The Baby Name Wizard

This makes me wonder if I should avoid the name Miles because of TV star Miley Cyrus. Given, she's well over 15 minutes of fame, but do you NEs think that our baby boy, as a Miles, would forever be associated with Miley Cyrus?

As to Betsy - maybe with the return of Elizabeth to the top, the nn followed?

Re: Betsy

IMDb lists a short film titled "Betsy" from July 2005 - personally I had never heard of it.

I wouldn't see Miles as associates with Miley. I guess she is not that significant on my radar (although she has become pretty impossible to not be aware of), and I keep thinking her name is the Hawaiian name Maile, but I really don't see a connection between the names.

JennyAnna - Miles to me doesn't relate to Miley Cyrus. Miles sounds very opposite of boy naming trends. Also, when you look at the NameVoyager, it really has started rising since in the 70s...well before Miley.

Although I am the person who, when I was told a coworker used the name Miley late last year, said it was a silly name (actually a mild version of what I really said) and I had never heard of it. This was before I started reading this blog of course.

Re: Betsy, I am perplexed. I thought at first it was an attempt at "old is new" that didn't take but then saw the peak was in the 1950s so that doesn't fit. For some reason I thought cow when I read Betsy and couldn't place it until I googled it and came up with Charlotte's Web, which the movie version with Dakota Fanning was released in 2006. So maybe, going along with Anna's movie theory?

Good question on Betsy. Pop-culture-wise, the best I can come up with is actress Betsy Russell, who starred in the popular "Saw III" (2006), and Betsy Uschkrat, who was Miss Indiana 2006. But neither of those seems like enough to make the top 1000.

I should add I don't think anyone would conciously name their dd after a cow in a children's story but perhaps it subconciously entered their mind. Actually, I quite like a lot of the characters names from the book...Homer, Wilbur, Fern, Charlotte (of course), Brooks, Templeton, etc.

JennyAnna -- I wouldn't connect a Miles with Miley Cyrus, although with a 6-yr-old girl, I certainly can't escape Miley-mania! My husband even suggested the celeb nn of Mi Cy [pron. my sigh] for her. We'll see if that takes off.

Jen, I agree that subconscious influences are possible. Another name I forgot to mention is Betsy Beers, who is an executive producer for "Grey's Anatomy." If enough prospective parents are watching the show for Addison to have become as popular as it is now, maybe they're also subconsciously noticing "Betsy" in the credits as it rolls by.

Folks expecting their first kid will naturally assume that Miley Cyrus isn't a big deal--she's a blip on the non-parent radar--but if you have a kid in K-first-second-third grade, she's nigh-on inescapable.

Sadly, Miley Cyrus may be in rehab, or just vastly uncool, when today's newborn Mileys start K. If so they'll soon be looking for an alternative version of the name. "Miles" may well be one nickname option (like Jules is used for Julie). So a boy Miles might have girl classmates who are also called Miles--just a heads-up on that possibility.

It's too bad, because I do like the name Miles very much, in the abstract--but there are a lot of ways the name could turn out disappointing for a 2008 baby's parents.

Betsy--huh! I wonder if it's the influence of "Ugly Betty"? A little twist on that, in its first year as a popular American TV show? ("Betty la Fea" has obviously been popular much longer in other markets.)

Walter Cronkite's wife's name was Betsy and she died in 2005.

Betsy was the name of the possessed daughter in "An American Haunting."

Could either of these references be unobscure enough for the name to rank in 2006, and then not rank again? I guess they could have possibly been just obscure enough for the name to only show up in 2006 and not '07.

Oh, golly, it never occurred to me that the Miley phenomenon could get mixed up with handsome "Miles". But parents of boy Miles's needn't worry. They can always default to a nickname like "Milo", which is also impressive and a good name in its own right...

Just a technical related comment-Laura, when I put the new site into Google Reader, it shows up as untitled. Is there a fixable reason for this? does anyone else have this problem?

Well, I'm going to break with the conversation and ask for some name advice. What do you guys think of Dorothea Lisette? (I pronounce it li-SET. Not techincally correct, I know). I posted it elsewhere and didn't get much response, so I thought I'd ask some other NEs!

re: Dorothea Lisette.

