The Baby Name Wizard

So does this mean I should follow my husband's desire to name our soon-to-be-born son Linus, Abner or Burt?

I think Linus falls into the "urban hipster" category of names. I've met some boys called Linus in my area. It is much nicer than anything rhyming with Aidan.

Abner and Burt? Not so great.

JennyAnna -- I've had a soft spot for Linus for the longest time. I also had a cat named Abner, partly because I thought I'd never have the chance to use it on a boy (and I was right). (Linus made the short list of names for the cat, too.) I think both are great names.

Burt I don't care for because of personal associations with the name.

As for Aidan and the many sound-alikes, I know very few kids IRL with these names. If I were naming a baby now, though, I'd definitely avoid them, even though I think Aidan itself is quite nice.

Of course, the immense popularity of Aiden et al is somewhat hidden by the spelling differences. A parent to be considering Aiden may look at the top 20 popular names and think, "Hey, it isn't even that common." Adding spellings together would paint a different picture, though I understand the reasons why Laura decided not to in the Name Wizard. At the same time I found the list fascinating:

http://www.namenerds.com/uucn/top06xy.html

Kindergarten are about to get drowned in Aidens et al. Little niches of distinctiveness will be "Aiden T." and "Brayden with a Y".

Oh well. All the Jennifers and Lisas born in the 70's survived.

Aside: Whenever I tell someone they almost assuredly don't know someone over 10 named Aiden, about half the time they say "There was that guy on Sex in the City named Aiden." That was TV, not real life!

My playgroup (about 30 kids) has an Aidan, a Hayden, a Caden, and a Brayden.

I like Linus and Burt/Bert, maybe short for Albert?

I wonder how much the "aidan" rhyming names are a white American pheonomenon. Last summer I posted about my daughter's pre-k class. Her male classmates were:

Aidan
Braydon
Evan
Brandon
Julian
Logan
Max

All the boys were white middle class. (My daughter's comment at the time were all boys names sound alike). Now, she is in a racially diverse kindergarten.

The boys names:

Elijah
Joshua
Matthew
Griffin
Humberto
George
Pedro
Donnell
Justin
Aaron

And I love the name Linus -- had a cat named Linus Pauling in the 90's.

Regarding "The Aidans" (once again):

In the discussion following Laura's previous post, Susan wrote that as a substitute teacher, "I'm typically faced with a class of kids named Aiden, Jaden, etc. and I find it very difficult to keep them straight." I can understand how those who have several boys called Aidan, Jaden, Kaden, etc. among their students or their children's friends would begin to see these names as 'all the same'.

Two days ago I posted in regard to all the spellings of Aidan: "I can think of lots more possibilities and combinations: first syllable Ai, Ay, A, Ae, with d_n -- put in any of the 5 vowels or y; plus one could throw in an extra 'd' or 'n', making limitless ways to try to make one's own baby Aidan different from all the rest (or something???)." I thought I had all eventualities covered, but my daughter, mother of grandson Aidan, told me she knows an Aidghan! That appears to be Aidan designed to look like Meghan.

Interesting, when I consulted CE Evans book to find out about the 'h' that sometimes is put in Megan, I learned that "the many respellings of this name [Megan] are American attempts to make the name look Irish, but it is not an Irish name and has almost never been used in Ireland, The idea that it's Irish may have come from confusing it with the Irish surname Meighan, with which it has no connection." Evans says that Megan is the Welsh variation of Margaret.

Laura wrote that "the traditional, classic English boys' names are all plummeting because parents want their kids' names to be "distinctive."

Our family prefers "traditional, classic English boys' names" because they sound distinguished.

It does seem that these names are still doing fine, as at least a third of the boys' names in the SSA top 25 would fit that description.

And of course, the more parents who choose the 'new' names with their own 'created' spellings, the more the traditional names, spelled the standard way, will stand out and seem distinctive.

Right now "unique" names and non-standard spellings are popular among some American parents. But I think the trend eventually will turn away from fad names (with some of these names going away about as fast as they sprung up) to timeless names for boys, like the traditional classic English names.

What I find interesting is that the -ayden still sound very new and unique to a lot of people. My fiance just heard that his cousin had a baby named Cadin and commented on how they picked such a "unique" name. I always follow baby name trends closely so the name did not seem at all unique to me.

I agree, Paz. We know a family who just had a Caden (brother to Connor) and I'm feeling sorry for them already, as they probably think it's really unusual. Ditto for another family who just had a sister for Gabriella whom they've named Isabella!

I think when you hang around this blog long enough you do begin to have more unusual taste. This week Albert is really growing on me!

I expect now someone will come along and tell me that Albert is the next big thing...

