The Baby Name Wizard

I think parents inventing new names and parents resurrecting long-gone names often share the common desire to give their little one something unique. As has oft been pointed out, it's hard to do!
I have second cousins named Kate, Elizabeth, Angela, and Lisa. Personally, I prefer the first two, because while they're quite common, they don't instantly telegraph a particular era the way the latter two do.
I do agree that merely being old doesn't make a name classic or timeless. Some names-like Bertha- are probably best left in the past.
I admit I'm too snobby about some names, but it seems to be a reflex.
The worst thing about it is that when I hear certain names I immediately make a series of mental calculations about the child's mother and start looking around for someone who fits my idea of "_____'s mother."
Often I'm right, but that still doesn't make it o.k......
On the other hand, people hearing Jack and Henry at the playground are probably looking around for the old, boring mom, and they'd be right!

When I was in high school there was a girl named Greta in my class. I thought that it was a terrible name. An old lady name, and worse, a dog name. As time went on she became very popular, a cheerleader and very good and well known basketball player. I never heard anyone mention anything about her name, and since one of her good friends has named her child Greta.

Nina, I have to say, your remark about the fountain of youth was a little unnecessary. All that I was saying was that *I* like timeless names, for the reasons that I gave. That's just my preference, and I completely respect everyone else's preferences. Am I terribly worried that someone might think that my daughter has an old lady's name when she's an old lady? No. I just happen to like names that are more timeless than Mildred and Madison. What I love about this blog is that people share all sorts of opinions, and the conversation is generally intelligent and insightful. I don't think mocking has much of a place here. I think it's outrageous of you to say that someone who named their child Bertha is cruel. Everyone has their own reasons behind the names they choose, and talking about what names/trends you do and don't like is very different from claiming that parents who have tastes that differs from yours are cruel. Naming a child Dirtbag would be cruel; Bertha is a legitimate name, albeit out of fashion.

When I was writing my initial post I *knew* that some enterprising someone would immediately begin arguing with some small factual detail and ignore the larger concern I was addressing. I fully expected to be proved wrong on one or the other of the examples. Hence the 'whatever' comment. In retrospect I realize that 'whatever' means different things in different countries. Where I live it is not meant as anything harsh, people say it a million times a day. Whatever just means, "ok, you're right, but it isn't really important". I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I would rather name a child Madison a thousand times than Helen, though I don't like Nevaeh either. But I agree, to each their own, and I think I've said enough about the rest of it.

Great article Laura. I've also been having fun with the SSA data (along with data from other countries) as my wife and I try to find a great name.

I built a Google Maps mashup that plots popular baby names from around the world. Hopefully the site will be useful to others as well:

http://www.babynamemap.com

I respectfully disagree, LKB. I think it is cruel to name a baby girl Bertha in the year 2007. It's like you are just trying to make her an easy target on the playground. Because the truth is that, yeah-if you are rich, or beautiful, or have a super outgoing personality you can overcome any name. But what happens if you're not? If you are an inherently shy, sensitive person and you have a name like Bertha you are just kinda set up for a bad situation. You can usually know whether or not your kid will be rich. But that does guarantee the beauty or confidence to pull off a name like Bertha. And, hell, if you think about having a name like Bertha might be a contributing factor to shyness and being socially awkward. So, yeah, it is mean when parents name their children names like Bertha.

One more thing...I would posit that anyone who doesn't think naming their child 'Bertha' in 2007 is cruel, is a person who grew up with a well-known and/or popular name and has never known what it is like going to bed at night praying you'll wake up as a Jill.

Many studies have shown that people have clear preferences for popular names over unpopular, and that they immediately attribute personality characteristics to people based on something as trivial as their names.

Nina, and others, thanks for helping me out there! I enjoyed the posts a lot!

I think a lot of (I have to say it) foolish things are being assumed here: how can you know what sort of names will sound "frumpy" to the children being born today? Little ones born these days will not have the same ears you have . . . it is hard to know how a name like Agatha or Bertha will sound in this new context, but it won't sound like it did when we were growing up.

