The Baby Name Wizard

I still think Bertha is pretty bad, and since it's not the actual name of an actual child dear to anyone here, I feel o.k. saying so. I think Cleveland Kent Evans hit the nail on the head, but I also remember Laura doing a post on th sounds (or am I imagining it)?
I love many, many older names, but Edith, Agatha, and Bertha just sound unpleasant to my ear.
I know Meredith is making a big comeback, but it sounds more melodic for some reason.
I think the most important thing is that the parents of little Jayden or Bertha can honestly say, "We picked your name because we thought it was the most wonderful name in the whole, wide world."
Julianne-I love Andrew and Anders (I know a "just Anders").
I'm also a big fan of Drew, which has always seemed underused to me (I'm only lukewarm on Andy).
Have you tried nymbler yet? You might give it a whirl. There are also a lot of fun choices under the "Congratulations it's a...." thread.
Some of my current favs. : Jonas, Thomas, Charlie, Cyrus, Enzo, Dashiell, Samuel..

I am a psychology professor. I find some way to discuss names in most of my classes, but I give the name stereotype test I was talking about in my Introduction to Psychology classes.

The stereotypes can change rather quickly depending on what's going on in popular culture, by the way. Just a few years ago Simon had almost as strong a stereotype as Bertha. My students tended to think Simon wore glasses and was overly intellectual and nerdy. This went along with the cartoon character in "The Chipmunks", and fit with the similar stereotype of other similar sounding names like Sherman and Sheldon. But today I get just as many or more students whose first response to Simon is that a Simon is nasty and sarcastic. Simon Cowell has had a huge impact on the image this name has for young Americans. Of course one of the reasons individual celebritiess can have such an impact is that the name is actually rare in the American college student generation. A newly famous Matt wouldn't have such an impact on his name.

I heard from some polling organization that the only place that today's children have longterm contact with adults beyond their own family is if they are part of a small church - or I suppose synagogue or other worship community. If the majority of young people don't personally know anyone over 60, then many of the old names are blank slates. Seems like that would have a significant impact on how many decades it takes for names to cycle back into fashion.
The older mom phenomenon is a great observation, too. Big difference being named after grandma Kimberly who is 40 and grandma Mabel who is 85.

As for the question of why Bertha was popular in Victorian times: The Victorians were fascinated by chivalry and stories set in medieval times. The original famous woman named Bertha in history was Charlemagne's mother. That inspired authors in the 19th century to revive Bertha as a name for their characters, and that eventually spread to the population as a whole. Many of the fashionable names of the mid to late 19th century (Ida, Edith, Ethel, Emma, Gertrude, Maude, Blanche, Mildred, Marion; Walter, Arthur, Alfred, Ralph, Herbert, Raymond, Harvey, Edgar, Harold, Guy, etc.) were "medieval revival" names which reflected the Victorian fascination with stories about "when knighthood was in flower".

Great point, EthelBertha! I think that's definitely been the case for me. Reading put me in contact with lots of wonderful foreign, old-fashioned and even ancient names. Being a word person and, even more, a name lover, grew out of the excitement and wonder that these names ignited. Name histories and word etymologies fascinate me.

And it seems true, too, that older parents must have had more opportunity to develop mature, peer relationships with elderly people, to appreciate them as interesting and accomplished and relevant (the presumption that old = irrelevant is so cruel and short-sighted).

Maturity would also bring insight that the old were once young (!) and that their names were once attached to fresh-faced and vigorous children. So the question is, why *not* name look at this name pool for inspiration? It seems like a natural inclination to me. And Ethelberta, you're probably right that this trend was started by older mums.

In this day of day care, lessons, sports teams, etc, I can't quite believe kids are that isolated from adults outside of their own family. Maybe in the long term, but for first-impression-unusual-name issues, it's not the long term that matters.

The kids may be blank slates, but the problem doesn't stem from the kids at all. Imagine having every teacher you ever have sigh, roll their eyes, raise an eyebrow, stumble over your name for weeks, and just generally disdain you because they don't like your name. It's lucky if they don't mock your name outright. Schoolmates do pick up on that and treat you accordingly - you are WEIRD!!!

