The Baby Name Wizard

Long time lurker here, finally posting a comment. I just wanted to say that mixing ethnicities is "legitimate" too. My own son has a Spanish/Italian first name, my (very Anglo) last name as a middle name, and his father's (Argentine)Italian last name. In other words, his name is as stodgy and traditional as it possibly could be, given his family heritage. But I think it also would have been ok to give him a name from another tradition, as long as I had some kind of reason for doing so (such as liking the name). This kind of diversity and freedom, in my view, is what makes American culture so wonderful. I love reading this blog and all the wonderful comments. It's a great community!

Is that name Beetlejuice ? That cracks me up!

I think mixing ethnicities with names can work within the right context. I think a family like Sybil's where there is a mixture of cultures is the perfect example of how these kinds of names can work.

It also seems that it can work if the person giving the name truly understands the pronunciation, significance, spelling etc. in the original culture of the name.

Here is the link to my own personal list of names for baby #3 if anyone is interested. http://www.babynames.com/namelist/9615022

As I've said before, if your last name is say Chang, you are really narrowing your options if you only want an ethnically Chinese first name.

I think we concluded that there is *one* Japanese name in the top 1000. Are there *any* Chinese names?

In view of this, I say go for it Francesca Yamamoto and Fionna Wong!

I think as long as the names sound good together (although that's awfully subjective!), there's probably no reason not to use a mix. There are additional considerations (cultural sensitivity, knowledge of pronunciation and meaning, etc.) that would occur to some, but not to all, prospective namers.

In the same way we've discussed people bestowing a name on a child with no knowledge of its meaning, there will be loads of people who will choose an ethnic mix just because they like it and for no other reason. While NEs might prefer everyone to consider all the nuances of a name before giving it, doing that wouldn't cross a lot of people's minds.

Anyone who is Chinese (or many other far east nationalities) will have a hard time picking an ethnically correct name that English speakers can pronounce/recognize. I work with a number of people from the far east and a number of them use an English name for a nickname to avoid the constant confusion they're confronted with when using their given name. This necessitates ethnicity mixing in names to some degree.

I was thinking of knowing the meaning of a name in the sense of a name like Cohen. I think it would be important to know that this is a Jewish priestly title - that might sway people's choice to use it. I'm not sure that you need to know the "baby name book definition" of the name.

It's becoming so hard anymore to even identify what many American's true ethnicity is anyway. Myself? I'm a quarter-Japanese, half-German, quarter Scandinavian girl whose married last name is British.

I say choose a name that you like regardless of ethnicity.

I fully agree with the website you cited. I despise "creatively" spelled names as well as made-up names. I honestly wish that America had naming conventions, as many European countries do. I am less worried about ethnically intermixing names. I'm Polish with an Irish name, but it suits me well. However, giving girls male names (such as Ryan, Aubrey, Rylan, etc.) bothers me a great deal, as do made-up names like "LaKwanda" and "Marlibelle", misspellings like "Toenee", "Deziray", "Kamryn" and "Danyell". It pegs both the parent and their child as unintelligent and low-class. Both parties deserve better.

I have been thinking about this a lot recently. In part because of the discussions on this board, but also as part of a wider discussion on cultural identity here in Australia. How do you define what it means to be a modern Australian with regard to our multicultural community? I am supposing that the Australian context of these discussions is somewhat relevant for an American audience.

My migrant heritage to Australia includes English, Welsh, Scottish, NZ/Maori, and French genes. But first and foremost I am Australian and the cultural diersity of Australia is much wider. Certainly being Australian means much more than white anglo - in spite of the White Austalia Policy of last century, in spite of our last prime minister, and in spite of what is portrayed on TV soaps "Neighbours" and "Home and Away".

If I was going to choose a name that truly reflected being Australian I would have to include Greek, Italian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian, Lebanese and Aborignial names to go with my anglo surname.

I really dislike the use of the word "legitimate" when one is discussing baby names in an English-speaking context in the first place. In English speaking cultures, it is perfectly legal to give your child any first name you wish, as long as it is spelled out in the letters of the Roman alphabet. So there is really no such thing as an "illegitimate" name -- not to mention that it seems rude to use the word "illegitimate" about babies' names because of the other connotations of that word in regard to births and babies.

Names have been crossing ethnic and cultural boundaries for centuries. If people in England limited themselves to names that have origins in Old English, they certainly wouldn't be using the huge majority of names that are in use there today. The same goes for any European culture; most Old Testament names would be "out" because they are from ancient Hebrew.

And sorry, Caitie, but there is no empirical evidence that people who give their children the names that bother you are less intelligent than average. Just because people don't share your own tastes in naming does not make them unintelligent. And why is it that we no longer accept racism as being OK but still think it's fine to disrespect other persons because they come from a different social class than we do? Children from all class backgrounds deserve better.

My daughter has a Norse first name, an Italian middle name and a Welsh surname, and I think the combination makes a wonderfully American name. This is a melting pot culture, so I don't understand why people get worried about the first name "matching" the last name.

Caitee, you mention that your first name is Irish, so I assume that it is actually Caitlin. Do you pronounce it "Kathleen", or do you pronounce it "Kate-lynn"? Do you know that "Kathleen" is the proper pronunciation? If you pronounce it "Kate-Lynn", does that mean you are unintelligent?

It really bothers me when people start tossing phrases like "low class" about.

Thanks CKE for your thoughts on this matter! I hadn't consided how various influxes of different races during English/European history had affected the way the subsequent communities chose names. I suppose it is similar to what is going on now in countries where there are large and diverse multicultural populations.

Thanks for your comments, Cleveland Kent Evans & Valerie. Well said!

I have to agree with cvs - I was thinking I can't believe that Caitie has an issue with Kamryn and not with her own name. Caitie spelled that way is outrageous. Not unintelligent or low-class just a strange choice of name to be pointing fingers and a name as common as Kamryn. I think people should be able to spell their name anyway they want to - don't point fingers!

Now, on topic. I think that you should choose a name because you love it. Choose thinks that don't fit your ethnicity, religion, nationality - heck spell it crazy if you want. Just realize that there are going to be folks out there that judge your decision so LOVE it and make sure you are confident enough to explain why your child is named as such.

I have been thinking about this in a related way recently. Having a very familiar or common surname makes almost any first name sound good to my ear. Any long, non-English origin surname matched with a different ethnicity tends to be more jarring, particularly if it isn't familiar.

Shanikwa Jones (not my choice, but sounds OK)
Shanikwa Cammereri (sounds awkward to my ear)

Gianna Smith, Gianna Lee (again, sort of fine)
Gianna Sadowski (a bit of a culture clash)

My ear has grown very accustomed to Western first names matched with Asian last names. But, many of the Asians I have known who've adopted Western names have fairly short last names.

I suppose I am a "victim" of name appropriation. Our heritage is Arabic (Christian), and Arabic names have been wildly popular in the States since the 60s, thanks to the Black Power movement. No one bats an eye anymore at "Tareeq Jones" or "Kareem Jackson" or "Aquilah Dean." When we name our kids, Arabic names will probably paint them as belonging to a different culture than our own. French names (Lebanese ppl looooove French names) actually pose a similar quandry: many, like Antoine, have been appropriated by the African-American population.

Bottom line: I've found it frustrating that our names have NOT stayed restricted to our ethnic group... I'm all for the melting pot, but at the same time most parents give names that are specific to their cultural background because we want our kids to identify with that background.

I have a friend who is 100% Italian - both parents are immigrants. Her husband has an Irish surname. (For this example, let's say the surname is Murphy.) She named her daughters Kelly Anne Murphy and Shannon Marie Murphy.

I find it weird that she chose first names that are so conspicuously Irish-American. It's as though their Italian heritage has been hidden. Would it have been so terrible to have given them names like Anna or Sophia or Cecilia or Gianna?

This is actually something I've spent a lot of time pondering, because one of my personal naming rules has always been "no ethnically inappropriate names." So, if I didn't marry someone who was French, Russian, or Italian (etc.) names that are blatantly belonging to those language groups would be out. But when I think about what that really means, it doesn't make a lot of sense. For example, many girls names don't seem as tied to their linguistic origins as boys names. (E.g. Nicole doesn't seem French, but Pierre does.)

