The Baby Name Wizard

This makes me wonder if I should avoid the name Miles because of TV star Miley Cyrus. Given, she's well over 15 minutes of fame, but do you NEs think that our baby boy, as a Miles, would forever be associated with Miley Cyrus?

As to Betsy - maybe with the return of Elizabeth to the top, the nn followed?

Re: Betsy

IMDb lists a short film titled "Betsy" from July 2005 - personally I had never heard of it.

I wouldn't see Miles as associates with Miley. I guess she is not that significant on my radar (although she has become pretty impossible to not be aware of), and I keep thinking her name is the Hawaiian name Maile, but I really don't see a connection between the names.

JennyAnna - Miles to me doesn't relate to Miley Cyrus. Miles sounds very opposite of boy naming trends. Also, when you look at the NameVoyager, it really has started rising since in the 70s...well before Miley.

Although I am the person who, when I was told a coworker used the name Miley late last year, said it was a silly name (actually a mild version of what I really said) and I had never heard of it. This was before I started reading this blog of course.

Re: Betsy, I am perplexed. I thought at first it was an attempt at "old is new" that didn't take but then saw the peak was in the 1950s so that doesn't fit. For some reason I thought cow when I read Betsy and couldn't place it until I googled it and came up with Charlotte's Web, which the movie version with Dakota Fanning was released in 2006. So maybe, going along with Anna's movie theory?

Good question on Betsy. Pop-culture-wise, the best I can come up with is actress Betsy Russell, who starred in the popular "Saw III" (2006), and Betsy Uschkrat, who was Miss Indiana 2006. But neither of those seems like enough to make the top 1000.

I should add I don't think anyone would conciously name their dd after a cow in a children's story but perhaps it subconciously entered their mind. Actually, I quite like a lot of the characters names from the book...Homer, Wilbur, Fern, Charlotte (of course), Brooks, Templeton, etc.

JennyAnna -- I wouldn't connect a Miles with Miley Cyrus, although with a 6-yr-old girl, I certainly can't escape Miley-mania! My husband even suggested the celeb nn of Mi Cy [pron. my sigh] for her. We'll see if that takes off.

Jen, I agree that subconscious influences are possible. Another name I forgot to mention is Betsy Beers, who is an executive producer for "Grey's Anatomy." If enough prospective parents are watching the show for Addison to have become as popular as it is now, maybe they're also subconsciously noticing "Betsy" in the credits as it rolls by.

Folks expecting their first kid will naturally assume that Miley Cyrus isn't a big deal--she's a blip on the non-parent radar--but if you have a kid in K-first-second-third grade, she's nigh-on inescapable.

Sadly, Miley Cyrus may be in rehab, or just vastly uncool, when today's newborn Mileys start K. If so they'll soon be looking for an alternative version of the name. "Miles" may well be one nickname option (like Jules is used for Julie). So a boy Miles might have girl classmates who are also called Miles--just a heads-up on that possibility.

It's too bad, because I do like the name Miles very much, in the abstract--but there are a lot of ways the name could turn out disappointing for a 2008 baby's parents.

Betsy--huh! I wonder if it's the influence of "Ugly Betty"? A little twist on that, in its first year as a popular American TV show? ("Betty la Fea" has obviously been popular much longer in other markets.)

Walter Cronkite's wife's name was Betsy and she died in 2005.

Betsy was the name of the possessed daughter in "An American Haunting."

Could either of these references be unobscure enough for the name to rank in 2006, and then not rank again? I guess they could have possibly been just obscure enough for the name to only show up in 2006 and not '07.

Oh, golly, it never occurred to me that the Miley phenomenon could get mixed up with handsome "Miles". But parents of boy Miles's needn't worry. They can always default to a nickname like "Milo", which is also impressive and a good name in its own right...

Just a technical related comment-Laura, when I put the new site into Google Reader, it shows up as untitled. Is there a fixable reason for this? does anyone else have this problem?

Well, I'm going to break with the conversation and ask for some name advice. What do you guys think of Dorothea Lisette? (I pronounce it li-SET. Not techincally correct, I know). I posted it elsewhere and didn't get much response, so I thought I'd ask some other NEs!

re: Dorothea Lisette.

I love the rhythm of the name, and Lisette is lovely. In all honesty, though, Dorothea has a bit of a fusty ring to me. What do you think of Theodora? Same meaning, same rhythm with Lisette, but it strikes me as a little fresher for some reason.

I like Dorothea with Lisette. Theodora sounds fresher but it also sounds a little bit...I'm not sure. Trying to hard? I guess it does give you great boyish nicknames.

Regarding the earlier nickname discussion--a lot of those questions about segue-ing into an adult name has come up in our house with regards to my Ned fixation. We keep thinking we could use Edison (which I like more than Edward, although Edward is growing on me) and get Ned (thus 2 names I really like) but we have a friend named Ned who says its always a hassle even with Edward convincing people that Ned and Edward are the same guy.

Even getting Bram from Abraham (another of our choices) might be an issue. apparently my Triple-great grandfather rearranged his first and middle names b/c he couldn't get people to stop calling him Abe. Then again, I grew up with a kid whose family successfully convinced us to call him Topher from Christopher, so I have fewer concerns about the Abraham/Bram thing.

I just started teaching large college classes and for the first time faced using the middle name as a first name and strange nicknames all year long. They are HARD. even when they want a normal nickname or no nn at all.

Hardest name of the year? A lovely young lady who wanted to go by a nickname form of her middle name. To make it harder? It was a cutsey nickname that was really hard to use with a straight face in a professional situation.

If you really care, I think you are better off using a name that is nickname-proof. Gideon anyone?

sorry about that comment--it got out of hand. I didn't realize how much I had to say until I got into it.

"Edison" will sound like "Addison" to a lot of folks in the 2010s. Bear that in mind. Probably not a deal breaker, but worth considering.

Also bear in mind that using historical and geographic names will inevitably invite questions about your particular interest in, in this case, the inventor and/or the New Jersey town. If you have such a particular interest, excellent; if you don't... answering questions about them is going to get tedious, fast. And if your utility company is Southern California Edison, for example, the name may remind some folks of their power bill rather than your son! Again, probably not a deal breaker, but worth factoring in to the decision.

DH and I are both science geeks (ecology and geology/engineering), so Edison works for us. Our current middle name choice for Edward would be Mandela so we'll probably get questions no matter what. I hadn't thought of the power company thing--none of the power companies in the 3 states we've lived in have been called Edison anything.

And using Ned could take care of a lot of that. That extra syllable between the two names beginning with E (DH's last name) seems to make a big difference in how it rolls off the tongue.

Another Amy--

Why are you calling college students by their given names and nicknames anyway?

I taught at the university level for thirty years, and I always called my students by their surnames and honorifics. They were all adults, and none of them was my friend (although some of them later became friends and even colleagues). Besides which I'd be damned if I would call a grown woman Precious or Princess or whatever her parents bestowed on her. Not to mention the years when half the class bore the name Mohammed.

I myself am absolutely infuriated when someone I don't know, a store clerk, a receptionist, whoever, calls me by my first name. IMO opinion it is rude, disrespectful, and presumptuous. When I feel that first names are appropriate, then I so indicate.

Certainly when I was a university student, all the professors referred to us students by honorific and surname. I spent 25 years teaching in the deep south and followed the same practice. Down south there is a sort of mid-formality when one is too close for surnames and yet not really friends (such as co-workers). Then one says Miss Jane and Mr. Claude, but never just Jane or Claude. Children are also taught to call their parents' adult friends as Miss Mary or Mr. Tom. Small children addressing adults by their first name alone puts me on tilt.

