The Baby Name Wizard

Penelope-
Personally, I like names for all children--adopted or not-- to reflect their heritage. I guess I should ammend that--I just wouldnt want a name that obviously is not from the child's culture, if that makes sense.

For instance, I am ethnically Jewish and I wouldn't necessarily only like a historically-Jewish name on a child of that background, but it would be odd to meet a child of that background with a name like Liam, I think.

That said, I can think of a lot of examples of children with perfectly nice names that I do not associate with their ethnicities.

Focusing on the adopted children I know, all adopted by caucasian parents:

Mexican-American: Taylor
Asian: Katherine (2), Kevin, Julian, Madeline

RE: Coll (#114)

Austen actually uses both spellings. Elinor for Sense and Sensiblity. Eleanor for Northanger Abbey. (Eleanor is Henry Tilney's sister)

A friend has new Christmas season twin neices...
All!son Pearl and Helen Patr!ce. I am loving the names.

I'm also curious what others think of the name Clarice. It was my great-grandmother's middle name, and I'd like to use it as a middle name some day. I have also never seen the movie and wasn't aware of the negative connotation until reading a post about it on this blog several months ago. Is it a no-go?

My husband and I are expected our first child in July, and not finding much overlap on the names we like. So far our top mutually-liked names are:

GIRL: Ada, Sylvie, Ivy, Avonlea
BOY: Leon, Leif, Archer, Avon

(By way of explanation, "Avon" is pronounced with a soft "A," not a hard "A" like the makeup company - my husband's family is from a town of this name so that's the connection...we thought softening it to Avonlea for a girl would be nice and my sisters and I have always loved the Anne books by L.M. Montgomery, so there would be connections to both families!)

Questions:
(1)General thoughts, preferences, or alternate suggestions?
(2) Can anyone suggest a middle name for Sylvie? Our last name is fairly generic, has two syllables, and goes with many styles of naming so that's not an issue. (We're thinking of "York" as a middle name since we're both from NY, but it seems masculine so probably only with the boy's names.)
(3) Since our last name begins with "F," do you think that the first name "Leif" is out because people will hear the "f" sounds together and think his name is "Lee"?

(Prarie Dawn, I notice you are also considering the name Sylvie!)

I don't get why people would have such a bad connection to the name Clarice -- she's the heroine of the movie, the one who catches Hannibal, not a cannibal herself! And the character's name, Clarice Starling, is lovely (and clearly chosen to denote her goodness, with echoes of "clarity," "star," and the bird starling.) Not to mention the fact that by the time any child being born now grows up, The Silence of the Lambs will hardly be at the forefront of anyone's mind.

If you want another good namesake for Clarice, there's the wonderful Brazilian writer Clarice Lispector, one of the greatest novelists of the 20th century (and a household name in Brazil.) Anyway, if it's not obvious already, I love Clarice and would love to see it back in circulation!

Nora - I quite like York as a mn for a girl or a boy. I think Ivy York and Sylvie York sound very nice together.

For a boy, I think Avon would frequently be pronounced like the cosmetics company so I personally wouldn't go for that one. Also, I am not wild about Leon -sounds like an older man to me- but I do love the similar sounding Leo and Leander. I also love Archer (nn: Archie?) York!

GL

Elizabeth T - My own Campbell gets called Camby by her grandma (and camel by her brother!)

"Do you really think a girl named Lenni/ie/y would avoid being associated with Riefenstahl?"

If we are talking about the US, I think that the vast majority of people have never heard of Leni Riefenstahl and have no associations with the name at all. For those old enough or up on their history enough to know, using a spelling other than Leni would indicate that this is not a Nazi tribute name (like the horrid names bestowed on the Campbell children).

"I don't get why people would have such a bad connection to the name Clarice...."

I would guess that the problem lies in the menacing hiss with which Hannibal pronounces her name. Perhaps people are afraid that little playground bullies will spend all day hissing Clarice Hannibal-style. I think that concern is fast receding, and I seriously doubt the parenting skills of any mother or father who lets a child young enough to be a playground bully see that movie anyway. My son was an adolescent when that movie came out. He wanted to see it, we forbade it, he sulked, so what. An alternative is Clarissa. One can be sure that no little playground bully has ever read Richardson. If Clarice were a name in my family, I would not hesitate to use it, just as I would not hesitate to use my mother's name Eleanor no matter how many little Ellas/Ellies are running around.

Nora, I like all of your choices! Names that begin with A (well, possible exception Adolf) tend to be well-liked in Anglophone countries, in my experience. There is something really pleasing about an "A" at the beginning of a name: Alice, Archer, Andrea, etc. I'd say those wide-open As are more pleasing to *my* ear than the dipthong-prone ones of "Avery" and "Ada," but to each her or his own in that department. (Then again, I'm from the South, where every vowel sound can be stretched every which way. "Hey"= "Ha-ya-ee.")

Could you clarify the prounciation of Avon and Avonlea for me?

The way I've heard th ecosmetic company pronounced is for the "a" in Avon to rhymne with the words "hay," "may," etc. I believe that a child in the U.S. will be up against major pronunciation snafus if you wanted it to be pronounced with the "a" of Apple.

