"What's up with the nicknames? Why not name your child what you are going to call them?"
- blog comment
I usually try to avoid taking sides in the great name debates. Traditional vs. creative, popular vs. unusual...there are valid arguments and stylish names on all sides. But when it comes to nicknames vs. full names on a birth certificate, I'm getting off the fence.
All else being equal, go with the full formal version.
"Why not name your child what you are going to call them?" For the same reasons that you have more than one kind of outfit in your closet. Different styles suit different occasions.
Many parents put formal names on birth certificates knowing full well that they won't call their child by that name. We all know plenty of them -- the Deborahs called Debbie, the Josephs called JoJo. Picture JoJo's parents way back when, reveling in the fun-loving nickname for their lively little boy. Now, 30 years later, JoJo's family and childhood friends may still call him that. But ask the folks who know him as an adult and they'll tell you they can't even imagine him as a JoJo. By the time he entered the working world he was introducing himself by the name on his resume, Joseph. He's hardly alone in wearing his full name like a suit and tie. Ever see Marty Scorsese or Chuck Heston listed in film credits? Martin and Charlton were deemed more suitable for the occasion.
So what happens to JoJo once Joseph takes over? With any luck the nickname lives on with a special status, as a mark of intimacy or long-standing relationships. When I was little I always loved hearing older relatives call my mother Ruth, "Ruthie." The nickname showed they'd been with her since she was a kid like me; it was a name that was always spoken with love. Some people even go through multiple nicknames at different life stages. Our Joseph may be a JoJo with his family, Joe with the college buddies, and Joseph as an adult professional. None of the names is right or wrong. Each one is a precious part of a life story and identity.
Is there a downside to choosing a formal version? Suppose, say, an Elizabeth wants stay Libby exclusively. That's seldom a problem. People are happy to call you whatever you call yourself. But suppose that Libby doesn't want what her parents want. Aha. This, I think, is the crux of the matter. "I want Libby on the birth certificate, otherwise she might decide she doesn't like it and wants to call herself Elizabeth instead!" May I gently suggest that is an argument in favor of full names, not against them? It's her name, not yours. If she ultimately decides that your preferred nickname doesn't fit -- or simply doesn't fit the occasion -- she'll be glad you left that choice in her hands.
Now, the caveats. Plenty of nicknames have become so well established as given names that they've earned their independence. Molly, Drew, Eliza and Jack are just a few of the many examples. Further, I wouldn't dream of telling parents to choose a name they actively dislike. If you love Libby but loathe Elizabeth, do what you've got to do. But if you're on the fence, I say err on the side of flexibility. An Elizabeth can always be Libby "for short," but a Libby can't be Elizabeth "for long."
Comments
I've been racking my brains but cannot think of a single Sylvia and it's not for lack of knowing oldies either as I live in a rural community and have a large extended family. I haven't checked the stats but I'm wondering if Sylvia was more popular in the US than the UK when it had it's hay day? (I recall someone mentioning here a while back that it was popular with the Jewish community?)...
That aside, I think Cleveland Kent Evans is correct in his suggestion that everyone you meet informs your opinions of a name - consciously or otherwise. Certainly, I have a definite impression of what I expect a Sylvia to be like without being able to recollect ever having met one.
Ordinarily a fan of a-endings I surprise myself in my preference of Sylvie over Sylvia. Somehow it sounds much younger and spunkier - or is that just me??
"WHY can't a Libby go by Elizabeth or a Max go by Maximillian or whatever? There's no law against it!"
Yeah, there is, sometimes--you have to use your formal, birth certificate name on official stuff, like your passport, your dissertation, marriage licenses, payroll and work IDs, etc. etc. So the irony is, in the very official situations where you want a formal name, you're stuck without one. It's like only having jeans to wear to your inauguration.
A formal name doesn't have to be a LONGER name--as you point out, there are plenty of nicknames that are longer than the formal version. It's an affectionate version, perfect to call a cute kid, but just wrong coming from your boss.
Tirzah--
There used to be a comic strip character called Little Iodine.
http://www.toonopedia.com/iodine.htm
Haven't thought of her in ages!
Oh, and Tirzah, I just remembered...we used to have a parakeet named Reepicheep, after the Narnia mouse.
