"What's up with the nicknames? Why not name your child what you are going to call them?"
- blog comment
I usually try to avoid taking sides in the great name debates. Traditional vs. creative, popular vs. unusual...there are valid arguments and stylish names on all sides. But when it comes to nicknames vs. full names on a birth certificate, I'm getting off the fence.
All else being equal, go with the full formal version.
"Why not name your child what you are going to call them?" For the same reasons that you have more than one kind of outfit in your closet. Different styles suit different occasions.
Many parents put formal names on birth certificates knowing full well that they won't call their child by that name. We all know plenty of them -- the Deborahs called Debbie, the Josephs called JoJo. Picture JoJo's parents way back when, reveling in the fun-loving nickname for their lively little boy. Now, 30 years later, JoJo's family and childhood friends may still call him that. But ask the folks who know him as an adult and they'll tell you they can't even imagine him as a JoJo. By the time he entered the working world he was introducing himself by the name on his resume, Joseph. He's hardly alone in wearing his full name like a suit and tie. Ever see Marty Scorsese or Chuck Heston listed in film credits? Martin and Charlton were deemed more suitable for the occasion.
So what happens to JoJo once Joseph takes over? With any luck the nickname lives on with a special status, as a mark of intimacy or long-standing relationships. When I was little I always loved hearing older relatives call my mother Ruth, "Ruthie." The nickname showed they'd been with her since she was a kid like me; it was a name that was always spoken with love. Some people even go through multiple nicknames at different life stages. Our Joseph may be a JoJo with his family, Joe with the college buddies, and Joseph as an adult professional. None of the names is right or wrong. Each one is a precious part of a life story and identity.
Is there a downside to choosing a formal version? Suppose, say, an Elizabeth wants stay Libby exclusively. That's seldom a problem. People are happy to call you whatever you call yourself. But suppose that Libby doesn't want what her parents want. Aha. This, I think, is the crux of the matter. "I want Libby on the birth certificate, otherwise she might decide she doesn't like it and wants to call herself Elizabeth instead!" May I gently suggest that is an argument in favor of full names, not against them? It's her name, not yours. If she ultimately decides that your preferred nickname doesn't fit -- or simply doesn't fit the occasion -- she'll be glad you left that choice in her hands.
Now, the caveats. Plenty of nicknames have become so well established as given names that they've earned their independence. Molly, Drew, Eliza and Jack are just a few of the many examples. Further, I wouldn't dream of telling parents to choose a name they actively dislike. If you love Libby but loathe Elizabeth, do what you've got to do. But if you're on the fence, I say err on the side of flexibility. An Elizabeth can always be Libby "for short," but a Libby can't be Elizabeth "for long."
Comments
I'm just laughing at the post about dogs named Molly. Molly is off my list because of the 5 Dog Rule: I can't know more than 5 dogs with the name. My husband just rolls his eyes. The 5 Dog Rule has knocked a lot of perfectly good names off my list, so if we keep having trouble finding a name I might have to make it the 10 Dog Rule instead. I think people are using more "human" names for their pets than they once did.
FWIW, I do NOT think of dogs when I meet a little girl named Molly, so I don't mean to insult any of you! If you named your child Princess or Barkley (as opposed to Barclay), that would be another story. (Side note -- I have met a little girl called Fifi, but the family is Scandinavian and I think that in their home country it's a normal nn for her full name -- Josephine, I believe -- and not a poodle name at all.)
Best wishes for tomorrow, Addie! I like the name Eloise too. :)
Laurie Ann--I have a similar thing, but I might be more picky--a name is out if ANY animals I've closely known had it, or more than one animal I was acquainted with had it. My sister in law *stole* Forrest for her cat (you know, before she and I ever met, but still... :) , which was at the top of my list even *despite* Gump. And now it's ruined forever for me. Hmph. Also, some names sound too close for comfort. For instance, I like Else, Elsa, and Ilsa, but they all sound too close to one of our dogs, Elke. I'd hate for people to think we named the kid after the dog. :)
According to one source, in NY, Maggie is the #1 girl dog name, followed by Molly at #2: (http://www.geocities.com/dog_names/most_popular_dog_names.html)
But on this list of insured dogs, Molly is more popular than Maggie:
http://www.favorite-puppy-names.com/popular-dog-names.html
Here's the latter's top list for girl dogs:
1 Molly
2 Maggie
3 Daisy
4 Lucy
5 Sadie
6 Ginger
7 Chloe
8 Bailey
9 Sophie
10 Zoe
Lots of fun, spunky names!
