The Baby Name Wizard

Thank you! I'm so excited about seeing all these names.

A colleague's father was named Welcome. He died two or three years ago and was probably born about 1910.

This going to be great, I can feel it in my bones. Welcome jumped off that list at me... have to think about it.
Thank you, thank you!

Lovie is a boys name, right? There's an NFL coach named Lovie Smith.

That's so sad...I wonder how many names were lost to the ages prior to Social Security?

I know two people named Bliss - a woman around 50 and a teenager.

Bliss reminds me of Miss Bliss (played by Hayley Mills) on early Saved by the Bell episodes. I like the sound but I think it's too feminine for boys and too... sexual for girls. It would be a good stripper or drag name. Haha...

I like Sable, probably because I also like Hazel, Mabel, etc... it means dark though right? I wonder if it was used by AFrican Americans, or Europeans with darker features? Or... if its meaning was ignored... it also seems unusual as dark is usually considered negative in western culture (ex. Snow White, black heart, white lie). I'm very curious about what is behind the use of this name.

Re: Icey, Spicy, Nicy, Vicy, Dicy: reminds me of the books Dicey's Song and Icy Sparks (neither of which I have read). Also reminds me of Niecy Nash (who hosts Clean House and is on Reno 911). Hers is a nn for Denise, leading me to think it's pronounced differently than the names in this list, but maybe I'm wrong to think these were all pronounced with the long I.

Dicey's Song is a fantastic book, though it's meant for older teens & was given to me in the 9th grade I occasionally reread it and the prequel Homecoming. Icy Sparks is just ok - awfully disease-of-the-month/Oprah-bookclubby.

The older Bliss is a conservative Christian and I believe her name is referring to religious Bliss. I barely know the younger girl.

The real reason I am posting again so soon is because I just came home from a parade and heard a brand new (using the term very lightly) name - Ashlette. New names are so exciting to me!!

Yeah, I think the religious Bliss that a lot of folks in the late 19th are named for is Philip Paul Bliss (1838-1876), a famous-at-the-time hymn writer who died young in a tragic trainwreck. Some of his songs were popular choices at Civil War commemorations, and thus especially beloved to the generation that remembered that first-hand.

http://www.pdmusic.org/bliss.html

Speaking of historical names, don't be too quick to dismiss the possibility of a girl named Melvin.... While many are statistical blips or misspellings of Melva, Melba, Malvina, some might have really been Melvins. There was a prominent American journalist who was Marvin Breckinridge Patterson (1905-2002):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Marvin_Breckinridge

Her parents named her Mary Marvin Breckinridge, but she was always called Marvin and that was her byline.

How do people find out about names that were around before the SSA data? For instance, _The Oxford Dictionary of First Names_ cites some centuries-old document in which a woman is referred to both as Amabilia and Mabilia, and a few threads ago someone talked about medieval variants of names--Annesta for Anastasia, Ellyn for Helen, etc.. I've been wondering where this sort of information comes from, and I would appreciate it if anyone would share anything they knew.

Thanks for an excellent post, Laura! Ooh, this is so exciting...can't wait for the follow-up post! (I'm still on tenterhooks for the continuation of "Where All the Boys End Up Nowadays" :).)

US manuscript census returns give first names for all enumerated persons starting in 1850. Or you can go to church baptismal records back into the 1600s, or abstracts of wills, or pretty much any sources that genealogists use.

The book Seventh Son by Orson Scott Card tells the story of a seventh son of a seventh son called Alvin (after his father). Alvin's brothers are called Vigor, David, Measure, Calm, twins Wastenot and Wantnot and little brother Calvin. Sound like they belong with the names "Welcome" and "Constant". The girl names were more familiar, like Eleanor. Maybe a future post could be about naming history, i.e. fictive names from historical or mythical past?

I love your blog! I find names fascinating, and I also love data, so...the perfect blend for me!

A friend of mine from high school named her son Worthy. Must be a family name.

In the little league near my house, there is a young player named Welcome Wilson, named after his grandfather, a prominent local citizen.

My maternal grandmother's name was Mary Doll. Her parents were going to name her Mary Ella, but then a visitor commented that she looked just like a little doll, so they decided on Mary Doll. I wonder if she is on the list you saw? (But you were probably just looking at first names.)

Where I live, unusual family names are quite commonly given to children these days, especially to boys, for some reason.

I could make a long list of unusual last-name-as-first-names or quirky family names, but that's probably for another post.

Well, I just can't resist, so here are some of the unusual names in my neighborhood (I also teach at the school, so I see/hear the names a lot):

Girls:
Mary Bass
Reagan
Berkeley
Teel
Smith
Mills Stuart
Braden
Griffith
Mary Mac (Mac a nn for Macsomething)
Story
Lady (nn for Adelaide)

Boys:
Hill
Wells
Lake
Cutter
Sage
Skylar
Scout
Buster (!)
Roscoe

In England at least, quite good parish records were often kept, going back into medieval times. And then there's the Domesday Book, which is stuffed full of demographic records. I can't look up its date because I haven't been able to get access to Google. (Is anyone else having trouble with Google?)

Re: girls named Melvin. If it's an error, it could easily be an error in recording the gender, rather than a misspelling.

Kelly--I wonder if Buster is my friend's grandson. That's his given name, not a nn. I don't know where they live, but I could find out.

Meg--The Domesday Book date is 1086. No problems w/ Google. Look carefully at your Google page. A friend had some problems w/ Google a while ago and didn't realize that the page had been hijacked by something called Goggle. It looked just like the multi-colored Google logo. You see what you expect to see!

I'm surprised to see Sable being a one-hit-wonder. My husband has a bunch of ancient relatives named Pinkney. I hope Pinkney's a one-hit-wonder. This is going to be fun!

My grandfather John's name was Buster on his birth certificate, but they later changed it.
This list seems really neat, I'm pretty surprised such a high percentage were authentic one hit wonders and not spelling variants.
Dolly Madison was such a prevalent figure, I'd bet Doll was a boy's name. Seems like it would've been used for girls more. Guess I'll go check.
Thanks Laura, for the grunt work!

Doll was a boy's name, but never a girl's name.
Pet was a one hit wonder for girls in 1880's. I checked it because there is a man somewhere on our family tree named Pet. Poor guy.

Sadhbh-- To get the medieval variant names you mentioned, and tons of others, do this:

Google: Medieval Names Archive

then, press: Medieval Naming Guides: English

then, press: Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of
English Surnames by Talan Gwynek

go to the bottom of that page, and choose one of the time periods, e.g. "before 1250" or whatever, and it will pull up lots of medieval names, arranged alphabetically.

It's one of the great unsung sources of names, many of which would be viable today! Happy hunting...

Sable can mean dark but there is also an animal called the sable. Ermine are an animal too.They are similar to weasels and minks and and have beautiful fur that is used for coats etc. Maybe little Sable's and Ermine's parents were naming their kids after a luxury item like todays kids named Lexus or Evian.

Eo, I remember the medieval names from a mention in another post. There are definitely some interesting names there.

I'm most interested in what the highest-ranked one-hit wonder was. Bring them on!