Liz & Louka,
Your comment about new parents typically being in their mid-thirties struck me. While that is certainly true among my peer group, I don't think it's true for the population at large. In 2002, the last year for which I could find statistics, on average American women had their first child at 25.2 years (up from 21 in the early 1970s). I couldn't find a statistic for men, but I did see some data that suggest that the average age of fathers in the UK is now in the low 30s. That might make sense since people typically have more than one child, meaning the first child could have been born to a man in his late 20s. I don't know if the experience here in the US holds true in other nations (surely not), but it does mean that most American babies are named by parents younger than their mid-thirties. I'd be fascinated to hear what you all think about the differences between names that older and younger parents give to their children. Any guesses?
Maybe some our academics here can cite hard evidence for this, but my instinct would be this: since there seem to be naming differences that correlate with level of education, and since higher levels of education probably correlate with having children when older, then, yes, there probably are differences.
To Liz & Louka:
"Gray and wrinkled" was a relative term. It doesn't necessarily mean that your hair is all gray and that your skin looks like balled-up notebook paper. It just means that the image of the name is definitely "older" for the young parental generation. So if all the Sylvias you knew when you were between 10 and 15 years old were at least 15 years older than yourself, you will think of it as an "older" name even if technically the Sylvias you knew didn't have a lot of wrinkles yet at that stage of their life. They still are almost surely going to have wrinkles way before YOU will, and that's the main point.
And of course the age images of specific names are going to vary from culture to culture depending on how the name has been used in those cultures. Silvia may not seem "old" at all in Latin America. There are differences in this between the UK and the USA. Carl and Joanne are much "older" in the USA than they are in the UK. Eric, Heather, and Emma are "older" in the UK than in the USA.
Off-topic comment.. I just saw the new movie "Rendition" with Reese Witherspoon playing a contemporary, American Of Anglo background. Age was about 33. Her name was Isabella and I found that unlikely..It reminded me of the blog a while ago about naming Sci-Fi characters appropriately in the far future.Isabella's 6 yr old son is named Jeremy,and that seemed a little,tiny bit off as well.. Being a name freak can even affect the movie-going experience!
I can think of two Sylvias in their mid-sixties, and it does strike me as an "old," name, while Sylvie sounds fresh and darling to my ear.
Cleveland Kent Evans's comments about memory were interesting, too.
I actually once had a young Sylvia as a student (she was born in either Chilie or Argentina), but although I came to know her well, hers isn't the image I associate with the name.
At my son's preschool, the name variations between the children of younger and older parents are about what one might expect. Younger parents have Kaylees and Siennas and older parents have Sophies and Annas.
There is, however, overlap.
For example, we have Jacks (two besides mine) and Jacksons whose parents fall all over the map.
I think I mentioned this before, during one of my Emma/Emily obsessions, but I do believe there is a point at which an "old," name becomes popular to the point where it is as likely to be used by parents who also like trendier names, as it is by parents seeking classics.
Continued....
For example, where we live, an Emma is just as likely to have a sister named Madison as one named Alice.
Isabelles are siblings to Mackenzies and Rileys....
This is just my anecdotal experience, of course.
Additionally, a lot of younger moms have no problem combining the new trendy with the old trendy.
I've mentioned my friend with a
Kennedi Lucille before, as one example.
I think those of us with more age and education often overthink the issue; whereas parents who are a little younger just pick what they love without so much obsessing about "rules."
Weird, huh?!
Take care, all.
penny you said
"WHY can't a Libby go by Elizabeth or a Max go by Maximillian or whatever? There's no law against it!"
Yeah, there is, sometimes--you have to use your formal, birth certificate name on official stuff, like your passport, your dissertation, marriage licenses, payroll and work IDs, etc. etc.
but i think thats less true in britain than america - in britain you can be pretty much known as anything u want and it can even become ur legal name after a while as long as there is a presedent of you using the name.
Re: full name for Fred
My 12 year old daughter suggested Freeman or Fremont that could conceivably go to Fred.
Thanks for the feedback on "Dare". Sometimes odd one-syllable names seem to grab me, (again, going against current trends.)
For instance, as soon as I became aware of "Tyne Daly", I loved that name. It happened to be attached to an actress who played a frumpy (but with a heart of gold) NYC policewoman on "Cagney and Lacey" in the Eighties. I wonder if that was NOT the case if it would have caught on? My geography is deserting me but is not Tyne the name of a river in the north of England? Love the sound of it and the unexpected "y", again, unfashionably.
Arlene: Going back a bit, perhaps "Temperance" and "Harriet" aren't quite as incongruous as they first seem. Couldn't they be sisters in nineteenth century New England, maybe?