People choosing old-fashioned names may be doing so for any number of reasons: it may be to honor family; it may be because older names sound fresher to these parents because they've been absent from the popular culture for some time; it may be that they are trying (yes, just like the parents of Madisyn and Ayden) to have a trendy (for their crowd) name. It may be something else altogether.

I think one of the ways a name becomes a classic is that generations return to it, even if it hibernates for a few years, finding it worth reclaiming. This is the case with names like Helen and Elizabeth, and also with some newer, emerging classics.

Kristin Dawn, I'm not sure what studies you're talking about or what you think they reveal (it isn't really clear to me from your comments - are you really saying "people like popular names?" Or that a popular name will make a person more popular?) but I can attest to being an exception to the conclusions you draw:

I don't have a common or trendy name, I never wanted one while growing up (in fact I was always compelled by fresh or unusual names that I came across in literature) and I don't think it is in the least cruel to resist the temptation (ha!) to choose a kre8tive or trendy name.

Many of the names I like are not in common rotation, and part of why I like them is that I don't have too many associations with the name.

Some old names are wonderful. Some are not so great, to my ears. But I wouldn't be so quick to assume that that a parent is choosing an old name just to be uber-cool. Why would you? Why must these discussions so often devolve into displays of defensiveness and class anxiety?

Well, we have 14 weeks to come up with a name for our son. We have girls and I was all set with a list of great girl names--but now I'm stumped. The last name is Dillard and dh has nixed most of my half-hearted list. I'm considering Donovan or Donal (Irish)as a middle name to honor family members.

Andrew --nn Drew (dh likes this one, but I'm hearing it everywhere)
Trey

Not much of a list, eh?

Back to the top: I always understood that both Aissa (John Wayne's daughter) and Assia (Ted Hughes' second wife) were variants of Aisha/Ayesha. When Arabic names are translated into another language the spelling changes dramatically. For example: the Arabic name which means 'rose' is spelled 'Warda' in England and 'Ouarda' in France. A whole new pool of names to consider....

I'm trying to figure out why all the hate for "Bertha".

I've known a few Bertas (Robertas) and they pulled it off fine.

Is it "Big Bertha"? Why are some old names ugly and others nice? The bad old lady names for me are Mildred (contains DREAD) and Gertrude (contains RUDE) and Doris (contains DOR, as in DORK and ISS as in PISS). Marge has the LARGE thing.

Bertha to me sounds soft to the ear. Why isn't it "cool"?

I agree, Laney, Berta/Bertha isn't a horrible name to my ears either--and not in the "more homely than thou" sense either. Berta pronounced by a Spanish speaker (BAIR-tah) has none of the "BUR" sound that seems to bother some...and the French Berthe also has some grace to it.

And it's not like names are immutable--if your parents give you a name you find troublesome, there are always nicknames and middle names to fall back on. If Bertha finds her name hard to carry, she can go by Betsy, or Beri, or Bird, or by her middle name, or initials--nobody is "doomed" to use a name they personally dislike.

But then I quite like Edith, Louise, Dorothea, Iris, and Flora too--and I named my daughter Helen--which I completely love, obviously. Turns out she does too, so far (at age 7).

Maybe some of this taste difference has to do with your experiences with older people? I grew up with a wondrous grandmother, and her large circle of friends, and I've always worked well around older women--I like them, a lot. So their names usually have very positive associations for me. But if you haven't been around a lot of older people, or you've only known them in unpleasant situations, maybe that affects your ability to see the names of 1920 attached to beautiful, stylish, funny, smart women?

I'm going to clarify: "Bertha" was not the actual name used. I am hesitant to post the actual name, but it is NOT by any means close to Helen, Flora or Iris, which fit with the current trends by sounding old and sweet. And in this particular case, the said name was absolutely chosen because these parents want to appear cool. Sure, it's not always the case, but it IS here, and that is not fair to the kids.

J&H mom: I'm in Boston, and I know many, many moms with boys named Jack and a few with a Henry (one has a Henry, Jack and a Gus!) and they are not boring in the least! :)

I think it is funny that Kristin Dawn says she "would rather name a child Madison a thousand times than Helen" ... I guess I didn't realize that Madison was a new trendy name ... Madison is an established place and surname isn't it? Personally I am not a huge fan of Madison either -- but just to put it in perspective, I was in High School when Madison wasn't nearly as common.