Valerie -- I *love* Albert. :-)

There's a little first-grade Albert that goes to my daughter's school.

Wait, I think he's actually an Alfred. Either way, I love it. I'm a fan of the Al- names, though.

Valerie,
I posted on the -bert names back in 2006. Thanks to Laura's new search function, I was able to find the post. Here's what I said:

"As the daughter of a Herbert and the granddaughter of an Albert, I can't believe I didn't think of the "-bert" ending for boys' names before now! Shame on me! A quick search on Voyager revealed the following:

Albert 1880s
Bert 1890s
Egbert 1890s (my personal favorite!)
Gilbert 1930s
Dilbert--only one of these, but I'd say he peaked in the 1990s
Herbert 1920s
Hubert 1920s
Humbert--must have been a Nabokov original!
Robert 1930s
Wilbert 1910s

and Rupert 1900s

Interestingly, the "-berto" names peaked in the 1990s with Alberto, Humberto, and Roberto (an exception is Gilberto, which peaked in 2003). Since the Latino population is rising rapidly, I find this a particularly fascinating trend. That drop to me is more significant than it would seem since the number of Hispanic babies born in the US is increasing so rapidly, I would think that the frequency of all Latino names would be as well."

I left out Engelbert, but despite the popularity (?) of the campy Mr. Humperdinck, the name never caught on in the US, at least not since Social Security records have been kept.

I have to admit, I don't see what the ickiness of Abner is all about. I rather like it! Of course, I like August and Arthur, and Edgar is growing on me, too.

It's such a shame that Aidan is going to become so fad-y because it's a lovely name. I actually know 2 Aidans in their mid 20's - but both are from Ireland (I live in the US). So adult Aidans do exist!

Despite their numbers, all those little boys born these days are lucky not to have a super-trendy, "creatively" spelled variation...

I knew an August...who went by Gus. And I always thought it was a bit of a shame because the full name is so beautiful.

Yes there are many adult Aidans around, immigrant paddies like myself, who are all rather bemused at all the two year olds with their moniker! Patricia's Aidghan is bizarre, perhaps an attempt at the (real) Irish name Aodhan?

I also like Arthur, Edgar, Albert--all the Ed- and Al- names work for me, pretty much. Hey, and Edwin, Calvin, and Kelvin even keep you in the popular "-in" crowd!

(I do know boys named Edward and Albert who are second graders right now.)

I need help from the statisticians in the group! I got curious about Latino naming trends and wanted to see if boys' names ending in "n" had increased or decreased in popularity recently. I first decided to exclude names like Adrián, Martín, and Sebastián, since it is impossible in the SSA stats to distinguish those from Adrian, Martin, and Sebastian. The -n ending is not very popular in traditionally Hispanic names, so I looked at names like Cristián, Efrain, and Fabián (which I kept in because I decided, perhaps wrongly, that Fabian is still too fusty-sounding to be used by the non-Spanish speaking public). I also looked at classic Hispanic names like José, Miguel, Jesús, and Enrique. Surprisingly, almost all of these names have fallen in popularity. Their rankings were almost without exception lower in 2007 than in 2006. And this is where I need help from those trained in interpreting statistical data. Since I assume (again, perhaps wrongly) that the Spanish-speaking population rose from 2006 to 2007, especially among newborns, I take this to mean that Spanish-speakers are more likely now to give their children names outside of the traditional names.

This could mean that the Hispanic population is taking a cue from the rest of the country and giving their children less common names from within their traditional set of names (like Yamilet and Lizet on the girls' side), that Hispanics are assimilating in their naming tastes and calling their children Jayden and Michael, or that non-Hispanics who were using names like Jose have started to abandon them. Or it could mean something totally different.

At any rate, I found it really interesting. I'm going to examine the girls' side now and see if the same trend is occurring.

An aside, the five Hispanic children in my daughter's kindergarten class are named Daniel Brandon (he goes by both names), Tony (I'm not sure if that's short for Antonio or is his given name), Sabrina, Emyly, and Lizbet.

Wow!

Here I am thinking I am unique enough to post as Madeline on here, guess not.
I suppose I should get used to this, I am sure within a few years the wave of Madelines that were born in the 1990's will ojoin the adult world, and I will have to live with sharing the name more often.

To be more on topic, I have a nephew named Caden and his parents thought they made it up, but now he has a name just like everyone else.
It is really unfortunate that a name that has a long history like Aidan has now been lumped in with recent creations.

