The Baby Name Wizard

I also channel Zilpha Keatly Snyder's book "The Changeling" when I hear of the name Ivy. For me, it's a great association, although I think the character was somewhat wild. It's probably been close to 30 years since I read the book, however, so my memory of it may be off.

Thanks again for all the comments, guys. :)

Tirzah--the poison ivy thing actually worries me the most, more because it could become a rather annoying joke very fast, than any actual teasing. I'm also an avid gardener, but have always felt very fondly towards ivy--we have large amounts of it in our yard, too. I know it can be invasive, as you mention, but I guess my thoughts tend towards its better aspects--lush shady ivy beds, ivy covered halls, churches, and cottages, etc.--so it gives me the warm fuzzies. :) And the I.V. thing is interesting. DH is a doctor, too, but it doesn't seem to bother him--to me, the emphasis/pronunciation is different enough that one doesn't immediately call the other to mind. Although, I guess if she grew up to work in medicine, the I.V. thing could become an annoying joke, too? Oh, and thanks for reminding me of that Survey book. I remember seeing generally positive things about Ivy, but I should go back and look at that. I think it only had troubling things to say about one name we loved--Fern. I think Fern was supposed to be geeky, awkward, and unattractive, or something to that effect. Not my impression, at all....

Eo--I love your description of Ivy--I don't want to try to predetermine personality, but I sure wouldn't be disappointed if she grew up to fit your "Ivy" impressions. As for looks--I think it is pretty safe to say our children will have dark hair and eyes. With my blue eyes being recessive, and DH only contributing brown eye genes, our kids should be Bb, phenotypically brown, but possibly able to give us blue-eyed grandchildren someday. :) And although I've seen some half Asian/white kids with nearly blonde hair, it always seems to turn at *least* mocha brown by adulthood, but usually darker. It seems I've had a disproportionate number of friends with this heritage in my life--but if someone knows differently, I'd be interested to hear it. Not that it's all that important, except that like some others here, I DO often have strong appearance connotations with names, and I like that Ivy seems like it won't be incongruent with those connotations. I think name/appearance pairings that don't "fit" can be either charming or jarring, kind of like the ethnic name "clashes" we talked about awhile ago--but for my part, I'd rather play it safe and avoid incongruous names where possible.

Jill--I appreciate your thoughts on Hyacinth. Flower names certainly are popular now, and I hope you're right that Zinnia starts to pop up a bit more--I like that one. As for not saying FN and LN together that much--it's fairly true, but I think the times you do say it tend to be important--introducing yourself for the first time, addressing yourself to professional contacts, etc. Sigh.

Valerie--I also love how soft and pretty Hyacinth is, and it does contrast with Ivy in that way. But then I wonder what effect, if any, having such disparate names would have on a little girl. Would Hyacinth become more quiet and meek than Ivy, whose name has more connotations of strength and confidence? If I had to pick one of those options for my daughter, I'd pick strength and confidence--but maybe it's delusional to think naming has such an impact at all....

Beth--OMG, I LOVED Zilpha Keatley Snyder's books as a kid, and I totally forgot that there was an Ivy in The Changeling. In fact, I still have that book (along with ZKS's others) that I saved to give to my children. How neat. I think ZKS does such an amazing job of capturing the mystery and imagination of childhood, along with intelligently addressing the more mundane interpersonal challenges that children face.

Anouk--I see what you're saying, but I actually don't worry too much about any of the names you mentioned being time-stamped, because they have generally all been relatively popular in the past, and I could easily see most of them as being my grandparents, aunts/uncles, or little kids. I would worry about the current popularity of some of them (as we've been discussing), but not their actual timelessness. And specifically regarding Ivy, I actually see this as a positive thing, because it helps Ivy to fit in and blend a little with the crowd while still being rather unusual. That suits me, because we're not looking to have a really "out there" name, just one with a little distinction.

Elizabeth T., just saw your comment, too--another ZKS fan! Maybe it's just me, but when I was a kid I'd rather have been identified with the wild child than the tame one--better Ivy than Martha, and better Pippi than Annika, if you know what I mean.

Tirzah--As for Caspian, I've always loved the name (not only from the C.S. Lewis I read as a kid, but because of the pictures of the Caspian Pony in the horse breed books I used to obsess over), and I do hope it will see somewhat of a boost, but not too much. I think it has a lot going for it now--it's a place name, ends in -n, has some great NNs, and is a little soft, like many popular boy names today.

