The Baby Name Wizard

Rosebud seems to remind me of my great-great aunt, Rosalind. I guess those Rose variations. You could also use Rosie as a nickname, which I love.

Re: Orson

I am LDS, and I didn't make the connection to Orson Pratt. I don't think it's too strong an association, although it might be enough to make me wonder. There are other names like that, too, but no commonly used name that would make me assume a family was LDS.

And it's been brought up before, so I have to comment that in my experience of living in 4 states and having family and relatives all over the US, Canada, and a few elsewhere, I have seen no difference in LDS naming trends and those in general. The only exception is a few names that seem more common for LDS, but are generally used as well (Joseph, Benjamin, Jacob, Spencer). Occasionally I'll meet someone with a very unusual name, but no more than in the general population!

Well, not counting Orson Scott Card, I know four Orsons my age or younger, and one much older man who actually goes by Orson instead of his mn. They are all LDS and I'd been told specifically it was an LDS name. I don't live in Utah, so maybe it's a local thing.

I absolutely bow to the expert on this one! Thanks, MJ.

Eleni, I think Rosebud would be a great name for your sled.

I Know a mom of a girl Ryann and I think she too feel she need to excuse her choice, the other reason is she is due to have another baby in a few monthes which is tricky naming. if it is a girl it is not fair to give her a really frilly 1st name and if it is a boy it has to have a more masculine ring to it then Ryan.

I think statistics from Utah show that Joseph is LESS common there than in most other states, so I don't think it's a particularly LDS-identified name. Names which are more common in Utah and which seem to have LDS connections would included Spencer, Dallin, Hyrum, Alma, and McKay for boys and McCall, McKell, McKaylle, and Sariah for girls.

Wow. I hadn't thought of Murgatroyd for the not-Bertha name. Makes Hester look like a brilliant choice!

Murgie. Poor kid.

Eleni, I assume you're joking with Rosebud as Citizen Kane reference? To answer the question anyway, if anyone's really considering it: to me, Rosebud sounds like it's trying really hard to be "cooler" than Rose. There are plenty of variations, no matter what your style -- Rosalind, Rosalie, Rosie, Roseanne/a, Rosa, Rosario, Rosemary -- but Rosebud doesn't sound like a variation to me, it just sounds like a part of a flower (well, ok, stage of growth of a flower). As in Daisypetal. I agree, great name for a horse! Quite a statement it would make: these are my sons, Orson and Kane, and this is my daughter, Rosebud!

KristinDawn, I have heard of Merritt as a girl's name. There was a Merritt growing up, and a friend had twin girls and named them Gleith (Gleath? not sure of the spelling) and Merritt. I was used to Merritt being a surname-y style name, but had not heard Gleith.

I think it's part of the trend where I live to give a more unusual surname for a first name, instead of the overused (at least in our area) Taylor, Hunter, Ryan, etc.

Their brother's name is Joe. I think one of the oddest things is when naming styles don't "go together", which Laura addressed on another blog.

Merritt, Gleith, and Joe. Yep.

Jessica, I never read the Christy series. I do remember watching some of the TV show, with Kellie Martin, right?

What's the connection you had to that book?

ClevelandKentEvans, is Alma a boy's name in Utah? If so, why do you think this is? I had always thought it was a girls' name, but I only know one girl with it (about age 10) and as the protagonist in Nicola Krauss' _The History of Love_.

It's easy to answer why Alma is a boys' name in Utah; Alma is the name of two prominent male characters in the Book of Mormon.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/book_of_mormon/people/alma_1.html

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/book_of_mormon/people/alma_2.html

Outside of LDS culture, Alma is of course almost exclusively a female name.

Cleveland Kent Evans, thanks the the interesting info!

I interviewed a guy yesterday who said his old college roommate from Stanford named his kid Quantum nn Quan. A physics major probably! I wonder they are Asian? (nn sounds like an Asian name).

Alma is a man in the Book of Mormon.