Hey, Sarah, thanks for your info on the Aissa/Assia question! Since John Wayne's wife, Pilar (pretty name in itself) was Peruvian, I was wondering if "Aissa" had special significance for her. I did guess it might be of Arabic derivation, but was totally in the dark re "Assia". Your comments re the translations of names-- fascinating.

And speaking of name translations-- in high school I knew someone named "Ibolika" (sp?). Rats, I'm not remembering if that was perhaps Hungarian, or maybe one of the Baltic languages, like Latvian? At any rate, she said it meant "violet", so she elected to go by that name while living in an English-speaking country...

I preferred "Ibolika"! And her nickname was "Ibi" (EEby).

What was the name since it wasn't Bertha? Is it Myrtle?

I do totally know what you mean Nina. But those people naming their kids uber old and frumpy names are still just part of the old people name trend. What they name their kids may seem extreme and annoying now but will probably sound fine to their peers and will probably be ahead of the curve.

This old people baby name trend seems to be already moving from Rose, Emma and Clara to Esther, Helena and Alice and pretty soon it will be hitting Gladys, Ethel and Edna...doncha think?

I'm disappointed at the mean and snarky tone that is starting to creep in here. Do we really want Laura to have to come in here and scold us? Or have to start moderating and approving posts, or even shut down the comments feature altogether? That has happened on some of my other favorite blogs, and its really too bad.

Probably something Slavic, Eo--the word for "violet" in Serbo-Croatian is "ljubicica," which isn't too far from the name you're remembering.

Eleni, Kristin Dawn is correct. If you give people a set of random facts about a made-up person, the made-up person gets rated as more likeable, smarter, more competent, etc. with a name that is widely perceived as beautiful than with a name that is widely perceived as ugly. It's unfortunate, and not something we want to believe about human nature, but its true.

I completely agree with Meg. I've only recently discovered this blog, have been slowly skimming through the archives, and one of the things I really like is that people are nice, respectful of each other, and literate. (I can't tolerate poor grammar, spelling, and punctuation.) Even last week, which morphed into a discussion of religious names--certainly a potentially touchy subject!--didn't get "mean and snarky" like this has. Come on, people, we can disagree without being nasty.

Oh, I'm just loving this discussion! Having grown up with an uncommon name (at least when I was a kid) was a total PIA. No other way around it. Nobody could say it-I went through school saying "Like Melissa without the M", nobody could spell it & even worse-nobody could remember it. I've been called Lois, Elizabeth, Allison, Alisha, Alicia, Melissa, Alice, and on & on. I've had teachers READ my name is Melissa or Allison because they assumed the roll chart had a typo. The first Alissa/Alyssa besides myself that I ever heard of was Alyssa Milano-and Who's the Boss wasn't even on until I was jr. high/high school age. I always wished I had a more common name. That said-I had enough friends named Jennifer or some variation of Chris that I understood, even at a young age, that I didn't want a name that was too common. I understood their pain at going through life as Chris A./Chris B./Chris with the long hair/etc. that I new that was just as bad as my "weird" name. Only in the past 5 years or so have I....

...started to hear about other real life Alissa's (usually with a Y) and almost always the newborn niece of someone's next door neighbor. Just last year I met my first Alissa/Alyssa in real life--she's 3 and was in my son's preschool class. So-that said, I like old fashioned names & always have. Not because they are trendy-but because they are familiar and comfortable and I don't have to ever worry about someone saying "Margaret" wrong. I don't want my kids to go through life always having to explain their name, or worse-having people constantly forget it. Sitting with a teacher for an entire year & having her still have to ask your name come spring break is not exactly fun. Super trendy names (Madison, etc) are just todays Jennifer. Not a bad name at all-but in honor of all my friends named Chris, I shall stay away. And as for Kre8tif spellings, well see my comments about people assuming my name was a typo. So, I shall stick with the old & timeless. If that happens to be a trend right now, so be it.