Guest--on Mary Flora and Shirley Anne--of the two, I'd pick Mary Flora. Shirley is pigeonholed as one of those 50s diner names/older baby boomer names to me, so I don't find it all that alluring. However, if you're going for a rockabilly hip thing or something like that, Shirley might be perfect. Mary is a lot more timeless to me, but a little unexpected today, which is nice. I want to love Flora because of the meaning, etc., but I'm not there yet--I like it, but the sound of it is a little clunky to me. Are these meant to be dual FNs, or FN MN? I like Mary Flora a lot more as a FN/MN combo than a dual FN--but in either case, beware the initials MF. :/

Hyz - I have never known an Ivy, but I do know an Iva - she is studious, with long brown hair, but wickedly funny, too. I personally like Iva better than Ivy, a plant I don't much care for.
Re: Shirley Anne - since that's my mom's name, I think of a 60-year old woman, not a baby.
Re: FN vs LN - my parents very much believed that children were as important as adults, and introduced their friends to us by FNs. Still, if I didn't know an adult well, I always used Mr/Ms LN. It wasn't even a sign of respect so much as infamiliarity. I generally expect that people I meet in a social setting will call me by my FN, and I do the same. However, in a setting where my role is clearly not equal to that of the other (visiting a doctor who, even though providing a service, has vastly more knowledge of medicine than I; going before a judge; speaking with a police officer; or interacting with a professor, to name a few), I will use the appropriate title. OTOH, I volunteer with the kids at church, and I abhor being Mrs. LN, and almost equally abhor Mrs. FN - I'd rather just be FN.
Re: names of exes that are now off the table - dh and I were talking about this last night, as we're still debating boys' names. One name that I like has a positive association because of a friend that I once wished had been more, and he quickly nixed it. I told him that I was too boy crazy to avoid any names of boys that I liked. Fortunately, being a 70s child, most of the boys names are too date-stamped for us to want to use anyway.
We are halfway through this pregnancy, and are pretty set on a girl name, but we're just not thrilled with the boy options. We have pretty strict criteria (that would probably make some of you cringe) - 2-syllables; non-shortenable; good meaning; and within the top 100 of SS, but preferably not in the top 25.
Our problem is that three of our favorite names do not fit the bill - Luke, Calvin, and Ethan.
Ethan is quickly falling out of favor, due in part to its popularity, but mostly because it doesn't sound very strong when compared to our other two (Isaac and Audrey).
I adore Calvin, but there are three problems with it - can be shortened to Cal, means bald, and it's my sister's boy name if they ever have another child. That wouldn't bother me so much, since they were supposed to be done, but she had a miscarriage earlier this year and realized how much she wants more children. I just don't think I can use her name.
Down to Luke - it's just so short. I don't want to use Lucas (it doesn't sound as masculine as Luke), but Luke is so choppy. Finding a middle name that flows with it is nearly impossible - ideally, I'd like a 2-syllable name that has the emphasis on the second syllable, but the only name I can think of is Alain, which blows the whole masculine ring to the name. I think I'm too particular.
That's where we are in this whole naming process - we're not finding out the gender, so we have to be prepared. Any help would be much appreciated.

Kathleen,

How about Gavin (white hawk), Caleb (dog, meaning loyal - great figure/role model in the Bible) or Justin (just)?

I like Isaac, Audrey and Caleb the best.

Kathleen- do these fit the bill?
Gavin: possible meaning "white hawk", an Arthurian knight, #32
Henry: germanic elements home and leader/chief, #91
Carson: surname, but I see this as a general American name, chosen for its namesakes (the only I know is Nancy Drew's father, but there must be others!), #90
Ian or Sean: gaelic variants of John, "God is gracious", #74 and 75
Erik: from elements "ever" and "chief/ruler", #83.

Just below 100, there are Seth, Marcus, Colin, Nolan, Trevor, Jared and Miles. Some of the meanings there are a bit ambiguous, but it would depend on your values and how you chose to interpret them- eg Jared, which means "descent", but in that he was a close descendent of Adam.

That was fun! Hope it helped. With your guys, my favourites are Gavin, Erik, Marcus and Nolan.

regarding exes and names... DH doesn't really admit to girlfriends before me (LOL!) but the other day admitted he dated a string of alternating Amys and Alisons (before marrying an amy). But since we are having a boy, neither of those are an issue.

Most of the guys I dated had dated names (brother names to Amy and Allison!) but a few that I actually like and sound good with LN are Christopher and Emil. Christopher actually sounds really good with LN--which is quite a feat. Oh well.

Wow this board has gotten long while I was busy this weekend.
Hyz-I don't care for Hyacinth but do like Cynthiana if you were looking for the "th" sound. I think Ivy is perfect for your dd as you've had many posts on her heritage. I think of a dark-haired, bookish but cute, little girl who grows into a wonderfully confident, sometimes over-assertative young lady(think of Veruca Salt for that).

Miriam-I am sorry about what your parents did to you. I think that a child should know his/her full name even if nn is used almost exclusively. And it was very WRONG of the teacher to ERASE your name/identity. It would have been much more acceptable for her to say something like "Don't you want to use your whole/longer name honey?" This still would've caused you confusion but would not have ERASED you.
C&C-I think the whole phoneme thing makes a lot of sense. Jennifer, you should think about this. I think your name should have a strong vowel sound like David, Charlotte, Brian, Wendy. It doesn't have to be a long sound just very distinct like your Elliot. Pron=EL-EE-ot S-EE The short a, i, and e sounds can become "schwa" sounds in that they are indistinct.