Oh well

-*Madeline* with stars

I don't think we should be too quick to feel sorry for those who named their children something more common than they thought it was, even if they are claiming to try to be different. I would think (hope) that most parents who are very concerned with a name's popularity (or lack thereof) would check the social security rankings of a name before bestowing it on their child. Otherwise, they probably don't care much about the popularity and just like the name, in which case we shouldn't feel sorry for (or superior to) them. As someone else so eloquently put it, many people with common names (such as the Amys, Jennifers and Kimberlys of the 1980s) turned out just fine.

OK, so I've done a spot check on Hispanic girls' names and found a slightly different picture. As with the boys' side, stalwart favorites like Alejandra, Marisol, and Guadalupe (for those of Mexican descent) have fallen. On the other hand, Sofia, Isabel, Daniela, Juliana, Camila, Esmeralda, and Ximena have all risen. In the case of Sofia, Isabel, Daniela, and Juliana, I suspect that this is a result of parents of other ethnicities using the name, but the data doesn't speak to that.

The names that fell from 2006-2007 (some only by a few positions) are: Maria, Adriana, Valeria, Mariana, Liliana, Ana, Guadalupe, Alejandra, Selena, Cecilia, Estrella, Marisol, Perla, Mercedes, Jimena, and Fernanda.

So, if native Spanish-speakers are abandoning traditionally Hispanic names, what do you all make of that? Is it related to the anti-immigrant sentiment, general naming trends in the American zeitgeist that seem to push parents to choose less common names, or something completely different?

And sorry to keep harping on this subject, but I should qualify my above remarks by saying that of course not all Hispanics are native Spanish speakers. I would love to figure out how to sort out the naming preferences among first, second, and third generation Hispanics, but don't have the stamina to even begin such a search.

Cleveland Kent Evans, do you have any data on this?

I've always loved "Marisol"-- sounds whimsical and ethereal. I think there was a very appealing artist, who may still be creating, who bears that name, and she is one of those "single name" individuals-- I don't think she uses a surname.

One of the "-bert" names I'm surprised hasn't returned yet is "Gilbert". For me, it avoids the "fussiness" of some of the others. Has a strong, retro sound. Good nicknames-- "Gil", "Gib" or "Gibbs". And isn't "Gil" an interesting Israeli name in its own right?

Does anyone have an example of a more traditional name that is plummeting dramatically?

I'm sure it's the circle I run in, but we meet plenty of boys (and girls) with the old-is-new-again flavor of names. I sort of like how you end up with a Ronald and a Mary sitting next to a Caysen and a Mia at toddler storytime.

There are certainly plenty of boys running around with my sons' names (Jack and Henry).

I do think Laura's explanation makes perfect sense, although to back up my own muddlings, I looked up Cade vs. Caden, and Cade did indeed peak first. After 2001 Cade declines fairly dramatically, while the opposite is true of all forms of Caden.
Do you suppose folks think of Caden as the more formal version?

Madeline with Stars, I sympathize. I was originally just plain Amber. Now I must go by Amber the Red. The ignominity of it all!

Back on topic, my sister-in-law asked for help picking out a Celtic name for her child. she said, "I'll probably go with Aidan if it's a boy, but I know Aidan's pretty popular right now." Needless to say, I did all I could to give her as many options as possible. And now that she's having a girl, I hope that she's still not going with Aidan ^_^

Traditional name that's dropped significantly?

Edith dropped 80 slots from 2006 to 2007--no notion why, since it's one of those old-is-new-again names that gets mentioned a lot here, and it doesn't have any obvious pop-culture reasons for plummeting. Ellen dropped 40 spots in one year--and has fallen almost four hundred rungs in 15 years--even while Ellie is such a popular girls' nickname.

Oh, and Timothy's on the bump--#100--it's about to drop out of the top 100, if trends continue, after being solidly in the top 50 through the 1990s. It wasn't a dramatic one-year plummet, but it's one of those biblical boy names that's been drifting firmly downward in popularity (like Peter, which hasn't been in the top 100 for a decade now).

Irrelevant but...any info on the rise of Joan for boys?

And I agree with this post. We want to feel unique, but we're scared of actually being that way, so we go with a million slightly different variations of the same thing and say each of us is unique. It's in our baby names, it's in our clothing, it's in the way we speak, it's everywhere.

J&H's mom- Frances dropped 57 places, and Anne fell 60 places, falling out of the top 500 for the first time.

On the other hand, Jane jumped up 50 places, after a decade of gradual falling.

I think it's possible that more Hispanic families are choosing English-language names. In my Kindergarten through third-grade classes this year, there were Hispanic children named Parker, Mason, Evan, Diana, Lily, Katie, Michelle, Caitlyn and Emely.

Sorry, I meant to include the boys in that- Karl dropped nearly 100 places this year, Bernard's dropped 500 places in 15 years, Francis 60 places this year, and poor Gordon's dropped 250 places in four years, while it and Hugh are almost out of the top 1000, despite the fact that they've been there since 1880!

