"What's up with the nicknames? Why not name your child what you are going to call them?"
- blog comment
I usually try to avoid taking sides in the great name debates. Traditional vs. creative, popular vs. unusual...there are valid arguments and stylish names on all sides. But when it comes to nicknames vs. full names on a birth certificate, I'm getting off the fence.
All else being equal, go with the full formal version.
"Why not name your child what you are going to call them?" For the same reasons that you have more than one kind of outfit in your closet. Different styles suit different occasions.
Many parents put formal names on birth certificates knowing full well that they won't call their child by that name. We all know plenty of them -- the Deborahs called Debbie, the Josephs called JoJo. Picture JoJo's parents way back when, reveling in the fun-loving nickname for their lively little boy. Now, 30 years later, JoJo's family and childhood friends may still call him that. But ask the folks who know him as an adult and they'll tell you they can't even imagine him as a JoJo. By the time he entered the working world he was introducing himself by the name on his resume, Joseph. He's hardly alone in wearing his full name like a suit and tie. Ever see Marty Scorsese or Chuck Heston listed in film credits? Martin and Charlton were deemed more suitable for the occasion.
So what happens to JoJo once Joseph takes over? With any luck the nickname lives on with a special status, as a mark of intimacy or long-standing relationships. When I was little I always loved hearing older relatives call my mother Ruth, "Ruthie." The nickname showed they'd been with her since she was a kid like me; it was a name that was always spoken with love. Some people even go through multiple nicknames at different life stages. Our Joseph may be a JoJo with his family, Joe with the college buddies, and Joseph as an adult professional. None of the names is right or wrong. Each one is a precious part of a life story and identity.
Is there a downside to choosing a formal version? Suppose, say, an Elizabeth wants stay Libby exclusively. That's seldom a problem. People are happy to call you whatever you call yourself. But suppose that Libby doesn't want what her parents want. Aha. This, I think, is the crux of the matter. "I want Libby on the birth certificate, otherwise she might decide she doesn't like it and wants to call herself Elizabeth instead!" May I gently suggest that is an argument in favor of full names, not against them? It's her name, not yours. If she ultimately decides that your preferred nickname doesn't fit -- or simply doesn't fit the occasion -- she'll be glad you left that choice in her hands.
Now, the caveats. Plenty of nicknames have become so well established as given names that they've earned their independence. Molly, Drew, Eliza and Jack are just a few of the many examples. Further, I wouldn't dream of telling parents to choose a name they actively dislike. If you love Libby but loathe Elizabeth, do what you've got to do. But if you're on the fence, I say err on the side of flexibility. An Elizabeth can always be Libby "for short," but a Libby can't be Elizabeth "for long."
Comments
I have been to China, in 2002 and last January: Young Chinese who now speak (or are learning) English take English names, to make it easier for tourists and in business. People I have dealt with were:
Anny
Jasmine (real name Xiaomin pronounced Shiao'-min)
Sarah (real name Xiaoqi pronounced Shiao'-chee)
Maggie
Helen
Grace
Grace
and, surprise! Sylvia (real name Lee Jun)
I had less to do with men - they did not seem to change their names as much, though I did know one Patrick.
Just chiming in as yet another person who has never met a Sylvia, young or old. But it still feels old to me.
Sylvia is really fresh sounding to me, particularly the nn Sylvie.
...And to hijack a bit again today, I'm wondering how people feel about the name Gwenyth (nn Gwen) or if that seems too much like a creative spelling (which I'm not a fan of). I've found it a few places as a variant of Gwyneth. Gwyneth seems a bit more elegant to me, but Gwenyth makes a little more sense with Gwen. Also, I feel like it is one of those names that will inevitably get misspelled no matter what, so that doesn't bother me much. Any thoughts?
MK: I have to say that I don't think there is any problem going from Gwyneth to Gwen, simply because you are using the traditional spelling of each, and Gwyneth has all of the letters in Gwen. I think Gwenyth is ok if you like it. I think you should go with the long and short forms you like best, and people will get the connection.
MK, I have a friend whose daughter's name is Gwenyth, nickname Gwen. I suspect people will still ask about Gwyneth Paltrow if they see or hear the name, because most people don't pay that much attention to spelling. That being said, I think that if you want the nickname Gwen, Gwenyth is a better choice than Gwyneth.
Lily: Thanks...
I really just anticipate using Gwen for the most part. I do like the idea of having a more formal name to fall back on. That being said, it is surprising to see how much the name Gwen hits the top 1000 over the last 100 years (so it is really more than just a nn). Gwyneth only makes the list one year (2004) in the last 100.