Perhaps time has passed me by, but from my perspective, my students were both adults and (at least initially) strangers, and so deserved the formal respect of their surnames and honorifics.

Miriam,

I've known students who were at schools where honorifics were used with students but i'm at a large state school where that doesn't appear to be the case--or isn't in any of the classrooms I've been in. Nor can I remember being a student in a class like that myself (either in the South or in the Midwest, the regions I've lived in). I'm sure there are some.

If I get too many students wanting to be called silly nicknames (ok, not as silly as Precious--it *was* derived from her middle name), I probably will switch over. Maybe its more common in some disciplines than others?

Another Amy--

At the small, private university that I went to, all of the professors also called us by our fn/mn/nn. Whatever we chose to be called.

And often they invited us to call them by their first names as well.

Neither I nor any of my classmates had any problem with that.

In fact, at that time in my life, I didn't care to be called Miss Surname at all.

Miriam-

I also was never called Miss Surname at a university, and thank goodness! Often I was the only female in the room, and being called "Miss" would have felt condescending.

That was in the midwest. Now that I live in the south, I still have not adjusted to being called Miss *or* Ma'am.

Julie

In defense of Betsy, it *is*, as Laura wrote, a "classic" name with a long history. I've always liked it because of its popularity in colonial America (Betsy Ross and others) -- just like Abigail (as in Adams). I've never cared for Betty or Bessie, but considered Elizabeth called Betsy as a name for our second daughter. I decided not to use the name because I had a friend Elizabeth "Betsy" who tried to change her nickname to just about any other Elizabeth nickname when she went away to college. I think she thought Betsy sounded too childish.

A friend named her daughter Elizabeth Anne "Betsy". That Betsy, now a successful young career woman, seems to like her name just fine.

It may be that some of the many Elizabeths born in 2007 are called "Betsy" too and that the name hasn't declined as much as statistics for Betsy as a given name implies.

Cat: is dorothea pronounced dorothy? or like thea at the end?

as a teacher, i tend to ask students what they would like to be called too. only once this kid (high school age) tried to sell me on this nn he had just made up. luckily, it was pretty obvious. another kid wanted me to call him by his mn, but never answered to it--my guess is that he never really went by it but just wanted to try it. or he just didn't pay attention. a definite possibility.

"Small children addressing adults by their first name alone puts me on tilt."

I have worked with children most of my life (in churches, schools, camps, etc.), and I insist they call me by my first name. Why? Because I don't believe I deserve respect simply because I'm older--and because respect (when earned) is best shown in real actions, not just in words. So we talk about all that, and about how we're equals in the eyes of God so I can be Jane and they can be Maddie and Jeff, period.

I don't much like Miss, Mrs. isn't right (I don't use DH's surname), and I can legitimately be called Dr. (got a PhD), but that seems ridiculously pretentious to ask of a child. Ms. is okay, I'll accept it if parents insist, but it's not my first choice. Just Jane, please.

Miriam-- I quite like your approach. Sometimes it must seem like a losing battle to try to uphold the little civilities, but there are lots of us out here who appreciate those who do.

Although, another amy, I don't fault you for going with first names either-- it is the style you are comfortable with, and works for you.

I was part of the Boomer generation who started the regrettable slide away from what I consider to be basic standards. As a student I was charmed to be addressed by a few hold-out professors as "Miss/Ms. Osborne" in class. I think it creates an atmosphere of respect and professionalism. It is also a subtle preparation for the adult world. I love it when high school teachers do it to their students too!

Hi all,

Does anyone know the meaning of the name "Mary"? I've seen the meaning listed as "beloved" and "bitter", among others...

Thanks!

I don't think that using first names is always a sign of rudeness or loss of manners. It just represents a different etiquette, no better or worse than the old form. At university I have always been called by my first name or nickname and tutors and lecturers have also been called by theirs. The same goes for professional environments I've worked in, where all levels of employees from Executives to juniors use first names. First names are even used in job interviews and with clients etc unless the preference for surnames is expressed. Respect for superiors is just shown through actions rather than those words.

I've heard several debates about going formal in college classrooms. Just because I haven't yet, doesn't mean I won't in the future. I'm intrigued--but since I tend to sit on desks while I lecture it seems a little formal for me.

anyhow, back to first names--my BIL is expecting a son soon. I heard today they are planning on naming the baby boy Taylor. I felt like I had to mention that these days its a girl's name...at least we don't have to worry about overlap!

I thought some of you might be interested in this professor's take on the subject of honorifics in class: http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2007/07/2007070501c/careers.html

For those asking about the name Dorothea, I think it's usually pronounced just like it looks -- Dor-o-THE-a -- or contracted to Dor-THE-a. My favorite aunt was named Dorathea (DorA..., instead of DorO) after her grandmother, a German immigrant, who was sometimes called Dora. I like the name better when it's spelled as my family did -- and that spelling also is exactly the same as Theadora turned around.

I was suprised to read Another Amy's pairing of Dorothea with Lisette, as both those names are in my extended family: Aunt Dorathea had a niece called Lizette (my cousin, whose mother, btw, wrote Amy on her birth announcements and then whited it out and wrote Lizette instead). Lizette is pronounced as Li-ZET.

I'm in agreement with Miriam and Eo, particularly in regard to students not calling their professors by their first names. My husband has been teaching at the community college level for over 40 years and is *always* addressed as Mr. P. One of our sons is a professor at a private college in the East and is called Professor P. by his students. This summer he'll be teaching at a Korean university, where it would be unthinkable for a student to call the teacher by his first name.

Weighing in on the topic of formality in the academic world—I graduated from college within the last five years, spent some time in graduate school and currently work in an academic setting, and it is universal in my experience that professors call their students by their first names. As a grad student, I called all my professors by their first names, as do all the other grad students of my acquaintance—with the exception of one professor who insists upon being called Dr. LN, and that has sort of become a joke among the rest of the department. I also know several professors who are also known by their first name among undergrads (though "Professor LN" is still the default there). In fact, the professor who taught my freshman seminar as an undergrad told us to call her Sarah, and said that back in the old days it was actually considered taboo to use "Dr." or "Professor," because it was beyond obvious that anyone teaching at this university would have a PhD (just like Amanda Seligman wrote about Bryn Mawr in that article—thanks another amy, that was really interesting!) Based on my experience and that article, I can definitely see how the informal means of address is more conducive to an interactive, collaborative, dialogue-based learning experience, while the formality would foster a more authority-based, professor-knows-best experience. Depends on what you're going for, I guess. Two of the universities I've studied/worked at are in the northeast, and one in the U.K.

Did anyone see the blog entry by author Meg Gardiner, in which she discusses naming characters and provides a link to the Name Voyager? http://meggardiner.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/top-names-2007/#comments

She describes the Wizard as "wonderful", and I felt vicariously proud.

re: small children and first names

I'm a children's librarian and have had to decide what to use when I introduce myself to kids. The trend where I live for people who work with preschoolers seems to be "Miss Firstname." It really grates on me. We don't live in the South, where there's at least a tradition of using that construct; here, it seems to have spread from daycares. It strikes me as cutesy and precious.

I decided to introduce myself as Mrs. Lastname. My last name isn't difficult, and even if it were, I'd be more likely to go with Mrs. L than with Miss Jen. The preschoolers I have in storytime won't be using Miss Firstname with their teachers when they start kindergarten, and I'd rather reinforce the idea that I am more like a teacher than like a daycare provider.

sheesh. I just realized that the long comment that started the formality discussion was meant for the *last* post, which had drifted on to nicknames.

btw, I prefer that my students call me by Dr/Professor LN or even Dr. Amy. I don't have graduate students but if I did we'd use first names.