Does the Name Voyager have a wildcard that will allow me to search on name endings? Does anyone know?

Thanks.

P.S. I've met babies named Adin, Ayden, Aiden and Aidan. I always wonder whether Adin, Ayden and Aiden's parents simply don't know how to spell, or whether they think their Aidan will be unique because his name is spelled incorrectly.

It's not just an American trend - Jayden, Aiden and Hayden are all in the England and Wales top 100. Although far more popular here is the -ie or -ey ending

jt posted: "I would think (hope) that most parents who are very concerned with a name's popularity (or lack thereof) would check the social security rankings of a name before bestowing it on their child. Otherwise, they probably don't care much about the popularity and just like the name, in which case we shouldn't feel sorry for (or superior to) them."

I'm guessing that a lot of expectant parents (perhaps the majority) have never *heard* of the SSA rankings and website. That's been the case with all of my family and extended family when they were looking for the best name for their baby -- until I 'clued' them in about SSA baby name data.

I think many people don't think that much about baby names until they're pregnant, and even then they may have few clues about how to gather name information and/or the inclination to make an extensive search of name popularity, etymology, associations, etc. I suspect that many expectant parents get a name book or two, often randomly (from a friend, pick one up at a bookstore, whatever their local library has, etc.), and go with that plus their own perceptions of which names they've been hearing lately and which are unknown to them.

And there are so many really bad name books out there: books with incorrect meanings, books that imply that all spellings of a name are equal. I purchased one of the more widely sold books, only because Half Price Books had it on sale for $2 and I wanted to take a closer look at it. (It must have been a overstock, as the book continues to be available at major booksellers.) Looking at that "very best name book," if I were a parent interested in the name Aidan, I would find that Aidan can be spelled Adan, Aden, Aydan, Ayden, Aydin, Aiden, Aidon, Aidyn or even Aydean, as if all spellings are equal. Pick one!

In an 'ideal world,' every expecting parent would be provided a copy of The Baby Name Wizard and the URL for SSA name rankings! (Laura, I hope you'll include the latter in your revised Wizard.)

Valerie, I'm wondering if the family you know who just had a sister for Gabriella whom they've named Isabella cared that much about name popularity. Not everyone does. Perhaps their main criteria was to find a name that they think goes well with their older daughter's name -- and in that, they succeeded.

Too, with name popularity, one can 'never tell'. It seems that one of the things many parents want to avoid is having their child be in a class with another child with the same name and end up being called, as my grandson is, Aidan K. As my daughter wrote in an email recently, "who knew that the name Aidan would become SO popular? Not us!"

Having your child differentiated by the the first initial of his/her last name can happen with names far less popular. My twin grandsons' names (traditional, classic English boys names) were ranked 5 and 18 for the year they were born. Yet in their preschool class, no other boy has either of their names, while #68 Adrian has two representatives -- Adrian C and Adrian R.

To piggyback off Patricia,

Some of us do know the popularity of a name and use it anyway. I knew full well that Jacob was the top boy name and *gasp* used it for our son. The fact we both liked it, it has strong history, and family significance outweighs the top ranking. And then we dove right back into top names with our newest naming her Elizabeth.
Ironically, not only is he the only Jacob in his class, he's the only Jacob in the entire elementary school.

Personally, I find it a shame that people won't use a name they love because of a perceived popularity.

to J&H mom:

LOUIS/LEWIS - a handsome name that keeps falling in popularity (a big plus in my book!)

Seconding the "popularity/obscurity is relative" comments: My DD is Mamie, a name not in the top 1000. About 9 months after she was born, I learned that a guy I went to high school with named his new daughter Mamie. He hadn't heard about MY Mamie; I believe theirs is named after the wife's grandmother.

Incidentally, I belive the BNW lists Dixie as a sibling name to Mamie -- now that Dixie has jumped onto the list, will Mamie be next?

And I am also loving Gilbert! Isn't he Anne of Green Gables' husband?

The -ayden names for boys sound oddly feminine to me, maybe because I went to high school in the late 80s with a girl named Kayden. I thought that was a cool name at the time.

Re: giving a child a name that you know is currently highly popular is much harder for me to understand when it's a faddish name, but for classic and/or time-tested names like Jacob or Elizabeth, it's not really the same thing in my mind.

I used to babysit an Aidan--he'd be about sixteen now and sometimes I think of him and feel sad that what was such a unique and beautiful name when he was little has become so common. He and my sister are the same age and my sister's name is Lily, which was also not a top-100 name the year she was born.

In fact, Lily was ranked #504 the year she was born and has risen rapidly and steadily every year. In 2007, it was #27.

