The Baby Name Wizard

You know, I know that the vast majority of people pronounce Sarah and Sara the same way (SAIR-uh), and I know that that's considered correct, but somehow my brain always wants to read Sara as SAA-ruh, with a bright A like in apple (not to open the whole Carrie/Kerry can of worms again...) Possibly because that is the Spanish/Italian spelling of the name? Come to think of it, I knew a Hispanic Sara (raised in the U.S) who insisted on her name being pronounced the Spanish way with a flipped R... that was tough, as I'm not able to roll or flip my Rs very well. I think a lot of people ended up modifying it to a D, SAA-da, which she seemed to prefer to an all-out English R sound (also what my voice teacher had me do to fake it when singing in Italian). I also once knew a Sarah who pronounced her name to rhyme with car.

And here I've always thought of Sarah as one of the straightforward ones...

It's funny that Sarah/Sara was given as an example because that was exactly the example that I had in a comment that I never posted as names that I think of as being different.

Like EVie above, I think of "Sarah" as SEH-rah and "Sara" as SAH-rah, with the "a" from apple or hat. HOWEVER, I do know someone who spells it "Sara" but says it like I say "Sarah", and then it becomes the same name to me. So here, pronunciation trumps spelling.

Colour me inconsistent.

That is a good point. My next son's name is going to be pretty yawn worthy but that to me is better than the cringe factor. A stable grounded name is much better than the eyebrow raise.

monroe was marilyn monroe's grandmother's surname..

not sure where she got marilyn from perhaps she liked the alliteration.

kathy -- I think Monroe is a great name, esp for a girl. I like that /o/ ending. I'm a little less enthusiastic about MM herself, but that's your choice.

Re: variant spellings are/aren't the same name ... I've always considered all spellings of Amy as other Amys. This encompasses Aimees, Amies, Ameys ... am I missing any? Certainly I prefer A-M-Y, but that's just me.

Here's an account of how Norma Jean Mortensen came to be called Marilyn Monroe:
"Aside from her birth name of Norma Jean Mortensen, she was baptized and mainly known throughout her life as Norma Jeane Baker. During her modeling days she was also known as Norma Jeane Dougherty (her first marriage name), and also as Jean Norman. When she signed with 20th Century-Fox, studio liaison Ben Lyon had first chosen the name Carol Lind as her stage name, although she disliked that. Eventually she chose her mother's maiden name of Monroe. Three names were drawn up as possible stage names. The first was Norma Jeane Monroe, although that sounded awkward; the second was Jean Monroe, and the third was Marilyn Monroe, the latter first name being chosen by Lyons who thought Norma Jeane resembled famed stage actress Marilyn Miller. Norma Jeane liked Jean Monroe, for it preserved some of her name, but Lyon convinced her that Marilyn Monroe sounded more alliterative and so it was chosen."
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000054/bio

Kathy-

I guess I'm going to disent here.
I see the appeal of Monroe sound-wise, but I think it's an awful lot to ask of a little girl to use Marilyn Monroe as her namesake.
Most people associate the late actress with the tragic circumstances of her death, her sexy performance of "Happy Birthday," and/or her alleged relationship(s) with the Kennedys.
Imho this is an awful lot of baggage for a young girl. Of course, the association probably wouldn't occur to plenty of folks, but I'd imagine you'd want to tell the "story," of the name, if that is your intent.
Sorry if that sounds too narrow minded-obviously lots of posters have more enthusiasm for it than I.

PS

Kathy,

I didn't see that you had already added some more thoughts on Marilyn.
For the record, I too think there is much about her to be admired, but I stick by my thoughts that the initial associations most have with her life are heavily freighted toward the sexual.
Take care!

Re: Belle/Bella

As Sarah Smile said, with the Twilight movie coming out (and possibly three more movies beyond that), Bella is going to have much more exposure in the coming months/years. The movies and books are all aimed at teenaged to middle-aged women and if the phenomenon has legs I can see Bella climbing the charts as that group of cohorts starts to or continues to have children.

Fortunately or unfortunately, from my perspective the names used in the books are all great (with the exception of Renesmee, but I don't want to go there). I'm sad that my current favourite girls' name is among them. Hopefully it doesn't take off.

The main characters are:

Bella
Edward
Alice
Jasper
Rosalie
Emmett
Carlisle
Esme
Jacob

Re: NY's Jewish population:

Perhaps a better way to look at it is that of all people claiming Jewish descent in the United States (around 6 million), over half live in the New York area.