Hm, Betsy. There was a Bethzy on a Spanish-language dancing show (Bailando por un Sueño) in 2005-2006. No idea how big it was...but maybe? Supporting this theory: the Bethzy spelling is at 800-something.

I reserve my greatest approbation for those who buck the trend and decline to dispense with civilities in academia.

It goes without saying that it's possible to maintain boundaries, where appropriate, and still be accessible, unpretentious and friendly!

A little formality, dare I say even "courtliness", in such a setting is not amiss. Time out of mind, a title (Miss, Mr., Mrs.) and surname has signified respect. Were there to be more of that generally, perhaps guest speakers on campus who express non-doctrinaire views could avoid being hit by flying cream pies by some in the "tolerant" and "egalitarian" student body...

By the way, does anyone remember whether Sidney Poitier addressed his students formally in "To Sir With Love"? If he didn't, he gave the impression that he did! He was the ultimate "maintainer of standards" in that movie, to the kids' great benefit. I can't remember if it was set in the London slums, or perhaps Liverpool?

I do remember, when I first started college, being very uncomfortable calling professors by their first names, as they asked. It was just new to me. My high schoolers also have a really hard time when I tell them to call me by my first name--cuz in high school I think it is actually a rule that they have to use Mrs. and Mr. So I tell them they can call me Ms. LN or whatever. (But I hate how my name sounds like that. Because my LN starts with Ta, Ms. LN sounds like Mr.)

I really didn't get comfortable calling adults by their FN until I started my PhD and I started thinking that these folks would be my colleagues in a few years and it was also really the norm at this instutition. And yeah there is one prof who insists on being Dr. LN. I think it may have something to do with African American tradition or just feeling like she needs that show of respect in a white-dominant university.

Where I grew up (not in the south), day camp "leaders" were called Miss and Mr. FN. I think it's cute b/c it reminds me of that context, but I can see how it could be a sign of being less than Ms/Mr/Mrs LN. These folks were usually younger--college age I think.

Oh, also, where I grew up, adults are generally called aunty and uncle. This includes strangers, clerks, parents' friends. I think of it sort of like the Miss and Mr. of the south. I like it and I think some folks hold very strongly to it--that adults must be addressed like this. I think that with my kids I will hold to it to some extent.

Eo -- Re: To Sir with Love. It was set in London's East End and according to this bit from the screenplay, girls were addressed as Miss and boys' by their surnames.

"...we are all going to observe
certain courtesies in this classroom.

You will call me
Sir or Mr. Thackeray.

The young ladies will be
addressed as Miss...

...the boys by their surnames."

I also teach on the college level and have never used honorifics to refer to my students. Many of them don't even call me Dr. T--, which is okay with me. The only time I refused to call a student by his preferred nickname was when I taught a Caucasian young man named Trevor. On the first day of class he asked me to call him "Coon," which I immediately told him I wouldn't do. I don't know if he was aware of the racial overtones (although since he was from rural NC, I don't see how he couldn't have been), but I sure was! The next semester I read in the student newspaper that he was arrested for getting drunk and smashing all the furniture in his dorm's lounge.

Now I coordinate several sections of a graduate-level class and have the joyful opportunity to see dozens of lists of names every semester. Many of the students are foreign, so I have no idea whether they're men or women, but I get the pleasure of seeing names like Biqi, Daraya, Jiwon, Ranice, and Pai. Among the more "American" names this semester were Kerry, LaKia, Carla, Sarah, Brandy, Natalya, Pam, Ann, Mackenzie (that one really surprised me because she is at least 22 years old), Aubree (again, this one surprised me for the same reason), Eveleen, and Nathalie. Note the appearance of Natalya and Nathalie!

"Time out of mind," or at least for centuries, it has *not* been a Quaker tradition to use any honorific or signal deference based on age or rank. The most formal you could politely get would be Brother Jon, or Sister Baker, or Friend Lydia, and those apply equally to a child as to an older person.

It's not a hippified, loosy-goosy informalism that motivates this, but part of the "plain speech" egalitarian Quaker ideal--No Mr. or Mrs. or Sir (which all hark back to masters and mistresses, ew), for the same reasons Quakers famously didn't remove hats or bow heads in the presence of judges or others of rank.

Some social gestures of "civility" function to maintain unearned privileges, the unproductive barriers between people, and I'm glad to see those weakened or abandoned.

In both undergrad and grad school I called my professors Dr/Mr/Ms LN. They typically called the students by their FNs. My father taught master's and doctoral students and I believe they always referred to him as Dr LN.

After my undergrad I moved from a more western state to the south where I found myself being introduced by colleagues to students (I worked in an academic library) as Ms LN. I was horrified! It seemed so *old* to me. I quickly told everyone to please call me by my FN and frankly, I did the same to them. (In retrospect I imagine that bothered some of my colleagues, but no one ever said anything.) My supervisor even made a point my first day to say, "Please call me FN," which I found funny at the time because I wouldn't have thought to call her anything else.

The adults in my daughter's life to whom she's close (parents of friends, for example) are all called by their FNs. OTOH, my niece who lives in Maryland calls similar adults in her life Ms or Mr FN. I don't mind at all the informality of addressing someone by his/her FN and it doesn't bother me when people do it to me.

It is funny to me, though, that I seem to have trouble addressing my daughter's teacher by her FN although she addresses me by mine and signs her emails to me with her FN. I'm slowly (with 5 more weeks of school left) starting to use her FN.

Thank you very much for digging that up, Amy3! I can just hear Sidney Poitier saying that in his precise, emphatic way! Love it....

Whoa, I see I missed some comments. Enjoyed your post, Sister Melinda. I KNEW there would be pushback on this!

I was considering the wider society. But Quaker traditions are indeed fascinating, and certainly represent an alternate view...

I love this FN/LN etiquette discussion, because it's something that DH and I have disagreed over in the past. I grew up in a fairly progressive metropolitan area, and most adults wanted children to address them by their FNs (neighbors, teachers, etc.). In the rare instance that I had to use a Mr./Ms. LN (almost never Mrs. or Miss--I don't think I met more than 5 of those total in my childhood), it felt awkward, and I tried to avoid addressing them by name at all. In college, some professors went by Dr. LN, and some by FNs, but I still mostly tried to avoid addressing them by name since I wasn't sure which they preferred. They always called us by our FNs. Honestly, my opinion of a middle-aged person (truly old people got a pass, since I figured that's how things were done in "their day") who wanted to be called by their LN was that they were somewhat stuck-up and stand-offish, *especially* if they called ME by my FN. I thought it was a way of intentionally creating distance between us, emphasizing that they were older and demanded respect (whether they deserved it or not), while I was a younger peon to be talked down to.

Imagine my horror when DH informed me that I had to address his parents as Dr. and Mrs. LN (my parents insist that DH call them by their FNs). "Oh, so it's going to be like *this*," I thought. "They don't want to be family, they don't want to be friendly, and they probably don't even like me very much. Fine. Hmph." But DH, on top of being Korean (a culture which very much honors and formalizes age differences), also grew up in the South, and had the exact opposite of my experience--all adults went by LNs, and he felt awkward calling an adult by their FN, and he thought it was unimaginably rude that I would even consider calling his parents by their FNs.

Now we each understand it as two different systems of etiquette and expectations, but we both still avoid addressing each other's parents by name--it's just awkward all around.

re: formality; when I was at university for my undergrad course, lots of the other students called the professors by their first names. I think it was expected that they would do so. However, I always felt uncomfortable with this and preferred to call them Dr Lastname or Professor LastName.

Now I'm doing my postgrad we are very much expected to be on a first-name basis with our tutors. I find it a bit weird and to be honest just avoid talking to them in general!