MK--I personally would definitely stick with the more common recognized spelling. I realize that these are probably all phonetic Anglicizations to some extent, so maybe Gwyneth isn't necessarily more "correct" than Gwinnith or whatever--but I'd still stick with the more accepted spelling. It will make Gwen's life easier, and you won't look kre8iv. If you look at http://www.thinkbabynames.com/babyname.php?g=0&n=Gwenyth&a=1 , you will see a comparison of all spellings of Gwyneth--and only Gwyneth is ever popular enough to make the chart.
I totally agree with Lily that since you would be using the common spelling of both (Gwyneth and Gwen), almost nobody will even blink at Gwen as opposed to Gwyn, especially if you always call her Gwen, and don't switch back and forth between it and the long version.
I agree you can't put too much thought into naming pets.
My current cats are named after well-known sci-fi characters. My pet alpacas are named after an Incan god and an ancient South American civilisation as a nod to their heritage. All their names really suit them. As cats (and alpacas)live many years, all going well, I like to pick unusual names that I wouldn't necessarily go for on kids but still love.
Our tropical fish on the other hand sometimes get slightly more crazy and often-gender bending names. We figure 5 or so years isn't too long to live with a crazy name...... and a good way to use up some nice names to which just wouldn't get to the top of the kids list.
The Sylvias I know are 50+. Remember, we aren't talking about *children* knowing the names of older people. We are talking about adults in their childbearing years, the bulk of whom are men and women in their 20's to mid-40's.
Also, a 50% chance of knowing an older Sylvia is pretty high. That would mean that either the mother or the father would know an older Sylvia.
Maggie and Daisy must have held top spots as dog names for quite awhile. Growing up, my next-door-neighbor dogs on either side had these names. I would gladly use Maggie and Daisy as little girl nns today, even though I associate Maggie with a St. Bernard tall enough to drool on my wee head.
Tirzah, I think we're all talking about adults knowing the name, not children. I'm near the middle of your childbearing age range, and don't know any Sylvias that I can recall. Also remember, using Meg's numbers, it is a *generous* calculation to say that someone today who knows *150* women in the right age range will have a 50% chance of knowing a Sylvia. I don't know anywhere near 150 women over 65, unless you count all the famous people from that time period I ever heard of--and of course that's not a good random sample, and leads to magnification of certain names, etc. My DH meets a steady stream of older people at work--I'll have to ask him if he runs into Sylvias....
I need more stuff to name! Enbee, you're right - fish really give you the most naming opportunity.
Here's my list of perfect pet-names-that-are-too-out-there-for-baby-names: November, Patience, Sampson, Athena, Japheth, and Andromeda. And Saffron. And Bellatrix.
I really like the name Dare. It reminds me of Virginia Dare the first English baby born here in the U.S. Of course, I live in NC so that is a common association - we have Dare County and various Virginia Dare associations in the Coastal Region.
The only trouble with Dare (for me) is that my dh's ln is Darer. Imagine a baby named Dare Darer :)
Oh, and I know one Sylvia. She's 3.
On the 10 women over 65 topic, I think I can easily handle that thanks to my grandmother's plethora of friends (I was born and raised in FL which - as someone pointed out - is a likely place to find retirees.
Lorraine
Jean
Mary (multiple)
Dorothy (multiple) nn Dot or Dottie
Jaqueline
Diane
Joan (one pronounced like Joan and one like JoAnn)
Jeanie/Jean
Ruth
Norma
Pat
Linda
Katherine
But I can't think of a single Sylvia. Huh.
The only Sylvia I know is 30something and her name is actually Silvia - I think it's a common Hispanic name. She is actually from Spain.
Here's my list of over 65s, and it's really plumbing the depths of my memory--it includes relatives I've never met, and acquaintances I knew 20+ years ago. Beyond this, I'd have to start grasping at vague memories of what my friends' grandparents were named, or grandparents' friends:
Virginia
Margaret
Rose
Jean
Beverly
Sarah
Arlene
Lois
Tiddle (nn?)
Dodie (might be under 65)
Polly (might be under 65)
Geri (might be under 65)
Irene (might be under 65)
Carol (might be under 65)
Martha (name taken as a nun)
Miriam (name taken as a nun)
I'll have to ask my parents the names of more of their aunts, etc.
Oh, and just talked to DH--he knows one Sylvia who's 36 and Italian, and thinks he *may* have once met a Sylvia over 65 at work. He works at a hospital and meets many older patients every day.
