Not long ago, an interviewer quizzed me on camera about whether there's such a thing as a "bad" name: one that would mess up a kid's life. He wanted examples. Staring into the lens, I did my best to evade the topic, as I usually do. It's serious business, telling some real-life kid that his name is horrific. And yes, that includes children of celebrities, whose names are routinely put through the wringer of public scorn. I do my best to keep Baby Name Wizard a scorn-free zone.
But are there limits? Can a name be so terrible that it violates fundamental societal standards and demands condemnation? That question is raised by the big baby-naming story of the week. In Southern New Jersey, a supermarket bakery refused to make a personalized birthday cake for a young boy solely because of his name. To the outrage of the boy's parents, Heath and Deboarah Campbell, ShopRite determined that "Happy Birthday, Adolf Hitler!" was inappropriate to render in icing. (The Campbells got their cake at Wal-Mart instead.) The dispute made headlines around the world.
Question: what is remarkable about this story? Is it that a three-year-old American child is named after Hitler? Frankly, I don't think so. In this nation of 300 million people you can find every point of view, including Nazi sympathizers. (While the parents insisted that "a name's a name" and they chose it just because "wanted their children to have unique names," their lifestyle, including another child named JoyceLynn Aryan Nation, makes the situation pretty clear.) Then is the remarkable part that a store censored a birthday cake? Again, I think not. In fact, the same supermarket had turned down a previous order from the Campbells for a swastika cake. To me, the most fascinating part of the story is that the parents seem to expect public sympathy for their birthday cake plight, on the grounds that names should be above censure.
Mrs. Campell complained to a local newspaper reporter that "ShopRite can't even make a cake for a 3-year-old. That's sad." Mr. Campell said "Other kids get their cake. I get a hard time....It's not fair to my children." Both parents insisted they don't expect the names to cause their children any difficulties in life, saying "How can a name be offensive?"
Despite the Campbells' protestations, the mere fact of "namehood" doesn't magically render words inoffensive. If you named your child...er..."%#$@!," you'd have to be prepared to bake your own birthday cakes. Similarly, the names Adolf Hitler and Aryan Nation aren't just names, they're declarations of contempt for broad swaths of your fellow citizens. So yes, they can be offensive. I'll go a step further and suggest that the names disturb us not merely because of the opinions they represent, but because the parents bestowed those names on children who have no say in the matter. By choosing pariah names, the parents set their kids up for a lifetime of conflicts. Age three at the neighborhood ShopRite is likely only the beginning.
Thinking back on the filmmaker in search of "bad" names, it seems I could now give an easy answer: Adolf Hitler is a bad name. But that answer isn't just easy, it's facile; it's a cop-out. If names are "bad" because they're likely to cause children problems, where do you draw the line?
- At Adolf's sister with the innocuous first name and Aryan Nation middle name?
- At their other sister Honszlynn Hinler, apparently a "kreative" fantasia on the name of Nazi Heinrich Himmler?
- At the kind of names that economist David Figlio has found likeliest to get you left back in school?
- At a name that marks you as a foreigner or outsider in your community?
The extreme case everyone agrees on is fine and well. The tough part is inching in from that edge and still knowing where you stand.
The elusive "bad" name
12/18/2008, 10:21AM
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Comments
Re: Charlotte
I wouldn't worry too much about it becoming date-stamped. It's been in the top 1000 for over 100 years, and it was at its peak in the 1940s at #59. Personally, I don't associate it with the 1940s at all, nor do I associate it with any other decade, because it has been consistently popular. It's certainly popular now, but it didn't come out of obscurity to peak quickly and then die down quickly, which is generally what makes a name date-stamped. It's a beautiful name, I think you can use it without worry!
Thanks for the response, Aybee. I live in New England, where CHarlotte seems to be most popular, but I don't know any, either (and I'm a teacher). I suppose there's no way to tell if it will explode, like Sophia. Sigh. It makes me nervous!
To clarify, I'd rather go with a constantly popular name, like Elizabeth, than one that peaks sharply.
Thank you, Clementine and Eo. We have thoroughly explored the C names (we want that initial- long story), and have a handful of others, like Caroline and Clara, that we like O.K. But Charlotte is head and shoulders above the other options. I've examined every C name under the sun, it seems.