Of the white population of Manhattan (slightly less than half the borough), 55% are Jewish. The percentage is higher for Brooklyn, but I forget the number. The other three boroughs have much more modest proportions (even the Bronx, which in the 30s was called the "Jewish Borough.")

The average Orthodox family-- which, as Miriam notes, is very separatist-- is quite (7+ children). Marriage is early and universal, contraception is forbidden, and people are taught they have a religious duty to bear many children. As a result, the %age of babies registered as white who are Jewish is higher than the percentage of the overall NYC population that describes themselves as white.

Although the population tends to be isolated in most respects, they of course seek healthcare outside the community. Sadly, since many Orthodox practice consanguinous marriage and have done so for several generations, they often have profoundly sick children, many of whom spend more than 75% of their lives inside the hospital. I can't tell you how many patients I've taken care of with Old World Yiddish and Hebrew names-- so many Chayas, Pesachs, Herschels, Yisroels, Yehudas, Chaims, Shmuels and the like. Some have isolated congenital anomalies that are cured with a one-off operation, but many others are sad, sad little cases.

It's an idiosyncratic lens, to be sure, but that's been my primary interaction with the community.

PS Zelda was the name of my housekeeper growing up, so I'm not sure I could warm up to it for a small child.

I bought a computer today. The salesman told me he had never met a Nicole before, and he thought it was really cool. That kind of blew my mind... and made my day. :-)

My daughter just(just!) got engaged and has decided to take her new husband's last name. I think,primarily, because in the family, we often refer to her as ADF..and her fiancee's name has the same last initial-so she keeps a segment of her identity. And maybe, just maybe, after an adoption and a sad divorce she delights in a new identity. I agonized about changing(losing) my name in the late 60's, but I see none of that in her. Her new mother-in-law was surprised ,as well, but I can see that it feels right for my girl. My fond hope is that she names her a child with a Colombian name that respects her birth heritage.

Patricia, that's an interesting question about more obscure variants on Sarah. You're right that I would have a different reaction to Sairah than I do to Sara, but I suppose if I had to make a choice I would say that it is still the same name. And actually in essence that's what we're saying when we refer to Sara as an alternate spelling of Sarah - it's only alternate if you accept that they are forms of the same name, right?

As far as pronounciation, I think that's even easier. Just because Laura is pronounced differently in Texas than it is in California doesn't mean those are two separate names. Like most Sarah's in the US the first syllable of my name rhymes with care, but the Hebrew prounciation (rhymes with car) is used in some contexts and it is still my name. When I lived in France it was said in a third way, including a rolled R, and that was fine too. Just because someone says your name in their own accent instead of yours doesn't mean they are calling you by the wrong name.

@Aybee - If I knew what made a name "yawn worthy," my name would be Laura Wattenberg & I'd write a book just like hers. ;) But seriously, that's tough to answer. First, I think top SSA rankings are a good proxy for the yawn factor. Having just perused the 2007 list, I can say for sure that anything in the top 50 for boys and the top 70 for girls gets a big ol' YAWN from me.

That elusive sweet spot "between a yawn and a cringe" - actually Laura's recent post on the "Why Not? List" hits that nail on the head so nicely. Check it out:

http://www.babynamewizard.com/archives/2008/6/why-not-indeed

Re: what feelings names like Kinley and Teagan conjur - honestly I'd have to know the parents to say for sure. If these names were picked for sound vs. if they're family names, that kind of info changes the optics for me. They sort of sound like traditional names, but have never been extremely popular - which suggests they're probably not traditional at all, but I don't know. Are we in the American South? That also makes a difference. I'm definitely not yawning though. Can't tell the kid's gender with those names. NMS really.

Aybee-I for one, LOVE Connor and Nathan. I do not find them "yawn-worthy" at all. In fact, Connor is one of my favorite names. As there are all sorts of different people, there are all sorts of different names, and all sorts of different opinions about such. I find Kinley to be a bit "out-there" and wonder about its meaning and background and use for gender. Teagen I have less problems with as I have heard it used before and also like the sound of it better than Kinley. Isn't it Scottish/Irish or something?

KneeCoal Peay and Zoerhenne-

I was just using Teagen and Kinley as examples-- I don't know any IRL but have heard the names discussed on other boards.

I agree, KneeCoal, that sometimes a name's significance to the family will change my feelings about it. However, what if it is someone you don't know intimately enough to get that story? Let's say I don't like the name Kelsey. If Kelsey tries to sell me a computer (thanks N. Amanda for giving me an example :) ) Will I ever find out that she was named for Kelso, her mother's maiden name?