I love the rhythm of the name, and Lisette is lovely. In all honesty, though, Dorothea has a bit of a fusty ring to me. What do you think of Theodora? Same meaning, same rhythm with Lisette, but it strikes me as a little fresher for some reason.

I like Dorothea with Lisette. Theodora sounds fresher but it also sounds a little bit...I'm not sure. Trying to hard? I guess it does give you great boyish nicknames.

Regarding the earlier nickname discussion--a lot of those questions about segue-ing into an adult name has come up in our house with regards to my Ned fixation. We keep thinking we could use Edison (which I like more than Edward, although Edward is growing on me) and get Ned (thus 2 names I really like) but we have a friend named Ned who says its always a hassle even with Edward convincing people that Ned and Edward are the same guy.

Even getting Bram from Abraham (another of our choices) might be an issue. apparently my Triple-great grandfather rearranged his first and middle names b/c he couldn't get people to stop calling him Abe. Then again, I grew up with a kid whose family successfully convinced us to call him Topher from Christopher, so I have fewer concerns about the Abraham/Bram thing.

I just started teaching large college classes and for the first time faced using the middle name as a first name and strange nicknames all year long. They are HARD. even when they want a normal nickname or no nn at all.

Hardest name of the year? A lovely young lady who wanted to go by a nickname form of her middle name. To make it harder? It was a cutsey nickname that was really hard to use with a straight face in a professional situation.

If you really care, I think you are better off using a name that is nickname-proof. Gideon anyone?

sorry about that comment--it got out of hand. I didn't realize how much I had to say until I got into it.

"Edison" will sound like "Addison" to a lot of folks in the 2010s. Bear that in mind. Probably not a deal breaker, but worth considering.

Also bear in mind that using historical and geographic names will inevitably invite questions about your particular interest in, in this case, the inventor and/or the New Jersey town. If you have such a particular interest, excellent; if you don't... answering questions about them is going to get tedious, fast. And if your utility company is Southern California Edison, for example, the name may remind some folks of their power bill rather than your son! Again, probably not a deal breaker, but worth factoring in to the decision.

DH and I are both science geeks (ecology and geology/engineering), so Edison works for us. Our current middle name choice for Edward would be Mandela so we'll probably get questions no matter what. I hadn't thought of the power company thing--none of the power companies in the 3 states we've lived in have been called Edison anything.

And using Ned could take care of a lot of that. That extra syllable between the two names beginning with E (DH's last name) seems to make a big difference in how it rolls off the tongue.

Another Amy--

Why are you calling college students by their given names and nicknames anyway?

I taught at the university level for thirty years, and I always called my students by their surnames and honorifics. They were all adults, and none of them was my friend (although some of them later became friends and even colleagues). Besides which I'd be damned if I would call a grown woman Precious or Princess or whatever her parents bestowed on her. Not to mention the years when half the class bore the name Mohammed.

I myself am absolutely infuriated when someone I don't know, a store clerk, a receptionist, whoever, calls me by my first name. IMO opinion it is rude, disrespectful, and presumptuous. When I feel that first names are appropriate, then I so indicate.

Certainly when I was a university student, all the professors referred to us students by honorific and surname. I spent 25 years teaching in the deep south and followed the same practice. Down south there is a sort of mid-formality when one is too close for surnames and yet not really friends (such as co-workers). Then one says Miss Jane and Mr. Claude, but never just Jane or Claude. Children are also taught to call their parents' adult friends as Miss Mary or Mr. Tom. Small children addressing adults by their first name alone puts me on tilt.

Perhaps time has passed me by, but from my perspective, my students were both adults and (at least initially) strangers, and so deserved the formal respect of their surnames and honorifics.

Miriam,

I've known students who were at schools where honorifics were used with students but i'm at a large state school where that doesn't appear to be the case--or isn't in any of the classrooms I've been in. Nor can I remember being a student in a class like that myself (either in the South or in the Midwest, the regions I've lived in). I'm sure there are some.