Aidan, and only that spelling of it, was #796 that year and is now #54. Crazy!

It makes me nervous--you might think you're picking out a lovely and relatively unpopular name but in fifteen years time, it could be the most common name.

And I love Gilbert, too, for the Anne of Green Gables reference. I don't think I could do Linus but Abner sounds distinguished to me.

Jiggs, do you really think 16-year-old Aidan cares a bit that his name has become the #1 boys' names when Aidan and all its non-standard spellings are counted together -- or is even aware of that? No need to feel sad about his name becoming so popular. As for Lily, does she like having a name that was fairly unique when she's little but now is very popular?

My oldest daughter named her third daughter Emma (151 in 1989) and her fourth/last daughter Sophia (168 in 1995). Both names were seen as rather old fashioned (and questionable) by some in our extended family. In 2007 Emma was number 3 and Sophie, 6. Does either girl feel sad about this? Quite the contrary: they're proud their names are so popular. And they've had the best of both experiences -- never another Sophia or Emma in their class (or often in their entire school), yet eventually their names became very fashionable. Their mother congratulates herself on knowing all along that these names were 'winners'.

That should have been Sophia that ranked 6 in 2007.

I hate the creative spelling of names, especially when it is no longer pronounced at you wold think from reading it. Like Zoie etc.

When I was young my name was unique, I could never buy anything with my name on it. But suddenly it became popular and I'm not happy about it.

I'm not happy that my unusual name has become so popular for baby girls. My brother, Micah, who just turned thirty, hates hearing about how trendy his name has become. When you have an unusual first name plus a long and difficult to pronounce surname, you're usually just called by your first name. Now that our first names are so popular, we have to deal with listening to everyone trip over our awful surname.

Thanks for doing all that digging for me, everyone!

On popularity...I'm convinced that a fair amount of the search for originality is driven by moms who grew up with names they perceived as overly popular! Every Jennifer I know still talks about how much she hated being one of half a dozen.

My husband informs me that no man (or boy) gives two cents about the popularity of his name. I'm sure there are exceptions to this sweeping gender stereotype, but it does seem to have some truth to it.

I'd say most regulars to this site are more concerned about a name that will become popular and date-stamped, than they are about sheer numbers. I was thinking today that no matter how many times I hear the name Claire, I just love it. Happily, I feel the same about my own boys' names, even though both are more popular than I'd expected. I Am glad that I don't have to say something like, "Well, we made it up, and it turns out a bunch of other people made up the same thing!"

Louis is what I will name my next child if he's a boy. I don't know why it's so unpopular. It's short, recognizable, not made up, and it's not consonant heavy. I guess people just want stuff that's different.

Laura is right about traditional names falling. I named my son Charles nn Charlie and just knew that it was going to be a big riser this year. WRONG! It dropped two places and Charlie lost ground too.

I just like knowing that my child's name is going to stand the test of time. Popularity isn't as much of an issue for me as a date stamp is.

Elizabeth T. - A lot of later-generation Hispanics are going for inter-racial marriages (my own husband included) and of course the other spouse brings a whole new element to deciding what names fit for the new family. It's a totally different dynamic, deciding between John or Juan, Miriam or Marisol (translation is ""Saint Mary of the Sun," by the way), when you have such very different naming backgrounds to meld. And then you have people like my husband who don't identify very closely with their "ethnic background" just because it's too far removed. When the survey people call he has a hard time convincing them he's Tejano (native Hispanic Texan) or just plain American, and NOT Mexican-American. His family has lived in this country at least as long as mine (150+ years) and has likewise shed most of the original culture.

jt, Patricia, et al. - popularity is hard to rate, too. My son's name Joseph is popular, but not top 10. We're expecting in September and thinking of Sophia as a name, and even with the two spellings combined to make it the #1 name, it still has the same name density as Joseph. And it has half the density of the big names (Jennifer, Jessica, Ashley) from when we were born. Popular does not mean pervasive.

Patricia- you may be right and the parents of Isabella may not mind at all if her name is popular. Maybe I was imposing my own fear of that on to them. My mother was pretty upset when she discovered that naming my sister Sarah in 1970 made her one of many in her age group.

I remember Leslie Dunkling saying that a lot of people feel it's an advantage to be ahead of the curve. For example, your granddaughters Emma and Sophia will be in that position now for the rest of their lives. I think it was because people will think they are younger than they are... although now I'm questioning the whole basis of that statement! That just totally buys into the "younger is better' mentality that afflicts our culture....

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes, that would put me at a disadvantage, as I'm a Valerie born in 1962 which was at the tail end of the name's popularity. I probably have experienced people assuming I'm older because of that- before they meet me- but it hasn't been a big deal. And anyway, it's coming back now, apparently!