This has been mentioned before, but "old" doesn't automatically mean "timeless." Gertrude is old, but not timeless. Elizabeth is old AND timeless. I think the only names that will never be trendy (why does everyone hate this word so much anyway??) are those like Elizabeth, Catherine, Michael, William, etc. Is it trendy to use a creative spelling today? Yes. Is it trendy to use an old and frumpier "grandparent-y" name today? Yes. Is it trendy to use a surname for a son OR a daughter today? Yes. I guess my point (do I even have one? my head hurts) is that everyone reacts so negatively when they hear that the name they chose is described as "trendy." In my opinion, the only trend-free namers are those that use Elizabeth or Michael. God, I'm babbling.

Laney, I do think Gladys, Ethel and Edna are coming soon. I've already been surprised by the use of names like Agnes and Agatha. Esther is already being used as well, which I think goes much better with more contemporary names... but the point is that soon, Gladys, Ethel and Edna will sound contemporary! These names aren't my preference, but I say all power to them.

Nina, you are right about the trends that you point out. Elizabeth will probably never be a trendy name, because it's been in such consistent use for hundreds of years... unless, of course, at some time in the distant future it falls out of use entirely and then starts to come back up in trends. But you seem to be so angry at the idea of people naming their kids trendy names and claiming they're not trendy, and I don't understand why. What's wrong with using a trendy name, and what's wrong with not knowing/thinking it's trendy? I think it shows a bit of ignorance, and it's a little annoying. But are these parents being cruel or doing something

wrong? No, they're just maybe being a little silly, at worst. At best, they're trying to bestow upon their child the best name they can (by whatever standards they're going by), and that's what all of us do. Also, I will just point out that Michael actually was a trendy name. Look at the voyager charts... Michael is on par with Jennifer, only a bit more timeless. People who named their children Michael in the 70s and 80s were very much part of a trend.

Also, to echo what was said before, I don't think the Berthas of today will stand out the way they might have 20 years ago. With peers named Agnes and Mabel, I think Bertha will fit right in, and I do think it's a bit ahead of the curve -- meaning that the trend will come soon. You have to remember that Bertha was a trendy name in its day. People thought it sounded beautiful. And fashion cycles in and out, and I think there's a good chance that a large number of people do or WILL find it beautiful again. In 1920, I'm willing to bet that a name like Ashley or Jayden would sound pretty weird. Fashion changes! The kids of today do NOT hear things that way that their parents do, and it's ridiculous to compare a Bertha of the 70s to a Bertha of 2007 in terms of how her peers will receive her name.

LKB - Oh! There is nothing wrong with using a "trendy" name -- not my point at all. I think two of my three daughters have what would be considered trendy names, in fact. I'm not sure how my last post sounded angry -- I'm certainly not. I think I was just trying to echo Kristen that on this board, people seem to express quite often that an old-fashioned name is NOT trendy, and imply that for that reason, an old-fashioned name is BETTER than the more modern names. My feeling is that the use of either type of name is trendy in today's culture...and there is nothing wrong with that. (Although I am greatly annoyed by this one particular couple I know who are trying way too hard to be cool. I wish I could post the name they gave their daughter, but I already mentioned that I live in Boston, and I don't want to be "discovered!!")

Nina, thanks for clarifying. Sometimes it can be very hard to pick up on tone in internet writing! I agree with you that picking an old-fashioned name can be just as trendy as a newer creation. And I'm a little disappointed that you can't tell us what name you're talking about -- I'm very, very curious! I will say, though, that I see a difference in picking a name that is old & trendy and just picking a name that is out of fashion. i.e. The fashion seems to be that names used about 90-100 years ago are coming back in, whereas names used 50 years ago (or in other decades) are not. Betty and Linda and Cheryl and Judy are not back yet. I'm not saying that people who pick those names can't fit into the current trend of "picking a retro name is in," but I see those names as belonging to a very different kind of trend than Hazel and Mabel and Esther. I'm not saying either one is better (quite frankly, none are my style), but I make a distinction between those camps.