There were girls at my school called Ryan, Troy, and Sean. This was back in the 70's when unusual names were way less in vogue.

Sean definitely had it the worst - she was a new girl and on the first day of school the teacher announced, "Oh, I thought you were a boy!" The class went berserk. She only stayed at our school for like three weeks and then disappeared.

kristin dawn, it's interesting that you knew so many Orsons. I can't recall ever knowing any! Isn't it odd how that happens--my husband never knew any Nicoles growing up, and I knew several.

I have met an Alma, as well as Ammon, Hyrum, and Liahona--all very unusual but definitely LDS!

Rosebud makes me think of a little girl I know named Buddy. Not good to my ears.
All the guys I've run John by have been very enthusiastic - they say great name, they love it, but the gals have given sort of lukewarm, hmmm it's nice, kind of responses. I wonder why?
MJ - why do LDS boys spell it Hyrum? I've known two Baptist Hirams. Is it the same name spelled differently, or two different names? Just curious!

Ana, C & C Mom, LKB: I was just making another Citizen Kane reference as a silly joke - I should have added a smile or something to make it clearer, sorry! I would not actually use Rosebud as name for a child, either.

And while we're on the subject of names that shouldn't be given, I'll mention something I saw last night. One of America's Next Top Model contestants was named . . . "Spontaniouse."

That's what I get for watching bad television!

Old Orson was my boss in high school when Orson/Ryan came to work at the same place. Old Orson refused to call him Ryan, only Orson, which Orson/Ryan was not too happy about. Then one of my coworkers told me her little brother's name was Orson/David, and explained the background of the name. I was already way into names even then and it fascinated me.

Orson/Joseph I met when I was out of school already...he went by OJ, but something tells me he probably doesn't any more.

Orson/David 2 is the baby of a friend who was not raised LDS but converted, divorced her original husband, remarried LDS, and started a new family. She has a convert's zeal and I think she picked the name partly to prove her commitment. She calls him Davy.

So really, as Old Orson has to be 70 by now, and baby Orson was just born a year ago, we're talking about a 70 year gap to produce 5 Orsons. It is weird though, now that I know it's not that common. I must attract Orsons??

mj-- Your list of typical LDS names made me smile. My best friend is LDS and two of her sons are named Joseph Benjamin and Spencer Paul. :) Her husband wanted to use Moroni as a middle name for Joseph but she thought that that was a little too much.

I'm a fan of Rosebud, probably because my first doll(who I still have) is named that. However, as a child's name it's not up the top for me - maybe middle?
Nina - from wayyyyyyyyy up the thread - sorry I didn't get back to you. By 'cheap and dumb' in reference to kr8tiv spellings of names, unfortunately children with them do send a strong message that their parents couldn't spell therefore uneducated eg cheap and ignorant eg dumb. As a teacher I came across a wide range of names but I can honestly say they didn't influence me to the like or dislike of a child. Having said that, a child with a kr8tiv name was much more likely to be in the lower achieving half of the class with very few exceptions that I can remember. Also at my children's university graduations last year I noted almost no kr8tivly spelled names amongst the graduates, yet being in my children's primary(aged 5 - 10) school classes as a teacher aide, I know there were plenty of weird and wonderful names at the time.

HONOR. I love this name. I wanted to name my 2nd daughter Honor. My husband thought I was nuts: "Honor???!!! As in "Get *On Her*"? That would be great for her in high school." I was so sad to take it off my list. And for a lame, television reference: Honor was the name of Logan's sister on the show Gilmore Girls.

To continue my pathetic pop culture/ television references - I watched the new show "Gossip Girl" with my 14-year-old niece (yeah, sure, that's why I watched it), and one of the main characters is named RUFUS. He is a rich, snotty, slimy pig, so that might not help the name too much.

The not-Bertha name is no joke, I am certain of it. Her parents are not relatives or friends, just people in the same city/playgrounds.

Louise - I think "busty" is a terrible nn for Buster! Imagine when that kid gets a little older and realizes what mom is calling him!