Avonlea, on the other hand, I've only ever heard pronounced with the "A" of Apple. And I've always thought it would make a great name.

Love the name Archer. Very Edith Wharton! We've discussed it here before if you're able to do a search of the blog.

My picks would be Avonlea for the girl and Archer for the boy--but ONLY if you are willing to pick a non-A name for any child that would come afterwards. Avonlea and Archer or Avonlea and Alice would be too cutesy for my tastes.

Ivy and Archer would be an excellent sibset, as would Sylvie and Archer.

I don't think Leif Farrow or Leif Finkel works very well, to be honest. It sounds like "Lee Farrow" or, worse, "Leif Arrow."

On the celebrity kids:

Any first-generation Westerners who can attest to the extreme F.O.B.-ishness of Dolly? This name is extremely analagous to that of my own name and that of my younger siblings: 1950s throwbacks bestowed on children born of the late 70s/early 80s. Heck, I myself KNOW one Indian-born Dolly, one Trinidadian daughter-of-Indian immigrants Dolly, one Egyptian-born Dolly, and one Kenyan-born Dolly! (All but one under 40 yrs old). many F.O.B.s I know like this name because of its sing-song pattern that is easily pronounced in many languages.

I also find the aggressive infantilization of women's names alone (compared to men's) rather obnoxious. I can think of no English-language male equivalent to Dolly, Candy, etc. I don't even know what parents in the 21st century who speak English as a first language are thinking when they bestow the name Dolly on a child. Molly and Katie are regrettable in their lack of longer/more formal name, but not, IMO, egregious the way Dolly and Candy are. "Hello, my name is Dolly O'Connell, I'll be performing your surgery next week." She's just introduced herself as a child's toy. Literally.

Charlie's also regrettable in its lack of a longer/formal name, but, again, not as bad as Dolly.

I haven't seen the movie Silence of the Lambs, and my first association for the name Clarice is the children's books about Clarice Bean by Lauren Child (the creator of Charlie and Lola).

Clarice is a no go for me--despite lizpenn's very good points about it, all I can think of when I hear it is Hannibal Lechter saying "Hello, Clarice" in his very creepy voice--shudder. Otherwise, I think I would like the name.

Nora--I like most of your choices very much, so I might not be much help--but here goes:
1) (General thoughts) My daughter is Ivy, but was very nearly Sylvia (nn Sylvie), so obviously I love those. One thing to consider is that if you plan on having future kids, and happen to have a girl, using either one of those names may prevent you from using the other, if you feel (like I do) that they're a little to close for comfort in sound. I think you could get away with Ivy and Sylvia, but not as much with Ivy and Sylvie. So, pick carefully! I also like Ada very much. Avonlea I'm so-so on--I like the books, like the reference, especially because it has meaning to both you and your DH, but such an obvious reference to literature makes me a little uncomfortable--seems to me she might go through life always having people wanting to talk about Anne of Green Gables with her, which she might find annoying. Alternate suggestions to consider (from my lists, since we seem to have overlapping tastes) are Averil, Avril, and Adele.

For the boys, I think Avon would probably be constantly mispronounced, and the child would likely be teased about the make-up connection, so that would be a no go for me, although I like the sound of it, and your connection to it. I also don't care for Leon much--it sounds a bit middle-aged and frumpy to me. I much prefer Leo, which I think is both handsome and cute (depending on the age of the bearer). I like both Leif and Archer. Again, from my list, alternate suggestions you might like--Silas, August, Rowan, Oliver, Shepherd, Ansel.... It might be helpful to get a sense of your criteria, so we can try to tailor our suggestions.

(2) Middle names for Sylvie, with F_plain2syl_ LN, let's say Fisher for the heck of it. For sound/flow, I like something with 1, 3, or 4 syllables in the middle. Something like Sylvie Jane Fisher, Sylvie Hyacinth Fisher, or Sylvie Angelica Fisher. But I think we need a few more ideas from you about what you're looking for in a middle name to really be helpful. I like York with the first names that don't end with y/ie, but not so much with Ivy and Sylvie--it's just too much Y in the middle for me, and sounds a bit sing songy, and like Ivy Orc or Sylvie Orc.

(3) Yes, unfortunately, I do think Leif "Fisher" would be constantly heard as Lee "Fisher", and for that reason it would be out for me. We had a similar problem with names ending in S (including my favorite boy's name, Silas), since our last name begins with S and it just doesn't work well together. The problem is accentuated if the FN minus the last letter is a name in itself (like Leif/Lee). So, from your current boy list, I would pick Archer, unless your LN actually happens to be Fisher, lol, in which case I think the combo would be a little over the top.

More celeb reports on the O'Connell twins' names: Apparently, Mom Rebecca got to pick one name and Dad Jerry got to pick the other. Rebecca picked Dolly after Dolly Parton. Jerry picked Charlie after his twin brother. So that's why the first names don't match; they were picked by different people!

In terms of male infantization names, there are some male nicknames that if used as a given names I think would be roughly equivalent: Billy, Timmy, Johnny, Bobby, Junior, Chip.