When we were little we used Auntie, Uncle and Granny as 'honorifics'. Auntie Fran, Auntie Joanne, Uncle Thomas, Grany LastName. My boyfriend's family is the same, although they don't use their aunt/uncle's first names (they just call them Aunt and Uncle, which is fine as they only have one of each) and they refer to their grandparents as Granny/Grampa FirstName.

Of course, Quakers are and have always been part of wider American society. Quaker ideals founded Pennsylvania; Quakers drove the abolition movement, and the suffrage movement, and access to higher education for women and minorities, too. We've even had a Quaker-raised president (ahem, maybe not the best representative, but...).

It is so interesting to hear everyone's differing experiences on the use of Miss/Mrs./Mr./Ms. Personally, ever since taking a graduate level class on gender theory, I find the use of Miss and Mrs. a little offensive...I should not be defined by my marital status. But then I have relatives in the South and when I'm there they call me Miss Jennifer or Sugar, which in everyday life I would find offensive but because they are family, I view it more as a term of endearment. So I think it really is about context.

I always referred to my profs as Professor or Dr. if they preferred. I do think children should address teachers and parents whom they are not close to as Mr. or Ms. LN, unless they state otherwise.

Did you all name watchers hear the latest celebrity gossip? It seems that the Pitt/Jolie family is expecting twins! Any guesses on the names?

Growing up, I've always either called people by Mr./Mrs./Miss LN, or by "Sir" and "Ma'am," and those people in turn could call me whichever they felt like (Miss H or Amber or Miss Amber). I would even call adults my age whom I didn't know very well Sir or Ma'am, just because they were strangers. Calling them by anything else would've felt false. So I don't see the formality issue as just a status/distance issue, but as a "how well I know you and how much you know me" kind of thing.

I guess I'm pretty Asian or Japanese as far as my natural formality philosophy goes.

There is nothing wrong with giving extra respect to my elders or to the people who will be teaching me things. There is nothing wrong with being respectful to those who have more experience than me, even if I disagree with them. If they happen to look down their noses at me for being less experienced, that's their own fault, not mine, and I will not lower my standards or my own civility because of them. I go to my teachers to teach me; I do not go to them with my personal problems unless my problems are affecting my ability to do well in their class. It is not their place to affect me outside of the learning atmosphere.

On a sidenote, I had one coach who normally used first names call me just by my surname for a very practical reason: she also coached the younger set of athletes, and I had a sister who looked just like me and had a similar name in that class. My coach called both of us just by our last name (no Miss in front of it) so she wouldn't call us by the wrong name.

I wonder if there is any connection whatsoever between formality etiquette and the bestowal of names. There are parents who use straight-up nicknames as given names (Betsy, Miley), those who give a formal name but plan on using the nickname (sometimes exclusively), and those who give formal names with the intent on using just that name.

We've come a long way from Miriam's simple assertion that in her academic career, she prefers to use honorifics and surnames to address the students...

In my world view, I see such college practises as niceties, as even an "upholding" of civilization, if you will! Qualities like common courtesy and social restraint rank very high for me. Put me in Sidney Poitier's "To Sir, With Love" camp!

What's interesting about this blog is that it exposes all kinds of world views...

Hopelessly behind the curve as usual, I just heard that Angelina Jolie will be having TWINS! How a-twitter will the naming blogs be?!! And, as someone who seems to be an NE to the "Nth" degree, how thrilled must she be to have this double opportunity? Any guesses as to what they'll come up with?

Hey, Elizabeth T. you beat me to it! I just saw your post!

Oh, no, just one more. Amber the Red, I love what you wrote!

another amy -- just a thought. If Edison were the middle name, if you combined it with a first name starting with N, that could easily shorten to Ned. Noel Edison, Nigel Edison, even Nelson Edison, although the two "son"s may be a bit much.

Amber, and others connecting the use of the LN with respect or "civility"--I would simply argue that one's use of FNs or LNs need not make any statement about how much you respect a person. I think of it as a very artificial construct for showing respect, and often a very false one--I will call people by their LNs because they prefer it or if that happens to be the norm in a given setting, but certainly not out of respect. The people I have respected most in life have generally gone by FNs to me, everyone from beloved teachers, to excellent instructors, elderly and non-elderly neighbors, bosses, etc. And in terms of formality/civility, even the head of my international white-shoe law firm goes by his first name to other attorneys and support staff alike, and believe me, he is plenty well respected by people around here. If other attorneys here insisted upon being called Mr. LN or whatever, when even the head of the firm doesn't do so, it would certainly appear a bit "uppity", or at least stiff, to me.

I guess I show my respect in how I treat people, the deference I give them, how I talk about them to others. Conversely, I'll call people by their LNs who I have absolutely no respect for, if that's what they prefer, just because I don't have any interest in being confrontational.

I don't think there's inherently anything wrong (or right) with using the LN--for me, it all depends on context and what the norm is.

Like I said, all kinds of world views!

But, no takers on the Jolie-Pitt twins? I'll take a feeble stab-- "Calico" and "Jagger". I know that's not a good guess, but it's a bit hard to put myself in that household's mindset...

Since I started this thread, I'll take the plunge: Maddox, Zahara, Pax, Shiloh, Calantha (girl), and Colfax (boy).

I have way too many advanced degrees earned over the last 20 years. I have been called everything in class -- Miss, Ms, first name. In law school we were often called by our last names without titles which I found easiest-- no worries about Ms. Mrs or Miss.

I have always called professors either Dr. or Professor. NEVER by a first name. I can't think of a student who did so. It never occurred to me that I should call a professor by his first name...

I was in a small class in seminary where a male professor started out the year calling the 3 women by their first names and the 10 men "Mr. last name". THAT ticked me off as I felt it showed us a lack of respect to the women. One of my (male) friends approached the professor privately and explained to him that he either needed to call us all by first name, or all with the title. He did switch over to all first names.

My turn for Jolie-Pitts 5 and 6: Maddox, Pax, Zahara, Shiloh, Marcel (m), and Anouk (f). I'm choosing French names since she may give birth in France, and Marcel is a way of honoring her recently deceased mother, Marcheline.

Boy, I have way too much time on my hands today! But suddenly realized that what I said about different world views sounded glib and dismissive. And here I am posturing about manners! Forgive my breach

I very much appreciate hearing all your different takes on the subject, whatever they may be.

Let's see-- Maddox is of Welsh origin, Pax is Latin, Zahara I'm thinking is of African origin, and Shiloh-- is that not of Native American origin? So she could go in any direction language-wise, and French is a good guess, given her recent loss...

Brad Pitt is apparently a HUGE architecture fan and I think one of the children already has a middle name relating to that discipline? So what are the chances of "Wright" or "Pei"?

Watch for this news blip in mid-August:

"In a stunning turn of events, Pitt and Jolie will name their twins John and Mary. 'The other kids' names were a complete surprise to all onlookers; we're willing to bet these weren't what anyone was expecting, either,' their joint statement noted. Mary's middle name, Pearl, is a nod to Mariane Pearl, whose story Jolie brought to the screen; John's middle name, Sixtus, marks his place in the family lineup, and continues the "x" theme among their boys' names. Sixtus is also the latin form of Sistino, as in the Sistine Chapel."

bwahahahahaha.... it could happen!