Do you have any other favorite names from detective fiction-- it seems to offer interesting possibilities...
Re: Sylvia sounding "too old", a few years ago I worked at a part time job with another young woman my age named Sylvia. And just about every single time I heard her name I would think to myself, "What an awful name! I can't believe her parents did that to her." Of course I never said that out loud, and I doubt my reaction had any bearing on my interactions with her, but I was definitely thinking it.
Sylvia, the name has been around for a long time - what about "Who is Sylvia?" - the poem by William Shakespeare (1564-1616) and set to music by Franz Schubert (1797-1828)!
You can get the tune as well as words at http://ingeb.org/songs/whoissyl.html
Or just google "Who is Sylvia?" and get lots of hits.
I know and have met many women over 65, but none of them have been Sylvias. I did go to school with a Silvia, but don't know any other Sylvias.
Names of some women I know over 65:
Enid
Marjorie
Shirley
Irene
Lynnette
Helen
Lily
Bobbie (may be a nickname, but I don't know what for)
Barbara
Miriam
eo--
Re fictional detective names--the one that I thought of immediately is Anna Pigeon, the park ranger detective created by Nevada Barr, and it's her ln that catches the attention, not her fn. However, the author, Nevada Barr--and that's not a pseudonym--like her protagonist, has a sister named Molly.
Anna and Molly (fictitious)-- perfect match.
Nevada and Molly (real)-- not so perfect.
Truth is stranger than fiction!
Elizabeth T: in 2006 the average age of first time mothers in Australia was 29. It's about 33 for first time fathers.
Here's the "Average Age of Mothers at First Birth, by State" map for the US (2002):
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5419a5.htm
Looks like a large percentage of women in the northeast are having their first baby in their thirties. (Not quite the majority in 2002, but that may have change in the past five years.)
Tyne is one of the ones that the BNW recommends and I really don't get. Eo, you're right, it's a river in the North East of England, and while the parts that run through the wild areas just south of Hadrian's Wall are quite beautiful, the Tyne is famous for running through Newcastle-upon-Tyne, an industrial city famous for its bridges-- and an industrial legacy of dirt and poverty. While Newcastle is more or less the posterchild to the success of the UK's cities strategy in the last ten years, for people who haven't a clue who Tyne Daly is, the connotation is of shipbuilding, coal, factories and an impossible accent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_upon_Tyne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geordie
Elly--I believe *tyne* is an old Celtic word for river, not just the specific one in Newcastle. Tyne is sometimes an Irish surname. Tyne Daly was born Ellen Tyne Daly--and used her middle name as first name. Again, we get back to the beauty of a versatile name.
Ooh, did any of you meet any interesting trick or treaters? There was a Milo and an Enzo in my batch tonight--different families, both yuppiesh in appearance, and cute kids. Those were the only new names I caught, and I only got them because they were toddlers and their parents were calling them as they wandered aimlessly between my door and the sidewalk. :)
The latest stats in Australia seem to be a median age of 31 for first time mothers and 33 for first time fathers. The highest birthrate is now in the 30-34 age range with new mothers aged 35-39 at it's highest rate ever as well!
Also, I'm another name geek with a total computer geek for a husband. Must be something about that....
Thanks Elly and Tess. I did vaguely associate the Tyne with Newcastle and wondered if the image would suffer in Britain. Glad the city is having a renaissance now... Interesting info re Celtic connection. Of course, both Tyne and Timothy Daly's father was the character actor James Daly, who I imagine was interested in the Irish association.
Arlene-- I had forgotten Nevada Barr and her forester-protagonist "Anna Pigeon"! Good ones. Then there's "Melrose Plant" from Martha Grimes, and the detective-couple, "Tommy and Tuppence Beresford" from Agatha Christie. I think in the early James Lee Burke novels Dave Robichaux's (sp?) sprite-like little daughter was "Alafair" which has an appealing medieval sound to me.
I think Sue Grafton in the "Kinsey Millhone" series gives the most consistently "apt" names over time to her often quirky characters. She obviously gives a lot of thought to them.
Oh, and I like that Ngaio Marsh's artist character "Agatha Troy" was known as "Troy" only. Seems jaunty on a woman.
Hyz: The little witches I ran into last night were two sister groups: Kiera and Macy, Maddie and Tilly. I only caught their names because the meeting occurred in a shop where their hapless and fraught mothers were trying to shepherd the little flock (all high on e-numbers!) out of the door with limited success!