I know that my sister gets frustrated when she lived for most of her life without knowing anyone her name and now she is constantly hearing her name called out in grocery stores, etc.

My husband, Dylan, also is frustrated by the recent surge of little Dylans everywhere. I suppose my point was not so much that there is something wrong with having a common name, if that's what the parents want as much as it is difficult to predict which names are going to become popular. I think Lily, Aidan, and Dylan are all lovely names--even if they are too popular for me to want to use.

And when you are used to having a "unique" name and it does become suddenly quite popular, I think that for some people that does feel awkward.

JRE--
I totally agree. A while back I posted asking opinions re: Natalie and Madeline and most of the responses had to do with popularity. DH and I have discussed names over and over and finally concluded that picking our FAVOURITE name is probably a better option than picking a runner-up simply because it isn't as "popular." (Within reason, of course!)
I found it interesting, too, because according to NameVoyager Madeline is actually LESS common (ranked in 50s-60s?) than Natalie (ranked in teens), but the majority who commented mentioned preferring Natalie because Madeline is too common. I think maybe that's where J&H's mom's comment is right on--trendiness/being date-stamped is more of a concern than actual numbers/popularity, and something that may sound suddenly trendy may seem more popular than it actually is.

Oh, and p.s. I think we might bypass Natalie and Madeline altogether and go with Anna. I know it's popular but it's "classic" enough not to be too dated, right? We are thinking Anna Claire.

I think I am unique among hard-core NEs in that I cared not a whit about popularity when I named my daughter Sarah. Its popularity, in fact, was part of the appeal. My husband and I figured that our kids would be somewhat eccentric and wanted to give them names that didn't peg them as that. Somehow naming a child who is likely to be nerdy an uber-nerd name seemed a little cruel to us.

Hank.

One of my friends has Hank as one of their choices for their soon to be born son and it is not popular AT ALL. Easily spelled, pronounced and recognized, I think Hank is a winner.

Sorry, previous post was re: knowing any boy's names that are common but unpopular.

kate b., I think Anna Claire is a lovely name. If you're looking for a classic name, I think Anna meets that requirement ahead of either Natalie or Madeline. Wizard categorizes Anna as timeless, Natalie as a new classic, and Madeline as a name with antique charm (but also says, "Madeline is a classic..."). Of the three names you're considering, I personally prefer Anna, but I like Natalie a lot too (although I don't consider it a traditional classic name). They're all fine names. I agree that picking your favorite name is more important than compromising with a less popular name.

just-another-Amy, Hank? As the given name? I wonder about that. When I visited a British friend Henry some years ago, he mentioned that Americans shorten his name to Hank and was very dismissive about the nickname. I also have a cousin named Harold whose parents called him "Hankie"; of course, he eventually became "Hank". I think Hank would be OK as a nickname for Henry or Harold, but I wouldn't advise naming a child Hank.

Well, Madeline is far more popular than it might appear for exactly the reasons mentioned in this blog entry: variations. Madelynn, Madelyn, Madalyn, Maddalyn, Madeline, Madeleine, Maddilyn, etc. are all over baby name lists. Natalie is generally relegated to that spelling or sometimes Nathalie.

Sushila, it's interesting that "Timothy" and "Edith" are falling out of favor. Could it be the "th" sound? Although that hasn't hurt "Matthew" at all. Personally, I like "th" very much, especially in Biblical and in lispy Welsh names, "Delyth" etc.

I do think the names you mentioned, Timothy, Edith, Ellen and Peter, would be an adorable quartet of present-day children!

I would guess that in former British colonies, the beautiful and historical "Peter" still has strong adherents. Catherine Herridge, a Canadian reporter for Fox News, named her baby Peter, and among my Canadian acquaintances it crops up more. But that is strictly anecdotal, it's probably way down below the "Kyle"'s and such on the actual Canadian list...

ElizabethT -
LOL at "naming a child who is likely to be nerdy an uber-nerd name seemed a little cruel to us"

Considering our children have a very high probability of being in the nerdy category given their gene pool, I can totoally relate to your statement. (And Sarah was a name we strongly considered for both our girls. :-) )

I must say that I too see classic names that top the charts as different from "new" names that top the charts. In my mind, there's a huge difference in the names Michael and Jayden. The thing is, the wording used in the posts here don't differentiate that and blanketly use the word "popular". Perhaps if you find the name trendy or part of a fad or a potentially date-stamped name or rising fast, then that's the wording that should be used. To me, that is much more informative.