We are becoming extremely age segregated, aren't we? From the time children go off to daycare, they are put in age-specific rooms and classes and activities until they are past twenty. The few adults they encounter are Ms. LN, Coach LN, Professor LN. And fewer people connect with their neighbors enough to know whether the lady next door is a Sylvia or not.
It's also interesting--I know a lot more *men* over the age of 65 than women. I had male college and grad school profs who would be over 65 now, male doctors and dentists, a few older male colleagues at work, and my parents' older colleagues. Almost all the older females I know are relatives, neighbors, and a few nurses or secretaries my parents worked with, and teachers I knew 20 years ago who were in their 40s then. It's a much smaller pool to draw from.
Maybe our daughters will have a more intergenerational pool of acquaintances than we do, because by the time they are of childbearing years, aging women in the professional and public sphere will be far more common.
I think you all are using a too-strict definition of "knowing" when you are thinking about "knowing" Sylvias. Surely everyone has been introduced during their lives to a many more people than the number of people they can spontaneously name when asked. It's a well-known fact in the psychology of memory that recall is much harder than recognition. We all would recognize a great many more people than we could spontaneously list from memory. And I think that all of the persons with a particular name one has met in his or her life help to form one's image of the name, whether or not one can link that name to a particular face at the moment. And I still would find it incredible if it's really true that most people today in their 20s and 30s in the USA today have never been _introduced_ to over 150 women who are now over the age of 65. I would imagine I've been introduced to thousands of people in my lifetime. I couldn't list but a tiny fraction of them, but my knowledge of them has affected my image of their names.
CKE--"I couldn't list but a tiny fraction of them, but my knowledge of them has affected my image of their names."
Well, yes and no, right? I may have been introduced to 10 older women named Mary in my life (I can't think of *any*, but it's possible), but if you say the name Mary, and *all* I can think of is Mary Ingalls, 2 Marys my age, and Mary Kate Olson, then have those 10 theoretical Marys really affected my image of the name? At least in the way that you mentioned originally, which is that [Sylvia] isn't ready for a comeback because most childbearing people still know a grey and wrinkled [Sylvia]? The names I wouldn't give because they seem "old" to me are things like Nancy, Barbara, Louise, Susan, Joan, Martha, Terry, Linda, Diane, Ronda, Patricia... surely names that were big between 1945-1960. These are all real acquaintances. I also have a "feeling" I have known more of them in that age range than I can recall--but I think that feeling is bolstered by knowing actual multiple women named that.
I don't remember knowing any Sylvias. But in part I think this is because most of adults I met as a child/young adult (my parents and granparents friends, neighbors, professionals etc) were Mr. and Mrs. X, I never knew their first names. It's so ingrained in me to call my elders this way that I call my older neighbors by their last name.
The female names I remember are:
Betty
Sharon
Patricia
Diane
Lil (nn for Lilian)
Rose
Marian
Cecile
Corinne
Virginia
Catherine (I'm named after her)
Ellie (nn for Eleanor)
Brownie (nn for Brownette)
I have a small family so that may play a part in knowing fewer first names.
My parents are in their early 60s so I know more names in that range and I work in an office with a number of people over 60, but most of my older coworkers are men and I have no idea what their spouses are named.
I see where you're coming from, Cleveland Kent Evans. I don't remember ever meeting a Gertrude or an Albert but they're old people to me.
I don't personally know ten people over 65 - in fact I'd be pushed to think of five that I know by name. But I suppose I will have heard names floating about - even if it's just an old lady at the shopping centre shouting on her pal Betty, or whatever.
On the pet names thing - do you think that names given to pets on a large scale will eventually start getting used on kids? I heard somewhere that people 'try out' names on their pets (which kind of ties in with what was said above about giving our pets names we want to give our kids but don't have the guts to!) until they become more familiar. It makes me think of all the Archies, Alfies, Oscars, Daisys, Poppys etc. in the UK charts at the mo. I've also seen several Brunos in the Times birth announcements, which I think is just fab.
Ollivani's mention of the Times announcements made me decide to go and check the Telegraph announcements, as regulars to this blog know it can be a fertile source of names. And guess what - the first baby is named...
Daire Lilly Costello. So there's a Dare for you, more or less!
To hyz: Yes, I believe all the Marys you have known or known of, real and fictional, have affected your image of the name Mary. I will try to remember in the future to start out with "know of" rather than "know", which will somewhat get away from the problems we are having in this discussion.