The Hazel-Mabel camp being much more "in" and sounding much more contemporary, the Betty-Linda camp sounding much more out of place today.

Julianne - Andrew is a good, timeless name. My perception of Trey is like my perception of Junior since the only guy I've known named Trey was Something Something Something III, but really I don't think most people would think that way!
What are your girls' names? Maybe that would shed light on your style preferences?

I actually see quite a lot of 50's names as trendy with a certain set of people. Rockabilly parents (which there are many of since people who dress like this are mostly between 25 and 40)are naming their kids Ellie Mae, Cash, Ginger...

What year do you all think 50's names will come back for reals? Like Peggy Sue, etc?

"Cash" has a huge, huge spike on the baby name wizard.

Yes, the reason people dislike Bertha so much IS because of "Big Bertha". Ever since that darn German cannon became famous under that nickname in World War I, "Bertha" has been used in popular culture to telegraph the idea that a woman is fat, and often also loud and bombastic, like a cannon. Screenwriters, cartoonists, and even people who give brand names to golf clubs have continually reinforced that association over the years. So when I give "name stereotype" tests to my students, Bertha is always the name where there is the most agreement -- the huge majority still think "obese" when they hear "Bertha". Because obesity is considered SUCH a bad thing in our culture (young kids will tell researchers they'd rather lose a limb than be fat), it will be really difficult for Bertha to revive as a name in the USA soon, even though the other names of the 1880s that were popular when it last was such as Mabel, Ida, Clara, Ella, Cora, etc. are all already strongly revived or will probably soon be back. :)

Guys, I don't think anyone is being mean or snarky, at least not deliberately. If that is directed at me, again, I apologize. Also, I would suspect we are all pretty much from the same socio-economic strata as we can afford computers and have the free time to sit around typing on them. So I don't think we are looking at classist warfare, either. Just an honest disagreement.

To sum up-

*I feel that the old-fashioned name thing is as much of a trend as kre8tive/superpopular names are.

*I have picked up on an air of moral superiority from some people regarding newer names that I don't enjoy, and so decided to address the issue.

*I think giving your child too much of an oddball name is not a good idea, whether it is old-fashioned or modern.

*I like names from many different eras, as long as they sound nice. Jayden is a nice sounding name. So is Violet.

*People will judge children on their names throughout their life, but in childhood particularly.

How funny ClevelandKentEvans. I guess it's obvious I'm not a history buff. My association with Bertha is from a kid's book The Westing Game which has a tall, thin, rigid woman named Bertha Erica Crow (actually the book was by the author of the Leon/Noel book).
Kristin Dawn - very valid points. However, I still think it's hard to say what sounds nice, because that is so wildly subjective. Although I'm sure it happens, I think it's the rare parents that choose a name that they don't think sounds nice. I agree with you, though, that people are judged by their names and parents should examine their motives for choosing any name.

My Bertha story - my stepmother's grandmother was named Bertha, and her daughter Violet really wanted to name her daughter that, but felt she couldn't, because it was too outdated. So she named her Roberta instead (my stepmother). Kind of like Bertha, but modern, at the time.

I truly think that is the way to go with some of the older names, to find a way to jazz it up and modernize it while still giving homage to the appeal of the original name.

As is true for most naming trends much depends on who you know and where you live. I grew up in California with a lot of Asian Americans. A number of my friends born in the early 70s were given names we've been discussing. Durign childhood I had good friends named Helen, Sophia, Mabel, Martha, and Meredith as well as the more "typical" Danielle, Amy, Jennifer/Jenny/Jen, Heather, and Kristen. Because of this context none of those "old" names have ever sounded old to me while other old names have. As a pp noted the children of today will hear Agatha or Isis differently than we did. As parents it's nearly impossible to avoid being trendy (even if the trend is anti-trendy). The best we can do is consider the context of our world (family, friends, trends of 2007) and what sounds good to us and go from there. Personally I'm not a fan of either Madison or Agatha but I respect parents who choose either name with care.