I'm personally a classic American mutt. I'm about 1/2 Mexican (with a heavy dose of German), 1/2 misc. northern European (that side has been here so long that drops of blood aren't worth counting). I probably will end up with kids who are an even bigger mismash. I want to give them names that are a lot of things (beautiful, timeless, rooted), but I still want to be true to who I, my future husband, and, because of that, my future children are. And if that is not blatantly ethnic, I still probably wouldn't go with really ethnic names. (Sorta ethnic names may another story!) As a result, my pets get crazy foreign names I most likely won't bestow on kids.

For other people, I don't really have an issue with people using ethnically mismatched names, so long as the sound flow still is ok to my ear (and even regardless of actual ethnicity). I like the idea that we Americans are a melting pot and our names should reflect that -- in whatever way the parents choose.

Before people jump to heavily on Caitie on her 'low-class' comment - the freakanomics book had a chapter where Misspelled, or non-standard spellings were shown to be more prevalent in children with parents with less than 12 years of education. And elitist (and racist) prejudices showed in a study done sending out more or less identical resumes with different names. Caitie's view reflects poorly on her, but its a common view that a child will have to put up with.
Personally I have a hard time with the creative spelling movement because I feel it complicates a kid's life, especially when a name is in common usage with one accepted spelling. That being said I don't have a problem with ethnically diverse or made-up names, I named my daughter Aravis, knowing full well that she will spell her name every time she meets someone. She'll survive, as I did, without much permanent damage.

Immigrant Americans from non-English speaking countries who kept their original names were already mixing up when they started giving their children traditional "American" (which is to say, mostly English) first names.

A John (instead of Jan) Warshowski or a Mary (not Maria) Alberoni could be seen as paving the way for a Sean Messerschmidt and a Siobhan LeBlanc. In a melting pot culture such trends are inevitable.

Of course, married women who took on their husband's family name also helped attune the American ear to cross-cutural naming. If a married woman was Hong Wei O'Toole, well, it might raise a smile--or an eyebrow--but it was considered a legitimate name, one that properly followed custom. (Nowadays, of course, Hong Wei Lee (or Lee Hong Wei) would have the option of marrying Ryan O'Toole and keeping her birth name, and some might advise her to do just that).

But the point is, blends are inevitable. I once had neighbors whose last name was--let us say--Donovan, and whose son was "appropriately" named "Sean," which didn't erase the fact that his mother was Jewish and he was being raised in that tradition.

Caitie's comments are painful and elitist. I'm guessing that she has a son with a name that has "crossed over" to the girls and she now has a bad case of sour grapes. For what it's worth, the most highly educated and successful families in my area of Boston have daughters with names like Finley, Avery and Quinn, along with the traditional favorites Caroline, Elizabeth and Anna.

Lisa: I am 75% Italian and I did not even consider using Italian names for my daughters. The reason was simple for me: I don't really identify with that ancestry at all. I'm not close with my Italian relatives (it does happen, despite what movies and tv show you!) nor do I revel in Italian culture. Perhaps your friend felt the same?

I should have elaborated a bit more on that last point: a mixed name does not necessarily suggest an abandonment of one's heritage(s), and in English speaking countries especially, you cannot assume that an apparently "ethnically appropriate" name reflects the cultural tradition its bearer actually identifies with. "Sean Doherty" could actually have been 3/4 Jewish for that matter.

And even if "Sean Doherty" is 100% Irish doesn't mean he's particularly "Irish identified."

And I do know a little red-haired, freckle-faced 100% Irish girl named Isabella Mc-Irish-Last-Name. It is a bit strange, but to each their own!

Caitie: I agree! Seeing someone with a misspelled name immediately makes them believe that they (or specifically, their parents) were low class hicks. Looking at the honor roll at a local high school, you see names like Elizabeth and Christina and Meghan and Stephanie, but you don't see Kallee or Taylin or names like that.

Hey, to quote my grandfather, "de gustibus non est disbutantum." (To be fair, my grandfather didn't originate this phrase, he just used it to solve every argument.) Ultimately, you can't argue about taste. It's not a matter of timeless morality if you name your child Brylee or Karter or Guadalupe Chen. On the other hand, I don't understand you.
Nor do I really get my own parents who chose to name me Christine, but spell it "Kristine," an affectation one baby name book describes as "looks like a real Scandanavian name but isn't." Thanks Mom and Dad.
But hey, I'm sure it seemed like an elegant name to them. Just like Brylee.

Methinks Amanda Cooper and Caitie are the same person. Just stop and be kind.

On a more serious note:
Who is worse?
A. The (let's be honest) probably less-educated person who names his daughter Brylee because it sounds pretty?
or
B. People like us, who basically see naming a child like branding a line of clothing (I admit I'm one of you - I would no more give a daughter a newly popular name than I would name a store "Dress Barn" - oops, that one's taken.)?

It's just barely possible that B is worse.
Ok, I guess that post wasn't more serious.

I posted about this one or two posts ago, so I won't subject you to the full diatribe again.

Essentially, although my non-European background has a history of less-than-benign cultural appropriation by Westerners, I have come to believe, as CKE does, that the world's history of inter-cultural exchange has led us to the point where it is a bit ridiculous for a Nordic ancestry person to "allow" say, an ancient Hebrew or Roman name, but rule out an Asian Indian or West African one.

And you might recall my abiding fondness for the Soraya Jacobsens and Edith Ndeges of the naming world.

I do, however, dislike culturally/religiously-oblivious naming that would offend people of the same background as the name or that objectifies human beings. e.g. using tribal names (Ashanti) as given names.

But "illegitimate"? That's a very strange designation for names, one of the most mutable and dynamic of cultural forms.

Jennifer, your point is interesting in that Arabic--like Hebrew, English, Spanish, Sanskrit, and other "big" languages/cultures--has spread so far and wide to so many African, Asian, and even Eastern European societies that for several hundred years now, there have been non-ethnically Arab people with Arabic-language names. Do you dislike the use of Arabic (non-Muslim-specific; Christian as well) names by Somalis, north Indians, and Kenyans as well, or only for Anglophone baby-namers?

Amanda Cooper--Whoa. Not true. Maybe as a proportion. But I go to a top-30 high school (like, in the nation), and some of the smartest kids I know are named things like Cedaesha and Chanel. (Although my aunt teaches at a really ghetto middle school. A few years ago she had a student named Chestine. But there were also tons of Elizabeths, so it just goes to show.)

At my school there also used to be a girl, pure Asian, named Carmen Wong. I wasn't close enough with her to know why her parents (or she) made that choice (a lot of my schoolmates are immigrant or first gen, so maybe they just misperceived that it was a common American name or something), but I really like the sound of that. (Btw, RobynT--I think a conversation revolving around this general topic made you confuse Easternbetty's age with my own :).)

And, irrelevant, but:
http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/archive/2008/04/17/the-time-drain-that-is-baby-naming.aspx

And lest you all think I'm a total weirdo for going on this website as a single teenager with no prospects of becoming pregnant any time soon--I found the link through Nymbler. :) Hooray for my computer being fixed!

If mom and dad come from different ethnic backgrounds, using a first name to represent one and the last name to represent the other is a nice way to find balance and represent both ethnic traditions.

It is also a great way to honor relatives, friends, mentors or other special connections even if it doesn't match your ethnicity.

I was just thinking about the whole Asian-name thing that everyone seems very interested in. My grandmother had a Japanese name (which her family called her) and an American name (which everyone else called her). It worked really well for her, particularly becomes the names start with the same consonant and are similar in length.

This dual name identity valued both her American and her Japanese identity.

If the names in a high school only reflects one class of people it probably has an inherently biassed admissions system.

One person's misspelling is another person's attempt to be original and creative - to give a gift to their child. Picking a name from a wide range of influences, ethnic or otherwise, reflects imaination and broad-mindedness. What a shame people are so quick to judge others.

The names of my brother and myself - Keren and Alun probably looked creatively misspelt back in the 60s. But they jut reflected our ethnic and national inheritace - Jewish and Welsh.