I think a two-syllable name ending in -y or -ie is great for calling, "Here, Sukie!" or whatever.Nine of those ten names have that sort of ending.
Fascinating discussion! My sister is a Kathryn-goes-by-Katie. In her 2nd grade class, there was another Katie, so the teacher made everyone call my sister Kathryn. Would you put up a fuss if this were your child?
Also, re: nicknames, DH wanted to use his grandpa Randy's (Randolph) name when we were naming our son, so we decided on Randolph for a mn and chose Oliver for a first name. Then, sometime before he was born, we discovered that Randolph was actually grandpa's mn, and his first name was...Oliver.
We call him Ollie, and DH's grandma always puts it in quotations when she writes it (on his birthday card, for example - Happy Birthday "Ollie"!). Do you suppose she does this for all nicknames? Is this some punctuation rule I was not aware of?
Would you stay away from boys' names that have 'girly' nns? I know of an Atticus (nn Attie/Addie), and just met a little male Israel (nn Izzie) at the park. Hmmm...
Sister...Here in Boston/Brookline the top 6 girl dog names are-in order: Lucy, Maggie, Molly,Zoe&Daisy(tie) and Lily...It would be so sweetly ,retro to name a dog Rover or Spot, I guess. Our dog growing up was Player--because he played with us. I can't see that happening anymore.;)
Sister to doggy Max - thanks for that list! Personally, I wouldn't name a dog any of these names (my Molly is from a RSPCA centre) but rather go for something unusual that you wouldn't use for your children.
My boss's Labrador is called Cassandra - I always thought, what a waste! As I think that's a great name.
So I can see where Laurie Anne's 5 dog rule came from. On the other hand, if you truly love a name and it is "only" taken by a pet, could one try and overlook it? As I think it's less severe than a name being taken up by a relative's /friend's child.
hyz - tell me, what's your rabbit's name???
The great fun of naming pets is being able to give them names we love but could never give a human... fantastical place names, literary characters. DH and I had such fun going through Greek and Roman gods and goddesses, musicians, etc in an effort to name our dog. We ended up settling on Babar - kids love her, and it's something fun, and not a name we would ever consider for a child. (and kids are drawn to her for the name - an added plus!)
Anna--his name is Flannery. Sometimes I call him Flannery O'Fluffypants, but not in public--it would embarrass us both. ;) He's a Satin Angora rabbit, and soft like flannel, redheaded like and Irishman, and definitely has very fluffy pants. :) Some sources say the literal meaning is "red eyebrows", or descendant of the red warrior, which also fits him.
I think I need several hundred animals to use all the names I won't be able to use on children. I have a list a mile long, and would never consider Bailey or Daisy, etc. But perhaps for many people, Zoe and Sadie and Molly fit that exact category--names they love but are too bold for their tastes in children. You never know....
Hyz- lol,that's fabulous!
A few scattered thoughts...
Meg, Keren and Valerie thank you for sharing your stories. Valerie, I feel reticent to say this (for fear of not putting it quite right) but to me James Valentine is a perfect blend of strength and elegance.
Keren: Oh my goodness! I too watched and loved that sitcom but instantly thought the exact same: Ben, Jake and Karen - really? Ben, Jake and Sophie is believable or Ella, Lucy, Evie, Leah even Amy but Karen? Hmm...
Addie: it's bizarre but before I read Laura's blog today the name Eloise was floating around my head. Eo mentioned that Lady Helen Taylor's sons are Colombus and Cassius and I think it is appropriate to add that her daughters are Eloise and Estella - both embodiments of stately elegance in my opinion...