I am an older mom and I suspect that the older-name trend is a younger person thing. I had my first two, and their friends (named by women of my generation) are named Hayley, Kylie, Carissa, Autumn, Ethan, Nick, etc.

One more thing...

I think the real problem with some of these older names is that we speak a different language than they did a 100 years ago. Many had immigrated from Germany and Scandinavia, with heavy, guttural accents, and their names fit in with their languages. These names are not always going to sound as good as names created with more modern sensibilities in mind.

I read another study that claimed people prefer the sounds of names with vowel sounds pronounced forward in the mouth, like a, i, ee, and disliked vowel sounds in the back of the mouth, like oo and uh. Bertha, Agatha, Ethel, all these have that -uh sound. Whereas Meredith has an i sound instead.

These psychological impressions we have of names are immediate and largely uncontrollable. There may be successful people with unusual names (Condoleeza??) but how many more have fallen by the wayside, unable to get over the labels subconsciously placed on them by others?

Ok, I lied, one more thing - when did anyone say we didn't like SOME older names because we dislike old people? I have to say, that offends me.

And I almost can't quite believe this, but Eleni, are you implying that anyone who disagrees with you is clearly not mature, well-read and highly educated?

All this talk about Bertha... I kept think someone would recall that "Bertha' was the name of Mr. Rochester's first "mad" wife in Jane Eyre! Can't get over that name association myself!

I am 75 - my 30's childhood neighbourhood playmates were Betty, Mabel, Hazel, Josephine, Nancy, Frances, Ruth, Jacqueline, Jeanette, Helen; Harry, Gordon, Sammy, Billy (several), Herbie and Butch (nn for Morrow). All sound very dated to me, my own name included!

Isn't it common knowledge that the name Jennifer was considered weird when it appeared out of nowhere? Today's trendy name is tomorrow's Bertha.

Kristin Dawn, you write: "Imagine having every teacher you ever have sigh, roll their eyes, raise an eyebrow, stumble over your name for weeks, and just generally disdain you because they don't like your name. It's lucky if they don't mock your name outright. Schoolmates do pick up on that and treat you accordingly - you are WEIRD!!!"

I can't imagine a teacher having this response to an old-fashioned name. If anything, this argument could be applied to kr8tive spellings and newly minted "original" names (these are the names I see most disdained in my community). But it's clearly an inappropriate response to have to any name.

Even if you were right about people's perceptions (and I don't think you are) do we really want to limit ourselves to a small pool of cutesy anglo names to please our children's teachers? Let's all broaden our tastes a little.

kristin dawn - I honestly can't imagine teachers rolling their eyes at a name! I went to public school in a multi-cultural district, and there was no lack of new, unusual, and foreign names. Teachers might stumble, but I never saw a teacher pass judgment on a name. I think these days people are beginning to expect one thing in children's names - expect anything. Seriously, I would hope that any teacher that mocked a child outright (or inright) for a name would not hold their post very long!
But, that said, I guess I would count as a younger mom (maybe I'm just flattering myself) and I do like the older names!

As a psychologist I have to say that the use of research on the effects of names as reported in the regular media is usually overdone. It also suffers from the problem most social science research has: too many people focus just on whether a difference found is "statistically significant" and not on whether it is a large enough difference to be of PRACTICAL significance. It's rather easy to get people to make judgments on the basis of names in a psychology experiment when you have deliberately designed your data so that the name is the ONLY difference that people can make a judgment on. But real first impressions are formed by _averaging_ all the information you are getting about a person at once. If you meet someone in person, all the information you get about their appearance, clothing, smile, behavior, etc. generally overwhelms any effect of the name. Names only have a chance to have much of an effect in real social interaction when the name shows up AHEAD of the real person in a written form.

Kristin Dawn:

My issue is not that you need to agree with me! I just take issue with the very general way you make statements like:

"These psychological impressions we have of names are immediate and largely uncontrollable."

You were talking about sound preferences, then jump to "psychological impressions."
I think some of your statements about "names that sound nice" need to be qualified. They're too sweeping and generalized, and seem to boil down to
"don't choose weird names, or names that sound too old, or your kids will pay. People hate those names!"

I think the discussions should be a little more nuanced. Psychological impressions can change quickly, and they certainly change generationally.

P.S. On my use of "mature" . . . I only meant older. As in older mums.