If I get too many students wanting to be called silly nicknames (ok, not as silly as Precious--it *was* derived from her middle name), I probably will switch over. Maybe its more common in some disciplines than others?

Another Amy--

At the small, private university that I went to, all of the professors also called us by our fn/mn/nn. Whatever we chose to be called.

And often they invited us to call them by their first names as well.

Neither I nor any of my classmates had any problem with that.

In fact, at that time in my life, I didn't care to be called Miss Surname at all.

Miriam-

I also was never called Miss Surname at a university, and thank goodness! Often I was the only female in the room, and being called "Miss" would have felt condescending.

That was in the midwest. Now that I live in the south, I still have not adjusted to being called Miss *or* Ma'am.

Julie

In defense of Betsy, it *is*, as Laura wrote, a "classic" name with a long history. I've always liked it because of its popularity in colonial America (Betsy Ross and others) -- just like Abigail (as in Adams). I've never cared for Betty or Bessie, but considered Elizabeth called Betsy as a name for our second daughter. I decided not to use the name because I had a friend Elizabeth "Betsy" who tried to change her nickname to just about any other Elizabeth nickname when she went away to college. I think she thought Betsy sounded too childish.

A friend named her daughter Elizabeth Anne "Betsy". That Betsy, now a successful young career woman, seems to like her name just fine.

It may be that some of the many Elizabeths born in 2007 are called "Betsy" too and that the name hasn't declined as much as statistics for Betsy as a given name implies.

Cat: is dorothea pronounced dorothy? or like thea at the end?

as a teacher, i tend to ask students what they would like to be called too. only once this kid (high school age) tried to sell me on this nn he had just made up. luckily, it was pretty obvious. another kid wanted me to call him by his mn, but never answered to it--my guess is that he never really went by it but just wanted to try it. or he just didn't pay attention. a definite possibility.

"Small children addressing adults by their first name alone puts me on tilt."

I have worked with children most of my life (in churches, schools, camps, etc.), and I insist they call me by my first name. Why? Because I don't believe I deserve respect simply because I'm older--and because respect (when earned) is best shown in real actions, not just in words. So we talk about all that, and about how we're equals in the eyes of God so I can be Jane and they can be Maddie and Jeff, period.

I don't much like Miss, Mrs. isn't right (I don't use DH's surname), and I can legitimately be called Dr. (got a PhD), but that seems ridiculously pretentious to ask of a child. Ms. is okay, I'll accept it if parents insist, but it's not my first choice. Just Jane, please.

Miriam-- I quite like your approach. Sometimes it must seem like a losing battle to try to uphold the little civilities, but there are lots of us out here who appreciate those who do.

Although, another amy, I don't fault you for going with first names either-- it is the style you are comfortable with, and works for you.

I was part of the Boomer generation who started the regrettable slide away from what I consider to be basic standards. As a student I was charmed to be addressed by a few hold-out professors as "Miss/Ms. Osborne" in class. I think it creates an atmosphere of respect and professionalism. It is also a subtle preparation for the adult world. I love it when high school teachers do it to their students too!

Hi all,

Does anyone know the meaning of the name "Mary"? I've seen the meaning listed as "beloved" and "bitter", among others...

Thanks!

I don't think that using first names is always a sign of rudeness or loss of manners. It just represents a different etiquette, no better or worse than the old form. At university I have always been called by my first name or nickname and tutors and lecturers have also been called by theirs. The same goes for professional environments I've worked in, where all levels of employees from Executives to juniors use first names. First names are even used in job interviews and with clients etc unless the preference for surnames is expressed. Respect for superiors is just shown through actions rather than those words.

I've heard several debates about going formal in college classrooms. Just because I haven't yet, doesn't mean I won't in the future. I'm intrigued--but since I tend to sit on desks while I lecture it seems a little formal for me.

anyhow, back to first names--my BIL is expecting a son soon. I heard today they are planning on naming the baby boy Taylor. I felt like I had to mention that these days its a girl's name...at least we don't have to worry about overlap!