Anne Perry has lots of great Victorian names in her books. Some names that I can remember (but each of her many books is replete with wonderful names) are Juniper, Aloysius, Jessamyn, Callandra, and Kingsley.
Is Jessamyn a bona fide Victorian era spelling? Fits perfectly with the modern Madlyns and Jazmyns.
Arlene, thanks for the link to Little Iodine. That's probably where she got that name from! I had no idea that Iodine was ever used as a name.
Re: Sylvia - I'm amused that my dd's name caused such a long discussion. We haven't gotten any neg. feedback on it, but then we didn't tell anyone we were picking it until the ink had dried on the birth cert.! Her pals have names Ruth, Flora, Charlotte & Hannah. This seems like a reaction to the Madison/ Emma/anything with a K trend. Or maybe my local peers are not afraid of older-sounding names?
PS Today's my due date. Little stinker is being stubborn!
To me Sylvia immediately evokes Sylvia Plath. Which I guess is both a good and a bad thing: Good because she's a great poet, bad because she's known mainly for having committed suicide. I guess Plath would be in her 70s now if she'd lived, but to me it doesn't seem like an old lady name because I associate it with the image from her photos, a beautiful young writer who'll always be 30 years old. It's not a name I would choose because of that sad association, but I think it's a beautiful one.
Good luck with your 2nd, Kagey! Come back and tell us what you chose.
Meg - congratulations on your wee girl. Not a fan of Helen(two less than appealing ones in my life) but that's not the name, just the personalities. I feel the same way about Matthew yet adore the name in L.M. Montgomery's books.
Lisa - bee - actually there are few situations where you 'have' to use your full name. I enter the shortened version of my name on absolutely everything now, legal or not, and have never so far got pulled up on it. Best thing is to try it and see how far it takes you.
Elizabeth T - I love Anne Perry's use of Jemima as a first name. It sounds quite in keeping with the late Victorian times.
Re Sylvia - I love it but think for a child I'd use Sylvie - just a little more contemporary without being kr8tiv.
What do folks think of the Irish name Mairead, nickname Maisie? When my son and dil were naming their baby they called from the hospital to ask me whether Maisie was a *real* name. I said it was a nn for Margaret or Mairead, as far as I knew. Certainly, one could make it a nn for other names, as well, maybe Martha or Mary. Anyway, they knew a Margaret they didn't like...and they chose another name. But -back to my question-what do you all think of Mairead, nn Maisie. I love it with an Irish surname.
I like the name Mairead with that nn its a good name with a cute nn What do you think of Ellianna, nn lanna or Elli? What about the middle name Mercy?
Tess: How exactly do you pronounce Mairead?
Tansey - I'm intrigued! Do you mind me asking (assuming Tansey is the shortened version of your name and not just a handle) what it's short for? Isn't Tansy - spelt that way I think - a herb?
This is off-topic, but I think there are some regular posters from Australia, and I'm wondering if you know how to pronounce Sybella? Is it just like it looks?
For those of you behind on your People magazine reading, it's the name of Nicole Kidman's newest niece.
We live in a cul-de-sac, so the trick or treaters came too fast and furious to get names, except when I said that one little Darth Vader looked so scary, he lifted up his mask and declared, "It's me! Nolan!"
I'm not Australian and don't know but would imagine that Sybella is pronounced exactly how you would expect. Is it a variant of Sybilla does anyone know? It seems very close to the name of Nicole Kidman's own daughter Isabella...
Katharine- I have heard Mairead pronounced ma-RAID..It is the Irish form of Margaret. And, I agree, Sybella is terribly close to Isabella. I would have thought off-limits.;) Chelsea-Elliana is lovely. Another name close to it is Ellena...nickname could be Liana for the first optionor Lena for the second.Mercy flows well and has a lovely meaning, I think.
I'm Australian, although I don't think that's really going to help with pronouncing Sybella..it's definitely not common.
If I were to say it though I'd say 'si' like the first syllable in sister, 'bell' just like the word bell and the 'a' like an 'uh'.
Ps. I just googled Antonia Kidman and it would appear that little Sybella has three older siblings: Lucia, Hamish and James.
Hamish doesn't surprise me as I've noticed that Scottish names like Lachlan and Angus are big down under. Indeed, they seem disproportionately popular compared with their usage elsewhere.
I'm sure there are Scots living in Australia and so the likely answer that such name choices in honour of their heritage is possible. However, the prevalence of a name like Lachlan which I seldom hear in Britain has often struck me as a little random. Can anyone shed any light? Thanks...