AF - it's sad that the mom seemed embarrassed about her name choice. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear girl named Ryan/Ryann. It seems like she'd dress her more girly if she planned on using that name, to avoid the obvious mistakes that others would make.

Re Rosebud: It's a well-known piece of Citizen Kane lore that Orson Welles chose that name for the sled because it was William Randolph Hearst's real-life nickname for his wife's, er, lady parts. So take that association into account if you're seriously considering Rosebud (though I think it was a joke.)

I do like Orson for a boy, though, and I think the positive associations with Welles outweigh the negative ones, for those who would associate it with him at all.

An acquaintance of mine has just named his child and included the name Rulon as a middle name, on the recommendation of a man he much admires. I was dumbfounded, having never come across the name, only to discover that it is apparently an LDS name (the man hails from Utah). So, I guess it's a name. Can't say I like it. It sounds too sci-fi for me (eg from the planet Rulon). Has anyone come across the name?

Nina-My husband would have said exactly the same thing about Honor.
I'm glad I'm not the only one up on "bad," TV, btw!
As an Orson alternative, I thought I'd mention Orion. I've met two recently, and I wasn't crazy about it at first, but it's sort of growing on me. Or I had an uncle named Orlin-don't suppose that one is ready for a comeback yet.
I do like Orson, though.
I also like John. It's the kind of handsome, solid choice that appeals to me.
Also, my husband is a Jon, although he's "really," a Jonathan (another handsome option). Interestingly, he once told me he would have liked to have been called Jonathan but no one ever did.
I've known girls named Ryan and Shaun. When I was teaching, I always noted "boy," or "girl," on the seating charts I left for substitutes.
Maybe it's because my own name was always misspelled and mispronounced, but I always take care to learn names correctly, and I can't understand people who can't put a little effort into doing the same.
I'm dying for more of the ohw's!

I obviously have not life since I first associate Rosebud with the cheat in the original Sims--though it has been a while since I've played it.

Regarding Ryan, for some reason Rian strikes me as a very reasonable girl's name and I have no idea why. I think there was some character, an elf I think, in a book somewhere with that name. I just can't remember what book. It'll probably come to me eventually.

Anyhow, not to stir the pot anymore after Orson (okay, maybe a little bit), what do you guys think of Calvin?

That should be, "I obviously have no life..."

Tansey - Though I can't speak for Nina per se, I don't think that she was talking about kre8tive spellings per se, the ones that are truly strange and hang around a child's neck like a millstone. Maybe we all are using the term kre8tive rather loosely.
Names like Jayden, Madison, etc. sound nice to many, many people. That is why they are popular. Some of the older names that have been mentioned on this board are, to my ear, appalling. Some are beautiful. If it sounds good and is a reasonable name, then the fact that it was created last year or in 1995 or in 1066, is irrelevant. They are all valid names.

Nina - Your husband sounds like mine - when I suggested the name Pandora, he said no, guys are always going to be trying to get into her box...

Though I've been burned on LDS generalizations already today, Rulon is definitely an LDS name. Rulon Gardiner was an Olympic gold medalist wrestler who if I am remembering right, is from Utah, and Rulon Jeffs is/was the head of one of the polygamist groups - his son Warren is currently in the news. Note - the Jeffs are NOT in any way affiliated with the legitimate LDS.

J&H's mom - I seriously think the teacher teased Sean about her name deliberately. He told our parents at open house that he considered it his job to toughen us up for junior high school and had an entire set of nasty nicknames he used. I still cringe when I hear the word 'piston'.

A boy in my class ended up being called Rollo (as in, you can roll a Rollo to your pal) until the day we graduated.

Ok, Rulon Gardener is from Wyoming, but he went to Ricks College and is LDS.