But there is a difference between what memory experts call implicit memory and explicit memory. Explicit memory is the knowledge one is consciously aware of, and remembers how they learned it. Implicit memory is the knowledge one has where you don't remember how you learned it, and may not even be consciously aware of. These two types of memory are laid down in different ways in the brain. There are people who have had forms of brain damage that make it impossible for them to lay down new explicit memories, but they still learn new things implicitly. You can show this by getting them to read the same story aloud several days in a row. Such persons will have no memory of ever having read the story before
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each time they read it, but they will be faster and more accurate each time it's repeated, showing that they have implicit memory for the story even though they have no conscious recollection of it. I think that a lot of the stereotypes people have about names are built up largely by implicit memory. Every time you run into the name Mary, it builds up the general feeling you have for the name. If you know a Mary personally and see her every day, of course the huge number of interactions you have with that particular individual will be the biggest factor on your image of the name. But all the other Marys you've met are still affecting your ideas about what the "typical Mary" is like.
And so any name where the majority of people you would have met or heard of would be in your parents or grandparents generation is likely to seem "older" to you, even if you have no explicit memory of having met people with that name.
This discussion is fascinating. Hyz, you wrote, "The names I wouldn't give because they seem 'old' to me are things like Nancy, Barbara, Louise, Susan, Joan, Martha, Terry, Linda, Diane, Ronda, Patricia... surely names that were big between 1945-1960." I would guess that I'm about ten years older than you, and many of those names are names of my peers or names used a half generation up. While I wouldn't use most of them on a baby, I would never say that they gave me an "old" feeling. (I don't mean that to sound pejorative, but for the sake of the discussion at hand, I'm using that as an adjective that would eliminate a name from consideration for a potential baby born today.) If I were to use one of those names, it would be to honor a specific person.
Names that sound "old" to me are ones that were popular two generations above me. While I can't recall knowing people named Sylvia, it does have that old connotation for me.
Jill C. - I have secretly liked Japheth a long time! Partly because I like the nickname Jay for it. I guess it really is too out there though for a kid.
I totally agree with giving a lot of thought to pet names! My childhood cat was Django (pronounced jane-go)after a character in a book. My current dog who is my baby is named Kasper after Walter Cardinal Kasper. The upcoming girl dog will be Kudra after a Tom Robbins character.
marjorie--
Re young Chinese taking English names: The current issue of Time (Nov 5 issue) has an article on "China's Me Generation," essentially about Chinese 20-something yuppies. Four of the five people written about, some of whom work for international companies, have done this:
Maria
Vicky
Barney
and
Silence (male).
I just mentioned to my DH over dinner that the name Ivy was coming back into fashion and he suggested the name Creeper.
I work with elderly people (many of them 80+). I'm always interested by their names. There are several very typical names (Sarah, Betty, etc.), but I've been surprised by several of them. Here are a few, all full names:
Reba
Flora
Peggy
Dora
Shirley
Jewell
Lila
When I hear Sylvia the first thing that comes to mind is the character of Fran Drescher's overbearing mother from "The Nanny." But I do like Sylvie...sounds so French and cute.
And here's my list of names of 65+ women I know. I wouldn't call a lot of them pretty:
Bertha
Edna
Mary (3)
Carol
Caroll
Esther
Gayle
Arlene
Ann
Lynne
Linda
Helen
Doreen
Margo
Margaret
Sharon
Beulah
Muriel
Marion
Cynthia
Estelle
CKE--I think I understand what you're saying. I'm not saying Mary doesn't have an old fashioned feel just because I don't know any older Marys. I thought the focus of the discussion, though, was on whether something seemed "old and wrinkly" or "old and charming". In my personal experience, in order to fall in column A, it's much more the case that I'd have to know elderly people in the flesh to be put off it, whereas having only a vague association without knowing anyone older in particular by that name (i.e. Opal "seems" old to me, but I don't know one) renders the name more likely to be "charming" than "musty". Maybe I'm unusual in that respect, but I don't tend to think so. I think we can more easily romanticize things we're less familiar with, whereas cranky old Sister Miriam removed any charm I might've attached to that name.
The main exception I think are media names that come to represent an older image-Gertrude & Ethel come to mind--even though I don't know any, they may always seem wrinkled to me.
Valerie, I'm impressed that your husband would engage in such a conversation with you, even if it was responding in a joking way. I'm afraid if I used naming as a topic for dinner conversation with my DH he would probably look at me with a blank stare and worry that I was spending too much time on the name freak board. (He'd probably be right.) Mind you, I'm one of those childless name freaks who did not become interested in names anytime recently or because there is a child anywhere in the near future. Anyone else's significant others find their obsession a bit odd?