Question for you all -

I'm about halfway through my pregnancy, and we just found out we're having a boy. We've pretty much decided on the name Jack, but here's the dilemma. My husband's father is named John, and I thought we could use John as our son's formal name, but call him Jack.

But, my husband's brother has John as a middle name and just gave it to his newborn son as a middle name as well. If we use John, is it too much naming after one family member? Should we use just Jack to simplify things? I think John sounds better with the middle name we both agree on.

Delia - what's the middle name you both agree on?

I think John is a common enough name that one cousin with John as the middle name and the other with John as the first name (although called Jack) would be fine, especially since they are both named after a grandfather. I might feel differently if it were a very uncommon name and there was no family connection.

Jack is one of those names that I think can just be Jack, although others on here will disagree. I think I know enough Jacks that it seems like a stand alone name to me, not just a nickname.

Re Leni: I did not know who she was until I clicked on the link that was posted. I asked my dh about her. He's much more passionate about history than I am. Anyway, he said even though she was supportive and a friend of Hitler, her work was brilliant. So, I don't believe she's a horrible person. (Did she actually hurt anyone herself?) I think that each person lives in their own time and does the best that they can with their lives given their own individual circumstances. Also, my first thought when I think of Leni/Lenny is a short form of Elena for a girl. Or for a boy I think of Lenny + Squiggy from Laverne and Shirley. Now Laverne is a name that I would NOT use-very 50's waitress for me.

Re Clarice: Love it. Love Clarissa also. Read the books/saw the movies/don't hear the hissing voice when I say it.

@Nora-I like Ava if it weren't so overly popular. Avonlea is very pretty and I also like the connection. It does seem like she would have to always discuss the books as hyz pointed out. Sylvie Alice(Al-iss) or Alyse(uh-leece) sounds good to me. Maybe something along the lines of Nicole also with a hard sound to contradict the softness of Sylvie. For a boy, I like Archer alot but nn Archie is nms. Leo is better than Leon as already stated. Leander is a good option as mentioned. Maybe look into Nymbler for some other suggestions.

@Delia-Hmm. Grandfather + uncle mn + cousin mn all same. I don't think in the mn spot its that big a deal. As long as your whole family doesn't call themselves all John! Then it would get pretty confusing. My gfather name is John as well as my father and bro. I was not going to do that to my own son. He has something completely different. Btw, all 3 use different nn's so it works out. John is also nms as it seems a bit boring to me. Could you use a mn not already used or your dh's first as a mn? Sort of carrying on the tradition w/o using John.

It's been a while... my whole family went round and round with illness for about a month, but everyone's better now, and so I'm back to my indulging my name obsession.

Nora, I agree that Leif will not work with the last name. But I like Archer and Sylvie quite a bit!

Wendolyn-For Esme and Enzo mn options, I've looked up a few 18th century authors to go with Frost and here are a few I thought might fit: Grey, Wilde, Harte, Crane, Gale, Poole, Wolfe - I think some of these have a nature sound to them, even if they don't fit the winter theme. (Although I immediately picture a grey winter sky when I hear the name).

Delia, I think as long as your brother and sister-in-law have no intention of calling the baby John, you could safely name your baby John and call him Jack.

Which brings me to my latest dilemma... I'm hoping some of you may be able to help me out. My husband is Hispanic and as you may know it is very common for cousins to have the same name...which I find confusing and slightly absurd but it is what it is. However, the brothers have all married Caucasian girls and so there hasn't been the typical Mexican naming pattern with our generation.

But even with that, we do have siblings who are Alejandro and Ana and then cousins (also siblings) were later named Adriana (and is called Ana) and Alexandra. I think that the namers of the 2nd set were not very considerate when choosing those names or nicknames, especially since there is nobody in the family prior to the first cousins with those names. (I do have more understanding when it comes to old family names, but still.)

When it came to naming our own children, I was very careful not to use anything on my husband's side other than my husbands fn as my son's mn. My grandfather's name is James, and that is my brother's mn as well... there are also a slew of cousin's with James as a mn as well but only one who uses it as his given name. I decided I wanted to honor my grandfather but not use "James" since it is already in use in our family currently. So, my son's name is Diego Jesus.

We saw all of our family over the holidays and I overheard my newest sister-in-law explaining to one of the others that she and her husband wanted to use a name that they like both in English and Spanish and have found (James-Santiago) as their only agreement. Since I was in the other room, I didn't say anything, but this really bothers me a lot. Since I've met her family, I do not believe that there are any close relatives of hers with the name James and I can see how if they end up using Santiago at all (which they would with my husband's family) then he will easily become another Diego.

My question is, may I say something to her, or do I just have to leave it alone and hope for the best? And if you think I can say something, how would you suggest going about it? Thanks for your input!

Aybee, funny what you said about a hypothetical ethnically Jewish child named Liam - my close friends are ethnically Jewish and their son is Liam Benj@min! It never really struck me as strange but I see what you mean.

Nora, from your list my favorites are Ivy and Archer, which has the cute possibility of Archie a nickname.

Charlie O'Connell is Jerry O'Connell's brother but they are not twins. Jerry is older. I am embarrassed that I know that.