As far as names not used because of associations, there were a lot of names I did not use because of ex-boyfriends, children I taught in preschool, old-lady feeling, names I would never use because I don't like the sound, etc.
As far as my demographic-put me in the College degree, stay-at-home mom with 2 kids who grew up in the Northeast. I am also not a teen but probably younger than many here. I've always loved words and names and such.
To Guest-Mary Flora and Shirley Anne are not my taste.
Kathleen-Blythe had many great choices in her post. I was thinking Eric as I read your original post. Is it too close to Isaac though?
Jennifer and Gabi-I am still trying to think of some ideas for you and will post later.

It's really annoying to have to click "Comments", scroll to the bottom, Click Page 2, then scroll to the bottom again, just to read the latest posts.

Tirzah said: "It's really annoying to have to click "Comments", scroll to the bottom, Click Page 2, then scroll to the bottom again, just to read the latest posts."

I completely agree!

And as for demographics, I'm in my late 30s, born in the Midwest although grew up in the Southern Plains, now live in the NE. I have a master's degree, but I'm not an academic.

sushi & Clara – Thanks for the info on Banjo and Adelaide! It’s interesting that they both have Australian associations, even though they’re not commonly used there. Adelaide is one of my favorites and I have to admit to really liking the sound of Banjo. I think it could be a cute nickname under the right circumstances.

My grandmother was a Shirley Anne, so it fits into the not-yet-ready-for-revival category for me too. I could see it working in certain circles though. I like Mary a lot, but to my ear it doesn’t pair with Flora very well.

miriam - I was quite amused by the name dilemma on Desperate Housewives. I was especially amused when Susan's friends asked what nn she would use - May or Nerd?

too funny

Also, I had a high school student in the mid-90's named Caspian. It is the only time I have ever come across someone with that name. An interesting note, his aunt (a year older) was in the same class and her name was Skye. Definitely an unusual duo in that particular town.

I love Mary, and don't mind Flora, but I don't think Mary Flora is a great combination. Probably the only famous Mary Flora is Mary Bell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell) ...not the greatest association.

Even ignoring the 11-year-old manslaughterer issue, it doesn't really flow. I'm just going to throw out some suggestions that you might like...of course, these are total shots in the dark based on your two suggestions.

Mary Florence
Mary Fleur
Mary Florentina
Mary Cornelia
Mary Elora
Mary Lydia
Mary June
Mary Aurelia

Shirley Ann is OK, too 50's for my tastes, but I guess that could be kind of cool, too. I think I might go for a more distinctive MN (can you imagine how many women there are out there called Shirley Ann?)

Maybe it's because I'm a geek (I play video games, and when I was younger I read comic books), but Ivy is very much a "bad girl" name: sexy and deadly.

This is off-topic, but I found a good baby name blog. I call it good because the author(s) say something intelligent in pretty much every post, and isn't just various lists of names and insults and various states of shock toward those names. http://www.badbabynames.net/

Oh wow!! I was away from the computer (besides quick email checking) for a few days and come back to a couple of hundred fascinating posts. Regardless of its source, I love the high-level of discourse on this board. I stumbled over here on accident, but I keep coming back because of the conversation.

For the record, I'm in Evie, Madeline's, etc. age bracket, but am en route to being among the "over-educated" on the board as I'll begin pursuing my second (and probably not final)graduate degree in the fall.

As for honorifics, I've both had them used and not had them used in most every setting I've been in (including college and grad school). I always use them unless/until I'm instructed to do otherwise. In fact, I have a high school teacher who I have gotten to be good friends with in real life (along with his kids, etc.), and even though he signs emails to me with his FN, I can't bring myself to use it.

for hyz, I'm one more who things Hyacinth Soh is a bit too difficult. Ivy, though, brings to mind a great girl: smart, sweet, a sharp sense of humor, the sort of girl who has effortless beauty and grace without being either overly-girly or overly-tomboyish (not that there is anything wrong with being either), a natural leader with a certain spunk.

Apologies for typos and bad grammar instances above. Oh, I still wish we had editing capabilities!!

thanks Mia

i didnt know about Mary Bell

someone just told me on another forum that "Flora" is also an English margarine

I was thinking of the goddess of flowers when i thought of it though

Anouk

I think that -ee sound isn't the stamp that will date Ivy.

Jennie, Ashley, Shirley, and Betsey are all examples of -ee sounds that were popular in different eras. (Timmy, Jimmy, Petey, Willie ...I could go on with boys too.)

I think Ivy is more apt to be clustered into "flower" and "gem" names (Violet, Iris, Ruby, Pearl) and that is what will ultimately date stamp it to the early 2000's.

That being said, it is a lovely name and simple too. (Note other objections above).

Shirley hit the top 1000 this year for the first time since the 1930s. It's definitely coming back!

Hyz, in case you were still considering Juniper, there is a fantastic entry regarding its origins on Wikipedia. Apparently, Juniper has been used as a name for many centuries in translated form: Ginevra (Italian variant), Genefer (old English variant), Genevrier (French variant).... So interesting!