Eo -- Nouvel (Shiloh's mn) may be after Jean Nouvel, a French architect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Nouvel

Sushi, that's excellent! :0),

I think the guesses on the Jolie-Pitt twins are very ingenious, particularly Colfax for the boy, as she obviously likes x's. She definitely seems to put a high value on being original, and has certainly been way out front so far. I'm finding it very hard to come up with anything, but here are some guesses:

Xavier
Ajax (OMG, I hope not)
Anatole

Calla
Samaria
Xanthe

Ideas for the Jolie-Pitts:
Xavier
Ajax
Anatole

Calla
Samaria
Xanthe

Lots of x's as they obviously like them. Also very unusual names... although I know Xavier is getting popular...This is really hard! I love the ingenuity so far. Particularly Sushi- LOL!

$%&^*
Sorry for the double post!

I don't have children yet but I'm very interested in baby names. I've been reading this blog and thinking about good sibling names for about a year, and here's what I've come up with:
Benton; Calvin; Katharine; Jillian.
(Possible mns are Robert, Stuart, Elizabeth)
I always enjoy reading feedback on name suggestions, so I'd like to know what everyone thinks.

Do you all really think Angelina will go with another X for a boy? It seems played out and if she has 3 boys with Xs in their name, it will start to seem cheesy. Am I the only one who thinks that?

I kind of dig Colfax but I see Amy3's point about the multiple X's. Are they telling genders? are they finding out? I think with twins you'd about have to or go nuts.

btw--found out last night that my paternal grandfather's middle name was Edward, so its moving up in the running. I'm still into Edward Mandela but I really wanted my LN in there. But its a very basic English name and its so overwhelmingly proper to be the brother of Iris Skye.

JuBo--I like Calvin Robert. hmmm, I wonder if I can get DH to like Calvin? reminds me of the Calvin from the Wrinkle in Time books...

I've read that the Jolie-Pitt twins are both girls. Has a reputable source stated otherwise? Are these invitro twins?

As for guessing their names, this reminds me of Rumpelstiltskin! Most likely names most of us have never heard or considered that someone might name their child.

I've wondered if Angelina comes up with these unusual names totally on her own (after all she is a very busy woman...) or if she hires a name consultant to do some research and provide suggestions for her. ???

It sounds like the twins will be born in France. (I read something about her having difficulty flying now.). Putting that together with Angelina's French-Canadian heritage, through her mother, and her apparent love of France, I too, like Amy 3, have thought the twins will be given French names (but probably not the most usual ones).

When is she due?

The Jolie-Pitt baby naming made me think of the movie "Baby Mama" (I feel like I shouldn't admit that I've seen that movie to this high-brow crowd!). ANYWAY, there was a jab at parents' quest for unique names in a scene where one parent called out, "Remy and Cheyenne, hurry! We have to get you to your playdate with Banjo and Wingspan!" I have to say, Banjo is kind of growing on me...

JuBo, your names seem to have very different styles to me. Do you want the names to "go together"? They have similar sounds, in that they all end in 'n'. I wouldn't choose both Calvin and Jillian, lest they end up going by Cal and Jill (although perhaps that doesn't bother you!). I have to say I did always wish my name were Jillian, as it is fancier than just plain Jill.

Did a little googling: the claim is that Angelina took fertility treatments to help her ovulate, resulting in twins. Apparently the twins are due Aug. 19, if she can carry them to term.

Jill C.-- Ha! I had heard that "Banjo and Wingspan" line from the movie, although I haven't seen the film. People must have been laughing out loud.

"Wingspan" especially is a hilarious burlesque of current naming pretensions! I believe some celebrity has actually used "Banjo" for his baby in real life, so it's not so far out.

Amy3-- "Nouvel"--- thanks, that was it. I wish they had gone a step further to Nouveaux, though...

Names for the Jolie-Pitt twins.

This could be a challenge... why? Because EVERY name they have used in the past was UNRANKED by SSA UNTIL they named their children. Maddox made it into the top 1000 in 2003 forward, Shiloh debuted last year.

Coincidence or does Ms. Jolie (notice the honorific :) ) look at the SSA page when choosing names?

I agree that guessing Angelina's twins' names is more than a shot in the dark, but I do love all the suggestions so far. I'm just going to be watching with interest to see what names they come up with, especially considering she's due only a few weeks after me, and since twins tend to come early, and first babies (like mine) tend to come late--all I can think is heaven forbid she pick one of my favorite names!

JuBo, I think all your name choices are nice, but I especially like Calvin. I think it's both cute/impish and strong/sporty, has good famous forebears, and a little quirky without being odd, so it's a standout choice to me.

I heard her say yesterday in a TV interview that they know the genders but are not publicizing that.

And I think Shiloh is of Hebrew origin. I know it is in the Old Testament. I knew a girl in elementary and middle school with this name and have always thought that it's beautiful. Of course now I would never want to use it because people would always be saying, "Oh, like Brad and Angelina's daughter?"

My guess for twin girls: Edith and Pascale.

haha, sushi! wish they darn well WOULD. Colfax and Anouk are great guesses. Anais would have been my guess if it weren't in the top 1000 (obscure provencal name- why IS it in the top 1000? it's been popping up over the last 20 years- is Nin really that well known, or is there another source I'm ignorant of?), but Anouk's great, though popular in France.

Might they do another one like Pax- say Viva? the only boys' I've got are Tycho or Caius, but Shi, Ty and Cai is a bit horrible, and Axel/Axelle don't work with Pax...

I agree that they might go French, so I scanned through Quebec's list-
Mireille, Magali, Maeva, Maelle, Maelys (diareses on the es)- if they're willing to double initials
Flavie/Flavia
Thais
Amandine
Solange
Clemence, Constance-goes with their meanings thing

Aymeric or Loic for a boy?

And what are they going to do if they stick with x for the boys? Maddox, Pax, Colfax, Lennox, Felix, Pollux?!?

Each of the Jolie-Pitt kids' names begins with a different letter, so I'm guessing the twins' names won't begin with M, P, Z or S.

Oh, no, I really hope they don't use Calla. That's my "secret" name, and it certainly wouldn't be secret after they were through with it.

I was actually thinking of this earlier, before anyone here asked - as soon as I found out it was twins, to tell you the truth. I'm such a name nerd. Thank you for bringing it up (I was feeling too dorky)!

So my thoughts on their names is that they will likely be names that most of us have heard of before at the time (Pax, Maddox), something reflecting the child's birthplace (Zahara), or a conversion name, like turning Shiloh into a girl's name from a boy's. Then again, they seem to do something new and different every time, so I'm really looking forward to what they come up with!

The best I can think of is Imogen, or maybe Ione, though they don't seem to do vowel names. I really am excited to see what they use!

As long as they don't name either of the twins Phoenix or Indigo, I'm a happy camper!!

Regarding titles, I'm with hyz that it's all a bit awkward. We live in casual California, but it feels strange for my 4 year old to call her friends' parents either Mrs. Stevenson or Jim. On her own, she's taken to calling them Caley's Mommy or Ella's Daddy to their faces. It's kind of cute actually.

Another college prof weighing in here. I typically ask my students to call me Mrs. See or Jennifer, as I do NOT have a PhD and have no reason to be called Doctor anything. I like my classrooms to be interactive and that the students will ask questions because I teach a very hard subject at a very fast pace and I want them to understand and apply the material, not just regurgitate memorized facts. This sort of environment was the sort that I learned best in. I call all of my students by their preferred name - I ask on the first day when I call roll. Most chose their first names and started the class with Mrs. See and ended it with Jennifer.

On an unrelated note, I am pregnant with #4. I find out what I'm having next week. I have no qualms with posting my last name because it is a common verb paired with a dreadfully common first name. I am not findable via Google.

The last name, See, is a headache, as nothing sounds good with it.
* Names like Christopher don't work because the nickname results in "Chris See=Chrissy"

* Many names result in odd or unfortunate words when placed with the last name. Lydia See = idiocy or literacy. Dennis See = Tennessee. Curtis See = courtesy. There are dozens like this.