Complete lists of 2007 New York City baby names:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/10/nyc_names.html

Lots of interesting name data!

Amusing article on how to choose a baby name:
http://www.parentdish.com/2008/10/23/a-rose-by-any-other-name-would-prob...

I think we've already seen some results of this suggestion: Throw Scrabble pieces on the floor and create names out of whatever letters land face up ;-)

Patricia, thank you for the link. Is Esther's high rank on the "white, female" list also due to the large NY Jewish population? In addition to Chaya, that one is the stand-out for me. Interesting information.

Thanks, Patricia- both links are fascinating!

OMG, Sarah Palin told People Magazine that she always wanted to use the boy name Zamboni!! I don't think she was kidding either.

http://www.parentdish.com/2008/10/24/sarah-palin-has-her-next-babys-name...

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20235099_6,00.html

I saw that Zamboni thing, too! Want to know what my first thought was? Well, the machine is named after its inventor [Frank Zamboni], meaning that if she were to use the name she would actually be fitting into the Last-Name-As-First-Name trend!

Zamboni Palin but not Puck Palin? Huh.

But Zamboni has that ethnic flair. Though Puck is very A Midsummer Night's Dream, so it has that literary pedigree, going for it. And it is one syllable, which seems to be their preference for boys' names. Actually, Puck would fit in nicely, now that I think about it. The biggest thing against it is the potential for unfortunate rhyming..

How about Jersey? (It may not evoke cows for everyone.)

The rhyming thing has got to be a deal breaker on Puck, if ever a deal breaker existed. Much as I love AMND.

I mentioned the Zamboni comment to my dh and he totally thought that Palin was joking and it just didn't come across. I honestly don't know, myself.

@Aybee - so you're asking what we think of names like Kinley and Teagan completely blind, knowing nothing of the parents?

I've met a lot of kids under 3 with names like these, such as Reagan, Payton, and Kendall. They're all NMS, though I think they're in line with current trends. For lack of a better term, I'd call them Made-Up-Last-Names. The odd thing is, each name is uncommon enough individually, but taken together as a group, they're played out and actually hard to differentiate. Like was that girl named Teagan or Keegan? Brindley or Kinley? Does that make any sense? I'm not a big fan of made up, androgynous names.

I gave you the link to the Why Not? list post because I think that best represents the area you're looking for - something between a yawn and a cringe. I prefer names that have some historical usage as first names versus those that only have surfaced as first names in the last 2 decades yet strangely come across as trying to sound older or more steeped in tradition.

There are 710 "Faigy"s listed on the NYC baby name list (female). Has anyone heard of that? It's not on Behind the Name...

Listening to NPR at lunch today, a woman being interviewed had the first name of T@ngerine. I googled her, and it's her true name (listed a sister named Ven!ce). She sounds like a really intelligent, driven, interesting woman, and obviously having a name she got ridiculed for (she said so in an online interview I read) didn't hold her back.

Other names... I met a sibling set R0y and
Ir3ne, ages 3 and 1. Those names fit together well for me.
Dh has a student named Sh3rylvi, said like Sheryl + vee. I have no idea how mom came up with that one.

Speaking of Monroe (as we were several posts back), when I mentioned the name to my dh, he immediately recalled a prominent man in our metropolitan area whose name is Monroe. This man is in his 60s and African-American. DH has the impression that the name has not been unusual among older African-American males.

I checked in Wizard -- no entry for Monroe; then in Cleveland Kent Evans' baby name book -- which includes Monroe among names for boys: James Monroe was the fifth president of the United States. His surname was frequently used as a given name during the 19th century, but it practically disappeared in that role around 1960... SSA data shows that Monroe as a male name peaked at 185 in 1886 and was last in the top 1000 names for baby boys in 1971 at 955.

I think Monroe could be an interesting 'revival' name for a baby boy.

Faigy sounds Yiddish to me, although I've never actually heard it before. I did notice some other Yiddish names on that list, so I think it's just one more example of the Chaya theorem.

I also noticed a few -y endings for names that traditionally end in -a, like Malky and Rivky. I wonder whether that represents a trend within that community, just like the -en names are hot these days in ours.

Indeed the name Faigy is Yiddish, coming from a diminutive of the Yiddish word for "bird", Faygl (or Foygl). I have more often seen the spelling "Feyge", though this is sometimes pronounced with the "EE" sound at the end, making the "y" ending not surprising. Another diminutive form would be Faigeleh/Feygeleh.

(The Hebrew correlate is Tziporah (or Zipporah), from the Hebrew word for "bird", Tzipor.)