Plaxico is a wonderful name... I mean, if you name your child plaxico, you can call him/her plax for short!!! Also, wouldn't arrid be a nice name?
I wish this topic would have come up before I named my daughter! My MIL adds an "ie" to ALL names which makes my skin crawl!! It took us until after she was born to choose b/c of MIL, but I sttod my ground and finally ended up choosing Liv Apple. We told everyone there would absolutely be no "livvie", but here we are 10 months later and MIL is calling her "Livvie Lu", even after we asked her not to. I want to punch her in the face when she says it- Starting to regret my decision b/c it bothers me so! How can I make the nn stop?!
Katharine: I don't know the reason for the popularity of Scottish names, but I don't think it's because parents are honouring their Scottish heritage. I don't have statistics, but I wouldn't say that the Scottish are a disproportionately large immigrant group in Australia. Of the Lachlan's I've known none of them have had Scottish connections. Same goes for the one Angus I know.
It would be interesting if anyone could explain why we seem to love those names so much.
Chelsea, my daughter has a girl named Ellianna in her pre-school, only she spells it Eliana. I prefer the simpler spelling. Eliana Mercy is lovely!
Erin, I think you're stuck with the nickname. She's going to get called Livvie in preschool anyway. You can stick to your guns, but what other people do is beyond your control. She will ultimately be the one who decides how to handle people who call her by a name she doesn't like. You picked a lovely name; pick a better reason to let your mother-in-law get under your skin--ha ha!
My daughter has been home sick all week from kindergarten. Her teacher sent home cards from all the kids today with a neighbor. While I'm of course distressed that she's still sick, I was thrilled (as only you all will understand) to FINALLY learn all the children's names!!!
Here they are:
Noah
Olivia
Nicholas
Ethan
Ayannah
Aylina (this is pronounced Elena)
Emyly
Niyasia (pronounced Nye-asia)
Leah
Cody
Lisbeth
Omar
Maggie (nickname for Margaret)
Max
C.J. (nickname for Clarence)
Daniel Brandon (goes by both names)
Joseph
Jeremiah
Sabrina
This class is very economically and racially diverse. We live in North Carolina.
What's interesting to me about the Kidman kids is that Hamish is the traditional Scottish version of James, so they have James twice!
Erin-
I think Liv is absolutely beautiful, but I can see how a grandma would have a hard time resisting the impulse to use Livvie.
I think you should just bite your lip and remember that only you and your husband adore her more than her grandparents. If it bugs Her when she's older, than she can speak up.
I know that advice is probably the opposite of what a lot of name-lovers on this site would say, but I think you have to pick your battles with in-laws.
And, I have to confess, I love Livvie Lu.
Sarah-I think Lachlan is a big up and comer here in the states. The one I know is the baby brother of a Maddox, but it's been on the short list of others I know.
Elizabeth-Thanks for the fun list, and how thoughtful of your daughter's teacher! I hope your little girl is better soon.
I know Nicole and her sister are extremely close. Maybe the connection to Isabelle was intentional. I thought there was a chance it was pronounced more like Sybil at the front.
Take care all!
A good bit of Lachlan's popularity in Australia is probably because of Lachlan Masquairie, an early governor of New South Wales who championed the rights of freed convicts. As I understand it, he is considered one of the most important and positive persons in Australian history. So the love of Lachlan in Australia isn't random at all; it goes back to someone who has a position in Australian life something like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson had in the early USA.
http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A020162b.htm
Sorry for the typos on the surname. That should have been Lachlan _Macquarie_.
Penny, a friend of mine with your name lengthened her name to Pennington. I'm pretty sure the post I wrote about that got eaten (which happens with this blog occasionally), but sorry if it's a repeat!
Enbee, yes, fish are endlessly amusing to name. We had Mrs. G and Tootie and Blair from the Facts of Life, but our 2-year-old renamed Blair Gloria and Mrs. G and Tootie died, so we got Archie, Edith, and Meathead. Edith recently bit the dust (if a fish can be said to do that). Eventually we will probablyhave to switch again; maybe if Archie survives we can get a Veronica?
Erin, for the record, I have always cold-shouldered anyone who calls me "Bethie," as my name was specifically chosen so it would not be "-ied" (this was in the era of the endless Stacey Tracee Kelly Kerri names). So if your daughter turns out not to want to be a Livvie, tell her to stick up for her name.
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