* Anything with a lot of S sounds or -ee sounds or most alliterative names sound horrible with my last name. This knocks out names I love like Simon and Vanessa and Henry.

* I really don't like my in-laws, so Lucy and Peter are out.

* Middle names are fixed. Girl is ________ Jane Patricia or ________ Patricia Jane. Boy is ________ Frank(lin) or __________ Joseph. They are named for close relatives.

* First names are ideal when they aren't trendy and transcend the trends. I'm a Jennifer. I don't want my kids to have something dirt common in their generation. Nowadays, it's more about the sound-alikes than everyone having the same name, but I'm equally not fond of Jayden, Brayden and Caden due to their popularity as a group with Aidan.

* Older kids are Nathaniel Richard, Miranda Christine, Elliot Brian.

Juliana wins over Julia because Julia See sounds a lot like jealousy. I have an in-law named Juliet that I would prefer not to name her for, so Juliana beats the Shakespeare version. At any rate, this has been my very favorite name since childhood, but was nixed by the spouse when naming the first one because it starts with J, which nearly all of my family does. Now that I have N, M and E, I'm bringing it back. I'm still very attached to it. I like the Ju-li-ah-na pronunciation because here in the Midwest US, Juli-ANN-na sounds like a bleating goat holding its nose. Thus the single N.

Popularity does matter to me very much. I don't want the next Ava or Aidan, and Oliver is rising uncomfortably fast. I don't want him to be stuck with something dated. I know of at least 3 born on my other favorite parenting/names board already in the last year, and 2 others are strongly considering the name. That makes me nervous. Also, how problematic is it to have Elly-elly-Elliot and Ollie-ollie-Oliver? I don't usually shorten names, but I do things like this.

As for Alasdair, I probably wouldn't use a nickname. Nearly everyone in my extended family uses their full name except Rich for Richard and Nathan for Nathaniel. Certainly not Al and probably not Dair. I tend to pronounce this name alas-DAIR over AL-ister, and I'm not sure which I prefer. Alister has the same flow as Oliver and Benjamin, and seems to go well with See, but as written, I tend to say it the other way, which sounds funny with the last name.

I like Laura very much, but I'm concerned about the dirt common Lauren being a point of confusion for her. I like Rachel, but it's a bit common and a bit Biblical for my tastes, so I'm conflicted here, too. I love Victoria but I'm not sure I like the nicknames as much, which she is sure to get. I love Vivian, too.

I had Adam and Aaron on my list in the past. I love both, but Aaron feels trendy and Adam feels choppy and short with my last name. I really prefer the longer names for balance. Benjamin is very nice but also very recently common, which I'm trying to avoid. Benjamin also forces Joseph in the middle, since I can't really have a B. Frank or B. Franklin, even though the flow is nice! Owen and Ian are lovely, but with big brother Nathan and cousin Ethan already, they all start to sound alike.

I've always had a very hard time with boy names, and it is getting worse now that I've used 4 of my options. I just don't know.

I'll take any suggestions you have to offer.

Guesses for the Jolie-Pitt twins:

Etta (Brad Pitt's mother's maiden name, apparently)
Noe (French form of "Noah" -- for a girl, should one of the twins be a girl)
Mies (as in Mies van der Rohe -- for a girl or boy)
Rohe (see above)
Anastazie (girl)
Ruzena (girl)
Ivo (boy)
Dragos (boy)

I have absolutely no idea what Angelina and Brad will name their twins and do not care to speculate. But I would like to touch back on Quakers and honorifics for a moment.

All of my degrees are from the University of Pennsylvania, home of the Quakers. My beloved major professor was a birth-right Quaker and as such eschewed honorifics. After I received my PhD and went hither and yon throughout the country pursuing my career, he and I became close friends. Wherever I went we kept in touch by mail. In person I could avoid addressing him by name in any form, but in writing I had to put Dear Something. For quite a while I simply could not bring myself to write Dear Ted, although of course he would not have minded in the least, so I settled on Dear XYZ (XYZ being his initials, so it was like Dear FDR or LBJ or JFK). I am quite sure that he found that amusing. Eventually I did feel comfortable with Dear Ted.

The Ted in this case derived from Edward. When I announced the birth of my son Edward (named for my dear father), my professor thought I had named my son for him, and I let him continue to think that. I myself considered it lagniappe--my son by happenstance named for the two men who were my mentors and whom I loved and respected.

I had the same problem with my mother-in-law. She was in her 40s when she gave birth to her two sons (oy vey!), and so she was quite a bit older than was usual for the mother of a 22 year old son. I don't think she would have minded if I had called her Dorothy or Dot, but I was not comfortable with that. I couldn't call her Mother--I had a mother and she wasn't it. And Mrs. Surname was way too formal for a family member. So in person I called her nothing, and in writing my salutation was simply Hi!

My choice of first name or honorific and last name has nothing to do with respect. It is rather a distinction similar to the formal and familiar second person in languages like French, German, and Dutch. That is, it has to do with how well I know someone and in what context. From what I have been reading and observing, the entire concept of "being on a first-name basis"--or not--is becoming obsolete, although I will continue to adhere to it.

Another little anecdote on matters of address: last week I went to dinner with friends at a very upscale, but not stuffy, fine dining establishment. Our waiter/sommelier insisted on calling me "young lady." When a man young enough to be my son, as this guy was, calls me 'young lady," I consider it beyond condescending and patronizing, and I let him know I was displeased. He was stunned at my objection and asked (with a bit of belligerence) what then he should call me. One of my gentleman dining companions told him to try Ma'am. As it happens I was picking up the tab (which was about half a mortgage payment)and calculating the tip which I thought would have entitled me to a bit of respect. I am damned sure he wouldn't have called my 6'5" friend (whose birthday we were celebrating and who is nine years younger than I am) "young man." Indeed he called my friend "sir."

Miriam:
Well, I don't have much to add at this moment as I'm quite tired, but did want to comment on your name. I once met an optometrist who had a daughter named Miriam. He asked me: "Can you guess why I chose that name?" After a beat, he said "Because it has two "i"s in it!" and then laughed and laughed. Quite cute, actually, but every time I see your name, I can hear his laugh!

JuBo--two weeks ago I met an adorable boy, about 6 or 7 years old, named Calvin, and since then the name has moved to the top of my list. My only reservation is that it means bald or little bald one, but that could be okay if the baby was born bald, I suppose! I wish it had a more exciting meaning, but I love it nonetheless (especially as a reference to the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon!).

Another Amy--My other current favorite boy name (having just devoured the complete works of Jane Austen, followed by Stephenie Meyer's Twilight series) is Edward. My top girl name is Iris, so you and I are definitely thinking alike.

JuBo -- I know an 8-yr-old Calvin who's a real cutie. I think it's a great name now, but I probably wouldn't have felt so positively about it before knowing him.

Jennifer -- I think Laura is lovely and trend-proof. IMO I wouldn't worry about the Laura-Lauren issue. To me the -a vs the -en ending makes a big difference, and I'd be surprised if people would confuse the two. That said, maybe someone with one of these names (or the parent of a Laura or Lauren) would disagree based on personal experience.

Vivian would be my second choice of the names you mentioned, but I'm afraid it might become more popular in the coming years. I don't think the same will be true of Laura.

I wish I had great boy name to suggest, but those are always harder for me. Lots of people here don't have that problem, though, so I'm sure someone will come with good ideas (and maybe you'll have a girl so it won't matter).

Jennifer-- I can see your challenge, and the amount of thought you are putting into it is impressive.

Your instinct for multi-syllabic names seems sound. Here are a few that I like the sound of with your very handsome sibling group (congrats on lovely choices!) "Nathaniel, Miranda and Elliot".