I wondered about Faigy too, guessed that it might be a Jewish name, and googling it, I found that it is. From a website "connecting Jewish mothers":
Tzipora=Faigy

On a baby name website Faigy is given as a sibling name for Mordechai.

I'll be waiting to hear more about Faigy from some of the Jewish members of this blog. How is it pronounced, what does it mean, etc.?

Interesting UK sibset just spotted: Jack (14), Rebecca (11) and Reg (8). I'm betting Reg is in honor of Grandpa. Does Reg (pronounced Redge and short for Reginald) occur in the US?

Nicole R.,

I haven't had a chance to read all the comments yet, and obviously I'm a latecomer to this thread. However, among your choices -- Alice, Laurel, and Margaret -- Laurel is my favorite by far. In fact, it was on our original list, but the two Ls sound does not work with our last name. I love it, though.

I have a baby girl due in January, too. Still unnamed, in fact. That's why I'm here! :)

What are your thoughts on hyphenated first names: Mary-Anne, Anna-Louisa, Ethel-Mae and the like? Do you ever actually see hyphenated first names IRL? If so, does the person also have a middle name?

re: Faigy. Never heard of it. Though I confess it sounds a little too much like faygele (FAY-guh-luh) for me to get too enthused...

My boss at my last magazine job was an Orthodox woman named Faygie (pronounced Faye-gee with a hard g). I'd never heard the name before, and at first thought the sound unpleasing. But, as is the way with names, I came to associate the name with the person, who I liked and respected, and now I like it much more.

As the Faygie I knew had gone to religious Jewish schools and was from a fairly insular community in New Jersey, I doubt her name raised many eyebrows, except when she was in a professional environment. In that setting, she did frequently have to correct the pronunciation of people who wanted to pronounce it with a soft g.

Valerie, Reginald is a secret fave of mine along with fuddy-duddy Brit names like Nigel, Alistair, and Jasper: all names on which my husband will surely one day use his veto.

Reginald was the name of a patient of mine a few years ago. He was African-American, and I think I do tend to associate the name (and the nickname Reggie) more with African-Americans. There is also the football player Reggie Bush, and I think there are a few other well known athletes named "Reggie" although I can't recall at this moment. On the other hand, Reginald Denny was a white man who was beaten during the LA riots, so it's not always the case.

I'm another Sarah here. I feel some connection to people named Sara, but it feels much stronger to people who spell it like I do.

Regarding double/hyphenated names, my mom is named Marylou (no hypen, no capital L), and she does not have a middle name.

Finally, count me in as a fan of the names Connor and Nathan. Not unique, certainly, but very solid and pleasing names.

I know a "Shari Ann", a "Shari-Ann(e?)" and a "JaneTara" (no hyphen, no space, capitalization in the middle). I don't know about the middle name status of any of them, but the double name thing is really not my taste.

Also, include me in the fans of Connor camp. However, I don't like the name Nathan because of bad associations with a horrible high school teacher named Mr. Nathan. I do like the name Nathaniel, though.

Nicole S.:

My thoughts are that if you want to bestow a double name that will remain a double name, you had best use a hyphen!

People are absolutely, resolutely, obtusely dead-set on not using both names of a double name, and a hyphen is just that added kick in the pants to get people to use others' names properly.

I have met at least three people (that I remember) who had a heck of a time trying to get people to say both their names. One was a Mary Margaret. Good lord, but did it bother me to see her introduce herself as "Mary Margaret" and then, a few minutes later, to hear someone call her "Mary."

I'm sorry about the rant, but I feel very strongly that people's preferences--their names, their pronunciations--should be honored, especially when it comes to one's own identity.

For example, that Hispanic Sara mentioned above who liked the "r" flipped--if that's her identity, then don't deny her it!

I can think of absolutely no reason or excuse why a woman who introduces herself as Mary Margaret should not be referred to as such by all and sundry, at all times.

And I believe that a hyphen will go a LONG way towards making teachers, customer service reps, and others who read the name first use the name properly...with BOTH names!

Oh, and Mary Margaret DID have a middle name.

Don't know about the Sara Beth or the Sally Ann, though. (I'm guessing not, just because Beth and Ann "seem" like the typical mid-20th century middle names, so a real MN might be overkill, but I have no idea).

Nicole S,

I have an aunt named Rose-Marie and know a Mary-Grace, both in their 50's. I also know a Mary Sarah and a Mary Clare who have gone by both names as well as a Marygrace, a Jennamarie and a Rosemarie. I don't know about all of them but Rose-Marie does have a middle name.