Elizabeth T.--most of the names on my "wouldn't use" list are firmly in my parents' generation or a little older in my mind, and I've seen them not age too well first hand. I'm sure it's a chicken or egg thing, but a lot of those names also seem harsh and/or garish to me. I'm the generation with all the Jennifers, Jessicas, Lisas, Sarahs, Alisons, etc. None of them seem old to me, but they do seem overdone, which is enough for me to avoid them.
Oh, and I just spoke to my mom, and came up with a few more names--turns out I had a great aunt and great grandmother named Rosalind (g.aunt nn Rose), great aunt Ada, great great aunt Mary (there IS one!), and best of all, an uncle Hildebrand (nn Tom).
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jt- Yes, my husband is very tolerant, even if he does find my name obsession a bit odd. He's a computer geek, so I have to listen to all kinds of odd bits of info from him, so it's only fair. Actually, I think several of us name geeks are married to computer geeks...
Laura--
Can you remove messages like the above?
Not Valerie's post! The virtual.office.vietnam ones.
Talking of pet names you'd never give a baby...
My daughter just returned from visiting out-of-state friends, one of whom recently got a dog. The mom wanted to call the dog Ziti, but their 4 yr old had her heart set on a dog named Sparkles.
They now have a dog named Zitisparkles.
I've known tons of Lisas and not one of them was fn Elizabeth. Methinks Lisa may be more common as a nn in Europe where the spelling Elisabeth is more common, and it's likely to be pronounced Leeza.
Oliver seems real common as a pet name. Katie also. Our cats are named Ripple (male, after the Grateful Dead song) and Sabrina, because we think that name is gorgeous.
I'm sure I know plenty of over-65s - my mum's generation is reaching that age - but I can't even imagine one called Sylvia. Maybe the name was never that popular here in Australia.
Like, C & C's Mom, I do know a 30-something Silvia, in this case Italian.
I don't have an image of a living Sylvia. To me, the name reeks of classical poetry, where idyllic shepherds and shepherdesses live in rustic idylls, and talk in very stilted language for hundreds of pages.
Oops, sorry about that superfluous comma after "Like".
Names of some of the over-65s I know:
Patricia (several)
Margaret (several)
Iris
Joyce
Linda
Connie (Constance)
Rita
Viv (Vivian)
Shirley
Rosa
Greta
My cat's name is Aslan, after the lion from the Narnia series. I did briefly consider this name for a girl child. I'm glad I didn't since no one in my familyi can seem to remember it correctly. Both my brother and sister call her Aslam (with an "m"), which bugs me to no end. I've corrected them before and they still can't remember. Granted, they only visit once a month or so and it is only a cat. Still, they both have read the books and seen the movie. Why is it so hard to remember?!
Regarding sparkles, my 4 year old told me this morning that she wants to be called Sparkle Rose Butterfly. I guess she likes word names like her Mommy. :)
Speaking of not remembering, my 80 year old grandmother, who is normally sharp as a tack, still can't remember the name of my 1 year old daughter, Indigo. Instead of "Indigo," she keeps saying... "Iodine." Hee hee!!
I've suggested that she use "Indie" instead, since the Baby responds to both "Indie" and "Indigo." Hopefully that will be easier for her to remember. (The baby definitely does not respond to Iodine!) :D
I just remembered another Silvia I've met, from Uruguay I think.
Which makes me wonder. She would have been in her late twenties or early thirties when I met her, now perhaps in her early fifties. Now that new parents are typically in their mid-thirties, they've been meeting people on a first-name basis for quite a few years. Many of the meetings with older Sylvias would have been before those women became grey and wrinkly. So would that association between name and age atually be formed? I know I think of the Uruguayan Silvia as quite young, because I've never seen her when she was older.
The nickname-as-given-name thing is particularly bugging me at the moment as I have two young relatives who have been named Frankie and Charlie (both girls). I wish they'd been called Francesca and Charlotte, or something.
However, I wanted to comment on something Laura said in the original blog post, which is that an Elizabeth can always choose to go by Libby if she wants but a Libby can never go by Elizabeth. And I suppose my question is, why IS that?
It seems quite arbitrary, especially since there are "acceptable" nicknames that are actually as long as or longer in letters and syllables than the names they replace (Jamie for James, Charlie for Charles)...
Plus I know e.g. a Manuel whose friends and family call him Manolito. WHY can't a Libby go by Elizabeth or a Max go by Maximillian or whatever? There's no law against it! Libby is no more "really" part of an Elizabeth's name than Elizabeth would be of a Libby's!
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