I tend to agree with you, Clementine- the map shows it as pretty consistent, with peaks and valleys, unlike Sophia.
Eo, Emily and Emma do come to mind as possible cautionary tales. I know we need to just go with it if we love it. It's hard picking a name for a human!
hey, if anyone can clarify why my comment circa 123 was disappeared, I'd appreciate it. I didn't save it, and I forget what content might have been offensive. b fraser 80 [at] yahoo [dot] ca is my generic email address (no spaces, obviously), just so this doesn't have to be opened again on here.
Thoughts for Mailee's sib-Boy names:
On my source of babynamewizard.com
Noelani-means heavenly mist*could be shortened to Noel
Leolani-equally could be shortened to Leo. It means Heavenly voice
Kale-pronounced Kah-lay is the Hawaiian form of Charles so something related to that would maybe work. You could always spell it this way but pronounce it Kale like the vegetable to get a less foreign sound.
Ieni-is Maori and means God is Gracious. It reminds me of Ian which is not of course Hawaiian but maybe if it were a close name that would work?
Henare-similarly it reminds me of Henry
Maybe if there was no Hawaiian name they liked they could make one. Such as Alan/Allen or Ian or Isaak that while not Hawaiian only uses letters in the Hawaiian alphabet.
Guest-Love the name Charlotte. Also like Chloe, Caroline (which is popular again around me), Cassidy, etc. C is a great letter with the names varying greatly in style. It seems you are going for a classic name that is not uber-popular (Sophia) or not too stuffy or date-stamped (Clara). As everyone always says "I want her to be able to be a lawyer/judge/teacher/mountain climber/etc." Charlotte has a cutesy yet Southern formal appeal. It think its a great choice.
Charlotte is lovely, particularly with the nickname Lottie. A less popular C name with a similar tone, to my ears, is Camilla. I like that Camilla can be nicknamed the boyish Cam or the very girly Milly, depending on the name-bearer's personality. I also knew a Camilla who went by Lilly.
I also love Cecily/Cecilia
zoerhenne- your suggestion of Noelani reminded me of a woman I met named Noeliné, (no-eh-lee-NAY) from Tahiti. I thought it was a pretty name. Does anyone know its origin? Does it spring from Noel?
I have a 14-year-old cousin named Charlotte who sometimes goes by Charley. Her siblings are Ashley, Emily, Martha, Christopher, Andrew and Megan.
Going back to the name Tess, somebody mentioned that it might work as a nickname for Elizabeth? I love Tess, but not Tessa so much. I unknowingly chose the name Sofia for my first child thinking it somewhat original seeing as how i knew no one with the name. Oh well. I do like Sofi and Tess tho, what do you think?
As far as nicknames go, my name is Elizabeth and i introduce myself as Elizabeth, but i am called Liz by anyone who knows me well. My sister is Kathryn but has always been called Katy, and my brother Joseph has always been called Joe. I come from a large family and have siblings named Reed, Rebecca, Helen and Michael but none of them really go by nicknames as much. I always thought that was kind of odd.
On a side note, some names i've come across are Richard Dangle who goes by Dick (a friend's neighbor) and Sunshine Burns (a friend who married into the name).
Oh, and can't forget about the lady in the pediatrician's office who refused to say her newborn son's name. Apparently her husband named him "Famous" behind her back. :)
Names in the paper today- 2 girls, aged 10...
Symph0nie and EmyIse
Any thoughts on how to say the 2nd one? I can't come up with anything attractive.
btw, I know 2 Charlottes. One is almost 20, one is 7 or 8. Love the name. Neither girl goes by a nn. Their sibs are Jacqueline and Madeleine, and Cathleen (Cathy) and Christopher (Chris).
Thanks for all the Mailee sibling suggestions.
I'll email them to the mom-to-be and try to get some feedback.
I do think they're looking for a girl's name as well, but they're more concerned about a boy's name as they never did agree on one last time.
On Charlotte: Our Henry would probably have been a Charlotte. Interestingly, if you look at name mapper the two names have a similar profile in that they are both quite popular but only in certain regions. I do have a history of picking trendy names (our older son is Jack), so yeah-Charlotte may be getting big! Also, I think it's quite popular in many of the countries that tend to be harbingers of the next big thing here.