This post is particularly interesting to me because I am half-Chinese, half-Filipino and am married to an American "mutt." My parents gave me a European first name (pretty typical for Filipinos). I also have a Chinese name that I only use when I'm in Asia.
I decided to keep my Chinese maiden name as a middle name but have taken my husband's German last name and thus, my name looks decidedly European. I believe that many who meet me after seeing my name are surprised that I am so obviously Asian. It almost seems like my name hides my real identity. This is both frustrating and amusing to me. I now include my maiden name in e-mails and correspondence.
I am pregnant with our first child and am having a really hard time coming up with a name. Because I share much more of my husband's Western culture than he does my Eastern culture, we are considering exclusively "Western" first names. Our agreement is that we will use my maiden name as a second middle name as a nod to my heritage. I do actually PREFER choosing a Western name to say, a Chinese one (there aren't specifically Filipino names), since Chinese names don't translate as well internationally. But I still struggle with the idea that my heritage is rapidly disappearing with this new generation, since my kids may not necessarily even LOOK that Asian.
Too add even MORE confusion, my husband and I live in Africa and like the idea of possibly including a Swahili or Arabic middle name.
Am I nuts? Am I going to confuse my poor child?
IS it inappropriate to name my Chinese-Filipino-German-English-Scottish child a name like Camilla or Isabella or Samira? Do most people really consider those names exclusively French/Italian/Arabic? Or could picking a "foreign" name simply be a nod to the international background and lifestyle we already have?

Whew, thanks for reading!

Hi Kate. I say if you love Camilla or Isabella or Samira as names for you child then go for it. It sounds like whatever you decide it will be a meaningful reference for you family and friends about who your child is and who you and your husband are/were when you named him. Nice!

Many names sound inappropriately ethnic (or just bizarre) to us now, but will eventually seem acceptable to most people. I know of a little Gianna who was born last year to a white, Anglo-saxon family friend. That name raised some eyebrows in my Italian-American family. But I predict Gianna in particular will soon sound no stranger to English-speakers than, say, Andrea does.

Regarding names that are completely made up, and not part of any cultural heritage, I have to say that I find them kind of ridiculous. I can accept that other people have different taste than I do, but a name like Brinderella just seems silly. However, again, Nevaeh (one of my own least favorite names) and its ilk will sound perfectly normal to everyone in 10 or 15 years.

It's unfair, though, to decide you can guess someone's income or education level based on his or her first name. The only conclusion I can come to when encountering someone with a name I dislike is that (in my opinion) that person's parents had bad taste--which has absolutely no bearing on how I interact with that person.

Ash - interesting you should make that comment about the name Nicole. I read a novel recently set in the 50s and 60s, where one of the (English) characters names his daughter Nicole. When it's discovered she has Downs Syndrome, he regrets giving her this exotic French name. I must admit I had to stop and think when I read this, as Nicole seemed a very normal 60s name to me.

Liz&Louka - re: Nicole, no, it wasn't really used in the UK in the 60s. Nicola, instead, was extremely popular in the 70s and 80s. Nicole, most older people will immediately think of a car advert featuring "Papa" and "Nicole" - it was a bit before my time, but I believe lovely young Nicole would get herself into a compromising situation and then be spotted by her Papa (or vice versa - or something completely different - I can't really remember. The point is, the advert would end with them exclaiming in their French accents: "Papa!" "Nicole!".) I've never actually met a Nicole in real life, although it's getting popular as a middle name.

As for "ethnic" names, even mixed up, I like them. Especially if there's a story behind it, but I don't have a huge problem with it if there's no relevant heritage, as long as the name is not being mispronounced. I think it's a bit of a shame not to pass on any names of your heritage, even as middle names. My mother "translated" her favourite names upon moving to England and starting a family, which I though was a shame because so much got lost in translation. Enrico, for example, has such a different feel to Henry - I was always glad I wasn't born a boy!

Despite how many times we've had this fascinating discussion, there are always new twists that make it fresh...

I also take an eclectic approach, and like that idea of names from divergent languages and traditions, esp. if those are meaningful to the namers. I was brought up short, though, by that woman on the reality show, "The Real Housewives of New York City".

She named her boy "Francois" even though she is from Kansas and her husband from Australia. Neither of them is French. Turns out their other toddler is "Johan". That is annoying too, but makes slightly more sense as their last name is "Van Kempen".

The only reason I can think that this is bothersome, is that the couple have such glaring social pretensions-- insisting on having French nannies, insisting that little Francois (despite his resistance) speak French at age three, etc. They seem to represent the worst in competitive, New Yorker, Yuppie-esque dogma that everything European and especially French, is superior...

When one of the more pragmatic mothers pointed out that the other pre-schoolers would wreak havoc with "Francois", and suggested a nickname, Mrs. Van Kempen balked. She finally conceded that perhaps something that sounded like "Frahnck" (not Frank!) might work...

This cited article just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It makes me squeamish to think that someone would consider a child's name to be "illegitimate" just because the parents made it up. I don't understand what the big deal is. We do not have to love every name that every parent has ever given their child. I actually don't like many names that my friends have given their children (including one with that "made up" feel to it), but I don't hold it against the parents because I understand that tastes differ. And I certainly don't hold it against the child! Likewise, I don't expect them to love my son's name. Caitie's (made up spelling!) suggestion that there should be naming conventions is ridiculous. Who would make up AND enforce these conventions, the federal government? State governments? Is that really a wise use of tax payer dollars?

As far as ethnically mixed names, don't we think that is inevitable with our ethnically mixed heritages? My husband and I happen to be white W.European mutts, but most of our friends are wonderful combinations of Italian, Jewish, Taiwanese and Guamanian (is Guamanian the correct word???), etc. I would pretty much expect ethnically mixed names from that lot!

When I taught middle school in the urban South a while back, the student names were a constant source of wonderment--very few names were even used twice in a population of 300.

But I'd never, ever think of them as spelled "wrong"--the right spelling of each kid's name is how it's spelled on his or her birth certificate, period. It may not be the traditional or expected spelling or easiest spelling, but it's the ONLY right spelling for him or her. It was my job to learn the spellings and pronunciations THEY used--regardless of what assumptions I brought through the door.

And that goes for other professions too. The best practice is to meet Brinderella with a readiness to discover who SHE is, not with judgment and prejudice. Because someday, young Condoleezza may be the Secretary of State, and young Barack may be on the national ballot for the office of President. Oh, wait, that someday is NOW.

Sushila O'Malley
Excellent points!!!

I think that ethnically mixed names can be lovely--if done "well", as Laura says. I find this especially appropriate if the names represent the child's diverse heritage (as in our case), or perhaps a combination of heritage and place of birth, etc.

But I do potentially have some problem with people picking obviously "ethnic" names that have nothing to do with their own heritage, personal experience, etc. On one hand, you can have the Europhile pretentious parents that Eo described (and yes, that does annoy me), and on the other hand, you can have people with little/no understanding of a culture appropriating its names as some sort of (imho, inappropriate) exotification of that culture. This can be legitimately offensive to people of that culture. For instance, Native Americans historically and to this day have, um, gotten the shaft in this country (so to speak), and they are not always pleased to see non-Natives take names like Lakota or Cherokee. First, those are tribes, not names--which can appear gratingly ignorant to some--and second, it seems a little too convenient/flippant to romanticize and exotify a culture that your ancestors *may* have helped to crush, and many of whose people are still living in stark poverty on reservations. I have similar reactions to people with no Asian connections whatsoever naming their kids Midori, or Parvati, or whatever because they "sound exotic" or, worst of all, something like Asia (Ayzhia, Aysia, etc.), China (Chyna, etc.). I truly don't see much in the way of good motives behind this sort of naming, and it bugs me.

My mother is 100% Persian and my parents chose a Persian first name for me to go with my Irish last name. Now that I am married, I have a Welsh last name. Yeah, I guess my name does sound a little weird and ethnically mixed, but I think it is fine if you are trying to honor the child's heritage.