I thought some of you might be interested in this professor's take on the subject of honorifics in class: http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2007/07/2007070501c/careers.html

For those asking about the name Dorothea, I think it's usually pronounced just like it looks -- Dor-o-THE-a -- or contracted to Dor-THE-a. My favorite aunt was named Dorathea (DorA..., instead of DorO) after her grandmother, a German immigrant, who was sometimes called Dora. I like the name better when it's spelled as my family did -- and that spelling also is exactly the same as Theadora turned around.

I was suprised to read Another Amy's pairing of Dorothea with Lisette, as both those names are in my extended family: Aunt Dorathea had a niece called Lizette (my cousin, whose mother, btw, wrote Amy on her birth announcements and then whited it out and wrote Lizette instead). Lizette is pronounced as Li-ZET.

I'm in agreement with Miriam and Eo, particularly in regard to students not calling their professors by their first names. My husband has been teaching at the community college level for over 40 years and is *always* addressed as Mr. P. One of our sons is a professor at a private college in the East and is called Professor P. by his students. This summer he'll be teaching at a Korean university, where it would be unthinkable for a student to call the teacher by his first name.

Weighing in on the topic of formality in the academic world—I graduated from college within the last five years, spent some time in graduate school and currently work in an academic setting, and it is universal in my experience that professors call their students by their first names. As a grad student, I called all my professors by their first names, as do all the other grad students of my acquaintance—with the exception of one professor who insists upon being called Dr. LN, and that has sort of become a joke among the rest of the department. I also know several professors who are also known by their first name among undergrads (though "Professor LN" is still the default there). In fact, the professor who taught my freshman seminar as an undergrad told us to call her Sarah, and said that back in the old days it was actually considered taboo to use "Dr." or "Professor," because it was beyond obvious that anyone teaching at this university would have a PhD (just like Amanda Seligman wrote about Bryn Mawr in that article—thanks another amy, that was really interesting!) Based on my experience and that article, I can definitely see how the informal means of address is more conducive to an interactive, collaborative, dialogue-based learning experience, while the formality would foster a more authority-based, professor-knows-best experience. Depends on what you're going for, I guess. Two of the universities I've studied/worked at are in the northeast, and one in the U.K.

Did anyone see the blog entry by author Meg Gardiner, in which she discusses naming characters and provides a link to the Name Voyager? http://meggardiner.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/top-names-2007/#comments

She describes the Wizard as "wonderful", and I felt vicariously proud.

re: small children and first names

I'm a children's librarian and have had to decide what to use when I introduce myself to kids. The trend where I live for people who work with preschoolers seems to be "Miss Firstname." It really grates on me. We don't live in the South, where there's at least a tradition of using that construct; here, it seems to have spread from daycares. It strikes me as cutesy and precious.

I decided to introduce myself as Mrs. Lastname. My last name isn't difficult, and even if it were, I'd be more likely to go with Mrs. L than with Miss Jen. The preschoolers I have in storytime won't be using Miss Firstname with their teachers when they start kindergarten, and I'd rather reinforce the idea that I am more like a teacher than like a daycare provider.

sheesh. I just realized that the long comment that started the formality discussion was meant for the *last* post, which had drifted on to nicknames.

btw, I prefer that my students call me by Dr/Professor LN or even Dr. Amy. I don't have graduate students but if I did we'd use first names.

Hm, Betsy. There was a Bethzy on a Spanish-language dancing show (Bailando por un Sueño) in 2005-2006. No idea how big it was...but maybe? Supporting this theory: the Bethzy spelling is at 800-something.

I reserve my greatest approbation for those who buck the trend and decline to dispense with civilities in academia.

It goes without saying that it's possible to maintain boundaries, where appropriate, and still be accessible, unpretentious and friendly!

A little formality, dare I say even "courtliness", in such a setting is not amiss. Time out of mind, a title (Miss, Mr., Mrs.) and surname has signified respect. Were there to be more of that generally, perhaps guest speakers on campus who express non-doctrinaire views could avoid being hit by flying cream pies by some in the "tolerant" and "egalitarian" student body...

By the way, does anyone remember whether Sidney Poitier addressed his students formally in "To Sir With Love"? If he didn't, he gave the impression that he did! He was the ultimate "maintainer of standards" in that movie, to the kids' great benefit. I can't remember if it was set in the London slums, or perhaps Liverpool?