I do think a "classic," name is in less danger of being date-stamped even if it gets popular,though. I think both Emily and Emma are overdone, but I wouldn't really call them date stamped the way I think names like Addison will be.
On the other hand, it's certainly true that while names like Amanda and Amy also have a long history they are probably date-stamped to the 70's/80's for most.
Honestly, though, it sounds like you and your husband are really in love with it. If it turns out to be crazy popular later at least your Charlotte will be on the leading edge.
I sometimes wish Jack wasn't so popular, but you know, I think if we had gone with something else I'd have been a little wistful whenever we met one-as crazy as that sounds!
I think Noelani is most often used for girls. I think most Hawaiian names are technically androgynous, but certain use patterns have developed.
hmmm...
i think it's kind of like college admissions. the top students ("good" names) are automatically accepted. the worst are easily dismissed. and then there are a bunch of students (names) that need case-by-case analysis. maybe there's a pretty bad student (name), but they are a great fit for that particular college, you know? etc.
probably people thing "bishop" is a terrible name. but we are down to that and "silas" and there is a decent chance that we'll go with the weird name in a couple of weeks when baby boy is born! fwiw, bishop is meanful to us, as we are climbers and some of the best bouldering in the country is in bishop, ca.
Julia: Love the college admissions analogy! about the names you're considering, fwiw, i think a lot of folks would not see silas as much less weird than bishop, so like everyone says, go with what you love!
Valerie-All the entries I find for Noelani list it as derived from Hawaiian noe meaning mist and lani meaning sky/heaven. On the other hand, Noeline is listed as deriving from Noel or Noelle (French) and thusly means Christmas. They are pronouncing it as No-ell-een but I suppose even with the alternate pronunciation your friend has it is still the same name.
Trish-The best pronunciation I could come up with is something like Em-EYE-EES. Sort of rhymes with Clarise/Clarice. Very different and original but I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
I know this is off topic but I thought of this when I mentioned the woman named "Carlin" earlier and forgot to post it...
I know George Carlin isn't everyone's cup of tea, but is anyone out there familiar with his bit "Guys named Todd?" It is of particular interest to NEs, I think,-- it is basically observation over changing naming trends from era to era(and Carlin's perception that guys named Eddie and Vinnie could, erm, "beat up" guys named Kyle and Todd). I know this was made years ago and wonder what today's version might be--- Matt and Brian vs. Jayden and Jackson?
zoerhenne- thanks, I suspected as much. I much prefer my friend's pronunciation though to NO-ell-een!
Re Charlotte, the 3 I know are ages 32, 16 and 3 months. So I don't think it's got a date stamp on it. It was one of the names on our girl list but we had a boy so it freed up the name for the friend who had a September baby, and I still love the name and even though it's popular I think it's beautiful.
Julia, if it was you who mentioned "Bishop" a while back, I still think it is a very interesting choice.
You will also have the option of using one of my favorite nicknames of all time: "Bix"!
Legendary jazz player Bix Beiderbecke popularized the jaunty name. Real name: Leon Bismarck Beiderbecke.
But to me "Bix" is just as plausible a nickname for "Bishop" as it is for "Bismarck"...
Just a thought!
That IS funny, Aybee. Other social observers who have made similar amusing comments about the trendiness of names in different generations include Calvin Trillin and Erma Bombeck. I think Erma did a hilarious thing bewailing the hopelessness of a name like "Erma"...
Aybee, that's funny about "Guys named Todd". I don't associate Todd with the other names like Kyle, Blaine etc. To me, Todd actually sounds quite tough, not soft. But perhaps that's because I have a cousin named Todd who definitely isn't soft.
Liz & Louka, I think Todd's a tough name too! As is Kyle, only because two boys by those names were the reason that we weren't allowed to have scissors or nap time in Kindergarten (very violent children!).