ClevelandKentEvans: fascinating perception of Simon, my association is Simon LeBon from Duran Duran so I've always thought of this as a cool English guy name :)

And I hope we can all remember that we are in the minority obsessing over names. Parents may choose to name their child Bertha for a whole host of reasons, including perhaps a desire for parents named say Michael and Jennifer to give their child individuality. In reality most names grow on everyone over time. Of all my friends with children and of the babies I'm now meeting there are only a couple of names that didn't grow on me over time, some even becoming favorites.

I think about how my own perceptions have changed over the years. When I saw the Breakfast Club as a preteen I agreed with the statement that "Claire is a fat girl's name." Now I love the name. Who knows, I may name my next child Bertha... things do change! (OK exaggerating to make a point.)

ClevelandKentEvans - I'm curious. Is it difficult to overcome the impression made when the name is encountered first? Would a scholarship board interviewing qualified candidates not give Bambi Jones a fair chance, or would a personal interview override the connotations of the name? Generally speaking of course.

I don't know of ANY research specifically on "scholarship boards". What I do know is that it is actually fairly easy to get people to overcome their irrational prejudices when they themselves believe they are irrational, and when you make them _consciously_ aware that they MIGHT do something prejudiced if they don't watch out. Most people only act on kneejerk prejudices instead of their stated personal values when they aren't really paying close attention to what they are doing.

And it really would be irrational to deny someone a job or a scholarship because they had a name like Bambi, if their other qualifications were fine. If one thinks such names are a handicap--isn't the fact that these people DO have the qualifications proof that they know how to overcome that handicap and may actually be MORE qualified than some of those with "conventional" names?

Eleni, that was my school life for many years. And I don't have an extremely unusual name. Some kids had it a lot worse than I did, believe me. And kre8tive names didn't even exist then.

I'm not intending to make any sweeping generalizations, just sharing some interesting name-related information I have read about, in a limited amount of space.

I have stated my opinion repeatedly. If you like a name, use it. It's your child, after all. They're the ones who have to live with it.

Cleveland - I agree with you wholeheartedly! It's not just the name, it's the whole package. However, as it is a name-oriented website, the issue of names is kind of in the forefront. Thanks for your always insightful input.

I am a non-Latina Ana, which is pretty unusual. My parents always told me that they loved my name, and I have always felt like it is special. In many settings (usually the less diverse ones), I am the only Ana. I certainly hope nobody was calling me weird just because my name was a little unusual! I have never felt that way and can't imagine doing it to someone else. I think there is a big difference between a same so unusual that it really pops out and other names that are clearly names just not used that often. It is this second category that seems to be appealing to so many parents having kids in the 21rst century and to the rebirth of names from the late 19th and early 20th century.

Ana - I think you're right on. There's a big difference between the one and only names and the only one in the class names.

I taught school in a fairly diverse junior high for many years, and I can tell you teachers do roll their eyes at some names (we're not saints), but it tends to be names that sound like usual names but are spelled oddly, or names that are pronounced in ways that just don't seem to make sense-e.g. "It's not Fred; it's Reed-the F is silent."
I just made that up, btw.
Students, however, quickly distinguish themselves after the first day, and I've never known a youngster to suffer long-term prejudice because of this initial impression.
I've also never known a child to be teased solely because of his/her name, and yes, we once had a child named Tucker as class president.
Now, I do believe it is true that there is some negative correlation between creatively spelled names and the education of the mother, but there are obviously endless exceptions
(as a M-a-e-g-e-n) I'm one of them.

I have a question, and I'd love to hear your opinions. This goes to the timeless, well-known name vs. the more one-of-a-kind name: How recognizable do you want your child to be? Do you want people to be able to google your child's name and have only your child come up? Or would you rather give your child more anonymity to make mistakes and grow? I have an unusual name and an unusual last name, so people find me on Google. Usually, it's been great -- old friends can find me, and I'm very proud that a someone who doesn't know me well will see my accomplishments, stretching back to my high school days (I'm in my mid-twenties now). Yet, I've been careful for this reason, too, knowing that once something is up, it's up. At the same time, my husband has a very common last name (Knight). I feel torn between wanting to give my future kids more unique first names to help them stand out versus allowing them (or punishing them?) to blend in more.
Thoughts?