Well said, Sushila O'Malley!

hyz, that sort of reminds me of a discussion on another board I witnessed. It's not really the same issue, but I'd be interested to see what any of you make of it. Somebody was furious at the idea of anglicising the spelling of Irish names in America. Her argument was that it was offensive to the culture of origin. I thought about it and found that I didn't agree, for the reasons that:

a) a name, historically, is not only its written form, but its spoken form, seeing as it's only recently that most people can read and write. If Chavonne and Siobhan make the same sound and are thought of as different spellings of the same name, is it not a positive to spell it so that it is always pronounced correctly, and not "See-obe-han"? If I were Irish, I'd be more upset about Caitlin being pronounced "Kate-Lyn" than being transcribed "Kathleen".

b) where do you draw the line? Presumably Kevin is OK,instead of Caomhin? It's normal for names to evolve as they pass over linguistic boundaries; that's how we have Katherine, Kathleen and Catalina. Should only Greeks be allowed to use any form of Katherine?

c) Isn't it a compliment if people are eager to use Irish names (although I suppose Chavonne isn't identifiably Irish to someone unfamiliar with Siobhan)?

The same person also considered it offensive to use foreign nicknames as first names for American children, e.g. Anita and Anya. This, too, had me a bit puzzled (I should say I'm not American so maybe there's a context I'm missing).

Like I said, it's not the same thing at all as people using the names of Native American tribes (I agree with hyz that it's not the most culturally sensitive practise). I'm just interested to see if anyone can throw a new perspective on this issue.

I find I am more sensitive (if that is the right word) to the ethic origin of names than many of my friends and acquaintances. My mother is Swedish and my father generic English/American mix. My wife is ethnically Mexican. She wanted to name our son Evan, which to me sounds very Irish. Why would we give our son such an Irish name when neither one of us is remotely Irish? She didn't think of Evan as Irish at all.

My wife's best friend is of Mexican extraction, too, and her husband has a Bolivian father and a mother who is Latin/Irish. Their kids are Ryan Evan (which ruled our Evan for us) and Conner Riley. No trace of Spanish, even though they are 3/4 Latin, and all Irish. When I asked, they said it did not even occur to them that the name were Irish, they just liked the names. So it goes.

Irish names are super hot these days, regardless of ethnicity. Thus our Jewish friends, who are proud and practicing Jews, with 2 sons ... Finnley and Patrick Friedman.

Of course people who name there kids Cooper (like our neighbors) are not aspiring to be barrel makers either.

It is a weird world we live in.

I certainly don't find changing of spellings to make them easier to pronounce *offensive*, but I do find them a bit irritating sometimes, if they have too much of a "hooked on fonix wurked fur mee" look to them. I guess it's a shifting standard--if a non-phonetic name has a somewhat established presence in the US, like Siobhan, then I'd prefer to see it "keep its roots" and stick with the traditional spelling. I mean, English is not an entirely phonetic language, and I'd expect the general public to be able to learn just a few more non-phonetic words to add to their lexicon. On the other hand, where a phonetic respelling has an established presence (i.e. Kevin), it doesn't bother me in the least. So, maybe one day a bunch of little Neevs (Niamhs) wouldn't bother me, but today they do. :shrug: Ashlees and Makaylas, on the other hand, will probably always bother me, since Ashley/Ashleigh and Michaela are firmly established, and there's nothing wrong with them to begin with.

(sorry if this is a repeat)

I certainly don't find changing of spellings to make them easier to pronounce *offensive*, but I do find them a bit irritating sometimes, if they have too much of a "hooked on fonix wurked fur mee" look to them. I guess it's a shifting standard--if a non-phonetic name has a somewhat established presence in the US, like Siobhan, then I'd prefer to see it "keep its roots" and stick with the traditional spelling. I mean, English is not an entirely phonetic language, and I'd expect the general public to be able to learn just a few more non-phonetic words to add to their lexicon. On the other hand, where a phonetic respelling has an established presence (i.e. Kevin), it doesn't bother me in the least. So, maybe one day a bunch of little Neevs (Niamhs) wouldn't bother me, but today they do. :shrug: Ashlees and Makaylas, on the other hand, will probably always bother me, since Ashley/Ashleigh and Michaela are firmly established, and there's nothing wrong with them to begin with.

AmyA -- you mentioned that you aren't American, which likely also explains your earlier comment that you don't know any real Nicoles, as I know tons! In fact, I recently hosted a bridal shower with about 15 guests, three of whom were Nicoles. And, interestingly, everyone pretty much proved the point earlier that Nicole doesn't seem French -- yet it is.

Which leads me to your more recent point, which is Where Do We Draw the Line? I agree with you that the individuals you discuss above are suffering a serious case of missing the point.

I grew up with a Scottish family. I believe the kids were born in the States (though the family actually moved back to the UK when we were in high school), but the parents were both pure Scots. Anyone would agree that the kids were "appropriately" given Scottish first names. And I looked on as every teacher, volunteer, etc. mangled those names until they got used to them. With that experience in mind, I have no problem at all with using a spelling that makes a name more manageable for a wider audience.

I also think a lot Irish names, like English names, have become so standard to the American ear that they don't even sound "foreign" to us anymore. Then again, America has also done a 180 on its opinion of the Irish in the last 100 years or so. Instead of detesting them, we love all things Irish (witness the spectacle that is St. Patrick's Day). While I'm all for erasing bigotry, perhaps that one is a bit over-the-top!

Hmm, I have one point to raise that no one else seems to have touched on: Whatever your cultural background, aren't your names AMERICAN?

Here where I am in the UK, the Brits joke with me about 'American names.' What they mean are last names for first names (Cooper, Kruczynski, Cohen, Kennedy) or the 'made up' names that some rude, thoughtless people call 'illegitimate' or 'low class' when really they are an individual personalised gift parents can give their lovely brand new baby. The appropriate mix of ethnic heritage has not a damn thing to do with what are internationally considered to be American names.

So if you have a 'culture clash' of a name, such as the Sean Messerschmidt or Siobhan LeBlanc someone mentioned, isn't that really just being American? And isn't that something to be proud of, not worried about? And isn't saying that someone's name is 'illegitimate' or 'culturally inappropriate' (which is not the same thing as being culturally insensitive; I agree with hyz's points on that) just racism under another name?

I have a French friend whose name is Soazig. However, because in France they do regulate the spellings of names, on all her legal documents her name is Soizic. Funny how this power is only enforced against people whose names are 'ethnic,' as hers is.

[Caitie, Amanda Cooper: judge not, lest your own stupid names be judged.]

I am sensitive to this because my unusual last name has always inspired people ask me about my ethnic background, for which my answer is 'American.' In Europe no one bats an eye. In America I am meant to go into my whole ethnic heritage; why care? It always surprises me that within America being American isn't enough!

I would like to say to Cleveland Kent Evans and Easternbetty how much I always enjoy reading their posts and the perspective they bring to this board.

I agree with the comments that although it is not "illegitimate" to name a child with a certain cultural slanted name if you are not of that culture, I do also agree it should probably sound OK to the ears so as not to receive looks and comments. I named my dd a fn + mn that are French in origin but I am not any part French. My dh's country of ancestry is Italy/Poland and mine is Poland/German/Switzerland. I chose the name mostly because I liked the sound of it. I did have other choices but they also were because I liked the names. I think people should choose what they like or if heritage is important to them then do that. However, I think the potential for craziness exists when you think you "have to" respect all cultural backgrounds your family associates with because then you get a child who is named Cherise Ursula Fionna Tamikwa Chang. That to me is silly.

BTW, I caught part of the "Real Housewives" show the other night. Part, because it was so ridiculous I couldn't stand it and turned it off. I think the whole family should get some serious help for their mental health problems. The episode I saw showed them looking in the paper for the society page to see if the lady had a picture or story about her as she had been to the opera. She did indeed find her picture/story and made a sad face that it was only the back of her that was pictured. She then commented that since she had been shown in the paper she now needed a new dress to wear to the next event. The dad also was showing "Francois" the paper and telling him about the opera and trying to get him to say something (I don't remember what). Francois was clearly NOT interested and just wanted to finish his Cheerios. My thought was WHY are they trying to be something they clearly are not? The pretentiousness (??) of the whole thing is clearly not beneficial to the boy's mental status. It doesn't matter what they decidedd to name their sons, but to try to name them a French sounding name and then pretend to BE a french socialite family is just absurd!!

C&C's mom-I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I did want to congratulate you on the new baby! How exciting!

I think C&C's mom alluded to the only consideration that should matter, which is knowing if the name has any particular meanings or associations. I can't remember if it was this board or another, but I remember a discussion where a mom was thinking about using the name Zion, mostly for the sound of it, if I'm recalling correctly.