Okay, here I break the stereotype of a NE again. First I go into the names Jacob and Elizabeth knowing their popularity --- and my name is Jennifer. I never cared a bit about other people sharing my name. I was thankfully my parents gave me a name they liked and that was easily recognizable.

It's what you DO that makes you distinctive, not what you're named.

"It's what you DO that makes you distinctive, not what you're named."

Jennifer, I agree, but think it may be more of an uphill battle for kids named Zaiden and Brandi than for those named Jacob and Elizabeth.

Patricia-
"agree, but think it may be more of an uphill battle for kids named Zaiden and Brandi than for those named Jacob and Elizabeth."

Oh, believe me, I agree! But, if you were to ask little Zaiden and Brandi's parents about their names, I'm willing to say they feel they've given their child the gift of being distinctive.

The same could be say about some NE who think they're bestowing a unique name to their child. Standing out from the crowd ultimately will be about what you accomplish rather than the moniker that's more reflective of your parents than you. JMHO.

You're thinking of Anna Claire?

That's funny, I'm almost always thinking of an eclair. Mmmmmm, pastry.

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

On the TH in Timothy and Edith---I'd *think* it was a factor, but then as you say, Eo, there's no hesitation about Matthew... or Elizabeth, or Meredith or Seth or Ethan or Nathan... such a parade of popular "TH" names seems to throw that theory out.

Timothy's coming off a big hump of mid-20c. popularity, so I guess "Tim" sounds like someone's dad instead of a baby (and the dreaded "Timmy" isn't what today's parents want in a nickname--with the add problem of the main character on Fairly Odd Parents being Timmy Turner). And as I said, it's part of the New Testament name dump--folks just aren't using Timothy, Peter, Paul, Mark, etc., like before. (Although John seems immune to trends, and Luke got the Star Wars/Dukes of Hazzard/Gilmore Girls bump.)

Edith --still don't know why that dropped so hard in the past year. It's not a sudden reappearance of Edith Bunker in the minds of 20-somethings, at least not that I've heard about.

I was reading BNW last night and Laura writes for Michael that one of its attractions is that its not a white name or a trendy name or an African-American name, etc. Everyone uses it so its a blank slate for a child to grow into--and a beautiful blank slate at that.

If I hadn't almost married a Michael I'd use it.

There are two comments I loved which have been posted since last night, first the suggestion that most of us here are interested in a name that isn't time-dated and I think that is true. I noticed last night when reading sibling lists (BNW again) how time-dated they are. Even the modern-yet-old-lady name lists--if the list says Lily, Sadie, Emma, Olivia (just to take from preschoolers I know)--those are all old names but the list is distinctively Now. We might not be able to escape it.

Second--I love Elizabeth T's idea of giving the nerdy kid a straight name! I wonder if that is why my extremely far out there hippy father named me Amy? and for that matter, my sister is Sarah. On the other hand, I wanted a classic name that was somewhat quirky for my DD, thus she is an Iris (and a family name at that). Apparently I've never gotten over my disappointment at not being named Butterfly...

Eo said: "I do think the names you mentioned, Timothy, Edith, Ellen and Peter, would be an adorable quartet of present-day children!"

This is so funny to me b/c my brother and sister are Timothy and Ellen, and had I been a boy I would have been Peter. (Our birth dates from 1965 to 1970 argue in favor of Timothy being seen as the name of a parent rather than a child today.)

I completely agree with all of you who have said that who you are and what you do with your life is vastly more important than your name. I was one of a zillion Amys, and I turned out fine. Sometimes it was annoying, but mostly I didn't think about it. It was just the way it was.

I also agree that many NEs seek a name that doesn't seem date-stamped versus one that is popular, and that distinction is important.

Not on-topic, but I wanted to add that I overheard someone recently talking about Patience. I know we've had on-and-off discussions of virtue names, but I think is the first I've heard of IRL other than the more common ones (Grace, Hope, Faith).

I *love* the name Timothy. My first association with it is Timothy grass, which is grown in lush fields to make sweet green hay that horses and rabbits adore. Timothy hay smells lovely and clean and fresh, and reminds me of my childhood hours spent in the sun with my good pony (Joe). So, Biblical origin aside, Timothy is a classic, nostalgic name to me, and I love the lispy "th" and melodic 3 syllables, as well. Unfortunately, DH thinks it sounds "wimpy". :p

i knew a guy named Caiden in college and we all thought it was the weirdest name... i bet neither he nor his parents ever expected it to become so popular 25-30 years later!