For those interested, Guys named Todd--
I thought it was a little profane (although funny) to link to, so I give you the examples Carlin gave:
"Soft" boys names: Todd, Blaire, Blake, Blaine, Tyler, Taylor, Jordan, Flynn, Cody, Dylan, Cameron, Tucker, Kyle
"Real" boys names: Eddie, Jackie, Johnny, Tommy, Bill,Danny, Larry, Phil, Nicky, Vinny, Tony
I don't actually find many of these "soft" names to be "soft"-- particularly-- (Tucker, Tyler, Jordan) but I am decades younger than Carlin. I think its a generational naming thing-- for instance two of his boy names Jackie and Nicky--are used mostly on girls today. Boy Jackie and Nickys would invariably be Jack and Nicholas today anyway. Ok, Im done now, just thought that was fun :)
Valerie-You're welcome. Your comment made me think of another story my mom told me about a woman in the hospital when I was born. The nurse asked the name and the parents said "NO AMY" rather than "NOT AMY", so the nurse took it as the childs name:Noami I believe is how it was spelled. A bit of a take-off on Naomi.
Aybee-I DO think Tucker, Blaine, Cooper, Jordan, and some others are "softer" names than say Nick, Tony, Mark, and Mike. There are many many many that are in the middle and could go either way depending on the personality of the child/adult. I think the dated "names that could make one get beat up" are names that imo sound "nerdy". Lester, Walter, Herman are some of them.
I'm amused at how many of the "real" boys names end in the "E" sound. That sounds childish and wimpy to me. (Eddie sounds wimpy, Ed sounds tough etc.)
That said, my son is a Timmy. It is the one variant of Timothy we swore we'd never call him, but at age 3 he is *quite* certain he is a Timmy. And for a guy who can't yet read to learn to tell the difference between the words "Tim", "Timmy" and "Timothy" and object to all but Timmy, I have to take his word for it.
Personally, I hope he outgrows it and becomes a Tim. But hey, its is his name.
Talk to me about the name "Alice."
You folks were so helpful back in late October with an analysis of our top three names: Alice, Margaret, and Laurel. (I was looking for something strong, classic, and smart.) But now our daughter is due to be born in just a few weeks, and we still haven't decided on a name.
My sister is a Stephenie Meyer fan and feels that the importance of the vampire character Alice in the "Twilight" series will cause a date-stamped spike in popularity. What do you think? I don't frequent any other baby-naming boards (maybe I should?), so I'm not sure what the rest of the world is thinking.
Also, do people see Alice as a gum-cracking blue-color name? I just think quirky and smart, no doubt influenced by Alice in Wonderland.
Julia- I quite like Bishop but am wondering if you are at all concerned about the religious slant?
NAR- No doubt Alice will spike due to Twilight, but I'm not sure it will see such a great increase that folks' previous connotations upon hearing the name will be replaced. I know mine won't. Alice has a solid place of its own already- quite the opposite of names like Cullen where Twilgiht is actually carving a path for the "new" name. I think you're safe. (On a side, I love Laurel!)
NAR-Since you asked, here are my comments on ALL your names.
Alice-Quirky, smart, and yes like Alice in Wonderland. However, I also think shy and demure as well as Alice from the TV show Alice. Although, it was b4 my time. Style-wise I think its similar to Beatrice. Old but new again.
Laurel-Fresh, used in the 1990's. Dark-haired, spunky. Smart, and tom-boyish. I knew a Laurel in college once.
Margaret-small, glasses, librarian/bookish type. Maggie and Meg have a different feel though so I guess it depends on if she'll be called Margaret or not. I hope I'm not offending anyone but I can't get the character from Dennis the Menace named Margaret out of my head.
And for the record, I know about Twilight but never read the books or seen the movie.
The George Carlin "soft" names sound very western to me. You know, Utah and all that. Adventurous rather than classic. It's very interesting. The "real" names sound very like stereotypical New York. Okay this is coming from someone who has been to New York exactly twice, for a total of perhaps 8 days total, but, you know, like My Cousin Vinny.
NAR: I love Alice. I think classic first, but once you mentioned that blue-collar gum-snapping thing, I could see that too. I think that could just mean it's versatile? I am doubtful about the effect of Twilight names, but... maybe I'm just out of it?
I love the name Alice. I am so out of it, I was totally unaware it's a Twilight name. My sincere hope is that by the time the fan base is having babies en masse, they'll have that "what was I thinking back then" attitude about it and leave the names alone.