I looked at the medieval names archive at the pre-1600 brass inscriptions section where I found this

"The ten most common names were shared by 82.5% of the male population." The ten most common John, Thomas, William, Richard, Robert, Henry, Nicholas, Edward, Walter, and Roger. Just think, more than 8 out of 10 men had one of those names. I'm betting that had a lot of nicknames.

I did a quick calculation from the Social Security website. In 1880 in the U.S., 41% of men shared the top ten names. In 2006, it's down to about 10%.

Amber: Do you think Pinkney is a surname? I'm asking because there is a town called Pinckney where I live and... I don't know, it seems like places and surnames often share names.

Mary: Good point about Ermine and Sable. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Actually Sable and Ermine remind me of the heraldic terms (another tinge of medievalness). Related to the Talan Gwynek stuff, there are also some fascinating articles about how certain names that we think of as historical are actually anachronistic:
http://medievalscotland.org/problem/

I have a teacher colleague whose name is Icy (and her DH's name is Rocky)! I saw on a class list that her full name is actually Isaline. Yikes! Anyone come across that name before? How do you think it is pronounced? IS-a-leen? IS-a-lyne? EYE-say-leen? (That last one sounds like contact lens fluid).

Pinkney is a surname. I have friends with that last name, and there were several prominent early Americans with the surname Pinkney or Pinckney (Charles Pinckney signed the US Constitution).

For all you who occasionally sing the praises of "older" names... Our friends had a baby this morning - Mabel Eileen. :) I used to think of Mabel as a bit daudy but after being in here for a while and now hearing it irl, it feels fresh, clean...

Irene's mom -- There's a character (boy) in Louisa May Alcott's book Little Men who's named Dolly -- it's a nickname for Adolphus, if I recall correctly.

Love this topic!

And now for my totally off topic question-what does everyone think of alliteration in names? I usually try to avoid them-they sound too comic book/cartoonish to me. But I recently find myself drawn to a boy's name that starts with the same letter as our last!

I discovered a one-hit wonder recently, when my friend Kenan asked if his name had ever hit the top 1000. It did, once, in 1997. I'm guessing it was due to the movie Good Burger, which came out that year and introduced Kenan Thompson (currently on Saturday Night Live) to the world.

I agree, Alissa, alliterative names do run the risk of sounding cartoonish. But they can also have a bit of stylish snap to them--I like the crisp "Tess Trueheart," maybe because the ONLY repeating sound is the T....T....t? Katie Couric pulls off the same pattern (K.....K...k). There's nothing comic-book about Margaret Mead, either.

So, I'd say it's something to think about, but not a deal breaker. It can work, with some care.

Eo and Meg--Thanks a lot! Can't wait to check those out!

Alissa--I think alliteration's okay, even pleasant, if the meter of the names doesn't make it sing-songy. Margaret Mead is okay, but Maria Mead, not so much.

Alissa, that was a decision we struggled with when we named our first -- our last name begins with M, but Margaret (nn Meg) was the name we liked the best. We decided to go for it, but we swore that any future children we would have wouldn't alliterate -- partially to avoid the "too-cute" problem, and partially because I'd babysat for alliterative families (for example, a family with a D last name who had four kids: Dalton, Dylan, Dawn, and Dustin) and it was hard to call the right name for the right kid!

Another naming no-no, in my opinion, are rhyming single syllable nn's for kids. My parents did that, though they claim they didn't realize it when they were naming me. I was J-Kim and my brother was K-Jim when my parents yelled at us.

Valerie: Yow, "Isaline" has got to be exceedingly rare. IZ-a-lyne or leen does seem the most palatable pronunciation. Your comment re contact lense solution-- hilarious!

One of the medieval names I like is "Ismay" (IZ-may) which is apparently a corruption or variant of Esme...

I wonder how unique the name "Aissa" is? I just encountered it reading Aissa Wayne's memoir of her father. (She's John Wayne's daughter). To me it has a current stylish sound, but they gave it to her in the late Fifties, obviously. Do you think it would be pronounced "Eye-EES-a"? Her younger sibs were John Ethan and Marisa...

The closest to Aissa I've seen is "Assia", the name of Assia Wevill, poet Ted Hughes doomed second wife. It's kind of an interesting one too, but perhaps too sullied by the role Assia Wevill played in breaking up Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath, and in later killing herself and her tiny daughter. What name could survive that kind of horror?

What is it about the name Mary that produces these two word names with weird middle names? I knew a Mary Lass. It was pretty, on her, but not everyone could have pulled it off.

Once I encountered a checkout person at the grocery store named Dymphna. I chuckled all the way back to the car.

And oh, kristin dawn, I am so glad you like new names because I tend to hate them, so it is good to see them from another side. Ashlette made me want to lie down with the smelling salts.

And from Kelly's list, Cutter, for a boy? Are his parents insane? Where I come from, a cutter is someone who, um ... well, remember Flatula Flumeflame or whatever that excellent handle was in previous comment threads? That kind of cutter.

Dymphna's a legendary Irish saint's name--in Gaelic, she's named Damhnait or Davets--she was supposedly buried near Gheel, Belgium, where there's a church in her honor. She's considered a patron saint for people with mental illness, incest survivors, epileptics, and runaways:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Dymphna

Oh yes, Dymphna, good Irish name, I believe! I met an Assumpta once, also Irish. Not too keen on the 'mph' or 'mpt' sounds in there. Ditto Humphrey.

Glad you enjoyed Isaline, Eo. Guess I'm waiting for ClevelandKentEvans to give me the lowdown on that one!

Kimberley--I agree about not linking rhyming names for kids (one syllable or more), but based on experience, I would say that parents in the throes of bawling out a child tend to mix up the names. I could never understand how my mother could yell "ArleneJoyceBernard" and then, sometimes for good measure add Helen (her sister...somehow her brother never got in there, now that I think about it), until the day I was yelling at one of my daughters and found myself calling her Joyce! I couldn't help it--I stopped in mid-tirade and started laughing. Having the names rhyme or alliterate (is that a verb?) probably makes it worse, but I'll bet most parents have had a similar experience...or if they haven't yet, they will!

Hehe, Arlene--I remember my grandmother starting with her own daughter and working through the granddaughters until she got to the right one....

Euclid, Pliny, Wealthy, Welcome, Constant, and probably Worthy wouldn't be "one-hit wonders" if we had data from before 1880 as part of the SSA list. All of them aren't that hard to find in records from the first half of the 19th century. The first two are "Classical Revival" names from the early 19th century period when towns were being named things like Corinth, Rome, and Athens. The others are survivals of Puritan names.

re: Ismay: This is how my friend from New Zealand pronounces his daughter's name (Esme). Very funny when he was trying to tell us her name.

re: Aissa: I would pronounce it EYE-sa I think. I wonder if it started as a misspelling of Alissa. I knew a guy, for example, whose name was Jasson and he claimed it was because his parents misspelled it on the birth certificate.

re: Assia: How would you pronounce this? I think it's ruined by having "ass" in it rather than the Plath connection, which I think is probably not very well known.

Did anyone else hear Laura on NPR this week talking names with Tom Ashbrook on "On Point"? I must say I felt like a bit of a Trendy Wendy when I knew ahead of time what the 'naming community' response would be to a particular name or trend! :)

I know a girl called Blyss, she's very serious and a good example of how a light name (even creatively spelled) doesn't have to box you in. I just met a two month old baby named June, so I am tipping this as the start of the mid century revival. Expect Baby Deborah, Valerie, Brenda and Kathleen to come your way soon!