Also, the character in the cartoon The Life and Times of Juniper Lee was actually modeled after the cartoonist's wife, an Asian American. Somehow, that makes a negative association better for me! So how does Phoenix, Indigo and Juniper sound? Ha ha, just kidding. No more kids for us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniper_%28given_name%29

*Madeline* - One tends to get a lot of weird looks if you say you're interested in baby names and are clearly about 22 years old, exactly! Everyone seems to think that if you haven't had a baby yet, you can't possibly be interested or knowledgeable about names. They should just read this board - I had no idea how old either you or Harriet were until you both told us. In fact, I only get a sense of how old anyone is by the mention of who in their lives are having babies - I love that we have teenagers to grandmothers on this site.

Just read the rest of the comments....

I have so many names I can't use based on prior association - I can't imagine what it must be like for teachers! I was a camp counselor for several years in high school, and I'm not going to name a boy Gabriel or Sean. You'd think Gabriels would be angelic, wouldn't you? And, funny enough, Adelaide is actually a name I adore, but could never use because it's my ex's scary uber-hipster older sister.

Re: Betsy - My teenage sister is a Betsy, nn'd out of Elizabeth, but named to get the nn specifically to honor my mother's favorite cousin. She doesn't like it much, as it's pretty old fashioned to a high schooler's ears, but I think as she grows up, she'll see how great it is to have a name that's not Kaitlyn T. or Emily K. Seems like people appreciate that sort of thing later in life rather than earlier. Though if Betsy and other names of its ilk come back, maybe she'll appreciate it a little earlier! I'm just afraid she'll try to go by Elizabeth when she hits college, when she's such a spunky, hip, edgy and cosmopolitan Betsy.

Katie and *Madeline*—I can totally identify with the weird looks you get, being interested in baby names at a young age. Thank goodness for internet booksellers, I remember buying a name book at a bookstore sometime before the online places became mainstream—very awkward (I was probably about twelve years old...) I'm getting married in a few months, so baby names are suddenly somewhat more relevant (and it's nice having a definite sense of what your kids' last name will be!) but we probably won't be ready for a few more years—I'm just shy of 25, and the only people in my graduating class who are having kids yet are the super religious people. I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea, so when we have company over I turn my baby name books with the spine facing in on the bookshelves.

Regarding exes—I have one from high school named Gabriel, a name I really love. In fact, I think I might have initially become interested in him because I loved his name—I had heard of him before I actually met him, and thought, "ooh, there's a guy named Gabriel at our school? That's sexy!" He also had a really beautiful surname, which I won't disclose because it's quite distinctive—but it had an embedded word in it that has a very romantic meaning (think something along the lines of "prince" or "castle" or "knight"—that kind of association).

Do any of you NEs secretly wish your husband had a certain type of surname, which would lend itself to a certain type of given name? I do have a weakness for aristocratic-sounding surnames, as well as those that incorporate beautiful imagery.

Thought you guys might be interested in this, although I'm not sure how reliable it is.
http://celebrities.ninemsn.com.au/?blogentryid=138514&showcomments=true&...

Apparently Brad Pitt has vetoed the names Castor and Pollox for the twins. Those of you who guessed that there may be an x in there were on to something!

Also you can add me to the list of early 20s, university educated folk around here. I compeltely agree with people thinking you're insane for being into names when there's not the slightest sign of babies coming.

"I compeltely agree with people thinking you're insane for being into names when there's not the slightest sign of babies coming."

Why should an interest in names and naming practices be restricted to the pregnant? I am sure that the membership of the American Name Society is not made up entirely of the gravid. Onomastics is a field of scholarship in which names and naming practices are examined from cultural, historical and linguistic points of view. Much of interest can be learned by analyzing given names, surnames, place names, brand names, scientific names and so on.

An interest in names need not be confined to selection of names for one's own offspring when their appearance is imminent. Besides which, it is perfectly understandable that just as young girls fantasize about their ideal wedding long before a suitable husband appears on the horizon, just so they fantasize about their possible children even before the age of puberty. And if there are no newborn children as yet to name, well, even very early in life there are dolls and teddy bears that need names, and their little owners ready to supply them.

While books like Laura's have the primary purpose of helping parents choose suitable names for they children, such books can also be used for other purposes such as cultural and historical analysis.

And of course the people who write fiction are interested in choosing the names of their characters. And the people who join SCA need to pick out a name which is authentic for the time and place of their alter-ego. Speaking of naming fictional characters, I was interested in the use of names and naming as the theme for Sunday's Desperate Housewives because I always suspected someone on that show is a NE. The names of the characters, particularly the children, are so exactly spot on. OTOH E.R. Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros is widely regarded as a near-great pioneering work of fantasy and a precursor of Tolkien's fantasies, but it almost universally criticized for the miserable job of naming that Eddison did. The names are generally considered to be "irksome flaws" as one reviewer put it.

So those people who think that the pre-pregnant are insane to be interested in names are either ignorant or unimaginative or something. There are many reasons for having an interest in names that have nothing to do with naming one's own babies. After all, as a child I got immense amusement value out of snarking at the bad taste revealed in many of the birth announcements of the Sunday NYTimes--at least IMO it was bad taste.