Way back on this blog someone asked if anyone regreted their choice of names for their children. My firstborn is Mark - spelled with a K. My father and grandfather were both Marcus though my father was always called by his middle name. I wished much later (after taking on the role of family historian) that I had named him Marcus (shown as 185th in year of his birth) or even Marc with a C (ranked at 110) but we went with Mark - sixth most popular name that year! Just shows how easy it is to be influenced by the trends!

Second born was named Gregory, coming in at 23rd on the chart. My husband preferred this to Graham (#734) which was my wish but I deferred.

We wanted names that would not get nicknames. So what happened when they got to school? The teacher called them Markie and Greggie!!! I quickly put a stop to that!
I still like their names by the way!

Oh, the funny thing was learning at some point that Mark knew his name was Mark, but he *thought* that when he grew up, his name would be John!

On John -- If you take a look at the voyager, it seems that there are a good number of baby Johns out there, and a whole lot of Jonathans, too. I'd bet a good proportion of Jonathans go by Jon most of the time. Still, it's a solid name. A little bland for my tastes, but it sounds nice and will never go out of style. I know many Jonathans who go by Jon (in their mid 20s), and while I like the name Jonathan a lot as a full name, I don't like Jon as much as John, in terms of spelling. John feel much more solid, whereas Jon doesn't feel "complete" because I'm waiting for the "athan" to come along.

Kelly: there are characters in the story named Hill, O'teel - who named his daughter Teeley (I think that's right), numerous Mary variations, and I want to say ther ewas a Cutter. I could be wrong about that part but it still would have fit *very well*. ( Ithink I should look up the book and read it again. Now I am getting scared that I have facts mixed up. This much I *know*, those names made me think of the book. I never saw the movie.)

Orson gets heavier every time I read it or think about it. Has nothing to do with association. Just the feel of it rolling off my tongue. Although it does remind me of Orkin - the pest control company.

Murgie lookd muggy. And sounds muddy. and feels muddled. ::O poor child:: Bless her heart I hope she has **Personality!!**

Another late night feeding contemplation: Most nn we feel comfortable seem softer sounding. ie Rose/Rosy, George/Georgie, William/Wills Why/how then did Sadie become a nn for Sarah. That is going from soft to hard. Seems so harsh to my ears.

... I know a Sadie (age 23 -ish) and numerous Sara/h's. None of them go by Sadie or any other nn. O and I met a lady who was scheduled to have a baby within a week who was naming her girl Sadie.

Jessica -- I see what you mean about nns. being softer than the original names. Sadie sounds a bit less soft than Sarah, but I still think it's a pretty soft name. It has the "ee" ending, which is a common nn. characteristic, making it seem (perhaps) less formal than Sarah. Could it be one of those nns. that came about b/c the name itself was so popular that it was hard to distinguish between Sarahs (like a mini-version of the Elizabeth nn. phenomenon)? It follows the path of Katherine to Katie, in that it elongates the vowel & essentially inserts a consonant sound that's not present in the name, even though the letter is visually present. Could there be some correlation between R and D in old English or some other language that Sarah may be taking a cue from? I'm not up on my linguistics... Anyway, as far as moving from soft to hard, how about Richard-Dick, Henry-Hank? All standard nns. that work the other way around, sort of like Sadie. There are so many nns. that are illogical to me, but I love Sadie.

Kristin Dawn, thanks for the info on Rulon. I'm still getting used to the fact that it's actually a name! My friend is British, which may be the reason he decided to use it as a middle name. It's a bit 'out there' for Britain, and his other child's name is Zachariah.Funnily enough I can't remember his new son's other names (he has two middle names), because I was so appalled by Rulon.
One reference I found to Rulon on the web described it as an Native American name , meaning 'spirited'. Not sure if that's accurate, but it certainly would help!

NeedHelp:

The LDS spelling of Hyrum comes from a very important figure in the early days of church history, Hyrum Smith. I would assume it's the same name as Hiram, but I don't know when/ why the different spellings arose.

Joy: I like Nora, not so into Sadie for the same reasons that people have stated above, I've seen it on a so called 'bad girl names' list too (probably because of the 'sexy sadie' song) along side Delilah, Trixie, Lola. I must say though I'm surprised to learn that it's a nn for Sarah.