Final thought: Marjorie mentioned Gertrude up-thread so I thought I'd relay a Telegraph birth annoucement that caught my eye last week:
Frank John brother for Agnes, Wilfred, Edith, Albert and Gertrude (you couldn't make it up!!!)
Valerie--I've been told I "put too much thought" into naming "just a rabbit". The way I see it, opportunities to name things are rare enough in life--I have to make the most of it! lol.
Frank -- nickname or full name? Apparently, it was originally a nickname for Francis or Franklin; however, it has been a stand alone name since the 17th century.
Addie,
Hope I'm not too late! I loooooove Eloise. And I think Lulu is absolutely adorable for a nickname. So charming and unusual. Plus everybody knows how to spell it. That's my vote.
Hope everything goes well tomorrow!!!!!!
Addie - I think Eloise is very pretty, and I don't believe I know anyone with that name (an added bonus). Best of luck at the hospital! :)
As the owner of a dog named Zoe, I must say I'm a bit disappointed to see it's the (tied for) #4 name for dogs in the Boston area. And here I thought I was being original. I wonder if others put as much effort into naming their pets as we do?
I love Eloise! I wish more men had read the books so they'd understand the quirky charm of it. That's why I can't use it. Good luck tomorrow, Addie, with your little Eloise!
I also am a big fan of the name Pandora, but that one's been nixed as well. Apparently everyone would ask about her "box," which would be bad, admittedly, but I really don't think kids young enough to be teasing based on names know that myth!
Anyway, I'm hoping he likes it enough to use it on the puppy we plan on getting when this lease is up. I think the nn Pan for a dog is the cutest thing ever....and who would tease a dog about a mythological character's exploits?
Mary/Molly - it's quite British to have a nickname that ends in l..Del for Derek; Lol for Laurence, Tel for terry for example. So Mol/Mary, Sal/Sarah etc.
Another example of an expanded nn..my mother in law was named Minnie, but always hated the name. She went through phases of calling herself Minna and even Minerva, but evertually settled fr Min. We all oved the name Minnie, which realy seemed to suit her, but didn't dare put it on her graestone because we knew she'd have been cross. So Min it was.
The claim that "most young Americans know an elderly Sylvia" struck me as odd, so I ran the numbers.
Even at the height of its popularity in 1937, less than half a percent of girls were being named Sylvia. With a generous assumption that the young person knows ten women near or above the age of 70, there is a 96% chance AGAINST knowing a Sylvia.
Even if, say, you attend a church with a lot of old people, your church would have to have more than 150 women in the right age range for you to have even a 50% chance of knowing an elderly Sylvia.
I think a media-based explanation may be more likely -- perhaps a TV character, where lots of people would get exposed to the same Sylvia. A kind of magnification effect.
You really think that a "young person knowing ten women near or above the age of 70" is a GENEROUS assumption? I didn't mean by "knowing" that one was friends with her or knew the person WELL -- I just mean that they have been introduced to her by name. I would be appalled to think that most people under the age of 35 don't even know the names of 10 women over the age of 65! I would think most young Americans would have more than 10 female relatives over the age of 65. Have we really become that age segregated a culture? Have you really never even been _introduced_ to a woman named Sylvia?
FWIW, I love the names Sylvia and Sylvie and think they're ripe for a comeback - they sound like all the "little old lady" names that are en vogue right now and they utilize unusual letters y and v. In fact, never mind I said anything...I don't want anyone else deciding they like it, too. :)
About pet names: My sons named our first dog (a feisty black and tan German Shepherd). They didn't want a "person" name and called her Laser. Arriving at the cottage one weekend I thought I was seeing double - the new neighbours had almost a mirror image of our dog. They were just pulling out in the boat as I arrived and we waved. They called out to me "what is your dog's name?" Laser I replied, as in Laser beam, what's yours? "Nitro, they replied -as in nitroglycerine!"
Our second shepherd was more blonde and with a much more benign personality; her name? - Echo.
Oh yes, the present dog across the road is Molly!