I tend to be snobbish about names that seem made-up, but I've gotten much more tolerant since my older son started preschool. He has smart, funny, kind friends with a whole variety of names I'd never consider myself-Caysen, anyone? My own parents gave me a faux Irish name with an odd spelling to boot-Maegen, and I can tell you my dad would have had some colorful words for anyone who called it illegitimate. I do reserve the right to have an irrational dislike of Madisyn and Mykenzie, however.

Eo-I do know Exactly what you mean, but those people seem like they're on a totally different planet to me! Are New Yorkers really like that?

Take care, all!

Love this topic and will come back to post on it. It's been a long while since I've been around here.

Minor thread jack, though, because I have to run right now - - Does anyone know offhand where one of Laura's posts about the Aiden-type trends are? Someone I know was just talking about that and I wanted to reference something I read in the last 2 years and I don't have a clue where to start. If anyone knows without looking too hard, that would be great!

AmyA--looks like my first post got attributed to you! The board seems to be acting oddly this morning... But anyway, I realized I wanted to answer another part of your question too----
c) Isn't it a compliment if people are eager to use Irish names (although I suppose Chavonne isn't identifiably Irish to someone unfamiliar with Siobhan)?
----
I'd say it depends on WHY they're eager to use a specific cultural name. To go back to my Native American example, if people like the "name" Lakota because it sounds "wild and free" or something, but they haven't the first idea about the Lakota tribe, the history, and the current status of Lakota descendents in the US, then I think they're basing the name of their child on a stereotype which, although positive in its way, is based only loosely on fact and likely ignores a lot of unpleasant details.

Similarly, if someone picks an Indian name based solely on their fleeting interest in yoga (on reasoning that goes something like "yoga is cool, therefore the name Parvati is exotic and cool, plus I saw it in Harry Potter, I think I'll give it to my kid")--I don't know--it just seems reductivist and somehow disrespectful to me. On the other hand, I would have no problem with someone who had no Indian heritage, never been to India, etc., naming their kid Parvati if, say, that was their best friend's name, or they had a deep and studied respect for Indian culture or Hinduism. I guess I just want to see a little thought go into naming, especially when one is choosing a name outside of their own context.

And to answer Sarah's question about all these names being "American"--I'd say no, I don't think they are. The people who have the names are American, but I don't think that erases the etymology and history behind the names themselves. I am American with a German last name. My husband is American with a Korean name. Siobhan Messerschmidt taken as a whole may be a very "American" name, inasmuch as we are definitely a melting pot here, but I, for one, do care about the history behind the individual names. I think names tell a story that connects us to the past, and I wouldn't want to lose that.

Sarah:
I did not realize that giving last names as first names was particularly American.
What about giving the mother's maiden name as a middle name, ie, my own son, Charles Wallace LN. Wallace is my maiden name. I always assumed this was a really common, universal practice. Now I'm wondering if it is uniquely American - or Anglo-Saxon. Anyone know?

Howard make a point that resonates with me and that is that Irish names are wildly popular now. In my business, our most asked-for names are Irish, such as these Celtic names: Connor, Erin, Maeve, Dylan, and Deidre.

I think names of mixed ethnicity are fine. And I agree with Nikki that made-up names are never "illegitimate" - as long as the children are happy with them.

This is a great topic.

hyz:
"Names tell a story that connects us to the past."
That's true for a lot of names, and even true for some invented names. I know a girl named Tangine, because her mother craved Tangerines when she was pregnant. Other names are given because they sound nice and have loose emotional associations, like the association of "wild and free" with Lakota that you mentioned. The question really comes down to, does a story/name have to be true and personal to count? Or can the story of the Lakota tribe that people imagine to be true, the "wild and free" story, as opposed to the more complicated reality, be just as appropriate? It is a harder question to answer than it seems at first, because even the true stories are really reductions. How much "story" can one word really carry?
I wouldn't name a child Lakota, or Cohen, or Zion, but the people who do aren't necessarily culturally insensitive as they are focusing on a different part of those names' stories.

This touches on a couple of earlier posts about giving girls traditionally male names (i.e., Ryan, Hayden, Avery) or last names as given names, which were traditionally given to males (McKenzie, Madison, Carson). Regarldless of how you feel abou this trend, it is certainly a trend. So, do you think that parents will avoid giving their sons these more androgynous names for fear of giving their boy a name that's too feminine? And does that suggest a certain level of sexism, that parents are willing to give their daughters masculine sounding names, but would not want to give their son a more gender-neutral name, much less one that's fully crossed over to being perceived as feminine(Kelly comes to mind)?

When you combine an ethnic first name with an ethnic last name, it's sounds very, well, ethnic. My husband and I both loved the name "Moses" for a boy, but Moses Levine? Doesn't that sound like the kid should grow up wearing a beard and yarmulke? Considering my husband is completely secular in outlook, to saddle the kid with such strong associations seemed cruel to us, especially if we weren't such heavily identified Jews.

Kristine, you said:
"I wouldn't name a child Lakota, or Cohen, or Zion, but the people who do aren't necessarily culturally insensitive as they are focusing on a different part of those names' stories."
I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this. The Cohen discussion awhile back is a good example of this, I think--to some people, it's just a word, something they like the sound of, or some vague non-negative reference to Judaism. To others, it's a name loaded with historical significance, which pertains only to certain people, and it is most certainly not appropriate to give it to other people. Personally (like you, I imagine), I'd want to respect those with strong feelings about the name's historical context, and pick something for my child that's not so loaded and potentially offensive.

Some meanings are personal, like your Tangine example, but I think some meanings are fairly impossible to divorce from their public, historical context. One word CAN carry a lot of story (like Cohen, above, or Zion, etc.). And I think using a name based on a stereotype, or a very shallowly-based association, even if it's a generally positive one, has high potential to be offensive. AmyA asked if using a name of a certain culture isn't a compliment. Well, I'd say there are compliments and then there are compliments. A Taiwanese friend of mine was recently told (by his white boss) that "he's not a real minority because everyone knows Chinese people are smart and so he shouldn't have any problem getting hired." He found this statement offensive, for a number of reasons which I hope are mostly obvious. Similarly, when my rather... provincial relatives handed my husband the camera to take a family pictures *because they assume he, like "all Asians", is good with electronics and stuff*, it was rather awkward. Once those same relatives got a little alcohol in them, they started doing "imitations" of my husband by fashioning newspaper into those traditional Chinese rice paddy hats and trying to speak with a funny accent. My husband is not from and has never been to China, has never worn such a hat, and if he has any accent at all, it would be from rural Kentucky where he was born and raised--and even that is mostly gone from his years spent in the northeast. The point is that racial/ethnic/cultural stereotypes are still stereotypes, "complimentary" or not, and I do cringe when I see a child apparently named on the basis of any such stereotype.

From Kate: "And does that suggest a certain level of sexism, that parents are willing to give their daughters masculine sounding names, but would not want to give their son a more gender-neutral name, much less one that's fully crossed over to being perceived as feminine(Kelly comes to mind)?"

In a word, yes. This double standard is one of the things I find so unattractive about the "boy names for girls" phenomenon.

i agree that "class" is subjective when naming children...

that was my statement. i do have a question though..my daughter is having a baby..she wants to name her daughter(she knows the sex) raphaella to include her italian backround with her husbands english roots..she can not decide between raffaella and raphaella..i prefer the latter as i think it feels more substantial..what do you all think?

hyz:
I understand what you are saying. Appropriating cultural artifacts, including names, that aren't yours by heritage, based on stereotypes, even complimentary stereotypes, can be offensive to people. I agree.
But at the same time, sorting out the complex emotional reasons people like names is pretty hard. If I like the name Zion because it is a word that shows up in my favorite Bible verse that I read every night before I fall asleep, is it acceptable for me to use the name Zion or not? What if I don't know anything else about the word/name? Just how educated do I have to be about it before my using it ceases to be based on "stereotyping"? What about Parvati? If Harry Potter is my favorite book, and Parvati is my favorite character, plus I like the exotic sound of the name, is that stereotyping or is it literary appreciation? All I am saying is that whether or not names are based on stereotyping is not cut and dried enough for anyone to be offended by someone else's choice, the private reasons for which are usually not immediately apparent.