Newborn twin girls:

Jane Le@h
Michon M@ry

older brother is named Charlie. I think it's a cute sibling set.

Re: Leni - I believe Heidi Klum named her daughter Leni. As I don't hear people accusing her of any untoward cultural associations, it would seem the name Leni is safe for democracy. ;) Besides, most Americans have never heard of Leni R.--of that I'm sure!

Re: Clarice - What a good name in theory, but the writing is on the wall. Anyone over 30 will think "SOTL." I'd put Clarice in the same category as Amity (as in "-ville Horror,") and Reagan (as in "The Exorcist")-- those cinematic associations trump everything. (We're not talking about any playground teasing here, just the perplexed disdain of the mature folks.) I know of a little Clarice with a hideous kre8tiv spelling, who is sister to a Brayden with yet another hideous kre8tiv spelling, so much of the lovely glow of Clarice has been ruined for me. However, if it is a beloved family name for you, go for it.

@Nora - Sylvie is a wonderful, underused name. (If only all of those parents of Sophias/ Sophies would have considered her!) It would pair well with a long, beautiful middle name that would be too much to use as a first name, such as Lucienne, Francesca, or Aurelia. Unfortunately, I'm not too keen on any of your boy names. Archer is fine I suppose, but I confess I'm weary of the Tradesman Names trend (unless he actually has arrows in his quiver, of course...)

@Delia - I'm not a fan of Jack as a given first name - I much prefer the traditional John with Jack as a nickname (or Johnny, or Jackie). As Coll mentioned earlier, I like the flexibility of bestowing a name that has many nickname possibilities. As you've described your situation, I doubt you'll need the permission of anyone in your family to use John.

@Bethany - My advice is to say nothing, and don't make waves in your family. You have no claim on James, nor for that matter on Santiago, despite its alleged closeness to your Diego. Besides, I don't see any ill motives at play in your extended family; even if there were, it is always wise to be nice & say little. A dialogue on this matter would accomplish nothing.

@KRC & Aybee - I agree re: little Jewish Liams. Ditto all of the little Jewish Owens I'm seeing everywhere. There's of course nothing wrong with these names - I'm just getting old & did not know there were so many Irish Jews! ;)

(Edit: I'm Jewish, too, and yes, I still see Celtic names like Liam and Owen as decidedly Christian - perhaps they've become secular and I'm far behind the curve.)

Bethany - I think I'd leave it alone and hope for the best. There are a lot of ifs, and it sounds like the sort of family where if you wanted something totally unique you'd have to be very creative.

Prairie Dawn:

I know your comment was made a couple of days ago, but I *had* to reply. My husband's parents let the two older boys (my husband included) choose the middle names for their newborn brother. Apparently, there was a tv show at this time (late 80s) that had a boy named Sc0tt and a robot named T-Bot. So, seriously, on his birth certificate, their brother is J0hn Sco++ T-b0t LN. SO funny!

I think it's helpful to know that some translate Diego into James in English.

I think that the names are different enough not to cause a problem. It appears that James and Diego are only related by moving from James to Jacob to Ya'akov to Iakobos to Iaco to Iago to Tiago to Diego. Pretty tenuous. Jaime and James are more similar/confusing.

http://spanish.about.com/od/historyofspanish/a/diego.htm

KRC-
That is funny! I actually like the name Liam-- I was just trying to come up with an example that to me sounded distinctly one ethnicity (in this case Irish). As it is growing in popularity, I'm sure it is used by people of all ethnities (much like Sean/Shawn/Shaun is now. I'm glad you said you can see what I mean, because I'm having an awfully hard time articulating it!

Wow Bethany, I'm glad you're feeling better. That is a tough situation. I don't suppose you could say something like "I heard you want to name your baby James Santiago. I've forgotten, is that after someone special? What do you plan to use as his nn?" If she says Diego could you then offer some other suggestions like "Oh, I feel so honored but have you thought about Jamie or Augie or something?" Sorry, I don't know if these would actually be Hispanic nn's as I don't know many from that culture. I hope you get the idea of what I was suggesting though.

What fun, Elizabeth T.-- "Camby"! And very interesting that C and C's Mom- and now B!'s daughter Campbell gets the same nickname at times.
I would not have thought of it myself, and I love it.

Again, "Lenny"/"Lennie"/"Leni" have trad'ly been used as nicknames for the whole constellation of "Helen/Ellen/Eleanor/Elinor/Lenore etc. and I think they're a great option. I do think "Leni" need not be associated with Reifenstahl-- I have long been aware of her historically, but the well-accepted German nickname Leni is not tainted by her, in my opinion. Heidi Klum has used it for her little girl, has she not?

As an English speaker, I have a slight aversion to the random "continentalization" of names, so I'd probably first gravitate toward Lennie/Lenny!

It's a weird quirk of mine-- when English speakers start randomly bestowing very specific names like "Helmut", "Giovanni" and "Lars-Erik" it sort of irrationally trips my pretention-o-meter! I realize there are many eloquent partisans of this practice though...

Yet, Penelope, I quite like your idea of adding a Spanish name to the mix. I don't think you HAVE to, but it would be appropriate. I like the suggestion (by zoerhenne?) of a name that spans cultures...

