The Baby Name Wizard

Re Chaya:

I forgot to say that since the initial sounds in Chaya and Chana and Chaim and Tzvi and Tzipporah do not exist in English, I think there would be too much pronunciation difficulty for those names to go mainstream. I have been accustomed to those sounds since infancy, but monolingual Anglophones might find them a stumbling block.

I know that non-Jews sometimes use the name Zipporah, but how do they pronounce it? Like 'zipper'? (Ugh!)

bad*ss

My sister is a lawyer in Seattle, and she says she knows only a few women who hypenate but many who kept their maiden names-including every mother from their baby group save one and about half of her acquaintances in general.

She does say that most of her friends who got married right after college changed their names, so perhaps it's more a function of age and convenience than other demographics.

Laura-I don't know if you had seen this on the last thread so I thought I'd repost it here. It is set up very much like your Namipedia but it has no mapping feature.
http://www.babynamefacts.com/index.php

Re: the women changing her last name or not, I know that it was a bit of a big deal a while back (80's or 90's I forget) but it doesn't seem so in my circles anymore. I am among those who A)doesn't care which my daughter chooses and B) would probably be surprised if she didn't change her LN and C)would like to be concious of her name flowing now rather than worrying about what if's.

The map is the same as at http://nametrends.net, though the timelines are nice.

@J&H's mom - You're right about it being partly a function of age/convenient timing. All of the many professional women I know who changed their names are in their mid to late 30's now, are still on their first marriages, and were married between the ages of 25 and 29, roughly corresponding to the time when they graduated from medical/law/dental school.

But I think there's a demographic bit to it, too. My friends who never went to college all changed their names when they got married, and my uber-educated feminist friends all kept their names - and many of those women are currently long term cohabitating, having eschewed the whole patriarchal, hetero-normative institution entirely.

Despite my associations, I'm not a professional anything, but I changed my name upon marriage at age 30 because my DH's last name fit me so much better. I wanted us and our future children to all have the same last name. Though I also can't abide hyphenated names, unless you're truly some posh Brit who was born with a double-barreled name.

I'm planning to change my last name when I get married, partially because it's always what I've assumed I would do (my mom changed her last name, and almost all of my friend's mothers growing up had changed their names), and also because my SO's last name is easier to pronounce than mine, and also the same origin/ethnicity as my current surname, so it won't sound funny at all (though I'd probably still want to change it even if he did have a long complicated last name), and I want to have the same surname as my future children.

...although then I'll be Nicole S., just like the poster above me! Don't worry, I won't change my online pseudonym. ^_^

"I want to have the same surname as my future children."

Just a heads up if you happen to be (like me) a bit of a wiseass mom--it's kinda nice *not* to have the same surname as your kid when you're shooting your mouth off at PTA meetings and whatnot; there's half a chance it won't be connected to your kid by some in the audience! Anyway, I think my daughter appreciates the distinction... ;)

Miriam, that's exactly why I am surprised that Chaya is apparently so popular. It's one of my favorites, but I would never give it to a child unless I lived in a community where most of the residents were familiar with Hebrew. Most words beginning with the 'ch' are transliterated with just the H, but Haya sounds exactly like the greeting Hiya. And the Ch spelling would be pronounced like in chair, which I don't like nearly as much. Shoshana may be Hebrew but it's easily prounounceable in English, and the 'tz' in Tzipporah is at least easier to learn even if it's unfamiliar. The 'ch' sound is difficult for for most non-native speakers to make even once they've heard it said correctly. I wonder how all of those Chayas out there say their name?

Nicole R., I like Alice, Margaret, and Laurel. Although it has 3 syllables, the first name that came to mind from your description was Josephine, a current favorite of mine. I would also suggest Jane. Good luck!

Oh, and I like Clemence very much.

sarah smile--

They all live in Borough Park where everyone knows how to say Chaya and Chaim. There is a large Orthodox community, or rather several large Orthodox communities (Modern Orthodox, Chasidic, other types of Ultra Orthodox) in NYC. By and large they speak Yiddish as well as Hebrew and English. They do not assimilate, they do not send their children to public schools, they do not socialize with conservative and reform Jews (never mind non-Jews), they shop only at stores which conform to Jewish law, and so they do not have to worry about people who can't say Chaya and Tzviya (my grandmother's names as it happens).