Raphaella seems to be prettier written out.

It is interesting to think about what cultures have assimilated to the point that the names sound "normal" to Americans. It is not strange, as others have noted, to have an Anthony Finnegan or a Caitlin Antonucci, right? But I know a little girl, who is ethnically a caucasian blend of a number of ethnicities, whose parents gave her a decidedly Arabic name, because they happened to be living in the middle east when she was born (the name is Alia, pron. AH-lee--uh, not the more Americanized uh--LEE-uh). Now that the family is back in the States, I have to wonder if that name will be a liability for her.. People mispronouncing it and her always having to explain it. I suppose it's nice that it has meaning, but I think of it as a bit of a burden. I'm guessing many will disagree with me on that point.

With regard to creative spellings, I think it's unfair to saddle a child with a lifetime of having to spell her name every time she introduces herself. And, since we know that at least some people associate creative spellings with certain demographics, is it fair to subject your child to those biases, when he or she is, for example, submitting a resume for a job interview? So, I prefer Raphaella.

Caitie, IF you're still reading this blog, I want to say that I understand the point you were trying to make and think it may be at least partially accurate. Giving one's child a name that is mispelled doesn't necessarily mean that the parents have a limited education. But I HAVE noticed that is the case more often than not. I think that if an extensive study were done, there would be a higher percentage of less educated parents who choose to do this. But that, of course, doesn't mean that educational level is always a factor in choosing to give a child a name that makes her/him have to explain again and again how her/his version of a name is spelled.

There ARE some class preferences in naming. This is discussed in Freakonomics and also comes up in at least one of the books by two other baby name experts, who include among their lists "Yuppie Names" -- all of which are spelled correctly.

I would like to add that whoever it was who put down the spelling of Caitie's nickname for Caitlin, that spelling is perfectly logical. If you name a child Caitlin -- spelled as it was originally spelled when it started to be a popular name in the US, and then start calling her Caitie, how else would you spell her nickname so that it reflects her given name?

Caitie wasn't focusing her comments on anyone in particular, but several participants in this blog ganged up on her with personal attacks. I've seen that happen before on this blog. Is this a welcoming blog or one that wants to see its participants limited to a few people who post again and again?

I wonder what Laura had in mind when she started this blog.

So enjoying this discussion!

Kristine: Oh, I like your son's name-- "Charles Wallace Lastname". Nice! We also gave our son my maiden name as one of his middle names. This practice seems to be found throughout the English-speaking world. I know that last-names-as-first-names abound in my Canadian and American families. Especially prevalent in the American South. At least until the nineteenth century in England, sons were sometimes given the mother's last name as first name, as a way of preserving/honoring it. You can find it in some Victorian English novels. I'm guessing that is not so prevalent there now? A "Wellington Jones" is much more likely to be a Yank or Canuck than an Englishman, I think!

I think even some non-English speaking countries might do this, at least incorporating the mother's last name as a middle name if not the first. Isn't that quite common with Spanish names?

Claire: For what it's worth, I love "Moses Levine", as much as Moses Johnson or Moses di Marco...

There is no such thing as an illegitimate name. I get really heated at someone who tells me (or anyone else) how to name my child. Of course there is nothing wrong with using a name outside your ethnicity, as Laura points out in this blog. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and using a name that accentuates it either.

The "argument-starter" comes when someone turns their opinion into a command. A person or website that demands I use a name in a specific way is just irrelevant. I happen to live in a free country. :)

Kristine, I agree that it's wrong to *assume* such names are picked for stereotypical reasons--I would try to reserve my personal judgments until I had a little more information from the namer as to why they chose that name. I also agree that if Zion is the word in your favorite Bible verse, or Parvati is your favorite character, and you chose them for those reasons, then that, to me, is not based on a stereotype (although one's appreciation of Rowling's Parvati being enhanced because is sounds "exotic" does head towards stereotyping, imho). RE: Parvati, the fact that Rowling's character isn't exotified helps "legitimize" her as a someone to name a child after (see, e.g. this little mention of the character I found online: http://www.mitaliblog.com/2005/07/you-go-parvati-and-padma.html)--much more palatable than, say, Cio-Cio San from Madame Butterfly.

I'd still hope that a person would take it upon themselves to learn a little more about the word and its historical context before bestowing it on a child, and at least decide whether that context alters their enthusiasm for the name, but that might be asking too much.

I understand both sides of the debate but would rather just do it my way. I have a strange taste for unusual Greek names and traditional Hebrew names and I'm not about to deny myself the right to use either when naming my children. And sure, no matter what their names are, they will be culturally ambiguous; My last name is Cartier, which just screams FRENCH and my SOs last name is so ambiguous we can't really figure out where it's from and what it means, but it often causes 'problems' at security checkpoints in airports and borders. In any case, if my children are named Noam Juba or Athena Cartier... I would feel rather upset if someone told me I had no cultural right to use them.

As a side note I have a friend who immigrated to Canada from Venezuela and her first name is Katiuska and very Russian. As she told me, her mum had just really loved Russian names while she was pregnant and chose Katiuska. And to me that sounds reasonable, I have no right to judge.

AS for creative spellings, they aren't my cuppa but I do know a Kristine who was on the honour roll and is a university graduate, a Reva (Reh-VAY) and a Cristel who both finished high school and became aestheticians. I think people can do things with their lives irrespective of their names.

Hillary, regarding your comment that "Caitie spelled that way is outrageous. Not unintelligent or low-class just a strange choice of name...", you may want to check Laura's listing for the name in Baby Name Wizard. Laura lists the name as CAITLIN ("variants Kaitlyn, Katelyn, Kaitlynn, Caitlyn, etc.") "Nicknames: Cait". So it seems that Caitie is an accepted way to spell that nickname for Caitlin.

I'm a bit 'sensitive' to your remark because my 4-year-old niece is named Caitlyn, nickname Caity. :-)

Hi Empathy
I'm one who responded to Caitie's original (and only as far as I know) post. I don't think people were ganging up on her at all! I think she happens to just be in the minority opinion, an unlucky position really. I haven't read anything that sounds really like anyone is attacking her, just disagreeing with her opinion.
I mentioned in my first posting about Caitie being a made up spelling. I just wanted to clarify my point in saying that...I don't actually mind the spelling of her name. I have a neice Caitlin, who goes by Caiti. I don't even think it's a made up spelling. But you can not argue that it is probably the most unusual spelling of "Katie" that you have ever seen, therefore it seems to me that it's a small case of the pot and the kettle.
Hope this clarified anything.
And Caitie...if you're still reading...respond! I love a healthy discussion! It's boring when everyone agrees!

There is no such thing as an illegitimate name. I get really heated at someone who tells me, or anyone else, how to name their child. Of course there is nothing wrong with using a name outside your ethnicity, as Laura points out in this blog. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and using a name that accentuates it either.

The "argument-starter" comes when someone turns their opinion into a command. A person or website that demands I use a name in a specific way is just irrelevant. I happen to live in a free country. :)

hyz:
I think we basically agree and are arguing over extreme nuance. I can completely get behind "I'd still hope that a person would take it upon themselves to learn a little more about the word and its historical context before bestowing it on a child."
Also, Parvati was not really my favorite character from Harry Potter, that would have to be Hermione, although I would never use her name! I do think that Rowling did a good job of not stereotyping her characters while using striking and enthic names.
Eo:
Thanks! I like Charles Wallace too :) I had that one picked out at the age of 10 I think. Also, come to think of it, my son John's middle name is Stewart, which is my husband's middle name, his father's middle name, etc. I found out recently that it became a family name over a hundred years ago - as a maiden name turned first name! So there you go, I did it twice.

There was a thread a while back where someone said they didn't like names that were meant to make others feel inferior. The implication was that urban Eastern and West Coast parents were choosing unusual names JUST to make her feel uneducated or unhip or whatever. Well....The problem is, you'll *never* know why most kids were named, but you can generally assume, first and foremost, no matter what the choice, that their parents ACTUALLY LIKED THE NAME AND CONSIDERED IT A GIFT TO THEIR CHILD. All other reasons are interesting, but secondary.