I like your choices of Alasdair and Vivian. If Alasdair, I would definitely go with the recognized pronunciation of AL-ister, but perhaps that's just my idiosyncracy.

Theodore? Barnaby? Jonathan? (you might find it too popular, but I think it has a nice rhythm with "See", and is classic).

Frederick, Patrick, Gideon, Cormac, Roscoe, Jedidiah

Louisa, Caroline, Philippa, Jane/Johanna, Naomi/Noemie

If you ever find a name you like but don't care for the obvious nickname, you can always consult this group for less obvious ones!

Totally off all the topics, but I just heard something interesting.

You know how Nevaeh just spontaneously sprung up eveywhere at once? I just heard of a possible explanation for it: a lotion named Nevaeh. I heard it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESmmiNSsdtw Her language is a bit crude but for the most part she restrains herself. Most of the video is about "shi-teed", but at the end she rants about people looking at lotions and thinking to themselves "That's a great name! I'll name my child that!"

Just though y'all'd like to know. This might be the true origin of Nevaeh.

The Nevaeh (Heaven backward) comment is probably about the lotion Nivea (owned by the German company Beiersdorf, name branded in 1911). But where does Nivea come from as a name? Isabel Allende has a character by that name in her book The House of Spirits (published 1985), and it has also been used as a first name in real life - there's a singer and whatnot by the name.

It is most probable that both the cream and the name refer to the common Latin root "nivius" referring to snow - the paleness, pureness of its color.

Different story than the Neveah one, although the pronounciation is not probably very different.

I like Vivian, although Vivian See does remind me of Vivien Leigh, the Gone with the Wind actress.

Re Juliana, I think you're going to have a hard time getting people to consistently say "Ju-li-AH-na," even with that spelling. If the other pronunciation really bugs you, I would choose a different name.

Some suggestions are Daniella See, Rebecca See, Claudia See, Nicola See, Athena See.... You're right, See is a tough name!

Re name Laura: my sis-in-law is named Laura and she loves her name, especially as opposed to the name Lauren. Apparently the different ending really makes a difference for her. I don't think that the popularity of Lauren should detract from Laura. However, when I say "Laura See," all I can think of is pleurisy, which is a medical condition that causes chest pain. Most people probably don't make that connection, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyway.

The lotion is "Nivea," and I've never been sure if it's pronounced "ni-VAY-uh" or "NIV-ee-uh."

Miriam--I had to laugh when you mentioned your dilemma, trying to figure out what to call your professor and your mother-in-law.
My favourite professor/mentor has a hyphenated last name, making it very difficult to greet him by Dr. LN in passing. His students, therefore, started calling him Dr. FN. (Funny, because his wife, also a professor, is almost always referred to by her initials. As far as I know, both approve of their inadvertent nicknames.)
I live far away from my in-laws and can bring myself to address them as "Mom" and "Dad" in correspondence, but freeze up every time I see them in person. I lived with them for a month without referring to them as ANYTHING. It was quite embarrassing because my discomfort became quite obvious as the days went by.

Regarding all the awkwardness, which I surely feel too--I think that's one strong argument for universal standards. Just like spelling and grammar rules smooth our communication, rules of etiquette can be a nice grease for social interaction. But it only works if (almost) everyone follows the same standards. Since that's not the case anymore, we're left to forge our own way every time.

Jennifer, the See thing does present some challenges, but I think you've come up with good options. For boys, I really like Alasdair, but I would definitely go with the standard "Allister" pronunciation--I've never heard it said the other way you mentioned, and I think "Allister" is handsome and charming. Oliver is also one of my very, very favorite names--favorite enough perhaps to ignore its rising popularity--but then again, I only happen to know one young Oliver very tangentially in my social circle--maybe it's more problematic for you. I also like Eo's suggestion of Jonathan, but maybe you find that a bit plain for your tastes. For girls, I think Juliana could work fine if you love it, and can get DH to agree. And I agree with the others that Laura sounds more like a classic than Lauren, and is distinct enough not to get lost among Laurens. I do like the 3 syllable names with See, though. What about Eleanor? We're working with a similar LN (sounds like "Soh"), and Eleanor is another one DH and I are considering. Maybe it's too close to your Elliot, though. I liked the Caroline suggestion, and would also raise Catherine and Margaret (or Marguerite) as options.

Oh, and if Cat is still reading--I meant to say earlier that I love Dorothea, and I think it pairs nicely with Lisette. I don't get a "fusty" image from it at all--I get charming and quaint, and think of all the great nn possibilities, if that's your thing.

Ooops, I can't read all the comments before dashing off to work as, yes, a college professor, but as usual I have to come in from left field (I assume no one else has). There are good reasons for calling students exactly what they want to be called -- some have birth-names that assign them to a gender they do not feel is theirs, or are in the process of rethinking their heritage and going back to a culturally traditional name. And "Miss/Ms./Mrs." each have connotations pertaining to marital status or feminism that some students feel offended by. I call roll, ask what they'd like to be called, note it on the roll, and that's what I call them. That seems to me to be much more respectful than imposing a formality upon them.

For myself, I tend to go with my institution's culture of "Professor" for undergrads and first names for graduate students, on the model that academic colleagues address one another by first names in face-to-face interactions. In upper-level seminars, and with honors students, I invite them to call me Beth because, I tell them, they are now working at a high enough level to consider themselves potential colleagues of mine.

Of course, none of this stops them from addressing me as "Hey Prof!" in e-mail....

Miriam - I had the same issue with my MIL. She insisted that I call her "Mom," but that has never been acceptable to me. She is Chinese, so calling her by her first name to her face is a major insult. Mrs. See is, for one, me, and for two, not entirely accurate. She has a PhD that has gone unused since my husband was born 30+ years ago, so she technically is Dr. See. We had a giant kerfluffle over this on the wedding invitations because degrees matter so much to her circle while my mom thought it was arrogant to put the non-medical, 30 years outdated honorific down for a social event. I, like you, tried very hard not to call her anything at all for a very long time. A few times I had to get her attention, so I gritted my teeth and said, "Mom," but I never liked it. Things got better once my oldest was born, as I can now call her Grandma both to her face and when addressing my children. If talking about her to my husband, I use "your mom" and to anyone else, I use her first name.

Eo and Hyz - just to address Jonathan. That was my other choice for Nathan, actually. But now that I have a Nathan, I think Jonathan is too close in sound. I still love it, though.

Theodore is a very handsome name, but like many name, I'm not so sure about Theo See or Teddy See. Margaret in the midwest often comes out as Margrit and makes me think of oatmeal. Rebecca is also on my list, Caroline is good. Catherine is one of those many gorgeous names that is overused - there are Kates and Katies everywhere, and that's one of the things I'm trying to avoid. I actually have a longer girl list than what I posted (it was already too long!) It's my boy list that gives me headaches. Those two are pretty much it. I had Adrian and Aaron and Adam and Henry and a bunch of S names - I love Scott and Simon - but they just sound horrible with the last name or have too many of the trendy sounds or repeat sounds with my other kids. Alexander and Miranda? nope. Jonathan and Nathan? Nope. Aaron and Nathan? Nope. It's very frustrating.

Oooh, Jennifer, good point on the MIL being "grandma" thing. I'm looking forward to that. At some point I figured I'd start calling my MIL "uhmonim", which is the Korean honorific for "mother". I thought that was a decent compromise, because while I already have a "mom", I don't have an "uhmonim". But it still seemed a bit awkward, so maybe now I'll be able to switch right over to halmoni (grandmother)!