Oh, apropos to this topic, I just thought of something. Radio host Laura Ingraham fairly recently adopted a little girl from Central America (perhaps Guatemala?) and named her "Maria Ingraham". I like this nod to little Maria's Hispanic origins, plus Laura Ingraham is a devout Catholic, so that may have played a role.

Also, her adored, deceased mother (Laura Ingraham's) was Polish-American, and "Maria" would I think be the form of Mary used in Polish, would it not?

Or would it be "Marya", (Ma-RYE-ah) which is also ravishing?

Finally, "Maria" was especially popular in Victorian England as were other latin-based names. I think in some of those cases it was pronounced Ma-RYE-ah, come to think of it.

Would love to know what middle name(s) she gave, if any...

First let me clarify that I do not think that I have a claim to James. And if they would just call the baby James, Jamie, Jaime, Jay, Jim or some other varient, I would be okay with that.

Santiago is one of the spanish translations for James and that is what they are suggesting using around my husband's family... and possibly what would be on the baby's birth certificate (they would call him James with her family).

But naming her son Santiago after I've named my son Diego is the equivalent of naming your child Benjamin after your sister just named her son Ben. This is where I have a problem ... unless you are very insistent that Benjamin will only be called Banks or Benjamin, there's a great chance someone will call him Ben (and may do so even if you are insistent).

Thanks for all your input, and would love to hear from others!

"I agree re: little Jewish Liams. Ditto all of the little Jewish Owens I'm seeing everywhere. There's of course nothing wrong with the names - I'm just getting old & did not know there were so many Irish Jews! ;)"

For at least two millennia Jewish males have had double names--the shem kodesh which is the true name and is used for marriages, divorces, on tombstones, being called to the Torah, etc., and the shem kinnui which is used for civil purposes outside the Jewish community and can be any name which blends in with the surrounding non-Jewish culture. So the Liams and Owens may really be Labans or Ovadyas. In general I think that American Jews would avoid civil names that are overtly Christian, like, say, Christian (this was a name typically given to Jews who converted to Christianity in the Middle Ages) or Christopher. There is no particular onus on Irish names--I have a cousin Brian who would be in his 50s now. There are only about 150 names, mostly biblical, which are acceptable as shem kodesh.

Female names are religiously irrelevant and can be anything. Most American Jewish girls/women have a Hebrew or Yiddish name taken from a deceased family member in addition to a civil name which could be anything (again shying away from names which are overtly Christian like Mercedes).

Secular Israelis have largely jettisoned the traditional biblical names deemed acceptable as shem kodesh and replaced them with short names that come from words, usually with nature meanings (like Tal 'dew'). I frankly don't know if these names are acceptable for use in marriage contracts and divorces--which are controlled by an ultra Orthodox rabbinate. I do know that many Jews, including many from the US, cannot be married in Israel because they are not certified by the rabbinate and have to go to Cyprus or elsewhere to be married. Because they live in a Hebrew-speaking Jewish state Israelis do not have a need for double names.

I just read a novel about the ladies who are involved with the ladies auxiliary of a Modern Orthodox synagogue in Memphis. Interestingly names are used to make a thematic point about the shift to the right in the Modern Orthodox movement. The adult women have names like Arlene, Doreen, Marilynne, Jocelyn, and Mimi and their husbands names like Irving, and we never hear their Hebrew or Yiddish names which they almost certainly have. The younger generation (from 20s to toddlers) have names like Yocheved, Yosef, Yechiel, Hadassah, Shira, Ilana, and Chani and use these names as their civil names as well as their religious names. One of the young adult daughters has moved from Memphis to Monsey NJ (an ultra orthodox enclave) and stopped using her civil name Anna Beth in favor of Chana Bayla. The older generations went to public school and mixed with non-Orthodox Jews as well as the larger community, while the younger generation attends a Torah Academy day school and has little contact with the larger society, thus not needing civil names to blend in.

An interesting point I discovered--during the Middle Ages Jews. particularly merchants, living in Muslim lands at times took the name Mohammed as their shem kinnui. That, of course, would never happen today.

A little addition to Miriam's excellent explanation of Jewish names - my shem kinnui is Keren - Hebrew, biblical, popular in modern day Israel and yet my shem kodesh is Gitel - old-fashioned, Yiddish BUT the name of my great-grandmother (who was Katie/Gitel). I was very tempted to ditch Gitel when I got married, but felt it was wrong.

Of the five grandchildren in the next generation of our family all but one have the same name as their shem kinnui and shem kodesh.

Nora: I agree with others about Avon, but I think Leon is fine--even great! I know a Liam, about 8 years old, and when I first asked his name, I thought his mother said Leon. I guess I see it as just as current.

Bethany: Is your sister-in-law currently expecting? If not, I would definitely wait until she is. She might change her mind completely by then. A subtle way to push her in other directions might be to find other names with usable English/Spanish equivalents.

Oh, Keren, you were so right not to ditch Gitel. Why ditch it? Your shem kodesh is only used in restricted contexts, and one of the fundamental pillars of Judaism is the linkage of the generations. In my family in America I am the only one whose shem kodesh and shem kinnui are the same (obviously spelled in two different alphabets, but otherwise the same).