Euclid, the mathematical one hit wonder, (Eulid was "The Father of Geometry") isn't a million miles removed from Linnaea, the feminine name derived from Carl Linnaeus, the taxonomist/botanist. Linnaea's pretty cool these days, although Euclid has a nasty "eww" sound at the beginning.

Laura re: your line ball calls, are you sure Constant isn't a porrly spelled Constance? Nicy, Dicey etc I would wager are the old-timey equivalent of parents naming their...

... kids Abby or Katie on the basis that "that's what we'll always call her", so no formal name is required. Nicy can be a nn for Denise, or Janice, Shanice.

I grew up with an alliterative name. Both first and last were long and I never minded it in the least.
Oh, and we've picked our name. Lois Barbara. Anything horrible we didn't think of?

Oh! I stand corrected on Dymphna.

This really belongs way back in the thread where someone asked for favorite full names from fiction/history, but: my new most deliciously quaint favorite name is Lodensy Butterfield. The mother of a famous spiritualist medium (bonus points if you can guess who) in the 19th century. Lodensy! Butterfield!

I think a child named Lois will get made fun of a lot. It's not really in the same league as Irene. Irene is old fashioned but its kinda cool and spunky and creative. You can imagine a beautiful woman named Irene. Lois is not only an old lady's name but it's also really dowdy and unattractive. I was born in the 80s and I think my name is totally cheesy but at least I fit in at school and still fit in with my peers. I always felt sorry for the Bernadette and the Louise in my elementary school because their names just sorta didn't fit at all, and they did get teased a lot. And there seems to be this weird psychological phenomenon that like when you hear a little girl who has a really out of style old ladies name you automatically think of somebody who is ugly or something. I like to call it the "Bertha" effect.

I think the last post was a bit harsh. Irene's mom, while I don't know that I would choose Lois for my child, I think that it's a pretty name. And Lois Lane is certainly a spunky, inspiring role model to give your daughter. (If you get over the fact that Superman often had to rescue her, she was tough, smart and hard-working, not a bad combination of traits.) And for the sake of continuity, it goes well with Irene, since they both have an early-to-mid-20th century vibe.

Also, considering that just a few posts ahead of you someone commented that they think mid-century names are on they way back in - if they're right, then little Lois Barbara will fit right in with all her peers.

Aside from that, the name doesn't present any obvious teasing nickname problems, as long as you don't call her Barbie.

That post about Lois is wrong.

Lois is just fine. I would rather be called Lois than some sort of cheesy fitting in name like Tiffany or Madison.

And every little Lois I know is called "Loey" (Rhymes with Chlöe or Zoey). Perfectly cute and common sounding.

And teasing doesn't have much to do with the kid's name. We talked about it before--if you're cute, rich, beautiful, or have a great personality you can pull off ANY name. Two of the head cheerleader types at my high school was named Berta and Martha. Both their names were kind of really ugh in the 90's, and if they were socially awkward they would have gotten teased. But they didn't.

And a Lois Barbara will fit in with *her* peers fine!

If Lois is a fitting-in kinda kid, she can go by Loey, or even Lola--can't get a lot more trendy than that. Oooh, or Elba (L-Ba). But the great thing is, she'll still have a good solid historical (Biblical even) name for her PhD and for her office door.... so I say good choice!

Philippa--Thanks for the heads-up on Laura's NPR appearance. For those like me, who missed it, here's the link:

http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2007/09/20070914_b_main.asp

I also like Lois a lot - it seems feminine but also business like - a perfect name for a girl who will be able to anything! My favorite is Louise, though - I'd always just loved the sounds of it. But back to Lois - I think Lois Barbara flows well and is a good name.

I think Lois is great. And I love the suggested nicknames. You could also call her "Lotus," which is a little much as a given name, but cute as a nn. Of course, Irene and Lola starts to sound pretty mismatched. May I ask what Irene's middle name is? I am NOT a fan of Barbara. To me, Lois can either be very frumpy or chic and elegant... I think this mostly depends on the person wearing it, but Barbara, for me, also pushes it MUCH more in the frumpy direction. But then, so what if a name is a little frumpy? If you love it, hopefully your daughter will love it, and if she wants to nickname herself when she's young, she will. I don't see any obvious nickname potential, as long as there isn't any with your last name in combination. Congratulations on your decision! I'm glad I got to be a part of it! (I've been posting for a long time under various names.)

Dicey was the nickname of one of my ancestors, Laodicea Langston, in the Revolutionary War era. (Which is a Biblical name--one of the seven churches of Asia in Revelation--but I've always thought it was an odd choice since Laodicea was the only church that has only bad things said about it.)

Question... Dicey as a nn. for Laodicea seems like it would be pronounced "DEE-sy" -- is it? Likewise, Nicy as a nn. for Denise should be pronounced "NEE-sy." Is that how you're envisioning the pronunciations? I saw Dicey and Nicy and thought "DIE-sy" and "NIE-sy", as in Dice and Nice. Anyone have info on common pronunciations?

Now that I look back at Laura's list, she spells it Dicy... and part of the reason I assumed those pronunciations (apart from their spellings) was that she listed them with Spicy and Icy. Spicy! I can't imagine that one as a name! Icy seems like a viable nickname for something (Isis, for one).

Irene's Mom- I love Lois. I may have missed this but what are you thinking for a middle name? Loey and Lola are great nns for Lois and honestly I don't think I have EVER known a Lois personally. AND THAT IS A GREAT THING!! The only Lois I know of is Lois Lane and how could you go wrong? She is a beautiful, sucessful comic book/tv/movie character.

I have a good friend named Lois, and I've known a few others over the years. Maybe it's a regional thing? I'm from NY and I think it's a lovely name. I remember reading a book or play in a hs English class, in which there was a character named Lois, and the teacher was very insistent that it be pronounced "Loyce," rhyming w/ Joyce. There happened to be a Lois in the class, who gave her a big argument about it. [Not suggesting that pronunciation; just telling the story.]

Dicey, Nicey, Icey, etc. would all have been pronounced in the huge majority of cases as if they contained the word "ice".

English is a rather unusual language in that the "long" sound of the letter "i" normally became the "eye" sound. Most other European languages use "i" as the spelling for the "ee" sound. Before Americans had a lot of exposure to the way other languages pronounced names that contained "i", they tended to use the "eye" pronunciation. Up until the middle of the 19th century, Maria was usually pronounced "mah-RYE-uh" and Nina was pronounced "NINE-uh" in the USA. It's only with increased exposure to immigrants with names like Maria that the pronunciation of that name shifted to the more "general European" one of "mah-REE-uh". Mariah is actually a spelling that developed to indicate that the parents wanted what was the older American pronunciation of the name.

Thanks guys! We're going with Barbara as a mn because there is a childless aunt Barbara on both our sides and we love the idea of honoring both of them. Irene's mn is Cordelia.
I love the nn's suggested. Irene's nn in our family is... The Reenster. I don't really now how it evolved, but it fits.
Dh is a comic book fan so Lois is a name he loves, and I can get on board because it has real history behind it (like Irene).
Oh, and the ten names that 80% of the boys in England shared made me smile, because all three of my brothers have one of those names!