I also had to ditch a bunch of my favorite names because of the double S thing, or especially the names that end in -s, or -th, or soft G. How I'd love to name a little boy Silas--but, alas, it's not to be.

I do see what you're saying about Jonathan and Nathan, but I actually think Alexander and Miranda could sound quite complementary if you wanted to do that.

Jennifer- I sympathize and I think I would feel the same about not duplicating sounds. However, you'd be amused therefore by the SSA list of the most popular twin names. http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/twins.html
38 couples called their twins Madison and Morgan, 35 Landon and Logan, etc. 13 couples even chose Jayden and Jaylen! I think that might be a decision they come to regret...

Jennifer -- I agree with hyz that Alexander and Miranda sound very good together. I don't get an over-matchy vibe from those two.

Valerie -- Jayden and Jaylen, that's funny. There goes the nn Jay, I guess.

My MIL makes a point in front of the family to say that I am not comfortable enough to call her mom (even though every other SIL law does and there are 5 of them!) But, I don't care if she wishes I would. I have a mom, and she is not my mom. I can't wait til we can call her grandma.

I won't expect my DIL & SIL to call me mom, it's weird to my ears.

Sorry to take so long everyone! Thanks for all your comments on Dorothea Lisette. Strangely enough, Theodora seems much more fusty to me then Dorothea. I see D as unpretentious, down to earth, while Theodora is an old woman who looks like one of the ladies from Golden Girls... strange the different associations people have.

Jennifer- I think Alexander and Miranda are fine together, especially since there are more than two children. Good luck. The amount of work you're putting in is quite commendable.

Jennifer See-I love your names of your other children, I think you've done a fine job with your tough LN. I like the suggestions made of Rebecca, Caroline, and Patrick. It is difficult however trying to think of NN's Becky, Carrie, and Pat don't really work wel IMO. Oh well, i'll think and get back to you.

On the formality issue, I grew up in the Northeast. I was raised with many options-FN, Mr/Mrs LN, and Aunt/Uncle FN. It didn't mean a respect thing to me. That was how they were introduced to me so thats who they were. In elem school teachers were Mr/Mrs LN but by college it was mixed and again whatever they introduced themselves as. We were called FN by most but occasionally Mr/Miss LN. When working in day care I was always Miss LN-I thought it was too cute. The other adults often referred to each other by Miss LN too! In fact some friends I still do this. My kids do mostly FN's now because it seems silly to say Mrs. SOSO while I call them Susan. The friends mom's don't seem to mind.

Not sure on Pitt twins-I will think and get back on that one!

Great discussion! Interesting to hear how many of us teach at the university level!

another amy, I appreciated the link. A thought-provoking article!

I teach at the University of California, Santa Cruz, where use of first names is the norm, at least in the Humanities. I like that it fosters a personal and egalitarian sense in the classroom. I believe students are more likely to come to me for help and advice if we're on a first name basis.

Nevaeh's rise is linked to the appearance of a Christian Rock singer Sonny Sandoval who appeared on MTV in 2000 with his daughter who was named Nevaeh because it was heaven spelled backwards. Nothing to do with Nivea hand lotion.

Apparently alot of parents to be thought this was a totally cool and original name...In 2001 it leaped into the top 1000 names.

I see that Nevaeh again made it into the top 1000... now at 891 up from 992. More new parents who can't spell backwards...

whoops! That should be Neveah is at 891.

Caren -- Thanks for the reminder about the link to the article another amy posted earlier. I had meant to read it, forgot, and then got back to you after your comment. I agree, very thought-provoking. Thanks, another amy!

Grrr. That should have been "got back to it after your comment."

Jennifer: Vanessa? Okay, this is really hard! And I thought I had it bad trying to stay away from -a names! It seems like longer names are better right? I think because the boundaries of the first name become clearer and the two names together are less likely to sound like a word. -a names seem to work great for you too. I'm jealous!

Jennifer: Amber? Liana? Christina? Tamara? Elena? Elaina? Christopher? Michael? Abigail? Josephine?

hi all

i so enjoy the witty banter of this blog.

i(we) are having a baby girl in june..finally..
yay!!!!

how do everyone feel about the name
georgianna...or georgiana..is the nn george
to cutesy or not appealing for a girl?

is georgia better?

my home and my life are quite spare..zen like

but luxurious... do you think geogianna fits

better half ..or other half of the equation
doesnt care as long as it is a g name
(jewish tradition)

thanks
gabi

Re awkward (more or less) family name issues--

My name is Miriam, but I have been called Mimi since birth. I did not even know my name was Miriam until I entered school, at which time the revelation of my name came as a horrid shock, and I wept bitter tears.

I am waiting and hoping--and hinting (actually it goes beyond hinting to nagging)--for a grandchild. Much as I disapprove of small children calling adults by their given names, I am thinking that if I am ever blessed with a grandchild, I will encourage the use of Mimi rather than granma, nana, the New Orleans standard maw-maw, or, heaven forfend, bubba. Or maybe Oma Mimi....

My DIL, with my blessing, calls me Mimi as does the rest of her family including her 8 year old nephew Joseph Isaiah (I think that's a splendid name btw). The latter makes me grit my teeth, but I keep silent. Peace in the house....

However, if my son called me Mimi, I would thump his head (well, metaphorically). I sign correspondence addressed to both of them Mommy/Mimi, and they collectively call me Mommy/Mimi when they write/email back.

My son calls his father Dab, a childhood nickname that stuck. I considered it a bit of an affront, because Edward never made a cute nickname for me, hence the "mommy" (as cute as it's gonna get), although sometimes I am just plain mom.

Gabriella, I think Georgianna is a lovely name, but I certainly wouldn't call it "spare" or "zen"--more flowery and effusive. For "spare" with a similar feel, I might go for Gia, or something to that effect. I could see George on a girl as a NN, but I'd be much more likely to do Georgie/Georgy--both because it's tomboyish without being gender-bending, and because of that charming Seekers "Georgy Girl" song which I've always enjoyed.

Hmmm, but on the other hand if you describe your own style as "spare and zen," your daughter might well enjoy a more baroque name that's clearly her own, in contrast to all that. There are a lot of nickname possibilities in Georgiana (one N is fairly standard): George, Georgie, Gia, Giana, Gina, Anna, Jory, and hey, for her goth-girl phase, "Gory," of course!

Sparer G names for a girl might include Grey, Grania, Glenna, Gem, Greta, Gwen, Gita...

I'm with hyz--Georgianna makes me thing of debutants (sp?) and flowery dresses. A mix of Victoriana and the deep South. I like George on a girl, or Georgie (Nancy Drew anyone?).

I'm glad some of you got reminded to read the article!

I've also remembered this week of a day when I was 13 and was introduced to the family of a friend of mine. Her mother wanted me to call her by her first name and I recall my father (a left wing radical by local standards) and I just looking at each other like, is she nuts?

Miriam--Mimi is a very cute grandma name!

I always call my in-laws by their fn's. They are definitely not parents and it would be weird to use Mom or Dad.

Ok, a little random here, but Jennifer's comments about matching FNs with LNs got me going on this topic again.

I love the name Hyacinth. I really do. I don't know if I could get DH to agree to it, but even if I could, is Hyacinth Soh too much of a tongue twister? Heaven forbid the child had a lisp, right? What do you guys think? And beyond the pronunciation issue, is it just too out there? Would my young Hyacinth grow to hate me? lol.

Unrelated question--Ivy is currently back in position as our frontrunner. So, I'm wondering--what image do you get in your mind when you think of an Ivy? What kind of a girl/woman is she? I have my own ideas of course, but I'm wondering how it strikes others.

Thanks for humoring my perseverations! :)

Miriam- If you don't mind we a