In their shtetl all of my father's family had only the shem kodesh. Being isolated from larger society they didn't need Slavic names. When they arrived at Ellis Island they gave their shem kodesh, albeit in Yiddish nickname form. My grandfather's name was written as Schlaime (for Schlomo), my grandmother's as Civie for Tzivya, and my Uncle Jack's as Jankel for Ya'akov. My great-uncle's name was written as Srul (Yisroel), but all his life in America he went as Eli. I haven't figured that out yet.

I have been much less successful tracing my mother's family, since her surname was Becker (sometimes spelled Baker or Bakker), and there are tons of people with various backgrounds with those names. I was named for my mother's father who was called Meyer Wolf. That is obviously a shem kinnui since the names are German, and I don't know his shem kodesh (maybe Meir Benyamine?). I have located my mother's family in the 1910 and 1920 census records, and got some surprises. My grandmother went by Cecilia as far as I knew, but in one record she is called Selma. My mother had an older sister who died as a toddler before my mother was born. I was told her name was Anna, but the census says Sophie.

Looking at the various census and immigration records raised the question for me. How did my grandparents come up with the civil names for their children? The children were born shortly after they immigrated, and my grandparents were never entirely comfortable in English. My father was always Eliyahu (Ellie for short) at home--how did my grandparents come up with Edward? I wonder if my Uncle Jack, who was a schoolboy when my father and their younger sisters were born, chose the English names. My great-aunt Tante Zlata was Jennie in her obituary. Where did Jennie come from? My mother's older sisters were Blanche and Mildred. Who picked those winners? Cousin Rookie turned out to be Rosaline. I always thought her shem kodesh was Rochel (which it probably was), and her shem kinnui Rachel which it clearly wasn't. Where did Tante Chassie ever even hear of Rosaline? I didn't think to ask such questions when the people who knew were alive. Do any of you with relatively recent immigration in your families know how the adults with little English came up with the names for their American-born or Americanized children?

I'm not a fan of having siblings pick names but perhaps it's because I wish I had more children so I could have more fun naming them. Also, I know some not-so-good examples of this...Mindy (when Mork and Mindy was on), Harold (because of the alliteration?), Crystal (I just think that name needs to be retired), and a gal named after her sister's two best friends (V@nessa T@mika).

Miriam, I found your comment about immigrant names fascinating because I've often wondered about the same generation in mine. For example, was my great-grandmother is listed as Bessie on her marriage license, which is how I knew her. But was that short for Elizabeth, or was Bessie her given name, or was it used as an English form of a Yiddish name? People seem to be listed differently in different records, and it's not really clear how to define a 'legal' name when so many were changed at various times.

In my family the Hebrew/Yiddish names seem to have yielded to the secular ones fairly early, even for home use. I've actually had to choose Hebrew names to use for those grandparents who have passed away, since no one seems to know what theirs actually were.

Tirzah,

I disagree that Timmy, Jimmy, Bobby, etc. are in any way comparable to Candy and Dolly. The former are shortened versions of longer names, sometimes (perhaps increasingly in some areas of the world) bestowed as names in of themselves. As I mentioned with Charlie, Molly, etc, I personally find such names' birth certificate-use regrettable (for flexibility purposes) but only from an NE perspective, not from within a broader social critique.

Regardless of Dolly or Candy's original derivation (e.g. from Candace), they are chiefly associated with (a) a child's toy and (b) a food that is frequently associated with children (e.g. "like a kid in a candy store" and "taking candy from a baby." Many people bewtoe these names precisely to make the link to dolls and candy. Given the historical and, in some mileus, current, infantilization of people of female sex or gender, I find it most unfortunate that this social preference be memorialized in given, birth certifcate names, as well.

As for Junior, I was unaware that this name was widely bestowed formally and listed on the birth certificate in the way that Dolly and Candy and Sweetie (oh, yes, indeed) are. It is my understanding that "Junior" is usually a nickname bestowed on men who have been named after their father's, and who have a "Jr" or "II" affixed to the end of their name.

Bestow

Fathers

and all other typos corrected with the wave of my wand!

Uppy Ear-I have had a thought about your male form of Eleanor. Earier, Bill thought of using the initials O and N and I then mentioned some N names. Well, tonight I was thinking, Neal/Neil could be a bit of an anagram for Elan/Elin and thus but a very subtle way for you to connect if you don't find anything else that suits you. There is also Ron instead of Don. You might also like to play around further with some of your other names to make some new ones. Have fun!

Hey all,

The comments about siblings naming siblings have been hilarious! Pizza, Broccoli, J0hn Sco++ T-b0+... priceless. Our daughter called the baby Onion today instead of Tomato, so it appears she is not as steadfast in her preferences as we thought!

I can appreciate wanting a child's name to reflect their cultural heritage. As a person who lives far away from her family and place of birth, it was important for me to give my daughter a name that was reflective of her heritage as a way of grounding her culturally. I also wanted a name that could be easily pronounced by my relatives-- particularly those who don't speak English well. We settled on Lucia (Loo-SEE-ah), which has worked out perfectly. We are trying to use the same criteria in chosing a name for our second child, due end of March.