I have a problem - hypothetically. There is a name that I would love to use for my future daughter. Sadly, I have been using it for a cyber-handle for several years. Actually, the handle is 2 names strung together. I like them that way. My husband even kinds of likes it.
So, can I use it? Do I need to change my cyber name before the time comes when I can name my daughter?

I'd have to say no problem. Irene was my "alias" for years and my running buddy's was Loretta. Our daughters' names are now Irene and Loretta. I guess test driving them cemented how much we liked them!

"Expect Baby Deborah, Valerie, Brenda and Kathleen to come your way soon!"

I already know a Brenda who is 2 years old. Her 3 year old brother is Ricky, and her 1 year old brother is David.

I think they "fit" well with my daughter, Deanna, who is 2 years old.

Beth - I don't know if I like Ashlette per se, but I do always get a kick out of hearing new names, even when I hate them, which I often do. The depths of human creativity amaze me!

My question is, why do you (not just Beth, but many of you) seem to feel that a name made up in the year 2007 is somehow less valid than one made up in 1707? It seems to me that modern names may fit better in our culture and even sound better to our ears - we speak an very different language than that used even 50 years ago - if you watch old movies you know what I'm talking about. The rhythms and letter combinations that appealed to people then may not sound as appealing now.

Personally, I think giving a child a dowdy, old-fashioned name because you are trying to either make a statement or because retro is 'cool' amongst your social circle has the potential to marginalize a child as much as a kre8tive name does, if not more so.

As an aside on the rhyming sibling name issue, the Orson Scott Card books mentioned by the Letter K have brothers named Alvin and Calvin, and Calvin (little brother) grows up resenting Alivn terribly, complaining that he didn't even get his own name, just a knock-off of his brother's. This rang very true to me.

Names have such a huge psychological impact, it's no wonder we tie ourselves in knots trying to pick out the perfect name for our children!

The very fact people on the boards are reacting to "Lois Barbara" as a dowdy old-lady name -- while Hazel, Amelia, Violet and other names popular in the early 20th century climb the charts -- just shows that the notion of "so-old-it's-cool" is constantly changing with time. I think the mid-century girl's name is going to be the next big thing: Jane, Helen, Sally, Ruth. And Lois Barbara (which I like a lot) has exactly that vibe.

kristin dawn, you make an interesting point about contemporary names fitting in with contemporary language/speech. Personally, the reason I don't like many contemporary names (the ones that don't have much of a history behind them) is precisely because they so closely mirror contemporary culture. I don't think they're bad names, I'm just very turned off by names that I see as dated and tied to the decades when they were so popular. i.e. Mildred sounds bad to my ears and makes me think of an 80 year old, but Elizabeth doesn't make me think of any particular decade, and I can easily see an 80 year old and a newborn and a 60 year old and a 20 year old with that same name. That's just my preference... I like names that have been fairly consistently used throughout the past century, because I don't like the idea of my daughter's name ever sounding like "an 80 year old's name." But Madison and Aiden have their place in our culture, and while I don't personally like them, I think they're perfectly valid names.

Maybe those weren't the best examples, because I realize that neither Madison nor Aiden were recent creations... but you know what I mean!

LKB - That makes me think of a 45 yr old Ashley I know. She loves her name, because she says it makes her sound younger. Maybe 100 yr old Mildreds like having a name that sounds like an 80 yr old? :)

LKB, I agree that avoiding names that will shortly be date-stamped is desirable, but don't you think this sudden upswing in babies with old-fashioned names is going to peter out just as quickly as any trend does?

Hazel is popular largely because Julia Roberts named her daughter that. Mabel was the baby on Mad About You. Violet is the Bennifer baby. Ava is Reese Witherspoon's daughter. And as for Amelia, it fits in with more modern sounding baby names. In other words, even though these names have been around for a long time, they're as trendy as Jayden! While Elizabeth, on the other hand, is truly timeless.

It just seems like these oldie names are becoming an exercise in one-upsmanship - I can give my baby a more geriatric-sounding name than you!!

I think the Mary-Blank phenomenon originated back when practically every Catholic girl was being named Mary.

I couldn't get Laura's NPR thing to play on my computer. Can anyone give us the quick highlights?

Maybe some of the popularity of "oldie" names is a reaction to our somewhat youth obsessed culture. I, personally, think it's very sad how very hard so many people try to stay young. Aging is a beautiful, natural part of life that I am not afraid of, and I don't want my children to be afraid of either. With me, choosing "geriatric" names is kind of a way of saying old is OK by me. (Like my Mamaw always said, "Getting old sure beats the alternative.")
I also don't want to pick a name just because it's an old lady name, which is why I like Lois. It's biblical and it's firmly grounded in pop-culture, which I think removes it from the decade specific trap.
Hope I made sense!

One thing I don't think has been mentioned yet for Lois associations is Lois Griffin from Family Guy. It's my first thought, and I expect it would be the first thought of anybody in their teens and twenties at this point, moreso than Lois Lane. Not likely to be something your daughter's age group would pick up, but probably a lot of their parents would. Still, I think it's an all right name--not my style or my favorite, but still nice. I don't care much for Barbara; it is a little frumpy to my ear, and makes me think of Hanna-Barbera cartoons moreso than any particular person.

Kristin Dawn: you say, "Hazel is popular largely because Julia Roberts named her daughter that."

Hazel already on the rise when she named her daughter that at the end of 2004.

Popularity of the female name Hazel Year of birth Rank
2006 465
2005 517
2004 680
2003 680
2002 767
2001 750
2000 893
1999 915
1998 940

Julia Roberts's choice may have sped up recent use, but it didn't necessarily originate it. I know that Laura has talked about impact (or at least assumed impact) of celebrity naming in the past--and lots of times the celebs are following the same trends we are!

I agree with Kirsten, I think that many of the old lady/old man names that are so popular now will sound somewhat dated a decade from now. I was struck when someone said "Julia" was a timeless name. Well, sort of. Most Julias are either over 70 or under 15. Our kids will probably go back to Julie as sounding "fresh" or come up with something else. I did have a friend Julia at college (30s now) and remember thinking her name sounded so pretentious!

My guess is that the new names will cycle just like the old ones do. A few may never come back, but one day the "new" names of today will be a generation's way of honoring their grandparents. :)

Speaking of unusual names someone that passed away and was in the news today (in his eighties) had the name Burdette. Never heard that one before.

FWIW, I think Lois is cute with Irene. And I'm a big fan of honoring family with a middle name, no matter how weird it is. It adds character and meaning!

Cathie - Did Julia's personality have anything to do with the perception? I really do think of Julia as timeless, maybe just because I've seen it used in early 19th century lit.