Because there are so many Orthodox Jews bunched together in NYC and because they use such a limited pool of given names, there are a whole lot of little Chayalehs and Soralehs and Miriles, and those names then show up high on the list of white given names. I think you would look a long time before you found parents who are not very Orthodox Jews putting Chaya on their daughter's birth certificate.

I have only one child, a son, but if I had had two daughters, the younger would have been Tzivya Chaya, but the birth certificate would have read something else, possibly Zoe or Vivian or Eve for the Chaya, and for the Tzivya possibly Celia (which my grandmother used) or Cecilia (which my other grandmother used for Tzippa) or Fawn or Doe or maybe a bird name (Robin or Lark) for my other grandmother. But because I am thoroughly assimilated, I would not use Chaya, Tzivya or Tzippa as the civil name.

Just popping in to ask what everyone thinks of Beyonce's name change to "SASHA FIERCE."

She says it reflects her fiercer, more glamorous persona.

I thought the regular Beyonce Knowles was glamorous enough!

(I'll be back later to comment on the thread topic).

Clemence is nice, with literary overtones-- there's Clemence Dane, the novelist.

I've always rather liked that other form of the name-- "Clemency", which of course marks it more clearly as a "virtue" name, I suppose. Given that the quality of mercy is not strained, it's especially welcome, ha.

I even like "Mercy" itself-- very early Puritan.

The three-syllable rhythm of Clemency appeals to me in the same way that "Romilly", "Charity", "Verity", etc. do.

Not terribly fond of newly-minted hyphenated names for non-Brits either. It was fun taking the last name of my husband, since it allowed me to use my maiden name as a middle name. I get to use it a lot, and now both my son and I share at least one middle name in common.

The only problem was that during the more frenzied hyphenated name craze of the Nineties, banks and things constantly wanted to address letters to me as Jane Doe-Hancock, instead of Jane Doe Hancock. It took quite a while to straighten them out...

Easternbetty, you are kidding-- has Beyonce really changed her name? Can she be serious?

On the name changing topic-- I hope no one thought I was suggesting that we shouldnt consider flow when naming our daughters. For the record, my mother kept her maiden name, and I plan on going double-barreled (hyphenating for life, keeping my maiden for business). I was just making the comment that all the labor in crafting a name could be for naught if the daughter eventually changes the last name. That said, I hope I'd raise a daughter who would think outside the box enough not to change her last name if she'd become a Rose Rhodes or its equivalent :)

I would have expected most of the women in my social circle marrying now (mid-late 20s, business school/law school/med school/doctoral program grads and attendees, living or recently lived in NYC) to not change their names on marrying. But I'm one of only 3 women in my crowd who didn't. The other 8 or so who've married in the last three years changed to their husbands'.

I chose not to change for a number of reasons, primary among them...I like my name! And, to be frank, I don't much like my husband's, which has a familiar euphemism for male genitalia embedded in it. I do also have fairly strong feminist views (in some areas) that make me dislike the frequently unexamined inequality of our naming customs. Finally, my husband and I are of different ethnic and religious backgrounds, but neither of us converted (or wanted the other to do so). The idea of having a name that signalled a religious/ethnic identity I don't share seemed wrong to me.

I think this will lead to some conflict when we have children--I'd like all my kids to have my ln as a second middle, so my last name appears on things like their official school records and will ideally make red tape a little easier. My husband really dislikes the idea of them having two middle names (he wasn't so thrilled that I didn't change my name to begin with). We'll see what happens (one day)!

Eo, I don't think this is an official name change for Beyonce. I think it's more of a J. Lo-style moniker for her stage identity (Christina Aguilera's X-tina phase it probably a more accurate comparison).

Coll I had two middle names, my mothers maiden name being the second. I like having both names but must admit it gets a little tiresome filling in customs forms as my name hardly ever fits. My Brother pretty much just leaves out that part of his name now we're older.

"I think you would look a long time before you found parents who are not very Orthodox Jews putting Chaya on their daughter's birth certificate."

I don't know--it's a name with some cross-over potential if you Anglicize the pronunciation to the way it looks. It rhymes with Maya/Gaia/Jaya, and it sounds a little like chai (there are worse foods to be named for than a sweet spicy tea). Nice meaning, too.

Oh, meanwhile, new baby note--newborn at church last week was Mila (pr. mee-la).

"I don't know--it's a name with some cross-over potential if you Anglicize the pronunciation to the way it looks. It rhymes with Maya/Gaia/Jaya, and it sounds a little like chai (there are worse foods to be named for than a sweet spicy tea). Nice meaning, too."