Nora-- Yay for Sylvie! I love this name-- it's sweet but not precious, and I think it will age well. As for middle names, what about:

Sylvie Jane
Sylvie Dominique
Sylvie Juliette
Sylvie Francesca
Sylvie Lorelei
Sylvie Catherine

To me, Sylvie is a decidedly French name-- so I like the idea of a French middle name, like Dominique or Juliette. There is also Sylvie Avonlea, which has a nice flow, and captures your literary reference. Leif is a wonderful name but I agree that the consecutive /f/ sounds make it a difficult choice.

And, sorry to say, the name Clarice, while lovely, is absolutely linked to SOTL in my mind. But my problem is not with Hannibal the Cannibal, but more with Buffalo Bill (the serial killer in the film)-- talk about creepy!!

Off-topic, but fun:

Just got a library book on some of my favorite jazz musicians. Ever notice how many jazz musicians have pleasing, elegant, colorful names and/or nicknames?

Duke Ellington was really "Edward Kennedy Ellington"

Billie Holiday was "Eleanora Fagon Holiday"

Dizzy Gillespie was "John Birks Gillespie"

Anita O'Day was born "Anita Belle Colton" She got the O'Day from "oday", the pig latin term for money (dough). And it's perfect-- the name Anita O'Day lilts and swings just like her jazz singing!

Charlie "Yardbird" Parker

Django Reinhardt was a French-speaking Gypsy whose real name was Jean Baptiste Reinhardt. His mother was the one who nicknamed him "Django".

Chick Corea was born Armando Anthony Corea

Chet Baker was Chesney Henry Baker

And way back when we were discussing the name "Sarah" and its nicknames, I had forgotten to mention that legendary jazz singer Sarah Vaughan's nickname was "Sassy".

And that's just scratching the surface...

Eastern Betty,

According to the SSA, Junior has been in the top 1000 for over 100 years. In 2007, it was ranked 613th. Its peak was 134th in the 1920's.

I'm not saying it's the same as Candy or Dolly (which don't even rank these days). I said that the infantilization is "roughly equivalent."

Miriam,
Your comment about bullies on the playground not referencing Richardson cracked me up, but it also made me wonder about the name Pamela. I knew so many girls named Pamela growing up but have not run across one under the age of 30 since I was 30. Is it hopelessly dated? I can't account for the fact that Kimberly is still so popular when Pamela has fallen so quickly.

Easternbetty, I am going to disagree with you. One of the major figures in the early history of the United States was Dolley Madison, and she was Dolley, not Dorothy or Dorothea. I see nothing wrong with naming a child with Dolley Madison in mind. As for Sweetie, well, my mother's name (shem kodesh) was Sussel, that is, Sweetie, and my great-grandmother's name was Nissel ("Nutkin"). My sister's name is Sheine Liebe (pretty love). There is a long history in various languages of using terms of endearment, as well as flowers, fruits, gems, and animals (the gentle kind) as female names. If people want 'macho' names for daughters, well, there are Britomart and Bellatrix, but mostly these days people just go ahead and give their daughters male names, which I deplore much more than names like Dolly and Candy. To me giving girls boys' names is just reinforcing "male" as the default position, as if there is something "wrong" or "lesser" about being female.

Sarah Smile--

If you are interested, there are articles on the JewishGen website that give some guidance in dealing with the fact that a single Jewish individual can have several given names for various purposes. These articles also deal with the problems arising from transliterated surnames and surname mutability. Jews used patronyms (and occasionally matronyms) much later than others living in Europe (except for Icelanders who still use patronyms) and finally were forced by the civil authorities to take surnames. Often the civil authorities required Jews to take nasty surnames (anyone want to be Herr Scheisskopf?), and then at a later date the name would be changed to something nice like Pearlmutter or Bernstein. All of this makes tracing Jewish family records quite complicated.

Apropos of our conversation about Liam and Owen, a friend of mine told me today about a thirty-something acquaintance of hers named Decl@n Z!mmerman--an odd combination of Irish and German. Of course, Declan's mother (or paternal grandmother, or...) could very well be of Irish heritage, making the name not the odd combination it seems.

Miriam, as always I appreciate your insight into Jewish naming practices, especially as my husband is Jewish but not religious enough or interested in his heritage enough to want to talk to me much about them. I keep trying to find out what his Hebrew name is, but neither he nor his parents remember, and as I am not Jewish and we had an interfaith wedding and no ketubah, it didn't come up. His name is Daniel (after his uncle Dick), so his mom guesses it is a form of that--is Daniel the same in both Hebrew and English?

Interestingly, we recently saw a copy of his grandfather's birth certificate when we were at my father-in-law's house. My husband's grandfather was born in New York on the Lower East Side in the late nineteen-teens, I believe. I'd always heard his name was Irving, but the name on his birth certificate was Isidore. No one knows where Irving came from or when it was adopted.

And, even more exciting, we learned from the certificate that my husband's great-grandmother's maiden name was Simon--which is our preferred name for a future son. Now the name has a family connection we'd never even planned for, an added bonus to a name we both love.