My first post, but I'm driving my husband crazy with all my naming questions and concerns...
About nicknames... As "just Bobbi," I say go with the formal version. Although I don't want to be Roberta, something longer would be nice (and something a little more feminine for that matter)!
As for Sylvie/Sylvia, I think they're great. A fresher alternative to Sophia/Sophie.
Off topic...I'm not pregnant yet, but I'm wondering what names might "go with" my son's name, Reece Charles. What "feeling" do you associate with this name? I think most people see it as a different style than I do. Popularity isn't a huge deal (Reece is considered adventurous in my circle)! Here's what we like so far...
Girls: Vivian (my fave), Ivy and Camilla (nn Millie after Grandma Mildred)
Boys: Calvin (nn Cal), Vincent, Davis, Paul
Whoa, CKE. I hope we can disagree without becoming uncivil. I don't really want to get into a fight about age-segregated culture, etc., but I believe I am right about the numbers.
In 1940 the average number of children per family in the U.S. was barely more than 2. So, more than 10 female relatives over the age of 65? May be true for rural families, but not for the nation as a whole.
But number of relatives hardly matters, because of what I said in the second half of my post. You'd have to know 150 women in the age group to even hit a 50% chance of knowing a Sylvia. A little more calculating shows that you'd have to know 400 of them to hit a probability of 80%.
(These calculations are based on an assumption of .4% of women in the age group being named Sylvia -- an over-estimate, since it's based on the peak year.)
Meg--come on, like no one knows the names of their grandparents' friends? Or old ladies from their neighborhood or church/synagogue/mosque/temple? Or their friends' grandparents? Or more distant relatives? Or old ladies who taught them piano/math/whatever? I feel like even a distant connection to someone with a name has a lot to do with one's impression of the name overall (unless it's already ubercommon...).
And, on topic, I agree that nns should be only nns, but there are some that ppl don't realize are nns anymore, like Polly for Mary or Willa for Wilhelmina, and these I think it would be kinda weird to still use as a nn. Although I would err on the side of formal/informal, like John/Jack not just Jack...assuming there's no reason not to.
And to me, a NYCer, Eloise is the little girl from the Plaza. And the ugly girl from Harry Potter. But subobjectively, I like the sound and the nns...good luck!
And I'm sorry but how is Tirzah pronounced? (It looks sooo pretty and I like the biblical connotations!)
Well, I guess I'd be ok with just Willa...although I prefer it as a nn.
Ack...reverse my last post.
Tirzah is pronounced "TEER-za". If you were to say it with the middle name Joy, it would sound a lot like "Tears of Joy." It has a great meaning "delightful" and great references in the Bible. In Song of Solomon, it says "You are as beautiful as Tirzah, my darling, lovely as Jerusalem." (That refers to Tirzah, the city.) In Numbers, Tirzah, the person, along with her sisters, appealed to Moses to allow women to own land. Moses agreed, making Tirzah one of the first female landowners in written history. You can see the link for more info (most of which, I submitted!). In case you are interested, the other sisters' names were Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah and Milcah. How's that for a sib set. I'm glad I didn't get Hoglah!
Thanx for the info on your name, Tirzah!
Cleveland Kent Adams, I have never been introduced to a woman named Sylvia.
And prepare to be appalled; I also don't know 10 women over the age of 65. This doesn't strike me as "sad," just a reflection on the fact that I am young, my mother's generation hasn't reached that age yet, and my grandmother's generation is dying off. I'm sure that, all too soon, I will ONLY know women over the age of 65. And by then, nursing homes will probably be full of crochety old Madisons being paid dutiful visits by their grandchildren, Wilhelmina and Sylvester.
Just thought I'd throw in my pet names because I don't have any people babies to excitely share names of.
We definitely use people names as much as we can. We have a Sebastian (cat, also known as Bas, Baz, Seb, St. Bastian and St B), Sophie (rabbit), James (dog) and Ruby (cat). My last rabbit was named Hamish and had a brother named Thomas.