I don't like Ivy because it sounds and looks somehow "spiky" to me. I think it's because, written out at least, the word looks so very short. "I" is such a slim letter that it almost might as well not be there, and two-letter names are way too short for me. If it started with a WIDER letter, like A-for-Amy, I'm pretty sure I'd like it more. Or if it were spelled Ivie. I know that this is quite weird of me!

Amber the Red--although I don't have those same associations with Ivy, at least not strongly, I can definitely see what you mean. I don't love that about it (it's one of the Ivy downsides for me), but I think I can get past it because when I was a teenager, that's the sort of association I probably would've loved--and I think it's one that can be "grown out of" if one chooses. But still, it's a concern.

Ash--it's your Ivy association that I have most strongly (plus I throw in a good dose of "outdoorsiness" and hardiness that I like), and that I'm hoping other people might share. And I guess it's good I asked about Hyacinth here--I keep trying to convince myself it's fine, but the outside input is probably less biased. :)

Tirzah--I thought I could get DH to bite on Juniper, but he wasn't too excited about it. I did read that wikipedia entry when we were discussing Juniper before, though, and it's really very cool. And for the record, I think Phoenix, Indigo, and Juniper are an awesome set--go for it!! ;)

SusieQ--I know what you mean, and this is another downside of Ivy for me, esp. paired with such a short LN. I'm trying to embrace its short and snappy look as a good thing, but I do generally have a preference for longer names, esp. unshortened 3 syllable names (like Hyacinth!). I just wish we could find a name DH and I were both happy with, without so many potential issues/concerns!

Finally, I love all the young closet NEs. I've been surreptitiously buying name books since I was a kid, and facing their spines to the shelf so people wouldn't see, and making vast lists or spreadsheets of names for kids, pets, etc., too. I was never obsessed with babies, just names, but people really make that assumption that you must have procreation on the mind if you're looking at names, and that can be awkward when you're 10, 15, 20, or 25. It's only recently that I have any "excuse" for my name obsession--and you think a life as an NE would've prepared me better for this experience! And EVie, yes, I do wish that either my DH or I had a different LN, so that so many of my favorite names wouldn't be knocked out right off the bat!

I utterly agree that a fascinations with names need not be linked to the imminent naming of children. I can't remember NOT being interested in them, and by eleven or twelve had started my well-thumbed collection of name books...

Interestingly, some of my favorites didn't even mention the "baby" angle in the title, like Dunkling and Gosling's "Dictionary of First Names", and the "Collins Gem Dictionary of First Names".

But my all-time favorite was Maxwell Nurnbeg and Morris Rosenblum's simply titled "What to Name Your Baby". It was first published in the Fifties and received many re-printings.

Nurnberg and Rosenblum were chatty, almost folksy in their approach, but the depth of their research was impressive. They made names live on the page. Decades later I almost named our son "Barnaby" based on the fragment of Edmund Spenser they had dredged up--

"This day the sunne is
in his chiefest hight
With Barnaby the bright."
-- Epithalamion

Presumably, name-o-philia is coupled with interest in words and language in general, but it's an even more fun sub-genre! As a child I was also passionate about maps, and used to pore over them, and the two interests are somehow linked in my mind... Maybe because maps identify or "name" things?

I FLAUNT my name books in my book case!

Eo -- I love maps, too! I wonder how many other NEs here are also map-lovers ...

I, too, remember feeling slightly awkward buying name books (almost all targeted to those naming children) when I was in my early 20s. My excuse was naming my cat, but how many people buy name books for that exercise?!? Well, I did, and I'm sure many of you would have, too.

hyz -- As someone who went from a two-syllable FN paired with a two-syllable LN to a one-syllable LN, I have to say I *love* my shorter LN and the way it pairs with my two-syllable FN. I think it's snappy in a sweet way. Perhaps your Ivy will agree, should that be the name you choose for her.

On the note of surnames, even though I love my married LN, it is difficult to combine with many FNs because it is also the name of an object. No color names, no names like Owen that could sound like "own," or anything else that made a weird pseudo-sentence with the LN.

Earlier in the discussion of Hyacinth Soh, someone mentioned the flow not being an issue because how often do you use your FN-LN in combination. I actually find I use mine (and my daughter's) quite a lot so flow is incredibly important to me.

And that brings me back to the subject of phonemes in naming, which I found fascinating. I wondered when my daughter was born if perhaps her name was too alliterative -- short A (as in apple) to start the FN and in the first syllable of the MN; then an A as in car in the LN. But it was that alliterativeness (or something close to alliterativeness) that drew me to the name in part.

Eo, I very much agree that naming is a fun subset of general linguistic (and sociological, and historical) study, which is also something I relish, so I don't see why people should be so narrow-minded about an interest in naming.