Growing up a Valerie in the 1960's, it was clear to me that the name was already dated- in England at least- i.e. most people bearing that name were older than me. I remember Leslie Dunkling discussing this in a book and saying that the ideal was to have a name ahead of the curve and then people would assume on seeing your name that you were younger than you really are.... hmm... which buys into all the ageism someone was already mentioning today.
Maybe the resurgence of Valerie for babies is one reason why my name seems more appealing now- to me, as well as to others.

kristin dawn, i do think that the upswing of names like hazel and mabel will peter out quickly, leaving them sounding nearly as time-stamped as madison and aiden. what i was saying is that my preference is towards the truly timeless names... ones that are consistently popular from decade to decade... not just old names that have a resurgence in popularity. but my argument for names like hazel and mabel (and for names like emma and sophie) is that although they are going to be dated to this generation, they seem *more* timeless than madison and aiden because they can also be dated to another recent generation (the babies named emma and sophie may likely have great grandparents named emma and sophie) . anyway, it all comes down to preference, and i do think it's incredibly snooty to say that modern names aren't *real* names. i happen to like the timeless ones, myself... the ones that never drop below the top 1000 on laura's charts, and the ones with the least drastic fluctuations.

At least Lois Barbara will probably be the only one with that name in her class at school. I was K-12 substitue teacher last year, and I always found it refreshing to hear names that were a little old-fashioned and not so trendy in the younger grades. It was fun to hear names like Cora, Nancy, and Kathleen (my mom's name) for girls under 10!

I have an aunt Lois and just ran across another over the weekend. I remember her because I thought it was so unusual that her name was Lois. She was our waitress at a grill and bar and in her early to mid twenties with trendy clothes and long hair. It sure is a contrast to my aunt Lois! I had never really thought about my aunt Lois' name until I heard it on someone younger. I say go for it!

Of course, the problem with "timeless" names is that they may start to either surge or drop in popularity. Look at Mary, for example: it was a "timeless" name until the 1950's or so.

Both of my sons' names (Eliot and Graeme) were on Laura's list of timeless names, but I've seen Eliot mentioned quite a bit more lately, so I wonder if it will stay in the 400-range.

I just noticed that Elliott and Brynn (my daughter's name) are used in the Pottery Barn catalog as names for their furniture collections. They tend to use fairly trendy names, so I wonder if this is an indication of a jump in popularity. This could be a new rule for me--stay away from Pottery Barn names!

I think the names that are most likely to truly sound timeless are those that have been extremely popular for a long time, or those that are so odd or unusual that they will never be tied to any era.

Ok, fine, Julia Roberts was merely riding the Hazel popularity trend, whatever. Though I remember a band called Sister Hazel during the mid-90's that might have kicked it off.

I don't have anything against names from any day and age, as long as the name sounds pleasant and does not harm the child as it goes forth in life. I don't care if you name your child after a celebrity's dog if it sounds nice. Naming a child primarily as a statement of your own personal beliefs, (i.e., I hate today's cheap obnoxious culture evah-so) no matter how much grief it will cause for the child, gives me pause.

All I am saying is, this huge movement towards old-fashioned names is just as much of a trend as the Madison-Emerson thing. If you think you are bucking a trend by naming your child Hepzibah or Dwight, you aren't. In fact, you're being uber-trendy, trying to out-trend the trend. And everyone you tell your child's name to, will know it.

*Kristen Dawn:I agree 100% with your point that "giving a child a dowdy, old-fashioned name because you are trying to either make a statement or because retro is 'cool' amongst your social circle has the potential to marginalize a child as much as a kre8tive name does, if not more so."
You are right on. The people I know who have given their children such names are definitely trying to appear way cooler than they are. It would be one thing if the parents of little "Bertha" were confident and settled in their skin. (Not the actual name used, just examples!) But unfortunately, these couples are insecure and trying way too hard to keep up with what they perceive to be cool. They are, to use a term from the 90s, "posers" to the extreme, and sadly are bestowing some pretty tough names for their kids to pull off.
What is trendier than that?

I'm pretty sure Niecy as in Nash is pronounced NEE-sy.

Cleveland Kent Evans: That is so fascinating that I had to tell my husband! (He's into history.)

*MJ: That is so funny/true about the names in Pottery Barn. Two of my daughters names have appeared in PB a few years after I gave birth. It's most entertaining. I'm always saying to my husband: "Look - there's a lamp/rug/bedroom set with her name. It's a sign. We have to buy it."

Check out JCrew as well: my friend is having a girl and she emailed me the following list she calls her JCREW baby name list (perhaps it will give one of you an idea!):
Ava, Anya, Audrey, Amelia, Avery, Annabelle, Alexia, Bella, Ella, Stella, Betsy, Bridget, Catherine, Caroline, Camilla, Dani, Darcy, Emilia, Etta, Erin, Harper, Hadley, Jenna, Janey, Jennifer, Lia, Laurel, Lucia, Lucie, Lidia, Lyndsey, Lilah, Madison, Parker, Rafaella, Sophie, Sofia, Sarah, Sadie, Sabrina, Suzanna, Tenley, Whitney.

It's actually a pretty decent list of names!

Just wondering: have the people so concerned about finding a name that isn't "date-stamped" found the fountain of youth? We're going to live to age 70,80,maybe 90 and then we'll be dead. Are you worried that your great great great grandchildren will be flying around in their spaceship cars saying "Poor Great Great Great Grandma Madison. Her name was so 2007."

One last post (lots of opinions from me tonight) --

The mother I know with the daughter named "Bertha" is always saying: "I met these old ladies at the park and they LOVED Bertha's name! They couldn't get over it!" And I just want to say: "That's fantastic. Those old ladies are going to be dead in about 5 minutes. That leaves the rest of the world under age 99 who think Bertha is horrible and that you made a cruel choice."

I have a name that has to be added to the "icey" list. Pricey. I have met two of them in a really small town. One I know well, explained that it is an old name that used to be common in the area and is a family name. She had a great aunt or soemone named Precious as well.

Kristen Dawn - have to disagree with you about a couple of those names you mention. In our family Hazel is a name that has skipped a couple of generations but daughter has always pinned it for her first child, and Violet has been popular for around half a decade or so here in NZ. You may be confusing popular with Hollywood media, which is of less interest to many people interested or searching for names. Incidentally - your throwaway 'whatever' comment in your second posting because someone proved that Julia Roberts didn't actually start the Hazel 'trend' isn't particularly nice - being proven wrong isn't a great experience for anyone, but dealing with it in an adult manner sure helps...
Nina - jayden/kayden/charlysse/madysunn etc are far more cruel, being as they tag forever a child in both time and as cheap & dumb, whatever their life achievements. Bertha may not be the most beautiful name but it certainly doesn't hold the contemporary baggage the other name styles do.

Tansey - Oh, I agree that the bizarro spellings of the names you mentioned may not be the best choice either. My point was that the couple chose the "Bertha"-type name simply to be "cool" -- it was more about how THEY look rather than taking their child's future into consideration. (Again, the name wasn't actually Bertha, I just used that as the example.)

(Goodness! re: your "cheap and dumb" comment!!!)

Also, Tansey -- I don't think Kristen was referring to the use of old family names. I believe she was describing the trend, and it is a trend, to randomly use dowdy/old-fashioned names for the sake of looking "cutting edge". (If I may speak for you, kristen!)

I completely agree that ridiculous spellings are far worse than really old-fashioned names. Helen and Dorothy are much better than Mickinzi and Jaydyn (or anything else along those lines)!