I can't resist popping in on the "10 women over 65"... It is true. Most American kids don't have it. Sad, methinks. Very sad. I am completely boggled by the amount of kids I have met who did not know more than 2 or 3. Their own grandparents - maybe, and if you're real lucky, a neighbor. It took me a while to really assimalate (sp?) the idea and even longer to believe it, but life circumstances have proved it.
About Sylvia... the only one I've ever known as an adult died at the age of 80+ sometime between 1990 and 1996 I think. I now know one that is 14 or so. Kind of surprises me because I also worked in a nursing home for 4 years and never met one there.
O, wait. Yes I did. She is about 50.
I have two aunts named Sylvia - aged 65+ and also a friend of 40-something. I also know two girls called Sylvie both under ten, one Dutch one American. Can see Sylvie catching on big time - a great blend of Olivia,Sophie, it's got that 'v' sound..
Also think that Valerie (the name, not the person!)is ging to get a boost from the Mark Ronson song.
Tirzah can also be pronounced TUR-za, which is the way my SIL and BIL pronounce it for my one-year-old niece. I guess that's as much to do with British versus US pronunciation as anything.
Hi all, I haven't been on here for a while but I just wanted to report my best friend's new baby girl's name: Imogen Grace
It has really grown on me. If it was a boy it would have been Ezekiel Timothy (totally different if you ask me!)
So exciting!
So, no one taking a flier on the name "Dare"? I'd love to know if it strikes anyone else as fresh and interesting. Guess it doesn't fit in with today's trends, certainly not the ones for the tried and true traditionals or the 'frilliana" names...
When Alice Dare Wright was born in 1914, it must have been extremely "daring" for her artist mother to call her by her middle name, originally a surname. Imagine most people would think of it as an abstract "quality" name, a la "Temperance", or "Pleasant".
In view of the fact that little "Dare" grew into a photographer/artist with an ethereal, always elusive and somewhat 'lost' quality, the name seems esp. poignant.
Oh well. Louise, I love Imogen. Not as popular here in the U.S. as in Britain. It's darling!
I'm another one that doesn't personally know 10 women over the age of 65. Just like Julia, my grandparents' generation is gone (most great-aunts and one grandmother died before I was born), and my parents generation aren't there yet. I didn't know many of my grandparents' friends, and most people I work with retire at 65 or less. I don't go to church. I'm active in my community, but most of my adult neighbors are 25-60. I've never met a Sylvia, to my knowledge. My strongest association with the name is Sylvia Plath, which has its ups and downs, but which I would consider mostly positive.
Speaking of Temperance, I've just started reading Kathy Reichs' mystery series featuring forensic anthropologist Temperance Brennan, and Temperance's sister is named Harriet. I realize these are fictional characters, but the mismatch in names fairly jumped off the page.
Temperance and Harriet??
I know some Sylvia's at my church, actually, all of them hispanic, none of them elderly. I wonder if immigration has made the name more frequently encountered?
Oh, meant to say--Meg, thanks for running the numbers on Sylvia. Very interesting.
Eo--I like Dare. I think it works, without being too "out there", rhymes with things like Claire, and I immediately thought of Adair (which I like).
Bobbi--I think Reece and Calvin go nicely, a better match than your other boy names. Reece sounds mischievous but cute to me--I think it's been colored by Malcom in the Middle for me, too. Before that, I think I might've considered it a more WASP-y name (not in a bad way)--similar to Reed, which I love. I think any of your girl names go with it. Of course, I'm partial to Ivy, but I think the other two might actually go better with Reece, since they are more names than nouns, if you know what I mean.
Sarah--Our cat is also named Sebastian, nn Spazdakitty. My favorite pet names belong to some friends who let their sons name their dogs Superman & Batman. I chuckle everytime I see one of the parents on their porch calling Superman.
On knowing older people... We wanted to name our second daughter "Maeve Patrick," but most everyone disliked the boy's name (named for my father & grandfather) in the middle spot. Except two elderly friends, Sister Mary Patrick and Sister Mary William, who thought it a great idea (and, as Sr. M. William pointed out hopefully, a head start toward a vocation).