If you Anglicize the pronunciation of Chaya, you get Haya (cf. Chanukah/Hanukah, Chana/Hannah), nothing to do with spicy tea. I don't see Haya having oodles of appeal. As someone pointed out, Haya would sound like Hi ya, which would lead to a lifetime of stupid remarks.

But Miriam people could easily say Ch instead of H if they don't know the original name. My son was at nursery with a girl called Chana who was definitely not Jewish and pronounced it Ch-anna,not as I would pronounce it. They see it, think it's pretty and pronounce it as they think fit - it's not everyone who bothers to find out a name's history and origin (sigh...if only everyone was as thorough as we are!)

Re women changing their names - most of my 40something friends didn't change their names. Most of my 30 something ones did change their names. I didn't and it's never bothered me, although I don't really mind if people use my 'married' name.

Keren--

If someone names a daughter Chaya or Chana and pronounces it with the ch- in chip, then those are made up names or perhaps from some other language unknown to me. Some creative mom could take -aya and stick any other sound she fancied (including ch as in chip)in front of it as has happened with all the -ayden names. Or perhaps someone could come up with Chana (pronounced either Chahna or Chaina) as a variant on China. But there is no way a Hebrew name can be Anglicized with the ch- in chip. There is a difference between Anglicizing something and making a mistake due to ignorance.

When I read Frank Herbert's Dune, I wondered about the pronunciation of the Fremen name Chani. It could be pronounced with the ch in Chaya or the ch in chip or the ch in Chopin or the ch in character, and what about the vowel? In my mind when I read the book I pronounced it like Chana, except with a final -ee. However, in the tv mini-series it was pronounced like chain-ee (actually like Dick Cheney). It was obviously a made up name, so presumably it was pronounced however Herbert wanted it to be pronounced.

I suspect Miriam is right that most Chayas come from ultra-Orthodox families - the ones I know certainly do. I guess I just didn't realize that there was a large enough Orthodox population even in NY to raise a name that high in the rankings. And why Chaya, which lovely as it is wouldn't have been my first thought for a name so popular among that community as to impact the state stats?

And while I agree that Chai-a isn't the typical pronounciation, I'm not sure that makes it a made up name. Mispronounced, possibly, but not made up. And really, who decides what are acceptable Anglicized pronounciations anyway? We certainly don't agree on the spelling, after all (see Chanukah/Hanukah/Chanukkah/Chanukka).

Again with the US-only data! There's a whole world out there that you're missing out on. Check out this interactive map of popular baby names from around the world.

I knew a Chaya when I was young--Jewish but not Orthodox, and she was surrounded by non Jews. I always thought her name was very pretty, and I don't think it's hard at all to say the ch- sound correctly. I suppose some people may have pronounced it as "Hiya", but I never heard any of the other kids making dumb remarks about it. I've found that kids (especially young ones, say up to age 8 or so) are generally very accepting of/comfortable with foreign sounding names. They're still in the process of learning their own language (so they may not know what is and isn't a "normal" name), and they pick up sounds easily. For instance, most adults have trouble with my husband's Korean name, usually pronouncing the vowels incorrectly (they're familiar sounds, just not that order), or forgetting his name altogether. However, our 4 year old neighbor heard it once, pronounced it correctly, and remembered it forever, while her dad STILL mangles it.

Anyway, all this is to say that I definitely don't see Chaya as being so "out there" or difficult for the general public, and I could see it becoming marginally popular among non-Jews. I don't see what's so hard about the Tz- sound, either. It doesn't tend to occur at the beginning of English words, but it's not too far off from the sound at the end of "its" or "cats", or the middle of "Yahtzee" or "Nazi". I think Tzipporah and Tzivya are pretty, and who knows? Maybe Tzippa could be the new Pippa. lol.

"There is a difference between Anglicizing something and making a mistake due to ignorance."

See, I'm not so sure about that. People grab names from other languages and change the pronunciation all the time, without permission from anyone, without consulting native speakers for the "proper" pronunciation. Because they don't need permission, they're completely free to choose a sound they enjoy. There are no name police to stop them. I may not, personally, like all the products of such approaches, but I'd defend the parents' right to choose as they see fit.

I guess you could call it ignorant (or inauthentic), but I'd rather see it as one of the usual complicated processes of gathering and changing that keeps naming alive and fascinating.