Re: maps--I wouldn't exactly say I'm a map lover, but I do find them fun, and I'm quite handy with a map (which is good--it makes up for my abysmal sense of direction!). I wouldn't tend to cite being good with a map as a skill, because it doesn't seem to me like there's any challenge to it, but apparently many quite intelligent people have a hard time reading maps and translating them to the real world around them. So I too wonder if NEs

Amy3--I'm glad to hear you like your short and snappy LN/FN combo! I worry such a short name might lack weight, or something, but really it might work better than a long name as a "brand"--something attractive that will stick with people and come readily to mind.

I think I've always been attuned to phonemes in naming, as well as rhythm (which is maybe odd, because I'm not musical, but rhythm certainly plays a big part in poetry, which I've studied some). My own FN/LN have a rather smushy sound together that I don't care for (close repetition of a strong SH sound in both), and which forces me to carefully enunciate my full name. I'd like to avoid that for our kids, and I think Ivy Soh accomplishes that. Still, I hate to admit, but the more I say Hyacinth Soh out loud, the more it grows on me. I LOVE the rhythm (a drum beat, like RAT a tat TAT), and since I do love that lispy TH at the end, it's like the following S just magnifies it, and makes the whole name even softer and more pleasant. But she'd have a similar forced enunciation problem to mine. She'd be frequently forced to repeat her name and spell it for people, but then again, that's going to happen anyway with an uncommon LN. Hm. There are other names on our list that get that rhythm, but they have issues too (like Sylvia, but then there's the SS consonance issue, or Averil, kind of, but the middle syllable is more squished there, or Eleanor, which DH considers but doesn't [yet] embrace). Oliver is one of my top boy names, and it has that rhythm, but DH doesn't love it (yet). It's funny, but another top boy name we agree on is August, and the enunciation issues there (August Soh) don't bother me near as much, even though I think it's actually harder to say than Hyacinth. Sorry to go on, but I think this proves a point--being an NE is actually making it MUCH, MUCH harder for me to be satisfied with a name. So much for a lifetime of preparation for this event....

Ha ha! I bought my first baby name book long before I bought Michael Jackson's "Thriller" album, which was the first record I purchased with my own money. Which tells you that my own obsession with names began long before the onset of puberty.

I also enjoy maps, and had them plastered all over my walls in college. The town I lived in was next to my bed, the state above it, and so on--the universe was over my head so I could see it when I was lying in bed.

I love the conversations on this blog!

I too was buying name books as a girl, and making lists of names that I liked, that went together in a pleasing sib set, that would be good character names for stories, that would be good names for pets, that were celebrities' kids names ... it freaked my husband out a little bit when we first started dating, because my name obsession actually WAS coupled with a lifelong hope of one day having a big family! (Which everyone who knew me knew about me, so they never thought it was weird that I had name books!)

Re: Betsy, like Katie, I too have a teenage sister named Betsey (spelled that way), nn for Elizabeth. In our case, my dad has a family genealogy book that traces our family back to when they came to America from England in the 1600s, and Elizabeth nn Betsey (spelled that way) was a popular pick in our family for generations, which is why my parents chose it. My sister is also, like Katie's, a "spunky, hip, edgy and cosmopolitan Bets[e]y" ... and I'd add "intense, extremely ambitious, and ultra successful in everything she does" ... which I don't think is the usual personality that comes to mind when one hears the name Bets[e]y! (And actually, I almost always call her only "Bess" ... which on the surface seems even more mismatched with my sister's personality ... but she's just always been Bess to me!)

I too am a stay-at-home mom with a Masters degree and plans to pursue a doctorate someday ...

I was interested by the comments on Gabriel -- positive, negative, associated with an ex-boyfriend ... it's a name I've always loved, and was OVERJOYED when my husband (of the "my favorite name is Bob" variety) agreed to it for our second son ... (though -- as I've mentioned on here before -- I hate that many people that we come in contact with [northeast USA] don't know how to pronounce it, or think it's a girl's name, or try to call my Gabriel "Gabby." And they look at me weird when I try to explain that in the American English I'm familiar with it's mostly pronounced "GAY-bree-uhl" [which is how we pronounce it] and that, though in other countries and among those for whom American English is not their first language the name is usually pronounced "gah-bree-EL," here in America that pronunciation would most likely be the girl's name Gabrielle. Which is NOT what we named our son.)

Re: honorifics, I feel a little stuffy about this, because even though I don't *feel* like a Mrs. So-and-So (I've been married over 5 years, I'm turning 30 this summer, I'm expecting my third child ... but I still feel like a kid!), when kids call me by my first name I feel they haven't been taught correctly (which has been ingrained in me since childhood -- my parents were VERY strict about such things) ... we're doing Aunt/Uncle with our kids when it comes to our close friends, and Mr/Mrs/Ms for everyone else ... but when older people introduce themselves to my kids by their first names, I do allow that -- clearly it's important to such people to be called by their first names.

Kate, for the record, I love the name Gabriel, and I can't fathom that it's so unfamiliar to people in this country. I mean, that's just shocking to me. I guess I'm sheltered....