I should add, we went for Maeve Patrick and never regretted it.
On the initial topic: nobody's mentioned having a formal name for the sake of the baptism and a nickname for everyday use. Our third has the baptismal name of Brigid, but we call her Bridie. My mom was never called anything but Betty, but was baptized Elizabeth. This isn't such a big deal these days I realize, but we attend at a pretty trad parish, where presenting the baby at the font as "Madycyn" would raise eyebrows.
Had to chime in about women over 65. Growing up I most definitely knew more than 10, but this was a conscious effort on my mom's part. (It was also easy because we grew up in Florida!) I thought I'd list 10 that I currently know because many have really great names!
Margaret
Judith
Dorothy
Lois
Eleanor
Willa
Sadie
Boots (nn of neightbor. Can't remember her real name though!)
Opal
Mary
Not a Sylvia in the bunch!
o.h.--I like Maeve! So, did you name her Maeve Patrick? I forgot about the nun connection, but my first impression was that a clearly male name, even in the middle, was a strong and unusual statement. I knew a Sister John, though, and my high school art teacher (50+ woman) had the fn Michael, nn Mikie. When I hear girls named Casey or Shane, I don't think the parents wanted a boy, but I have to say that's the first thing I thought of when I heard Mikie's fn.
On Dare, I like the sound, but I'd always wonder if it was one of those names that reflects the circumstances of the child's conception: "We named our first daughter Leila because she was conceived on our Hawaiian honeymoon; Dare was named because...uh..." TMI!
It could be a good nickname for Dara, Daria, even Dorothea, maybe. (Or Adair, as someone mentioned upthread.)
I'm afraid a lot of kids today, including my own daughter, don't know many older women. I grew up living with my grandmother and knew all her friends, and our church and neighborhood had very mixed-age activities--but that's not true for where we are now. I think it was very, very good for me to know those older women when I was young, so this isn't what I would choose for my kid, but it's not easy to remedy, either. Hard to recruit a cadre of great-aunties to play the role!
o.h.--whoops--posted before I saw your update! And I should clarify to say I wouldn't have the "they must've wanted a boy" thought for Maeve Patrick--it comes across as a namesake thing, which is apparently right!
Brigid nn Bridie is great--I don't think I've heard of anyone using that nn in America in at least the past 50 years--it gives it real charm, and she can always be Brigid if she wants later.
So let me guess--you guys are Scandinavian? :p lol. I love the Irish names.
My mom gave me her confirmation name as my fn--it was a bit of an unusual name at the time, but I don't know if it raised any eyebrows at my baptism.
My bro is just Max, and people always want to make him into Maxwell or Maximillion (for some reason, he's always wanted to MAX-imize it and become Maximilliano) Coincidentally, my brother in law is Maxwell, called Max. My future kids will have 2 Uncle Maxes-- my husband and I refer to them as "Mex" in the plural.
Well, let's see, happy to break the trends here. One of my dearest friends is a 40-year-old Sylvia, whom I've known since we were 18 and who looks like a supermodel. So to me it is a sexy and vibrant name. Another of my dearest friends is 65, and I work in academe where lots of different generations are tumbled together. The over-65 names I know are Linda, Barbara, Mary Jane, Susan, etc. -- the "old lady" names are in their 80s and 90s.
"Dare" is cute; I knew a man with that name. It was his given name which I thought was somewhat odd (I figured he had hip-ified the given name "Darrell").
We always used what we thought were absurdly flowery names for our pets: Suzanne, Henrietta, Cornelia, Gwendolyn,
and for kicks, a cat named just John.
Eloise: adorable. Several on the playground over here in SF but it still sounds fresh.
Katharine- thanks for the positive feedback on our son's name. We really love it too.
Hyz- you can NEVER put too much thought into naming a rabbit.
I think I might know all of the elderly Sylvias that some of you don't know. I am a clergy member and therefore interact with people of EVERY age group on a constant basis and know quite a few Sylvias - all 75+ years old. In my own family, I have a great aunt Sylvia who is married to a Sylvan. My sister and I always got a kick out of that growing up.
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