If you choose a name for a lot of reasons or just because you like the sound of it, cool, it's your right and chances are the kid will be fine; I prefer a good story, but that's just me.

Now, if you somehow like a name that is considered culturally inappropriate or offensive to others--learn more about why, weigh how much that worries you. There might be good reasons! And there are plenty of other names. Or you might find the offense doesn't outweigh your reasons, and then you proceed as planned. Maybe think about a nickname or give the kid a middle name that's less controversial, though, just in case they come to the opposite conclusion as they live with it.

Hi Nikki,

Caitlin is regarded as a separate name from Katherine. The nickname spelled Katie has traditionally been used for girls named Katherine. But what do you do if you name your daughter Catherine? She could be Katie, but having chosen the C/French spelling, Catie seems to be a closer nickname. Likewise, if your daughter is Caitlin, which has been considered a separate name from Katherine, then again, it seems only natural to spell her nickname as Caitie or Caity. And no, Caitie is not the most unusual form of "Katie" I've ever seen: my nephew is marrying a girl named Katherine, called Katee. We also have a Caity and a Catie in our extended family.

I too hope that Caitie will feel welcome to continue to participate in this blog.

Just a comment on ethnicity, scrolled through kinda fast so I don't know if someone mentioned this yet:

What about kids like Simon Goldstein, someone I know? His parents are Jewish--ethnically and religiously--and have, of course, raised their son as such. If you see Simon, though, you don't guess he's Jewish; he was adopted, and looks like his genetic ancestors--Chinese. So is it bad that that's his name? Too ethnic? I don't know. Certainly it fits him (like, his upbringing, family, and, uh, LIFE) better than something like Zi Xiang would.

Our son's name is Solomon. We're not Jewish, we just liked the name. He was a Solomon since I was 3 months pregnant. Now that he's here, Solomon fits him through and through, and I can't imagine another name that would fit his personality. If we had stayed within our demographic when choosing a name, it wouldn't have been the right name, not our Solomon.

How about a topic on people with names that "fit" or "suit" them as a person and those that don't, Laura? I'm a Katrina, and I've never felt at home in the name, and don't think it suits me (hence the "Kat"!)

Sarah, thanks for the lovely comment! I apologize if I talk shop (social science) too much, but names and social analysis are a natural fit--in fact, I became an NE at a very young age as just one facet of my interest in human society.

I took your other points to mean not that "last names as first names" or "mixed ethnicity names" are themselves "American" trends, but that what can be characterized as American-style naming is pretty much a general bending of the rules--both express, as once the case in France and implied as elsewhere--that have guided other societies for a long time. Was I on the right track?

To add a personal perspective, I am much happier now that I am no longer the sheriff of the "Cultural Appropriation Police" as I was when younger. I can reach out to the European family mentioned above who named their daughter Alia and the East Asian parents of Carmen and learn something enlightening about their experiences abroad/in life rather than roll my eyes and snark behind my hand to a friend "Oh, no, one of THOSE types." Feeling you know more than others and are waiting to catch them out in a cultural blunder is just an unpleasant state of being, and I'm well rid of it!

And giving people--even less-than-"culturally sensitive" namers--grief for choosing a name that doesn't appear to "match" their experience would certainly cut back on the number of people who are willing to venture out of their small comfort zones to begin with. I would classify that as a right shame.

To paraphrase Howard, it is a strange world we live in with our obsessive people-made boundaries and borders separating ourselves from other members of our species (I wonder what zebras and dolphins might think of us). In my personal and professional experiences, I have come to believe that "maintaining cultural integrity" is neither inherently benign/healthy nor malign/regressive.

I've got examples of both I could share with you, both in life and names.

Hilariously, the site left off the last sentence, which was an apology "begging pardon for being long of wind." The site likes my diatribes...

BY the way, Howard, your Bolivian friend reminds me of the old "selective self-identity" common to people everywhere. For example, you mention that they could (should?) have used at least one Spanish-language name. And this is certainly one possibility, considering the official language and dominant culture of Bolivia. However, another possibility could be that the Bolivian parent is one of the many (over 60%) Bolivians who have a large degree of Native American ancestry and recent culture as well. Yet, for some, the language one speaks becomes the identity they claim.

A funny thing about the Irish in America. Someone I met at a conference a few years back was telling me about research that uncovered the fact that a significant number of Americans who identify as "Irish-American," "Italian-American," "Portuguese-American" and "Polish-American" in fact have quite a lot of other European ethnicities in their family, tree, as well. Yet they selectively choose to emphasize the label they identify more with. This sort of selectivity goes on around the world.

My point with names is that we are each of us--even those of us from relatively isolated indigenous groups-- heirs to much more complicated ethnic and cultural histories than we know or choose, which makes self-limiting one's naming choices to one or two ethnic groups all the more perplexing!

By the way, the only thing "Evan" reads to me is Judeo-Christian. I really don't hear it as Irish-specific in the way Ian would be Scottish to my ears (though now widely used everywhere).

I'm wading into this topic with some trepidation...here goes..

On one hand, I was annoyed by a comment that someone made on a different names site I read, which was to the effect that middle-class Scots who had "lost their accents" had no right to use such Scottish names as Fergus, Hamish or Alasdair. What exactly would that indignant Scot do with the thousands of Canadian, American, Aussie and New Zealand kids with very Scottish or Irish names and minimal cultural or ethnic links to the Celts, nevermind the accent? Limiting English-speaking people to traditionally English names makes little sense in immigrant nations like these. In that respect, I do agree that names are "legitimate," no matter the culture.

However, I also understand that people feel strongly about their cultural identity- and are particularly sensitive to its hijacking by the Great Homogenising Powers (for the indignant Scot that would be the wealth and blandness of London, to most of the world that would be the anglosphere generally and America particularly). So I think that if parents want to bestow their child with a name new to their cultural context, that it's important to do it with sensitivity and intelligence. As in, ask some people from the culture being borrowed from, and if they say "well, personally I don't mind, but," it's important to listen to the "but." If it's still the name they love for their child, and they have reasons for giving it, and they've listened to the comments from the other culture, then fine. But I really do think it's that important to give it the extra thought and research. I think I may get some flack for this, but I'm ready to defend my position :)

Finally, on the subject of made-up names and respellings, while they don't appeal to me, I think they're one of the most interesting aspects of American culture. That Pioneer mythology in name form!

stuff rattling in my brain:

Someone mentioned Renee as a crossover name into English from French. Something that bothers me is using accents in English--spelling it Renée. If it crossed over into English, the accent shouldn't be necessary. It's kinda sorta similar (but not as extreme) to being named John, a Hebrew crossover, and requiring it to be spelled in Hebrew characters but using it in English. On a person using Renée in a French language context I don't see a problem. I guess it's just a pet peeve and people can use accents at their will. I similarly feel like "facade" does not require a cedilla in English.

I prefer Rafaela, but I guess this isn't "correct Italian."

So much to comment on!

Re: Raf(f)aela vs. Raphaella. I like the -ph- version better. Just something about those Fs that I don't care for.

hyz said: "I'd still hope that a person would take it upon themselves to learn a little more about the word and its historical context before bestowing it on a child, and at least decide whether that context alters their enthusiasm for the name, but that might be asking too much."
** I agree with you *and* I think it's asking too much of most folks. When I think of the people I know, they are looking for names they like the sound of that limit teasing potential on the playground. It's a pretty basic, no-research approach to naming that I think many on this blog, myself included, wouldn't stop at.

Sushila O'Malley -- If you choose a name for a lot of reasons or just because you like the sound of it, cool, it's your right and chances are the kid will be fine; I prefer a good story, but that's just me.
**I agree with you, too! I love to know the reasons behind names, and I'm frustrated when sometimes there just aren't any (or none that satisfy me). Also, I think naming kids is a lot like the breastfeeding vs. formula-feeding "controversy -- in the end most of us turn out fine, no matter what choice our parents made.

Anonymous -- Simon Goldstein
**My daughter has a 1st-grade classmate -- Yoseph Jewish-ln -- who is ethnically Asian. In NYC, and esp in my heavily Jewish neighborhood, that's not odd.