Eo-You are the Nickname Queen. What an interesting tidbit you have posted. I was surprised at how fine their original names sounded but of course I bet they were "boring" to a jazz musician.

Coll-How wonderful to have made a family connection to the name you were already thinking of. What a precious gift your family has given you by sharing that information.

Also to Coll, Miriam and anyone else-I do quite a bit of genealogy myself. I belong to several online groups. If anyone would like some off-board help with locating genealogical info on their relatives, I would be happy to offer assistance and/or atleast try to point them in a direction of someone who might know something. If you would like to email me offline please put a BNW reference in the subject line and send to my screenname at AOL.com

"is Daniel the same in both Hebrew and English?"

Essentially yes. In Hebrew Daniel is spelled daled nun yod aleph lamed and is pronounced in three syllables with the accent on the third. A different possible name is Dan, one of the 12 sons of Jacob and therefore one of the 12 tribes. Those would be my first guesses, but it could be something else, especially if he was named after someone named Dick which could be Richard, and the Hebrew name could be something entirely different. Rather odd that his parents, even if they are non-observant and assimilated, don't remember the name they gave their son or the name borne by the brother of one of them.

If anyone is interested the list of what New Zealanders are naming their babies has been released (although I can't locate the full list on the Department of statistics website).

But the top 30 are:

Girls top 30
Sophie
Olivia
Ella
Isabella
Charlotte
Lily
Emma
Emily
Jessica
Grace
Hannah
Chloe
Ruby
Lucy
Ava
Amelia
Madison
Maia
Mia
Holly
Sophia
Zoe
Paige
Georgia
Kate
Brooke
Maddison
Samantha
Sienna
Isla

Boys top 30
Jack
James
William
Samuel
Joshua
Riley
Liam
Oliver
Benjamin
Daniel
Thomas
Jacob
Ethan
Jayden
Noah
Ryan
Lucas
Luke
Max
Hunter
Matthew
Lachlan
Alexander
Dylan
Connor
Blake
Tyler
Caleb
Charlie
George

Miriam - yes, that's why I hung onto Gitel. Honour to past generations etc. But it was always a strange name for my parents to have given me because my (living) grandmother was also a Katie/Gitel and she was not very happy with me being called Gitel.
Another friend of mine was also given Gitel as a shem kodesh - she is called Katie - and she hebraicized it to Tova. Which seemed a shame to me.

I was just wondering your opinions on these names.

Emma
Bree
Bailey
Brynne/Brynn
Bethany
Violet
Cara

Thanks to all who gave feedback on my naming questions! Many of you have confirmed my fears on constant mispronunciation of Avon, so sadly I think that one is out (or relegated to a middle name). And I'm quite sad to let Leif go but think we must due to the "F" last name.

Despite a few negative associations with Leon, I continue to think it's a strong name, classic but not common (possibly ready for a comeback? though we want to avoid top 50 names so that's not a swaying factor) that would work well for a child or adult. We/he could use the nn Leo if we want to. Thanks RobynT for agreeing this is a great name!

PrairieDawn - I love Sylvie Lorelei (actually a name my husband had liked as a first name!), and Sylvie Avonlea is pretty and intriguing since it would allow us to use two of our current top choices. BTW I also had Silas as a favorite boy's name, but my husband is on the fence...maybe I can sway him to reconsider.

Again, thanks to all! Luckily we still have several months to ponder.

"Here is another concern of mine that I'd like to share. There is a chance that the adopted child will be full or part-Hispanic (we are hoping). I'm half-Mexican and my DH is Caucasian. I felt that it seems more appropriate to name a Hispanic child with a Hispanic name, as a way to celebrate their culture/ethnicity. What are your views? Should I be coming up with a Hispanic option (from my family tree) in addition to our other choices for both sexes? Or does it matter?"

Penelope, I don't think it matters as so many American children of Hispanic ethnicity are given non-Hispanic names. Yet on the other hand, if the child is part-Hispanic you may want to choose a Spanish language name, maybe as the middle name, to acknowledge that heritage.

One of my sons (of Vietnamese ethnicity, adopted as a baby and given classic English first, middle and last names) is married to a woman from Ecuador (immigrated to the US with her family at about age 12). My DIL's large extended family speak predominantly Spanish when they're together (her parents speak only a little English), and they follow many customs from Ecuador. However, when it came to naming their two sons, my son and his wife chose English language first and middle names to go with their English surname. The names they chose are classic names -- Christopher and Alexander -- which have Spanish forms too, and the older boy is often called "Christo" by his parents. They wanted to use my DIL's father's name (Cesar) for the middle name of their second son but her parents were against that, saying it didn't sound right with their surname. They're expecting a third son later this month, and he will probably have the grandfather's middle name (Alberto) as his middle name (even though, again, the grandparents aren't totally in agreement). The boys are being raised bilingually, and I think that's more important than having Spanish names.

My DIL has teenage cousins, born in Ecuador, named Ingrid and Carolina, Jennifer and Michelle (all the "i's" are pronounced as "ee"). Her sister had a baby (fully Hispanic) last year and named him Adrian Caleb.