Also, Bertha rhymes with girth. And makes me think of birth. While I think the image of pregnancy and birthing is a fantastically beautiful one, it's not something I'd want a name to carry. On the other hand, I really can see Bertha as a soft and lyrical name, IF I put those associations on hold. But then, I guess that's pretty hard to do, so maybe Bertha is one of the names that won't come back. Although I do still think it's more fitting now than it would have been 25 years ago. Q: Didn't it have the girth and birth association back when it was popular, before the WWI association? How did Bertha come into name usage in the first place? History/derivation?

Yes, Cash is definitely back, good point there. But I see Cash a rockstar name. I was thinking of the more ordinary housewife-type names. Maybe they're coming back too, I'm really not up with the trends besides what I know from the voyager. Clevland K.E., what's your field, exactly? In what course do you discuss name stereotypes?

LKB - I know a little 2 year old Linda!! They call her "Linny" exclusively though, which definitely fits in today.

kristen dawn - I agree with all your points. Well said!

Meg, thanks for clarifying. I was unsure of what Kristin Dawn was trying to say. Popular names are, of course (by definition!) popular.

I know that people do make judgments based on their perceptions of a name (a recent example is the study involving a Bob and Tim comparison - poor Bob is thought to a heavier, older man, etc.). My point is that many of the names being denigrated as "frumpy" and "grandparent-y" will likely sound just right to children being born today. Names are not static. As has been pointed out, we are approaching (maybe we're even there?) a time when Heather (in my day, the gold-standard cool-girl name, which is the only reason I chose it) brings to mind middle-aged women . . . it's now a "mom" name (again, no offense - I'm a proudly middle-aged mom). Perceptions change. Quickly.

Thanks, Irene's mom, for your insights! :) Our daughters are Paige, Peyton, and Emma. I'm not sure if that will give a view of our "taste"--we struggle with names! I had to laugh when you mentioned Treys often being the third in a series! My folks called my brother, Ron, Tres. But he goes by Ron now.
I will certainly try to give Andrew a chance to grow on me! It is a classic. I could call him "Anders" as a nickname. :)
Thanks so much! Juli

This discussion has really got me thinking about the popular bid to have a unique name and what the wider consequences of that might be. As Laura has pointed out, the top ten names are not nearly as ubiquitous as they once were . . . and coupled with the fact that the world is increasingly interconnected, I wonder what direction naming will take?
I hope that one consequence will be that kids won't bat an eye at unusual names . . . and judging a person by their name will become increasingly difficult.
I predict more micro trends, too!

Julianne, I love Andrew, it's classic with a couple very nice nicknames. The only Trey I've met was the third and I always assume that is what it means. BTW I knew a guy who was the fifth very waspy name but he went by Cinco (5 in Spanish).

Thank you, Catherine! It makes me feel more at ease to hear positive feedback on Andrew. Cinco--too funny! We could just call this little guy Cuatro... My daughters are continually renaming themselves. The latest identities are Violet, Crystal, and SuperSpy, the Puppy. It'll be different next week! Thanks again! Julianne

I think the hating on Bertha (although I know that's not the point here) will eventually die down. Six months ago I felt exactly the same way about Agatha, Esme, Esther and Margaret. Now they seem like great names. To me, Bertha is still truly horrible name, but we'll deal with it. Just so you know, this whole this with the name Heather being extraordinarily popular in the the American 80s has always had me stumped. In Australia it's definitely been a mum's name since I was a kid (I'm 27) and now a grandmother's name. The only people I know with the name Heather are my auntie and an ex boyfriend's mother.

I wonder if some of the shift to "older" names comes from more older parents. If I had a kid in my early 20s, I might have been more interested in the name's cuteness, popularity, and uniqueness; but like a lot of women in these decades, I had my kids in my 30s, when I wasn't so concerned about those qualities. The names that reflected my taste, my education and my interests in my 30s were just older and more serious-sounding than the names that would have reflected my thinking and taste a decade or more earlier.

More older mothers these days, means more "older" names in the sense of names that are more serious than cute, more historical than innovative. "Cute" fades as a major consideration for most of us, I guess.

The positive about a Bertha would be that she could go by Berty or Birdie and it would be cute......