I love Bets(e)y, too--I can totally see a hip and spunky Betsy. I really wouldn't mind going with a Margaret & Elizabeth type of sib set, but DH isn't supportive.

re Hyacinth: I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet that Jacinta is the Spanish version of Hyacinth. I simply adore Jacinta and think it should be massively more popular than it is.

re Shirley Anne: in my previous company, the poshest, oldest-school Brit went to Tennessee for a business trip to meet some massively senior client, and was charmed to his socks by the senior client's Scarlett-O'Hara-esque PA, who was Shirley Anne. This meant that me and the other American in the company had an instant nickname upon his return. It stuck for over a year, so it was clearly some impression!

re Flora: in the UK, this is a kind of margarine. Girls are named Fleur and Freya much more these days!

I am also delighted to know that I am not the only person who spent my tweenies making lists out of baby name books. In my case, I braved the public library for them...

One last thought re: Hyacinth -- Sarah, you're right, how could I forget Jacinta! It's my confirmation name! I've always loved it ... and often thought that "Jess" would be a sweet nn for it ... though no one I've ever mentioned that to has agreed with me ... it's on *my* girl list, since my husband rejects it every time I bring it up, but I'm not yet willing to let it go. I believe Jacinda is a variation of it, which is more well known, right? Like the beautiful actress Jacinda Barrett? (Who, incidentally, is married to a Gabriel!)

I know about Jacinta/Hyacinth, and I wish I liked it, but I have to say I don't care much for Jacinta. I think I have a bit of a prejudice against J names, esp. multisyllabic ones (can't explain it, except maybe that I feel "J'd out" from all the Jennifers, Jasons, Jessicas, Justins, Jeremys, etc. I grew up with). Also I don't tend to care for very Spanish sounding names--it's just not a culture I feel personally connected to, despite speaking Spanish passably well. Regarding Jess for Jacinta--I assume you're pronouncing it with an English J then, as opposed to the Spanish J? I always assume "ha-CEEN-ta" when I see Jacinta--I guess pronunciation might be an issue there.

ETA: I don't mean to say it's a bad name in general, just not one that strikes my fancy!

Eo and Amy3- Never in my life have I linked my NE with the Map Enthusiasm...but I have ArcGIS on my computer, purely for my own entertainment, and I LOVE poring over old maps, comparing them to the present, finding old place names...and like hyz, I never really thought being handy with a map/having a good sense of direction was an actual skill until recently. Some of the brightest people I know can't get from A to B with a map and bus destination labels stating "A to B". But that, as they say, is another story.

The first baby name book I bought was the BNW- I was 17 years old and bought a "congrats, you're expecting!" card and wrapping paper along with it! Prior to that, I read the given names section of a couple of Scottish Clan books we have lying around, and trawled my favourite books and the various biographical dictionaries we had in the house. The second one I bought was the Oxford dictionary of First Names, which I bought openly at Chapters (though it wasn't the Chapters I usually go to...). When I moved back home a couple of weeks ago, I was "outed" to my mum as a NE- or so I thought- she saw the books and my lists in one of my heaps, and while I thought I might have a bit of a delicate situation on my hands, she just looked at me and informed me that I've been doing it since I was three years old and told her I wanted four children, called Matthew, James, Sarah and Amanda. News to me- I only remember consciously being interesting in names from the age of 11 or so. I'm so impressed by all of you who braved the odd looks of librarians/shopkeepers/parents to borrow or purchase your name books!

hyz- Apart from the pronouciation issues with your surname, Hyacinth is rather floridly floral to me- this could be entirely the doing of that early 90s brit comedy "keeping up appearances," wherein Hyacinth was an older lady with awful floral dresses and painful aristocratic pretensions. Ivy, on the other hand, is neat, tidy, and despite the brevity, is more substantial/has more substantial connotations that the It's also part of the trends (Eve, Ava and the other v names, I-names, ee-ending) without being a super-colossal hit. Hyacinth certainly stands out, but my impression is you're going for the sort of "stands out but fits in" feel that Ivy does perfectly.

Ooops- that was much more wordy than intended!

Blythe, I love your attempts at concealing the naming obsession! I probably would've done the same thing, if I weren't too cheap to spend money on a card I didn't need. lol.

I really like your analysis of Ivy, too--that puts a nice spin on it. But I feel kind of warmly fond of Hyacinth Bucket (she's one of those characters who just can't help herself from being HER, no matter how odd that may be, and has no idea how other people see her--I find it amusing, and endearing, in a way). I get more of a quaint (or perhaps stuffy) feel from Hyacinth than a really ornate flowery one (although of course the flower imagery is instant and inescapable, which I *like*)--but I think the flow of it and the consonant ending make it less frilliana, and more strictly botanical.

I forgot to say earlier that I had a very disturbing dream last night. I was the surrogate mother for twins (NOT gonna happen!) and the mother named them Bessica (?!) and Earlene. Yikes! Somehow the thought of having to go through a twin pregnancy for someone else and then to have her give the children those names was just too much. I woke up in a cold sweat. :),

I love maps too, and always envied my grandparents' generation for having to learn the 'capes and bays' or capitals of the world in school, instead of the boring stuff we studied in Geography about crop rotation and new towns.