Cleveland Kent Evans, you are just full of useful information! I had a great-grandmother named Nina, pronounced NINE-ah, like you mentioned.

Also, I have a great-aunt named Icey. She's the only one I've met.

Several things came to me as I was reading these comments. As a second grade teacher, one of the things I do at the beginning of the year is ask my kids to interview their parents about how they chose their names. I love reading about why the parents picked the names they did. (There's a book called Chrysanthemum by Kevin Henkes in which a character is teased about her name, and that's the first book I read to my class each year.)

Anyway, the reasons parents choose their children's names are as diverse as the kids! It is easy to see how names come in waves of styles, though, over the years, when you have 24 new kids in your class each fall!

Last year, one of my parents said she named her daughter Margaret b/c it was her mother's name, and ever since she (the parent) was a little girl, she knew she wanted to name her daughter after her mother. Margaret could be considered part of the "old-fashioned-is-in" trend, but it was a name her mom had loved her whole life....

...hopefully I'm continuing my earlier post...

Anyway, this year, a mom said she named her daughter Teel (her maiden name) b/c she always knew she wanted to name her little girl her maiden name.

Both Margaret's mom and Teel's mom are part of trends, albeit different ones, but both of them stated that they always knew what they wanted to name their daughters.

BTW, Margaret's sister is the Mary Bass I mentioned in a much earlier post. Her brother's name is Pete.

Teel has a brother named Cole and sisters named Mary Caroline and Eliza! (Which gets into the whole sibling name style issue Laura wrote about in another blog.)

I can relate to those moms b/c my favorite name is Katharine, nn Kate, which is popular now, and I have always wanted to name a daughter that. (Anna Kate is my current favorite.) If I named a daughter Anna Kate, it would be "trendy" but I've had my whole life to think of it, so that's a 38 year trend!

Okay, a few more things:

My mom's name is Meredith, and I would love to name a daughter after her, but, again, it would sound "trendy" to people who follow popular (by popular, I mean Hollywood/U. S. celebs) culture b/c of so many TV characters named Meredith lately.

Right now, if I had twins, they would be Meredith and Anna Kate, and everyone would think I was right there in the "new" naming trends, but I would be naming the (imaginary!) babies for completely different reasons than trends (but I would be part of the trend...you see, it's so circular!!!)

Re: the name Cutter - I think it's highly unusual, too. And what's more unusual, is that his last name is the name of a country! Think Cutter Spain (although Spain is *not* the real last name of this child!)

I thought of some other one-hit names in my school/neighborhood:

Egan (boy)
Hayward (girl)

As for trends among 2nd/3rd grade-aged kids here, last year, my class was all antiquey names (Frances, Margaret, Sally), ...

...this year it's the unusual last-name-as-first name (Reagan, Teel, Hill.)

Interesting that where I live, the last-names-as-firsts have gone from Taylor, Ryan, Tyler, Carter, etc. to Forbes, Baxter, and Tinsley. (the latter 3 brothers, I promise!)

And as for creative spellings, my least favorite ever is my friend, Kelly, who has a daughter named Maygen. They wanted to name her "Megan" but pronounce it with a long a sound in the first syllable, so an aunt suggested that they spell the name Maygen so it would be pronounced correctly. ARGH!

Kristen Dawn, I just couldn't help but respond to your comments about teacher reactions. When I was growing up, my name was basically unheard of, and always mispronounced. I also happened to do very well in school and had teachers who at least told my parents (though they could have been lying) that what a pleasure it was to have me in their class and didn't seem to dislike me because my name was/is "weird" in suburban America. I also happened to be a cheerleader. There were times, sure, when I disliked my name. My mother had a very common 50s name - like Nancy - and she actually hated her name as a child. We've both come to like our names as adults. I certainly don't feel that my parents were torturing me or cruel.

When it comes to naming my children, my experience as someone with a weird name in a school full of Kims, Michelles, and Jills colors my perspective, I'm sure.