I think it comes down to this - whatever name you choose it will be on some sort of fashion wave, just like the clothes you choose. Now I happen to think Bertha sounds pretty - all connotations aside. There are dowdy names I don't think sound pretty, such as Gertrude, but I wouldn't say they couldn't sound pretty to anybody. And I really find it hard to believe that any name that doesn't have some horrible real meaning, like say Liar or Swindler, is not being cruel to your child. And anyway, it's pretty easy to get a name change in the USA.
And, wow, I can't imagine thinking the opinions of someone whose life is coming to a close is irrelevant. There was a time when those folks were revered and their opinions, based on their more thorough life experience, were listened to with respect.
If a child is reared in a loving home, taught to be an independent thinker, and trained to feel confidence because of legitimate acheivements, no name is going to hold him back. IMO.

If I can throw my two cents in here, I think there is a huge naming constituency who pick names for their kids because they *gasp* just plain like the name. (Obviously none of us on here who over-analyze every name to death!)
Now, what that says about someone who likes Jayden versus someone who likes Millicent is down to what we (individually) perceive as the societal implications of said names. The mom of Jayden might think the mom of Millicent is cruel for naming her kid that, and vice versa.
The over-arching name trends that Laura so eloquently discusses here and in her book boil down to individual decisions made by each set of parents. Those decisions can be informed by the trends (choose to go w/ trend, away from trend, etc) but can also just be cases of "oh what a pretty name."
I doubt anyone chooses a name by examining which one might be the most pretentious...and besides, what is pretentious for one person is another person's cup of tea.

Kristin Dawn, I'm liking your staunch defense of newer names, though like LKB I do tend towards the "timeless in any decade" (i.e., potentially boring) names. I will say that to me, a name like Nevaeh made up in the 2000s and a name like Lodensy made up in the 19th century are equally absurd.

Nina, I think of "date-stamped" names as ones that are so trendy they'll be gone in 15-20 years, not a lifetime.

It's a drag when your old family name (mine is Caroline, alternating with Elizabeth for first daughters for 10, count 'em, 10 generations) shows up in the J Crew catalogue, but so be it. But I agree with the poster who said that honoring a family member is its own meaningful thing whatever the name is. Lois Barbara is also out of time-synch in an interesting way. I knew a Maud in college, now in her 40s, who had that name when nobody had old-fashioned names, and it was just fine.

I know it's snobby, but truly, the kre8tive spellings make me wince. I joked to my mom that my daughter would be Karyleighn.

Kristin Dawn has said much better was I was trying to say that was labeled as about old fashioned, dowdy names.

I just tried to remember when I was naming mine, that I'm not the one who is going to have to live with it. So, I tried to take into account things like: okay I live in the buckle of the Bible belt, in a very conservative area, so I cant go wrong if I pick a Bible name. Hannah is pretty popular, so there you go. Hannah is not my very most favorite name in the world, but it's a name that my daughter will be able to live with, that will age well, etc. And in my way of thinking there are so many ways to make a kid feel unique and special without resorting to giving them some oddball name because it's "uncommon" or super "old". Granted, Hannahs an old name, but trust me it has gone to the young ones to the extent you think of a little one when you hear it.

I just think names are a bad way to make a statement, personally. I know most people on here disagree-which is totally cool-to each their own-

but it does disturb me that so many people here avoid names that are popular-as if the cruelest thing you can do to a child is give them a name that isn't weird.

I know that non-standard spellings can be bothersome, but I think people are overreacting by using words like "cruel" and "cheap." I know a lot of adult Jacquelynns, each of whom seem to use a different spelling. They all like their names as far as I can tell. An extra "y" or a doubling of a letter is not going to ruin a kid's life. A few decades ago, the trend was to replace "Y" with "IE," e.g., Kathie, Sherrie, Lizzie, Vickie, Tracie, etc. I'm sure people were saying, what's wrong with the standard spellings? How are we going to know how to spell that? But the Vicky with a "y" was not treated any different than the Vickie with the "ie." Eventually the trend for these type of names died out.

So now we replace vowels with "Y." Both variations and cutsy and harmless. Even the crazy name snobs will treat little Aiden and Aidyn exactly the same when they meet them at their child's school. And that's a good thing. So on the cruelty scale, spelling your daughter's name Krystyn ranks very low.

I think parents inventing new names and parents resurrecting long-gone names often share the common desire to give their little one something unique. As has oft been pointed out, it's hard to do!
I have second cousins named Kate, Elizabeth, Angela, and Lisa. Personally, I prefer the first two, because while they're quite common, they don't instantly telegraph a particular era the way the latter two do.
I do agree that merely being old doesn't make a name classic or timeless. Some names-like Bertha- are probably best left in the past.
I admit I'm too snobby about some names, but it seems to be a reflex.
The worst thing about it is that when I hear certain names I immediately make a series of mental calculations about the child's mother and start looking around for someone who fits my idea of "_____'s mother."
Often I'm right, but that still doesn't make it o.k......
On the other hand, people hearing Jack and Henry at the playground are probably looking around for the old, boring mom, and they'd be right!

When I was in high school there was a girl named Greta in my class. I thought that it was a terrible name. An old lady name, and worse, a dog name. As time went on she became very popular, a cheerleader and very good and well known basketball player. I never heard anyone mention anything about her name, and since one of her good friends has named her child Greta.

Nina, I have to say, your remark about the fountain of youth was a little unnecessary. All that I was saying was that *I* like timeless names, for the reasons that I gave. That's just my preference, and I completely respect everyone else's preferences. Am I terribly worried that someone might think that my daughter has an old lady's name when she's an old lady? No. I just happen to like names that are more timeless than Mildred and Madison. What I love about this blog is that people share all sorts of opinions, and the conversation is generally intelligent and insightful. I don't think mocking has much of a place here. I think it's outrageous of you to say that someone who named their child Bertha is cruel. Everyone has their own reasons behind the names they choose, and talking about what names/trends you do and don't like is very different from claiming that parents who have tastes that differs from yours are cruel. Naming a child Dirtbag would be cruel; Bertha is a legitimate name, albeit out of fashion.

When I was writing my initial post I *knew* that some enterprising someone would immediately begin arguing with some small factual detail and ignore the larger concern I was addressing. I fully expected to be proved wrong on one or the other of the examples. Hence the 'whatever' comment. In retrospect I realize that 'whatever' means different things in different countries. Where I live it is not meant as anything harsh, people say it a million times a day. Whatever just means, "ok, you're right, but it isn't really important". I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I would rather name a child Madison a thousand times than Helen, though I don't like Nevaeh either. But I agree, to each their own, and I think I've said enough about the rest of it.

Great article Laura. I've also been having fun with the SSA data (along with data from other countries) as my wife and I try to find a great name.

I built a Google Maps mashup that plots popular baby names from around the world. Hopefully the site will be useful to others as well:

http://www.babynamemap.com

I respectfully disagree, LKB. I think it is cruel to name a baby girl Bertha in the year 2007. It's like you are just trying to make her an easy target on the playground. Because the truth is that, yeah-if you are rich, or beautiful, or have a super outgoing personality you can overcome any name. But what happens if you're not? If you are an inherently shy, sensitive person and you have a name like Bertha you are just kinda set up for a bad situation. You can usually know whether or not your kid will be rich. But that does guarantee the beauty or confidence to pull off a name like Bertha. And, hell, if you think about having a name like Bertha might be a contributing factor to shyness and being socially awkward. So, yeah, it is mean when parents name their children names like Bertha.