No offense to any Twilight fans...
Alice was quite a popular name in the UK for babies about 10 years ago, doesn't seem so popular now. I think it's great - pretty, yet dignified and elegant too.
In Twilight though the character is (IMO) a bit irritating. I can't see her causing a big spike in popularity. Edward and Bella more likely. And how about Renesmee?
I don't think we're any more likely to see a spike in Alice due to Twilight than a spike in Harry due to (the astronomically more popular) Harry Potter. And if someone heard that you named your child Harry, they would not immediately assume you were a huge Potter-phile.
Alice reminds me more of Charlotte, which we just discussed, than of Sophia. Charlotte shows dips and valleys throughout the last century, so even if it's currently riding a trend of quaint-old-fashioned-prettiness, it was hardly an uncommon or outlandish name prior to 2008 and won't likely be associated so strongly with this decade. Alice has a similar trajectory--it was a top ten name at the start of the century.
Sophia, on the other hand, was never in the top 100 names even going back as far as 1880. So while it sounds old-fashioned, few people actually know anyone of an older generation who had the name (something Laura has talked about when analyzing name trends). I'm sure that many of us know Alices and Charlottes from many generations.
I think Margaret has a similar popularity trajectory. It's one of my favorite names, with so many great nickname options. Margaret on its own is so strong, powerful, and no-nonsense. But Maisie or Greta or Daisy are very sweet and feminine. Just my two cents.
Okay, I know someone with a really BAD name. I'm ashamed to be posting it because I feel like I'm gossiping behind her back. On the other hand, it's not like her name is a secret.
Here we go: Her name, first and last, is "Truly Boring." Ugh! It gets worse. Her maiden name was Golden. So she went from Truly Golden to Truly Boring. Why do that to yourself?!
BTW, she was named after the character "Truly Scrumpcious" in the moving Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Alright, I'm going back into the shadows now.
Another seasonal card doing double duty as a birth announcement: my friend is now the proud uncle of Clinton Nash LN. Come to think of it, Clinton fits in with several recent trends: two syllables ending in -n and a "western-ish" nickname Clint. OTOH I really haven't heard it mentioned. I am assuming that Nash is a family name of some sort--my friend is originally from Texas, so southern naming conventions may apply.
NAR:
I don't think Alice will become popular because of Twilight.. but I think it may become popular because Antique names are so in. Babies in our friends circles are 2 Lilly's, 2 Charlotte's, Evelyn, Isabelle. I think Alice would make a perfect sibling sister set to these name listed.
If you are looking more for an offbeat classic I would say go for Laurel. For some reason I just don't see it becoming popular at all, yet it would fit in well with other trendy girls names.
Margaret is also nice, nms but there are alot of nice nicknames like Meg, Maggie. I think Margaret is the type of name that you have a nickname back up plan for. I know quite a few Margaret's ... all adults and they all seem to go by Margie..which is nms at all.
All the talk of Twilight (which I have not and do not plan to see) reminds me of twins I know...
Tw!light Gl0ry and D@ybreak D@wning
NAR -- I read Alice as spunky rather than blue collar, and while I don't know the Twilight series, I can't imagine it influencing a name like Alice unduly. I agree with the idea that its steady popularity immunizes it against trends somewhat.
Margaret is my first choice, though, because it's incredibly versatile. So many great nns and then a nice formal name to fall back on, too. I know two adult Margarets who both go by their full names. It feels like a name that almost anyone could inhabit because of all the nn possibilities.
Laurel is nms, but I agree with the comment about it fitting in with current trends while not getting trendy itself. I think that's exactly right.
Update: For those of you who weighed in with name possibilities for Ch4rles Fr4nklin's soon-to-be-born brother, it would seem the names that are most seriously being considered for Charlie's sib are H3nry Emm3tt or Br0drick Emm3tt.
No baby yet, though, so there's time to make additional suggestions. Names that were considered by eliminated include: Thom4s, Tib0lt, M3rrill, and M4yer. Although it's possible they're still considering some of these.
NAR- Alice was my grandmother's name, and it would fit in very nicely where I live. I don't expect it will spike due to Twilight, but like others have said, it may rise just due to the popularity now of "older" names.