I have friends with babies named currently more-popular/emerging things like Addison or Caden. They adore their children, as do my friends who've picked "weird" names like Roarke, or those who've chosen "classic" names like Anna. I also want to emphasize what others have said - what's weird to some isn't weird to others, perhaps because of culture or nationality or any number of factors. Since I grew up with a name many perceived to be weird, having a weird name feels normal to me :)

Kelly, that's an interesting assignment to give to second graders... must be fun to read! Are Mary Mac and Mary Bass first and middle names? As in Mary Mac Lastname? Do these kids get addressed by the full Mary Mac and Mary Bass, or do they just go by Mary? Those seem like such odd combinations! Anyone ever heard the children's game "Miss Mary Mac?" I grew up in the 80s, and we played that one a lot... it's a hand/clapping sort of game. Also, it's odd that the make up of names in your classes would have changed so drastically in just one year from the Margaret-Frances-Sally crowd to the Teel-Baxter-Tinsdale crowd. Do you think it's just the random make up of your class in particular, or could trends have changed so drastically so quickly?

It *is* fun to read! Actually, it's a whole interview sheet on how they got their names, and in recent years, I've included links to baby naming websites so they can go online and find out what their names mean! The kids do the sheet with their parents for homework, and then they (the kids) read it aloud to the class on Friday.

Mary Bass is first and middle (last name is McSomething) and she goes by Mary Bass. When I first heard the name, I misheard it as Mary Bess and thought it was in the "antiquey" style! Nope - Mary Bass! (Mom's maiden name was Bass, I think.)

Mary Mac is the name the chld is called. Mac is short for a McSomething name, but I can't remember what it is. I thought this was a particularly unusual name b/c of the Miss Mary Mack rhyme. Her siblings are Bennett and Anne.

I, too, have been puzzled by the wild swing in names. Last year, the boys were mostly Biblical - apostles and gospel writers (Benjamin, Andrew, Simon, Thomas, Mark, Luke, John - seriously!- and all went by the formal name), one Will, and then Jackson, Austin, and Cameron. Basically, Biblical, timeless, and what I think should be called Modern Classic, b/c Jackson, Austin, and Cameron will be the classic boys' names someday, huh?

The girls were mostly antiquey/old-fashioned (Frances, Margaret, Sally, Lily, Emily, Victoria, Rachel, Audrey) with Braden, Xena, and Zoe thrown in for flavor. Truly an unsual cohort of names. I loved, loved, loved them!

This year, it's much more diverse, the trends can't be pinned down. Some of it is that I have a more diverse (ethnically and socio-economically) group of kids, and some of it may be the ages of the parents? I just don't know.

I have missed chatting about names! Used to be on babynames.com, but like ths blog so much more!

Liat: One small point--Knight is common, but not so common. According to www.howmanyofme.com, it is the 153rd most popular last name in the U.S. (There are still 181,703 people named Knight, though, which I suppose does sound like a lot.)

My kindergarten teacher refused to believe that Penny was my "real name," because "it's not a saint's name." (My hometown was very Catholic. My family wasn't.) That delightful encounter didn't sour me on my name at all.... it just soured me on that teacher! And it taught me from the start that teachers can be wrong sometimes. That's a good lesson to learn, eh?

This has been a fascinating thread! Kelly, thanks for sharing the names of your students. I'm desperate to know the names of my daughter's kindergarten classmates, but sadly, she isn't at all interested in names and can't remember the names of anyone in her class except Noah and PJ.

I think it's very difficult to sort out what influence our peer group has on our naming choices. By that, I mean how much what our friends are naming their children influences what we name our own children. Having children is such a strange experience, and having the first is mind blowing. Once the baby is born it begins to dawn on you that he or she is not an extension of yourself, but I think that is much less obvious before the birth. What I'm trying to say oh-so ineloquently, is that I do think that for many parents, judgment from peers does come into play in the naming process. I would never have named my child Sandeep for many reasons: 1) I'm not Indian; 2) The name doesn't come from my cultural background; ...

...3) My friends and family would definitely think I was nuts for picking a name so far outside the norm for my peer group. (Nothing against Indian names--I love them; I was trying to stay away from names that would get folks' dander up.)

I think that third category is hard to quantify, and even harder to admit to, but it is present for many people when they name their children. Why else would so many people run their name choices by readers of the Baby Name Wizard blog? Other people's opinions do matter to us.

Clearly some people name their children to honor deceased relatives and couldn't care less what their peers think of the names, but I think most of the rest of us do fall sway to the trends in our social set.