Coll-
Your post made me smile because the religious/ethnicity reason was my mom's reason for not changing her name (and my sister is dating a man with a (common nickname for male genitalia embedded in it).

That said, the reason I will probably hyphenate and not just keep my birth name is because growing up, I felt like I had to explain all the time that my parents weren't divorced. That said though, I don't think it will be a huge issue for your future children-- if anything, my mom not changing her name and my dad being OK with that taught me a lot about tradition and gender roles vs. what makes sense :)

I am not familiar with the name Chaya and if I saw it written I would pronounce it Chai-ah. Like Maya.

Almost all my early 30s friends changed their names when they got married, myself included. I am glad my dh, son and I all have the same last name. Of course, going from one name that ended in SON to another one wasn't a big deal.

Hi everyone,
Roenne and Oliver's sibling has arrived: Jack[her ln][his ln]. Imagine something like Jack Carson Durness (to preserve anonymity). It's got a good ring to it, although not totally my style. I'm also very old-fashioned, in that I think of Jack as a diminutive, so not the same style as the other names. It's a family name.
Anyway, I'm very pleased to announce that all are well, and thanks so much to you all for the suggestions.

Laura,

Just so you are aware I don't believe the Advanced Baby Name Finder for the Namipedia is working properly. After selecting "Yes" for Avoiding non-standard spellings... ALL of my results were non-standard spellings (and of more popular names, even though I had also selected more uncommon names) such as:

Chelsey
Abbigail
Kennedi

Selecting "No" produced the same results.

Seems to me there are two ways names from other language contexts are adapted by English-speaking parents:

1. They keep the spelling and change the sound (ex--Camille, Gianna)

2. They keep the sound and change the spelling
(ex--Griffith, Shawn)

Chaya pronounced Chai-ah would be an example of the first way.

But with Maya, Amaya, Anaya, Kaya, and Chaya (#761) already in the top 1000, it's not unlikely that some parents would come up with Chaya independently, just putting sounds together, unaware of its traditional use as a name from Hebrew. I've sure heard worse "made-up" combinations.

As far as I know, Beyoncé isn't actually changing her name. I think Sasha Fierce has been her alter-ego stage name for a while. Sasha refers to herself in the third person and has a much more... fierce... personality than Beyoncé herself.

Makes me laugh.

There were two (unrelated) girls named Chana and Chaya in my extended social circle in college (I'm in my mid-twenties, for reference). Both were Jewish; one of them from NYC, but Manhattan, not Borough Park. I don't know how religious their parents were, but they were both very mainstream themselves. I don't remember anyone having trouble pronouncing their names, though I never paid really close attention--worst-case maybe some people modified the ch- to just h-, and maybe some people had trouble upon first meeting them, but then, they were both very popular and social and generally everyone knew their names already.

I got married less than two months ago and I guess I'm a stereotype-buster, because I'm a young, highly educated liberal from NYC and I changed my name. It just meant more to my husband than it did to me, and I didn't want to disappoint him when I was only neutral on it myself. I also thought it would be nice to have a unified family last name, plus my new surname is very common and I am no longer googleable (I used to be the only result for my old name). AND I now have a very powerful bargaining chip for naming our kids ;) (DH is one of those typical stubborn husbands--"that sounds like a stripper name"... "I don't like the letter J...") I did drop my maiden name to a second middle name, and the official forms seem to accommodate it ok, although on my drivers license it had to drop down to a second line.

Guy Davis- thanks so much for the world naming map. It's really fun to explore. I've discovered a penchant for Norwegian boys' names!

Valerie- Congratulations to Jack's family on the new arrival! I love the name, it's what I would have used for a 3rd son.

Another comment (oops, or 2) on LN changes... traveling this summer with a school group, a family was with us. Mom and Dad are married, mom retained only her LN, and their daughter has only dad's LN. The airline (being that this was a group) didn't seat all 3 together (only dad/daughter), because they didn't realize they were a "family". They also traveled with daughter's birth certificate and their marriage license, as well as passports, "just in case".
Fwiw, I changed my last name when I got married. I didn't particularly love my own (common Scandinavian name) and wanted to have the same name as my dh and kids (and besides, it's a neat LN, lol). When one of my cousins got married, she didn't want to change HER LN, so her husband changed his. He didn't feel a strong connection to his- dad died before birth, mom remarried at 18 mos. and he was adopted. Mom and new-dad killed at 4 yrs old, raised by 2 sets of grandparents and an aunt/uncle... all with different last names. So he was comfortable changing to her LN.