I do remember, when I first started college, being very uncomfortable calling professors by their first names, as they asked. It was just new to me. My high schoolers also have a really hard time when I tell them to call me by my first name--cuz in high school I think it is actually a rule that they have to use Mrs. and Mr. So I tell them they can call me Ms. LN or whatever. (But I hate how my name sounds like that. Because my LN starts with Ta, Ms. LN sounds like Mr.)

I really didn't get comfortable calling adults by their FN until I started my PhD and I started thinking that these folks would be my colleagues in a few years and it was also really the norm at this instutition. And yeah there is one prof who insists on being Dr. LN. I think it may have something to do with African American tradition or just feeling like she needs that show of respect in a white-dominant university.

Where I grew up (not in the south), day camp "leaders" were called Miss and Mr. FN. I think it's cute b/c it reminds me of that context, but I can see how it could be a sign of being less than Ms/Mr/Mrs LN. These folks were usually younger--college age I think.

Oh, also, where I grew up, adults are generally called aunty and uncle. This includes strangers, clerks, parents' friends. I think of it sort of like the Miss and Mr. of the south. I like it and I think some folks hold very strongly to it--that adults must be addressed like this. I think that with my kids I will hold to it to some extent.

Eo -- Re: To Sir with Love. It was set in London's East End and according to this bit from the screenplay, girls were addressed as Miss and boys' by their surnames.

"...we are all going to observe
certain courtesies in this classroom.

You will call me
Sir or Mr. Thackeray.

The young ladies will be
addressed as Miss...

...the boys by their surnames."

I also teach on the college level and have never used honorifics to refer to my students. Many of them don't even call me Dr. T--, which is okay with me. The only time I refused to call a student by his preferred nickname was when I taught a Caucasian young man named Trevor. On the first day of class he asked me to call him "Coon," which I immediately told him I wouldn't do. I don't know if he was aware of the racial overtones (although since he was from rural NC, I don't see how he couldn't have been), but I sure was! The next semester I read in the student newspaper that he was arrested for getting drunk and smashing all the furniture in his dorm's lounge.

Now I coordinate several sections of a graduate-level class and have the joyful opportunity to see dozens of lists of names every semester. Many of the students are foreign, so I have no idea whether they're men or women, but I get the pleasure of seeing names like Biqi, Daraya, Jiwon, Ranice, and Pai. Among the more "American" names this semester were Kerry, LaKia, Carla, Sarah, Brandy, Natalya, Pam, Ann, Mackenzie (that one really surprised me because she is at least 22 years old), Aubree (again, this one surprised me for the same reason), Eveleen, and Nathalie. Note the appearance of Natalya and Nathalie!

"Time out of mind," or at least for centuries, it has *not* been a Quaker tradition to use any honorific or signal deference based on age or rank. The most formal you could politely get would be Brother Jon, or Sister Baker, or Friend Lydia, and those apply equally to a child as to an older person.

It's not a hippified, loosy-goosy informalism that motivates this, but part of the "plain speech" egalitarian Quaker ideal--No Mr. or Mrs. or Sir (which all hark back to masters and mistresses, ew), for the same reasons Quakers famously didn't remove hats or bow heads in the presence of judges or others of rank.

Some social gestures of "civility" function to maintain unearned privileges, the unproductive barriers between people, and I'm glad to see those weakened or abandoned.

In both undergrad and grad school I called my professors Dr/Mr/Ms LN. They typically called the students by their FNs. My father taught master's and doctoral students and I believe they always referred to him as Dr LN.

After my undergrad I moved from a more western state to the south where I found myself being introduced by colleagues to students (I worked in an academic library) as Ms LN. I was horrified! It seemed so *old* to me. I quickly told everyone to please call me by my FN and frankly, I did the same to them. (In retrospect I imagine that bothered some of my colleagues, but no one ever said anything.) My supervisor even made a point my first day to say, "Please call me FN," which I found funny at the time because I wouldn't have thought to call her anything else.