And Eleni, I loved that you mentioned micro trends! I've heard the author of the new book about them interviewed twice now and have got to go check it out...

Elizabeth T -- I think you're on to something there when you said (quite eloquently!): "once the baby is born it begins to dawn on you that he or she is not an extension of yourself, but I think that is much less obvious before the birth." That puts into words exactly what my issue is with the couple who named their daughter Not-Bertha-But-Something-Way-More-Horrible. It's like they named her as an accessory to their life or something. Does that make sense?

I facilitate a group of diverse teens and just had a group of teens/young adults, and I thought three of the names were so interesting: Faith, Charity and Eternity. Faith I don't think of as so unusual, but I'd never met a Charity or an Eternity before!

Lili - I went to high school with a girl named Charity. Her nickname was "Chaz." And there was a girl named Amity at my college as well, a name I had never heard before.

Nina - I was having to be so careful - for some reason I kept thinking Charity was Chastity -- I have no idea why. Luckily I didn't mess up, but isn't it interesting how we make subconscious connections between names that don't necessarily exist?

Oh Lili--Chastity does certainly exist as a name! A weird one to bestow on a kid these days, I think. Very loaded. And Chassity seems to be a misspelling or mispronunciation of Chastity. Sonny and Cher's daughter is named Chastity.

Sorry I wasn't clear :) I know Chastity is a name. I meant there is no real connection between Chastity and Charity, except the one in my head! Does anyone do this with other names too?

My name is Sarah and I have always hated it. My parents chose the name from our family tree, and named me after someone from the 1700s. They didn't know it was a popular name (I was born in 1976), but there were always at least 5 or 6 other Sarah's in my class. Even now, there is another Sarah in my small department at work and we have the same last initial! It's so confusing! I will be giving my children names that are not in the top 50 or even 100 names. Both my brother and my husband have names that are much less common and love them. I was always jealous of my brother growing up because there was never another kid in our school with his name.

Will we ever find out the real name of "Bertha but worse"? I'm on tenterhooks!

Nina - I've been trying to think of what the not-Bertha name could be. I know you can't say, but in my head I've decided it must be Hortense. If that's the case, I have to say I think I feel you!
sdh - Your story is funny to me, because I had a cousin with a very unusual name that she disliked as a child. Whenever she thought she could get away with it she introduced herself as Sarah. Maybe that's the name equivalent of the curly hair syndrome (girls with it often hate it, and girls without it often long for it).

Eternity is an interesting one! Never heard that as a name, but I can easily imagine the sister of a Destiny being named Eternity. Faith is pretty commonplace, but taken together, Faith, Charity and Eternity is a striking mix. On the whole Charity-Chastity thing, there are some names that I tend to connect in my head for whatever reasons. Sally and Polly is one set. Dale and Darrell (I have no idea why). Gwen, Dawn, and Fern, I mix up all the time, and I definitely do it with Charity and Chastity. Oh, and Marvin and Melvin.

Oh, Irene's Mom, Hortense is such a great guess! That would definitely make me cringe. Other contenders: Brunhilde, Hilda (although that's really not so bad), Winifred (also not so bad!), Gertie?

Gertrude's not "Bertha bad", I don't think. There's always Gertie and Trudy as nn's, they're quite spunky. My guess is Eunice.

Eunice is another good guess! I feel like it's got to be something without forgiving nn possibilities. And I've never heard Brunhilde, so I'm not sure how it's pronounced.
Hagar? Although that's more bad Bible name than bad old name...

I think Nina's secret mystery name is Schwanhilde. Or maybe Ermintrude.

Astrid - I love your name too. My favorite character from my favorite book is named Astrid. I had way more trouble with misspellings and mispronunciations than teachers actually disliking the name. The teachers and other school employees just resented the trouble it caused them and were very impatient. It went away in time, as I was a good student and well behaved, but it just happened so often it drove me nuts!

Kelly, I love all the names you mentioned - ok, maybe not Maygan so much! I adore Anna Kate and Meredith. They're unique for twins, but still go perfectly together. Nice!

Liat - Don't let my bad experiences put you off an unusual name - I think we are in a whole new naming world now and I suspect a lot of my teachers were born in the Bertha generation!