One more thing...I would posit that anyone who doesn't think naming their child 'Bertha' in 2007 is cruel, is a person who grew up with a well-known and/or popular name and has never known what it is like going to bed at night praying you'll wake up as a Jill.

Many studies have shown that people have clear preferences for popular names over unpopular, and that they immediately attribute personality characteristics to people based on something as trivial as their names.

Nina, and others, thanks for helping me out there! I enjoyed the posts a lot!

I think a lot of (I have to say it) foolish things are being assumed here: how can you know what sort of names will sound "frumpy" to the children being born today? Little ones born these days will not have the same ears you have . . . it is hard to know how a name like Agatha or Bertha will sound in this new context, but it won't sound like it did when we were growing up.

People choosing old-fashioned names may be doing so for any number of reasons: it may be to honor family; it may be because older names sound fresher to these parents because they've been absent from the popular culture for some time; it may be that they are trying (yes, just like the parents of Madisyn and Ayden) to have a trendy (for their crowd) name. It may be something else altogether.

I think one of the ways a name becomes a classic is that generations return to it, even if it hibernates for a few years, finding it worth reclaiming. This is the case with names like Helen and Elizabeth, and also with some newer, emerging classics.

Kristin Dawn, I'm not sure what studies you're talking about or what you think they reveal (it isn't really clear to me from your comments - are you really saying "people like popular names?" Or that a popular name will make a person more popular?) but I can attest to being an exception to the conclusions you draw:

I don't have a common or trendy name, I never wanted one while growing up (in fact I was always compelled by fresh or unusual names that I came across in literature) and I don't think it is in the least cruel to resist the temptation (ha!) to choose a kre8tive or trendy name.

Many of the names I like are not in common rotation, and part of why I like them is that I don't have too many associations with the name.

Some old names are wonderful. Some are not so great, to my ears. But I wouldn't be so quick to assume that that a parent is choosing an old name just to be uber-cool. Why would you? Why must these discussions so often devolve into displays of defensiveness and class anxiety?

Well, we have 14 weeks to come up with a name for our son. We have girls and I was all set with a list of great girl names--but now I'm stumped. The last name is Dillard and dh has nixed most of my half-hearted list. I'm considering Donovan or Donal (Irish)as a middle name to honor family members.

Andrew --nn Drew (dh likes this one, but I'm hearing it everywhere)
Trey

Not much of a list, eh?

Back to the top: I always understood that both Aissa (John Wayne's daughter) and Assia (Ted Hughes' second wife) were variants of Aisha/Ayesha. When Arabic names are translated into another language the spelling changes dramatically. For example: the Arabic name which means 'rose' is spelled 'Warda' in England and 'Ouarda' in France. A whole new pool of names to consider....

I'm trying to figure out why all the hate for "Bertha".

I've known a few Bertas (Robertas) and they pulled it off fine.

Is it "Big Bertha"? Why are some old names ugly and others nice? The bad old lady names for me are Mildred (contains DREAD) and Gertrude (contains RUDE) and Doris (contains DOR, as in DORK and ISS as in PISS). Marge has the LARGE thing.

Bertha to me sounds soft to the ear. Why isn't it "cool"?

I agree, Laney, Berta/Bertha isn't a horrible name to my ears either--and not in the "more homely than thou" sense either. Berta pronounced by a Spanish speaker (BAIR-tah) has none of the "BUR" sound that seems to bother some...and the French Berthe also has some grace to it.

And it's not like names are immutable--if your parents give you a name you find troublesome, there are always nicknames and middle names to fall back on. If Bertha finds her name hard to carry, she can go by Betsy, or Beri, or Bird, or by her middle name, or initials--nobody is "doomed" to use a name they personally dislike.

But then I quite like Edith, Louise, Dorothea, Iris, and Flora too--and I named my daughter Helen--which I completely love, obviously. Turns out she does too, so far (at age 7).

Maybe some of this taste difference has to do with your experiences with older people? I grew up with a wondrous grandmother, and her large circle of friends, and I've always worked well around older women--I like them, a lot. So their names usually have very positive associations for me. But if you haven't been around a lot of older people, or you've only known them in unpleasant situations, maybe that affects your ability to see the names of 1920 attached to beautiful, stylish, funny, smart women?

I'm going to clarify: "Bertha" was not the actual name used. I am hesitant to post the actual name, but it is NOT by any means close to Helen, Flora or Iris, which fit with the current trends by sounding old and sweet. And in this particular case, the said name was absolutely chosen because these parents want to appear cool. Sure, it's not always the case, but it IS here, and that is not fair to the kids.

J&H mom: I'm in Boston, and I know many, many moms with boys named Jack and a few with a Henry (one has a Henry, Jack and a Gus!) and they are not boring in the least! :)

I think it is funny that Kristin Dawn says she "would rather name a child Madison a thousand times than Helen" ... I guess I didn't realize that Madison was a new trendy name ... Madison is an established place and surname isn't it? Personally I am not a huge fan of Madison either -- but just to put it in perspective, I was in High School when Madison wasn't nearly as common.

Hey, Sarah, thanks for your info on the Aissa/Assia question! Since John Wayne's wife, Pilar (pretty name in itself) was Peruvian, I was wondering if "Aissa" had special significance for her. I did guess it might be of Arabic derivation, but was totally in the dark re "Assia". Your comments re the translations of names-- fascinating.

And speaking of name translations-- in high school I knew someone named "Ibolika" (sp?). Rats, I'm not remembering if that was perhaps Hungarian, or maybe one of the Baltic languages, like Latvian? At any rate, she said it meant "violet", so she elected to go by that name while living in an English-speaking country...

I preferred "Ibolika"! And her nickname was "Ibi" (EEby).

What was the name since it wasn't Bertha? Is it Myrtle?

I do totally know what you mean Nina. But those people naming their kids uber old and frumpy names are still just part of the old people name trend. What they name their kids may seem extreme and annoying now but will probably sound fine to their peers and will probably be ahead of the curve.

This old people baby name trend seems to be already moving from Rose, Emma and Clara to Esther, Helena and Alice and pretty soon it will be hitting Gladys, Ethel and Edna...doncha think?

I'm disappointed at the mean and snarky tone that is starting to creep in here. Do we really want Laura to have to come in here and scold us? Or have to start moderating and approving posts, or even shut down the comments feature altogether? That has happened on some of my other favorite blogs, and its really too bad.

Probably something Slavic, Eo--the word for "violet" in Serbo-Croatian is "ljubicica," which isn't too far from the name you're remembering.

Eleni, Kristin Dawn is correct. If you give people a set of random facts about a made-up person, the made-up person gets rated as more likeable, smarter, more competent, etc. with a name that is widely perceived as beautiful than with a name that is widely perceived as ugly. It's unfortunate, and not something we want to believe about human nature, but its true.

I completely agree with Meg. I've only recently discovered this blog, have been slowly skimming through the archives, and one of the things I really like is that people are nice, respectful of each other, and literate. (I can't tolerate poor grammar, spelling, and punctuation.) Even last week, which morphed into a discussion of religious names--certainly a potentially touchy subject!--didn't get "mean and snarky" like this has. Come on, people, we can disagree without being nasty.