Re: Reggie. I think of Archie comics so to me Reggie is a dark-haired arrogant, rich white teenager.

I don't know if you were specifically asking about female names, but in Quebec, double names are very common for both male and female Francophones. Although I do feel like these names are distinctly different from English ones..

I know (directly or indirectly):
Marie-France, Marie-Hélène, Marie-Eve, Marie-Claude, Marie-Pierre, Marie-Elaine (see a theme?)

Jean-François, Jean-Pierre, Jean-Marie, Pierre-Marie (yes, these are male names), Jean-Philippe, Philippe-Edouard

Then there is the NHL goalie Jean-Sébastien (JS) Giguère, the filmmaker Jean-Luc Godard, the actor Jean-Luc Picard, the "actor" Jean-Claude Van Damme...

This probably isn't what you were asking for, but since these sorts of names are so common here, there really isn't a problem with getting people to use both names. A lot of people with these sorts of names, especially the males whose first name is Jean, tend to go by their initials like "JF" or "JS" or "JP". Someone I know just goes by "J".

All the double named children I know have no hyphen and the 2nd name is actually his/her middle name. I have known an adult Mary Margaret and an adult Mary Emily who went exclusively by both names - in both cases the Mary was a first name and Emily/Margaret was the middle name.

In the younger crowd, I currently know a John Cameron, Lily Kathryn and a Laura Lilly (actually Laura Lillian) - all called by both names.

For my own dd, I loved the sound of Molly Campbell so much that I briefly considered using it as a double name. However, no one in my dh's family would have understood/gotten it. As it is, they almost had a meltdown when we decided to call her by her middle name and not her first.

My mother-in-law is a Mary Lou (fn / mn), always called by both or her initials. I have a colleague who is a MaryBeth (no space, don't know if she has a mn). And I used to have many Mary ... colleagues -- Mary Anne, Mary K. (always called Mary K.), and Mary Elizabeth (known as Ma'l!s -- pronounced muh-liss).

Easternbetty -- I wholeheartedly agree that whatever someone wants to be called and however he/she wants it pronounced is what the rest of us should do to the best of our abilities. I work with a woman who is constantly bestowing nns on people, even if that's not what they call themselves (e.g., turning Steven into Steve).

On hyphenated double first names -- I agree that the hyphen is one of your best bets as far as getting people to say both names all the time. I also know someone named AmyNicole, with no space between the names and both names capitalized, and everyone has always called her by both names, so I think smushing the names together like that can also work. Personally, I prefer double names that have no hyphen and no smushing, a la Mary Elizabeth, but it seems like an uphill battle getting people to say the name correctly. All in all, I'm not a fan of most double names, but I've heard a few combinations that sound so good together (usually with a not-so-common name in there, like Anna Simone) that I can warm up to them once in a while.

Karyn,

Isn't Jean-Luc Picard the name of the captain of the Enterprise in Star Trek: the Next Generation? THe actor's name is a very un-French, un-hyphenated Patrick Stewart.

Oh, but you remind me that I did know a Jean-Philippe who was from somewhere in the Caribbean. It occurs to me now that I also had a boss named Marie-Berthe who went by Marie and a great-uncle named Jean-Baptiste. Both came from French-Canadian families.

Easternbetty - Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Sara-with-a-flipped-R shouldn't have her preferred pronunciation honored when possible... but in my case (and I'm not the only one), I am really physically unable to make that sound correctly. My tongue just doesn't want to do it, and as a singer I've had more diction training than most, as well as several years of Italian language classes. So I guess I was just suggesting that if your preferred pronunciation includes sounds that are non-standard in English, you're going to have to be a bit more flexible (same goes for Chaya, who will inevitably be called Haya by people who can't do the -ch, and, for that matter, Carrie from the northeast who moves to the midwest and finds that everyone calls her Kerry--if they can't create that sound, you're not going to get anywhere by correcting them).

Double names - sometimes when the second name is actually a surname, like Mary Taylor LN, it sounds as though the second given name is actually the last name when they introduce themselves: "Hi, I'm Mary Taylor." Very easy in that case to assume they're just called Mary, I've made that mistake too.

Heh, yes, the actor's name doesn't fit and I should have written "character". I got distracted by my amusement at the distinction between actor and "actor" and didn't pause to consider my accuracy. Oops.

I know a RaeAnna (whose mn and ln both also have two capital letters making for a total of six!) and a Da-nell, which I thought was a bit odd since it had a hyphen but no capitalization on the 'nell'.