The adults in my daughter's life to whom she's close (parents of friends, for example) are all called by their FNs. OTOH, my niece who lives in Maryland calls similar adults in her life Ms or Mr FN. I don't mind at all the informality of addressing someone by his/her FN and it doesn't bother me when people do it to me.

It is funny to me, though, that I seem to have trouble addressing my daughter's teacher by her FN although she addresses me by mine and signs her emails to me with her FN. I'm slowly (with 5 more weeks of school left) starting to use her FN.

Thank you very much for digging that up, Amy3! I can just hear Sidney Poitier saying that in his precise, emphatic way! Love it....

Whoa, I see I missed some comments. Enjoyed your post, Sister Melinda. I KNEW there would be pushback on this!

I was considering the wider society. But Quaker traditions are indeed fascinating, and certainly represent an alternate view...

I love this FN/LN etiquette discussion, because it's something that DH and I have disagreed over in the past. I grew up in a fairly progressive metropolitan area, and most adults wanted children to address them by their FNs (neighbors, teachers, etc.). In the rare instance that I had to use a Mr./Ms. LN (almost never Mrs. or Miss--I don't think I met more than 5 of those total in my childhood), it felt awkward, and I tried to avoid addressing them by name at all. In college, some professors went by Dr. LN, and some by FNs, but I still mostly tried to avoid addressing them by name since I wasn't sure which they preferred. They always called us by our FNs. Honestly, my opinion of a middle-aged person (truly old people got a pass, since I figured that's how things were done in "their day") who wanted to be called by their LN was that they were somewhat stuck-up and stand-offish, *especially* if they called ME by my FN. I thought it was a way of intentionally creating distance between us, emphasizing that they were older and demanded respect (whether they deserved it or not), while I was a younger peon to be talked down to.

Imagine my horror when DH informed me that I had to address his parents as Dr. and Mrs. LN (my parents insist that DH call them by their FNs). "Oh, so it's going to be like *this*," I thought. "They don't want to be family, they don't want to be friendly, and they probably don't even like me very much. Fine. Hmph." But DH, on top of being Korean (a culture which very much honors and formalizes age differences), also grew up in the South, and had the exact opposite of my experience--all adults went by LNs, and he felt awkward calling an adult by their FN, and he thought it was unimaginably rude that I would even consider calling his parents by their FNs.

Now we each understand it as two different systems of etiquette and expectations, but we both still avoid addressing each other's parents by name--it's just awkward all around.

re: formality; when I was at university for my undergrad course, lots of the other students called the professors by their first names. I think it was expected that they would do so. However, I always felt uncomfortable with this and preferred to call them Dr Lastname or Professor LastName.

Now I'm doing my postgrad we are very much expected to be on a first-name basis with our tutors. I find it a bit weird and to be honest just avoid talking to them in general!

When we were little we used Auntie, Uncle and Granny as 'honorifics'. Auntie Fran, Auntie Joanne, Uncle Thomas, Grany LastName. My boyfriend's family is the same, although they don't use their aunt/uncle's first names (they just call them Aunt and Uncle, which is fine as they only have one of each) and they refer to their grandparents as Granny/Grampa FirstName.

Of course, Quakers are and have always been part of wider American society. Quaker ideals founded Pennsylvania; Quakers drove the abolition movement, and the suffrage movement, and access to higher education for women and minorities, too. We've even had a Quaker-raised president (ahem, maybe not the best representative, but...).

It is so interesting to hear everyone's differing experiences on the use of Miss/Mrs./Mr./Ms. Personally, ever since taking a graduate level class on gender theory, I find the use of Miss and Mrs. a little offensive...I should not be defined by my marital status. But then I have relatives in the South and when I'm there they call me Miss Jennifer or Sugar, which in everyday life I would find offensive but because they are family, I view it more as a term of endearment. So I think it really is about context.

I always referred to my profs as Professor or Dr. if they preferred. I do think children should address teachers and parents whom they are not close to as Mr. or Ms. LN, unless they state otherwise.

Did you all name watchers hear the latest celebrity gossip? It seems that the Pitt/Jolie family is expecting twins! Any guesses on the names?