Valerie, thanks for the update re: Jack--it's a fine name, but I'm a little surprised that was their choice. It fits well enough with Oliver on its own, but given their use of Roenne, I'd have expected the third name also to be a little softer and artsier as well. Anyway, it's always fun to hear what the actual pick was, and congrats to the happy family!

Hyz- Thanks for the good wishes!
I totally agree with you. That's exactly what I was thinking. If the baby had been a girl, she would have been Matilda (Tilly) and I think that would have harmonized well. Anyway, I agree, Jack is a fine name. My father is a Jack, although named John, so I'm fond of it.

Lots of interesting conversations going on today! I think I'm too far behind to comment much, but...

@Jewish names, I do know a M@lka born 2002 maybe? Her parents were professors at a liberal arts college above NYC and I believe they were planning to move to the city. They were definitely jewish and the mother was French. Their son was No@m (don't remember if that was how they spelled it).

Nicole R., I love your naming taste! Your son's name, Isaac, is one of my top favorites for boys (do you call him Ike?) and your girl candidates, Alice, Margaret, and Laurel, are all names we considered for our daughter. I think I like Laurel the best just b/c the other two are gaining in popularity, and I like botanical names for girls that aren't flowers (Hazel, Laurel, Ivy and even Myrtle!) So any one of those sounds great, but my vote is for Laurel, with Alice or Margaret maybe for a middle.

A question to Laura: Namipedia is a great tool, but i don't understand how to do something very simple on it: After a reader comment is left in the "reader contributions" section (personal experience, comments on the name, etc.), how do you add something to it or see what other people have said? In other words, is whatever comment appears there now basically all she wrote, or is there a way to join an ongoing conversation about the name? Maybe this is a beta bug that's being worked out, but just wanted to observe that it's frustrating.

I'm loving Namipedia! I have to ask, though: are the additions and edits monitered? I have just added my own name (Samaria) and the information I have added is totally accurate (meaning researched) and I am hoping that some n00b won't go around messing it (and other entries) up.

Newish baby alert (in Sept)- Ivy Delphine

I received much input over the summer on my baby girls name from everyone. I was deciding between Philippa, Juniper and Calla. In the end, we ended up going with an old favorite, Ivy. Thanks for everyone's help!

Steph P-
Congrats. Ivy is a beautiful name, not to mention a board favorite!

Congratulations, Steph P.! I think it's a beautiful name, of course!! I hope you're as happy with the name as we are. :) I loved all your potential name choices. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you also have an August, right? Since that's currently our top pick for any future boys, I find it amusing that we could end up with the same sibling pair someday.

Thanks Hyz. Yes, I also have an August. I thought of you when we decided on Ivy. I still love the other names, be wasn't bold enough to use Juniper and I couldn't convince my husband on Philippa. I'm very happy with my choice. It suits her very well. I get a lot of compliments on her name. I'm sure you have as well.

Steph P.- Congratulations on Ivy! Lovely choice of name. :)

I just can't seem to get the name mapper to work on my computer. I can see everything else, including namipedia and name voyager. But the name mapper just won't load. Does anyone have any ideas? I have Internet Explorer 7.0 and Windows XP.

(formerly C & C's Mom - and now B!)

Steph P, Congratulations!

Nicole R.- I definitely vote Alice or Margaret. I think both are great names on any age! Laurel is pretty, but I think of it as less of a long-term classic. I tend to group it with Heather, etc that some people see as a little date-stamped.

Ha! Thanks Coll and Elizabeth in Canada for the clarification. Should have known it was a "stage persona" kind of thing.

Trying to think of all celebs who have indulged in name changes. Didn't Prince go back to Prince from that hieroglyphic thing? And what is Sean Combs calling himself now? He's had a number of incarnations.

But in the case of those two, I could be wrong but I think they took it more seriously than J-Lo and Beyonce and actually expected their fans and public would obediently start referring to them all the time by their new handles.

I'm surprised Madonna hasn't decreed something similar. But then she is known informally as "Madge", is she not?

Steph P.-- Ivy is lovely- so glad you went with it. Congrats to you and all the other new parents here...

daydream11-- What a pretty name you have in "Samaria". I didn't realize Namipedia is similar to the site Namespedia in that users can go in and alter or otherwise edit other people's entries. I put some entries in Namespedia quite a while back, and don't think they have been messed around with yet, so that's a good sign.