Oh, I'm just loving this discussion! Having grown up with an uncommon name (at least when I was a kid) was a total PIA. No other way around it. Nobody could say it-I went through school saying "Like Melissa without the M", nobody could spell it & even worse-nobody could remember it. I've been called Lois, Elizabeth, Allison, Alisha, Alicia, Melissa, Alice, and on & on. I've had teachers READ my name is Melissa or Allison because they assumed the roll chart had a typo. The first Alissa/Alyssa besides myself that I ever heard of was Alyssa Milano-and Who's the Boss wasn't even on until I was jr. high/high school age. I always wished I had a more common name. That said-I had enough friends named Jennifer or some variation of Chris that I understood, even at a young age, that I didn't want a name that was too common. I understood their pain at going through life as Chris A./Chris B./Chris with the long hair/etc. that I new that was just as bad as my "weird" name. Only in the past 5 years or so have I....

...started to hear about other real life Alissa's (usually with a Y) and almost always the newborn niece of someone's next door neighbor. Just last year I met my first Alissa/Alyssa in real life--she's 3 and was in my son's preschool class. So-that said, I like old fashioned names & always have. Not because they are trendy-but because they are familiar and comfortable and I don't have to ever worry about someone saying "Margaret" wrong. I don't want my kids to go through life always having to explain their name, or worse-having people constantly forget it. Sitting with a teacher for an entire year & having her still have to ask your name come spring break is not exactly fun. Super trendy names (Madison, etc) are just todays Jennifer. Not a bad name at all-but in honor of all my friends named Chris, I shall stay away. And as for Kre8tif spellings, well see my comments about people assuming my name was a typo. So, I shall stick with the old & timeless. If that happens to be a trend right now, so be it.

This has been mentioned before, but "old" doesn't automatically mean "timeless." Gertrude is old, but not timeless. Elizabeth is old AND timeless. I think the only names that will never be trendy (why does everyone hate this word so much anyway??) are those like Elizabeth, Catherine, Michael, William, etc. Is it trendy to use a creative spelling today? Yes. Is it trendy to use an old and frumpier "grandparent-y" name today? Yes. Is it trendy to use a surname for a son OR a daughter today? Yes. I guess my point (do I even have one? my head hurts) is that everyone reacts so negatively when they hear that the name they chose is described as "trendy." In my opinion, the only trend-free namers are those that use Elizabeth or Michael. God, I'm babbling.

Laney, I do think Gladys, Ethel and Edna are coming soon. I've already been surprised by the use of names like Agnes and Agatha. Esther is already being used as well, which I think goes much better with more contemporary names... but the point is that soon, Gladys, Ethel and Edna will sound contemporary! These names aren't my preference, but I say all power to them.

Nina, you are right about the trends that you point out. Elizabeth will probably never be a trendy name, because it's been in such consistent use for hundreds of years... unless, of course, at some time in the distant future it falls out of use entirely and then starts to come back up in trends. But you seem to be so angry at the idea of people naming their kids trendy names and claiming they're not trendy, and I don't understand why. What's wrong with using a trendy name, and what's wrong with not knowing/thinking it's trendy? I think it shows a bit of ignorance, and it's a little annoying. But are these parents being cruel or doing something

wrong? No, they're just maybe being a little silly, at worst. At best, they're trying to bestow upon their child the best name they can (by whatever standards they're going by), and that's what all of us do. Also, I will just point out that Michael actually was a trendy name. Look at the voyager charts... Michael is on par with Jennifer, only a bit more timeless. People who named their children Michael in the 70s and 80s were very much part of a trend.

Also, to echo what was said before, I don't think the Berthas of today will stand out the way they might have 20 years ago. With peers named Agnes and Mabel, I think Bertha will fit right in, and I do think it's a bit ahead of the curve -- meaning that the trend will come soon. You have to remember that Bertha was a trendy name in its day. People thought it sounded beautiful. And fashion cycles in and out, and I think there's a good chance that a large number of people do or WILL find it beautiful again. In 1920, I'm willing to bet that a name like Ashley or Jayden would sound pretty weird. Fashion changes! The kids of today do NOT hear things that way that their parents do, and it's ridiculous to compare a Bertha of the 70s to a Bertha of 2007 in terms of how her peers will receive her name.

LKB - Oh! There is nothing wrong with using a "trendy" name -- not my point at all. I think two of my three daughters have what would be considered trendy names, in fact. I'm not sure how my last post sounded angry -- I'm certainly not. I think I was just trying to echo Kristen that on this board, people seem to express quite often that an old-fashioned name is NOT trendy, and imply that for that reason, an old-fashioned name is BETTER than the more modern names. My feeling is that the use of either type of name is trendy in today's culture...and there is nothing wrong with that. (Although I am greatly annoyed by this one particular couple I know who are trying way too hard to be cool. I wish I could post the name they gave their daughter, but I already mentioned that I live in Boston, and I don't want to be "discovered!!")

Nina, thanks for clarifying. Sometimes it can be very hard to pick up on tone in internet writing! I agree with you that picking an old-fashioned name can be just as trendy as a newer creation. And I'm a little disappointed that you can't tell us what name you're talking about -- I'm very, very curious! I will say, though, that I see a difference in picking a name that is old & trendy and just picking a name that is out of fashion. i.e. The fashion seems to be that names used about 90-100 years ago are coming back in, whereas names used 50 years ago (or in other decades) are not. Betty and Linda and Cheryl and Judy are not back yet. I'm not saying that people who pick those names can't fit into the current trend of "picking a retro name is in," but I see those names as belonging to a very different kind of trend than Hazel and Mabel and Esther. I'm not saying either one is better (quite frankly, none are my style), but I make a distinction between those camps.

The Hazel-Mabel camp being much more "in" and sounding much more contemporary, the Betty-Linda camp sounding much more out of place today.

Julianne - Andrew is a good, timeless name. My perception of Trey is like my perception of Junior since the only guy I've known named Trey was Something Something Something III, but really I don't think most people would think that way!
What are your girls' names? Maybe that would shed light on your style preferences?

I actually see quite a lot of 50's names as trendy with a certain set of people. Rockabilly parents (which there are many of since people who dress like this are mostly between 25 and 40)are naming their kids Ellie Mae, Cash, Ginger...

What year do you all think 50's names will come back for reals? Like Peggy Sue, etc?

"Cash" has a huge, huge spike on the baby name wizard.

Yes, the reason people dislike Bertha so much IS because of "Big Bertha". Ever since that darn German cannon became famous under that nickname in World War I, "Bertha" has been used in popular culture to telegraph the idea that a woman is fat, and often also loud and bombastic, like a cannon. Screenwriters, cartoonists, and even people who give brand names to golf clubs have continually reinforced that association over the years. So when I give "name stereotype" tests to my students, Bertha is always the name where there is the most agreement -- the huge majority still think "obese" when they hear "Bertha". Because obesity is considered SUCH a bad thing in our culture (young kids will tell researchers they'd rather lose a limb than be fat), it will be really difficult for Bertha to revive as a name in the USA soon, even though the other names of the 1880s that were popu