Keren-Renesmee?? Is that a bit of a smushed sounding Renee-is-me?? Eww!
Double eww Ashamed! and Jessica-Truly interesting!
Miriam-You missed a trend or carefully avoided it: Clinton-currently popular/famous persons name. Much better than H**r. 4 trends in one name, is that a record??
Amy3-Out of those 2, I pick Br0derick.
Zoerhenne--
I have a feeling that these parents were more likely to have Clint Eastwood in mind than the couple whose surname you refer to. It is also possible (I don't know for sure) that Clinton is a family name.
NAR: I don't think that anyone who meets a baby Alice will automatically think of Twilight, but I do think the name will get more and more popular.
I think Twilights main audience, $70 million worth of teenage girls, are going to be parents in a few years, and like many pop culture phenoms (Little House on the Prarie, Friends, etc) the Cullen clan will influence a new crop of little Alice's, Esme's, Carlisle's, Rosalie's, etc.
As a NE, the names of the characters were my favorite part of the series. Gorgeous turn-of-the-century stunners that are not yet over used (execpt Bella).
Having stated all of the above, I think all your names are beautiful, classic, and not mainstream. I think that may change in a few years if you do choose Alice.
Sib set:
Chance (b)10, Jayden (g)5, Ocean (g)2, and
Story (b)3 mos.
This is a Jewish Persian family.
Oddly enough, the only Persian Jew I know also has a little boy named Jayden (sister Talia).
Zoerhenne - Renesmee, yes, a hideous smushed up Renee and Esme. The author says on her website (you can see I'm far too into these books for my age!) that she isn't into creative names herself but it was right for the character.
Alice - I have loved this name for a long time. I think it is a sturdy well-loved classic that isn't overused. I think it has enough different famous folks with the name that you can be anything you want to be.
I can say my high school students have done nothing but speak of Twillight this semester. OK, let's be honest, the girls have. (One loaned me the first book to read over our Winter Break). Even if Alice gets a spike from this book, your Alice will be ahead of the curve. These girls aren't going to have many babies for a few years yet. (I hope!)
FWIW, I love Margaret too. Laurel is nms. As a Chemistry teacher, it is too much like lauryl, a chemistry term. (Flip over your soap, shampoo etc. you'll probably see sodium lauryl sulfate). I have often thought it would be funny to name a pair of pets - like fish - Ethyl and Lauryl (as a chemistry joke...see it's funny...right???)
"Alice" and its French medieval variant, "Alys" have survived centuries of assault by popular culture, and still sound fresh and viable.
I briefly went through a period of not liking it merely because the "a lice" (louse?) creeped me out a bit! But that is one of those silly quirks that one must rise above. "Alice" is such a radiant classic.
Personally, I think it's a sad reflection that these adolescents' first association is not with the Lewis Carroll classic!
"Alison/Allison", although once a fairly old French/Scottish variant, has taken a real beating due to the sudden-use craze of a few decades back. Amazing how that works, isn't it? Back in the Eighties, some authorities were even suggesting that it had replaced "Alice".
Indeed, some people, upon hearing the name Alice, will mis-hear it as Alison, but that should fade quickly as the name Alison recedes more and more...
I know a young teenage Alice whose sibs are James and Emily...
Megan W-Those sib names would be amusing.
Miriam-Clint Eastwood hadn't immediately come to mind. I did think of the family surname possibilty but still thought the name so unique with 4 trend characteristics.
Keren-I find it tough to read a book when I trip over the character's name every time. Who was the writer here, was it you?
Ethyl and Lauryl - hehehehe, I might have to steal that one from you. Very cute.
I am surprised to see Story on a little boy. I know an about 5 year old girl named Story - I thought it was odd, but it definitely seemed girly to me.
I haven't read others' replies, but I seriously doubt Charlotte will be date stamped. It's a name with a strong history, but never "the" name. Trendy,out of nowhere names carry date stamps, not names with history. They might become popular again, but don't scream "I was born in the 2000s."
Charlotte has a strong connotation for me due to two kiddie lit books - "Charlotte's Web" and "True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle". It says strong, intelligent, giving to me.
Megan W - yes, I like that. I've also thought of 2 very identical animals called Pair-a-Ben (paraban).
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