I also was a very young NE (five) but never thought twice about having name books, because my favorite was "The Oxford Dictionary of Christian Names"(now understandably renamed) which never mentioned babies. I still think it's strange to talk about 'baby names'- they're just people names! And to second hyz, "I was never obsessed with babies, just names".

I also love words, languages, comparative philology. My DH and I have a lot of fun working out the roots of words, having between us, Spanish, Latin, French, German and Italian. Thank God we found each other, as most of my other friends are not interested.
Incidentally, I have a Masters degree and have taught in academia, although I'm not doing so at present.

Bessica and Earlene- that's hysterical!

hyz- I didn't mean it offensively and I probably should have added that the last time I saw that show I was about ten, so my sensibilities were a little different than they are now!

I saved the card and used it recently ;) I figured at the time that *someone* would have a baby before I lost the card...

Valerie- I love languages, too. My favourite courses towards my English minor are the Old English ones (we translated Bede!), and I took latin and French through high school. My sister's exchange partner bought our family the compact oxford dictionary of etymology as a thank-you gift, since we so regularly debated word origins at the dinner table!

I'm also one who is more obsessed with names than children, though I do plan to have kids in the next decade or so.

Bessica and Earlene, meet Amber and Agatha--the twin daughters I once dreamed about my mother having. Those aren't names she would choose in a million years, and even in the dream it puzzled me--enough that I still remember them!

RATatat TAT names beyond Hyacinth--Millicent, Penelope (hm, that's more uh-RAT-a-tat), Marigold, Harriet.... and Bessica! Hey, now we might be getting somewhere...

Hi, I'm a first-time poster here, and I wanted to see what you all think about the name Tacoa (or Tacoah)? I love it, but I haven't been able to find a reference to it anywhere.

I have always wanted a laundry room "wallpapered" in old atlas pages and random city maps. Who knew?

I made posters for my stuffed animals names I rotated the poster accasionally so that my pesky-slightly, younger, very-skeptical brother would not breach our treaty by calling my little furry friend by the wrong name.

I like Hyacinth Soh. I do not like Jacinta - English or Spanish.

They really dont know how to pronounce Gabriel? That is so odd to me.

I would not think of Ivy as time-stamped by sound.

What does Evander evoke for you?

Oh, and, I am SAHM of one. I have no degree.

Tacoa--reminds me of Tekoa, Washington. Or the Toccoa Falls Power Plant, a historic site in Georgia. Or Alcoa, the aluminum manufacturer. Or tacos. Mmmmm, tacos.

In reference to my long time name obsession... Last week I was talking to my mom and she asked what I was doing, and I said I was filtering the new SSA baby name list for phonetics to see the real popularity of the names of 2007. She just stared at me. "I don't know where this interest came from," she said. It was innate, and inborn. I have very early memories of sneaking other people's baby name books off of their shelves while visiting. Also, I made almost weekly lists of names while I was at church. I went looking through my old scripture case, and I had dated lists from as early as 10 yrs old. Also, my first boyfriend new how much I like names and actually gave me my first name book at 15. This of course made our parents incredibly uncomfortable, but he seemed to understand my interest in names opposed to my interest in having a baby (in the immediacy). I do want children, just not now :D

I wouldn't say that I am a map lover, but I am good at reading maps, and rarely get lost. My DH uses me as his personal GPS, so I feel pretty confident in my navigating.

RE: Tocoah. It sounds like Tacoma Washigton to me. It doesn't sound so much like a name to me. Is it for a girl?

Hmmm, I think I'll pass on Bessica. lol. I know lots of English 3 syl names have the emphasis on the 1st syllable, but unfortunately DH and I can't agree on most of them. Beatrix is another one I could go for, but him? Not so much.

Blythe, I certainly wasn't offended! Hyacinth Bucket is certainly not someone I'd choose as a role model for my child, but I do find her amusing. And I'm glad you got a chance to use that card after all! Pretty funny.

Jessica, I like Evander a lot, except that my mind immediately jumps to Evander Holyfield. But if you can get past that (and I think I probably could), it's a strong, smooth, handsome, and dignified name, I think.

Re: Tocoah--a quick google search indicated it's a town name (or former town?) in TN based on the Cherokee language. Is that where you know it from? What makes you like it? I think it has a fine sound, although maybe a bit more masculine than feminine to my ears (I'm thinking of Noah, here), but I'm not one for picking names based solely on liking the sound of it. I'd have to know a bit more about what it means to you to feel any enthusiasm for it.

Yes, I'm thinking of Tacoa for a girl. There are a few spellings; Tecoa, Tacoah, etc.

The first and only time I heard the name was from a former guest on the Dr. Phil show. It was a set of twins named Sarah and Tecoa (recovering heroin addicts, who were being councelled by Dr. Phil). Not exactly a great reference, but I just thought the name was so different and pretty!

Also, I thought the names were an odd match for a set of twins. One so common and one unheard of.