molly to Polly, Rob to Bob, Will/Bill, Rick/Dick/Hick, etc. I think it's right that they had to work to differentiate all the Williams and Richards and Marys from each other, so they just got a little creative. :)
Slightly off-topic about the name "Molly" - this happens to be my dog's name (I didn't name her though). Wherever I go and meet other dogs, there's always at least one other Molly! It seems to me that this is the most popular name for bitches in England (the canine type, I hasten to add). Have any of my fellow Brits experienced the same?
I do quite wonder what it is that makes Molly such a preferred choice for dogowners.
I know that in some languages (ex: Japanese) the r and l sounds are exactly the same. Linguistically, then, it makes sense for the more difficult English r sound to simplify to the easier l.
I recently read a name book in which the author really dug into the linguistic reasons for nicknames. I forget the author's name, but the book is "American Given Names." I had to smile at some of his entries (he tends to assume that there should be a logical explanation for why a name is popular), but since he did all of his research before he died in 1980 I found his point of view very refreshing and interesting. For example, to expain Jack and Hank: people used to add the dimunitive -kin to some names, making John Johnkin and Henry Henrikin or something like that. From there the names got shortened to the one-syllable Jack and Hank.
Anna, I don't know about Molly, but Max and Maggie seem to be in every dog park here, along with Cody, Maisie, and Ellie.
And on the pet topic, my other plan for a future set is Mairsie Doats, Doesie Doats, and little Lambsie Divey. :) They can be Jaromir and Casimir's sisters. :)
Sadef:
I know an Imran (middle name Mohsin), whose father is a Pakistani Muslim. I like his name quite a bit.
Would a list of Arabic names help?
http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/ara.php
Here's a list of Pakistani names, too, though I'm not sure how accurate it is.
http://www.babynamesworld.com/category-pakistani-names.html
And here's another:
http://www.just-think-it.com/sbn/pakist-m.htm
Again, I got these mostly from googling, so they might not be totally accurate, though I know that the first site (www.behindthename.com) is a pretty good one.
Neat, Llulu! My grandfather was a Welsh coal miner too, but he died on this side of the pond of lung disease no doubt contracted in the mines...
My Dad and I thought my given name was Welsh as well. Turns out it's a word meaning "razor" in Welsh! Ack!! I was inconsolable until I discovered the exact same word means "art" or "artfulness" in Manx Gaelic! But it's a word only and not really used as a name.
lizpenn: How funny-- that reviewer should be nicknamed "razor" for that hilarious and "sharp" comment!
Has anyone by chance heard of Dare Wright? The beautiful model/actress of the Fifties who lived an extraordinary fantasy life and wrote a series of enchanting children's books starting with "The Lonely Doll"? I love her name-"Dare"- and had never seen it used before...
hyz- don't forget Kiddley Divey! :)
Maybe the Molly thing is a local phenomenon, as I know at least 10 other Mollys. Your mentions of Max and Maggie made me think, maybe it's the letter "M"?
BTW, when I was younger I always wanted to have a big grey tomcat and name him "Vladimir", although I had more Russian names lined up for possible siblings. I guess I've just always been a bit strange....
MK--Your Gwen dilemma resonates with my family.At the very beginning of this week's blog discussion , I mentioned my sister(age 50), who has disliked the informality of her name for 35 years.She is Wendy and would have preferred to have Gwendolyn as a grown-up option. Yes, Gwen could stand on its own, but my input would be that the more formal option might be appreciated by your daughter, as life goes on. I was Teri-Sue for much of my childhood--and I am thankful that my formal name was Terese Suzanne , so that I could morph into adulthood with dignity and new nicknames.
Yes, Anna, I'm not British but here in the States "Molly" seems to be popular for animals as well. One of our cats is named Molly, but we also didn't name her. She was a "foster" kitty already named and loved by the animal shelter staff.
My theory is that Molly seems a sweet, friendly name that humans "glom" onto for their beloved pets. Her naughty sister, whom we also adopted, was named "Socks" by the staff, but we gradually changed that to "Tess" as it suited her AND seemed so much more congruent with "Molly"...
Anna, I'm with you. :) I have a fluffy red-haired rabbit now with a very Irish name. I was going to bestow one of my Slavic ones upon him, but they just seemed to grave for his red fluffiness. A grey tom Vlad (the impaler?) would be perfect. The terror of all the mice around. :) And I'm pretty sure I've met some dog Mollies here, too, but nowhere near Max and Maggie.
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