Nina: hehe! word names sort of scare me too! Still laughing at little Patience screaming her head off and you're husbands remark about Honor :-) It's good to have someone who points out some of the harsher realities of a name though. Last night I mentioned Clementine to my other half and he burst out laughing and said 'why don't they go the whole hog and call her Satsuma!'

On the subject of Honor/Honora, I've noticed it popping up on the Telegraph announcements in the last few months so it's probably set for a bit of an increase...

What do you guys think of Tryphena?!

Apologies for double post but I noticed people had been talking about the different variations on Rose and I just have to ask what people think of Roseline? (which I rediscovered the other day flicking through Romeo and Juliet)...

This is a hypothetical dilemma - but one day If I have a daughter I'd love her middle name to be after my mum (Rosemarie). However, I'm sure my other half wouldn't want to leave his mum out (Pauline - which I'm not remotely into) I guess Roseline just stuck me as a natural happy medium, any thoughts?

Katharine,

I like Rosaline---not Roseline...it looks too much like 2 seperate words mooshed together. Rose Line...

Referring back to your comments, marjorie, I also like your son being named "Mark" as an oblique tribute to your lovely name. Did that ever occur to you-- the faint echo set up between those two names? I like things like that.

I had a (male) professor whose first name was Bliss. It was surprising and feminine-sounding for about five minutes; from then on it seemed perfectly normal and masculine.

I'm very late commenting but I'm going to anyway.

I love the name Lois! I'm glad that someone is using it. I know a very sweet girl in college who has Lois for part of her first name. And middle names are the perfect place for names like Barbara that are to honor someone but not be used much.

John is a very nice name that was #20 on the SSA list last year. Plenty of people are still using it.

For what little it's worth, I also like Vance, and all the Honor variations. I've only heard of Merritt as a male name. It fits in with the WASPy Puritan traditions.

Rosaline seems to flow a little better than Roseline but either version is very nice. It sounds like a great way to pay tribute to both moms.

i'm overwhelmed by all the comments. so here's some comments on what i remember after taking a few days to read all that:

re: Honor/Honora: sounds a little weird to me but if i met someone with the name, i'm sure i'd get used to it quickly.

re: roseline: i like the idea of honoring both grandmothers--you're lucky you can do it relatively easily! i do like the suggestioin of rosaline that someone else mentioned. the spelling of roseline bugs me. before you gave us the story, i thought, why not just use rosalind. hrm... maybe it depends how you are planning on pronouncing?

re: Orson: I like. Orson is also a bear in a little comic called Lions, Tigers, and Bears. And my associations with Welles are just that he was a director of a classic, not all the bad stuff. (Although I guess I have those associations now...) Also love Orion. I was considering using this. Who knows?

re: Ryan: I like it as a girls' name; much fresher than as a boys'. I can see that an alternate spelling might be nice though: Ryann, Ryanne, etc. Hrm... are alternate spellings more acceptable if they are used to make a name more feminine? Please do not answer this if it means getting into the whole "girls stealing boys' names" issue again.

re: Tryphena: Really don't like it. Sounds too out there, trying too hard. I'd need a story to appreciate it. Which is fine, I guess.

valerie -- i used to have neighbors whose last name was Rulon. they were very east coast WASPy, from the DC area and definitely not LDS.

RobynT: I can see changing the spelling of a typically male name if you're using it for a girl. A big advantage is people reading it might be clued in it's for a girl rather than a boy--I'm specifically thinking of teachers. On the other hand, after meeting her, I think most people would be fine with it anyhow.

Other than very obvious associates, I think people obsess a little too much about whether or not a name they like will lead to teasing or confusion.

thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback re. Roseline...

Re Tryphena - I saw it the other day and thought it was pretty random and figured I put it out there!

In the Orson Scott Card vein, Lois (McMaster Bujold) is also a good sci-fi writer name.