Kat -- Solomon
**I love, love, love the name Solomon! I would totally consider it 1) if we were having another and 2) if my husband would agree to it. I think it's a great name. I also think the idea of Laura doing a piece on whether you "fit" your name would be interesting. I feel my daughter's name is a total fit for her, and I'm glad we were able to find something that suits her so well.

Sorry, I left my reminders (e.g., Simon Goldstein, Solomon) above. Helps me organize my comments, but isn't meant to remain in the final version. Perhaps one shouldn't be posting after a glass (or two) of wine!

Oh, sorry, the last anon was I.

Amy3--I know, it was just to make the point that ethnicity is more complicated than its often perceived.

Thanks Amy3! That was it! Wow. I've been reading this blog a lot longer than I remembered!

I have to admit I tend to be one who wishes folks would stick with names to which they have a significant connection. I say it that way because I don't think you have to have a particular percentage of an ethnicity's "blood" in you, but I think names that are strongly related (subjective, I know) to a particular culture should sort of be "restricted" to folks with connections to that culture (identify with it by family/"blood" ties or lived there and want to honor that or something else). I am into pretty traditional (plain) names and like that. Our daughter is named Karoline and it was hard for me to use the "K" because it was "trendy", but it was important to my husband who has a strong Danish heritage and whose 3 or 4 female relatives for whom we were naming our daughter all spelled it Karoline. That's a little off topic.

Another example might be names like Mary and Joseph. I liked them. They fit my interest in traditional names, but as a Protestant pastor I thought they sounded more "Catholic" than I am. Any middle name I could come up with for Mary sounded like a Catholic school roster. Joseph kept going to Joey in my head and that sounded Italian. I know Joseph is not "Italian", but that's the culture within American culture that I associate with that name.

So my kids are Karoline Elizabeth and William Phillip. They are HEAVY in the family name department, and I like that. Not completely thrilling or anything, but they have a lot of meaning in their traditions, and THAT I like for us.

Regarding the "legitimacy" question and names:

Both J&H's Mom and Kristine piqued my interest with their comments. (By the way, J&H's mom, how delightful to see you posting regularly again!)

Kristine, both the "Behind the Name" website and Satran and Rosenkrantz's "The Baby Name Bible" do list "Kristine" as a Scandinavian variant of Christine, Christina, et al. So it is "official" as it were. Apparently it is used in a Baltic country like Latvia too. Neat!

J&H's Mom, you think of your name as faux Celtic, but I find it fascinating from several standpoints. Although I think of "Megan" as Welsh, your parents, by spelling it "Maegan" introduced the "Mae" construction found in gorgeous Irish names like "Maeve", joined to another pleasant Irish suffix "-gan", as in Regan, Mangan, etc. Am I wrong in thinking at least some of your background is Irish? How felicitous. I also like the fact that you have the option of using the fabulous retro nickname, "Mae".

My point being, I suppose, that "legitimacy" when it comes to names, is a marvelously flexible concept. A lot of people who think their name has no precedent or substance, can be pleasantly surprised if they'll research around a little... It used to perplex me that many name authorities gave short shrift to MY name. If mentioned at all, it would be described as a twentieth century "fancy spelling".

I knew from other sources it was a medieval variant that cropped up very rarely but persistently over the centuries. Imagine my glee when I discovered that it had entered history, at least once, in a memorable way. Ellyn Bowman (who died around 1591) was an English Puritan or Dissenter activist who smuggled books to the famous divine, Henry Barrow, when he was imprisoned for his views. There have been other interesting "Ellyns-with-a-y", but she rather captures my imagination...

So take heart, other variant spellings! There is perhaps much more to your name than you realize!

Something I think is being missed in the debate about social class and naming. Many of the "creative" and "misspelled" names are actually sources of cultural pride, for example within the African-American community. These names are not being chosen out of ignorance, nor are they random individual choices. They are deliberate, culturally appropriate choices in that particular culture.

The connection to income and education level is real, but that's because social inequality is real. It doesn't mean that certain naming trends are inherently better than others.

Howard/EasternBetty - Evan is Welsh, not Irish! Go for it...

hi there, keren--I'm up late on my side of the Atlantic. I confess I was not quite sure why Howard thought of it as an Irish name, but figured he must know lots of Irish people who have used that name and hence associated it thus!

But to your point, , many non-NEs may not know it's a Welsh name, since it "reads" less noticeably Welsh than Bronwen or Rhys, say.

Speaking of name-misapprehension, I commiserate over the fact that you grew up having people think you and your siblings' names were alternatively spelt. This must have been maddening, especially given the demonstrated antipathy some have toward standards they consider less than standard.

hi there, keren--I'm up late on my side of the Atlantic. I confess I was not quite sure why Howard thought of it as an Irish name, but figured he must know lots of Irish people who have used that name and hence associated it thus!

But to your point, , many non-NEs may not know it's a Welsh name, since it "reads" less noticeably Welsh than Bronwen or Rhys, say.

Speaking of name-misapprehension, I commiserate over the fact that you grew up having people think you and your siblings' names were alternatively spelt. This must have been maddening, especially given the demonstrated antipathy some have toward spellings they consider less than standard.

Notice how I fixed the last sentence typo but it still posted both? ;)

Hi -

Kristine: Giving last names as first names is a more American trend seen from an international perspective. Even giving a family name as a middle name is more unusual over here, although the older Victorians had a trend of giving the second son or something the mother's maiden name as a first name. This definitely is more unusual now in the UK; I have a family name as a middle name and not a single British/Irish friend of mine, male or female, has the same. However, Charles Wallace is an undoubtedly cool set of names, and not just because of "The Wrinkle in Time" connection. So be proud!

In the UK/Ireland there is more repeat of FIRST names within a family. Five generations of men in my husband's family have James for a middle name. My nephew's middle names are James and also Jackie, for his paternal grandfather [he was apparently a John, but called Jackie every day of his life in Ireland, so it's doesn't sound feminine at all to them, which it does to me], which he shares as a middle name with a couple cousins on that side. My godson's middle name is his grandfather's first name; his mother hyphenated her surname (which is also unusual in the UK; women here who bother to get married tend to take the husband's name) but didn't even give her last name, which I know she feels strongly about, as a middle name to her son. Women who have kids without getting married don't do this either. And the women in my office were talking about middle names last week; two or three of them gave their mother's middle names to their daughters despite not liking the names, but simply to maintain a family tradition. And the new baby boy in the office has his dad's middle name as his first name.

Hyz: My point was that a first name/last name set which doesn't match ethnically is hugely American, and not something that should be considered unusual. The fact that my surname is an alternate spelling of a French name from an ancestor who came over in 1750-something is not something I want to bring up every time I spell my email address. I was very nearly named Jennifer, a derivative Welsh spelling of Guinevere that went mainstream after Love Story, in which the character's surname was Italian. My nephew mentioned above is named Reese, which is a Welsh name that was trendy in Ireland/UK nine years ago, but spelled in the American way as a tribute to me. My point here is that there probably is a story behind every Sean Messerschmidt/Francesca Wong, but to make the assumption that such a name is worthy of comment just seems, well, not to be rude, but it's nobody's business.

On Irish names in general: American Irish people give their children very different names to actual Irish people. The trendy Irish names mentioned above are considered 'grandparent' names in Ireland currently. The Irish Statistics office lists top 100 baby names by year http://www.cso.ie/statistics/top_babies_names.htm Current top five for girls: Sarah, Emma, Katie, Aoife, Sophie. Current top five for boys: Sean, Jack, Conor, Adam, James. No one in Ireland is named Erin. I knew an American Colleen at college in Ireland and she got teased so much about it she went by Silver!

Easternbetty: you're welcome! I hope my comments above have also addressed the points you raised. Names are hugely fascinating aren't they? And a public manifestation of your personal self. However this board can have a more limited perspective on naming, which can be frustrating. But I must ask: WHAT is an NE??? Name expert?

Harriet: re: ethnically Asian kid w/ identifiably Jewish names -- "... it was just to make the point that ethnicity is more complicated than its often perceived."
**Absolutely! That's part of what makes this topic so fascinating but also fraught with real or perceived pitfalls for namers.

I've made the point before that while I often like ethnically mixed names, and do think they can beautifully represent a more multicultural world, personally I couldn't have given a name like that to my daughter. My husband and I both have a mix of Northern Eu