And regarding "normal" names for potentially geeky or otherwise unusual kids--I get this, but I don't think one has to go too far with it. For instance, I happened to know two rather socially uncomfortable girls in high school, Sarah (extremely common in my school) and Amelia (the only one in the school, SSA rank around 300 when she was born). Neither one of them was picked on for their name, and I really don't believe either name helped or hurt their popularity. I do have the pleasure of knowing Amelia as an adult, now, though, and she has blossomed into a much more confident and engaging person--and now her name seems lovely on her. I don't think she would've been better served by her parents giving her a more common name.

On the other hand, I think she might've been negatively affected by being called Gertrude, Bertha, or Moon Unit--names that are so loaded that (I think) you have to be especially confident to "pull-off". If I think my kid might be geeky (and that's certainly a possibility), I'd avoid overly strong names (like Hank for boys), possibly geeky names, no matter their current hipness (like Olive, Abner, Linus, Maude), and notably odd names (like Blue, Wolf, Apple, Zelda, etc.). Otherwise, I'd consider the field pretty wide open.

Valerie, I agree with you that being 'ahead of the curve' may have some advantage. Perhaps, as you say, because people perceive you as younger? Perhaps because people believe you come from a family of clever trendsetters;)? Or maybe it just creates some cognitive dissonance and makes people remember you and your name? I know a Ryan who was born in the late 1950's -- even when I was 15, I remember noting that it was an unusual name for a man that age.

Re: Natalie and Madeline, when I combined all spellings, Natalie/Natalee/Nathalie/etc. came in at #17, and Madeline et al was #20.

NEs? IRL? Can someone fill me in on what these stand for? Thanks!

NE = name enthusiasts

IRL = in real life

OK, folks, I'm going to be one to go off-topic and ask for advice!

We're having a boy, and he's our fifth child. Names that dh and I both like are Benjamin, Joshua, Edward, Clive, Charles, Arthur, Samuel, Griffin, and Lewis. I may be missing one... The problem is that his top choices of these (Benjamin and Joshua) do not match my top choices (Edward and Arthur). What do YOU experts think? :)

Annemarie - do you mind sharing your other children's names? That would give us a good idea of your naming style and help with the advice. With nothing else to go on, though, I like the idea of a combination of one of your top choices with his. Benjamin Arthur is an adorable combination of new classic with old.

Re: Aidans - I know a 22 year old Aidan whose siblings have names like Callum and Alistair (there are 5 other siblings, I think, whose names I am forgetting). The parents are from Scotland, the kids grew up in Canada and France. Interestingly, Aidan, the oldest, is the only one whose name has broken into the mainstream in the US. I wonder if as his siblings grow up, their names will get more and more popular as well? I can see Callum being a massive hit.

annemarie, It seems to me that all four top choices are good ones, but each of you is leaning towards a different group of names. While all four could be called traditional, your husband's preferences are biblical, while yours are what I would call English royal and non-biblical. Do you have other sons? If more than one, did you match their names as to 'category'? Or if you have only one other son, which name goes best with his name? (I prefer sibling names that match in style, although some parents don't care about that or even want to avoid it.)

annemarie: I vote for Edward or Lewis (although I personally prefer the Louis spelling)

annemarie -- I'd also love to know your other kids' names before I weigh in.

That reminds me - Edward Lewis is the name of Richard Gere's character in "Pretty Woman."

Hannah1981's post and awful surnames. We encountered having to name a boy and girl with a very long and hyphenated last name. My husband went through life with an uncommon foreign name and was able to go by his first name only. When naming our daughter we gave her a name that we loved, but we are constantly waiting for it to gain in popularity. I am not sure how I will feel about this happening (I am not so worried about her). With our son we ended up giving him a foreign name that is not heard of very often in the US. I really don't expect his name to grow in popularity. But it was very difficult selecting a name that is different, but not too out there.

Annemarie, I'd also like to know the other names before rendering a "formal" opinion, but just to be contrarian I'll say that my favorite choice from your list is Charles. :) As for between the top 4 you mentioned, I'd say your husband's choices are a bit more usual, while yours sound very familiar but a bit more anachronistic for today. I think Benjamin is my favorite of the group, with Edward close behind, Joshua third, and Arthur fourth (Arthur definitely still has a bit of a geeky and/or frumpy image for me).

Annemarie, I agree with Katie that maybe a combination name might be a gr8 choice. I like most of the names you listed. Clive, Charles, Lewis and Arthur aren't my style. Griffin seems a little on the popular or on-the-rise category. I'm sure in the long run you'll do fine. I do agree with some other comments made here that success (or lack thereof) does not inherently come from one's name.

In response to the original post, I do not care for any of the -bert names. Linus or Abner are nms either. Among my choices in 2000 were Zachary, Conner, Jeffrey, Brian, Eric, Joshua, Matthew, Alexander, and some others with the same feel. I like the Aiden sounding names however I do think they have become widely overused. The names above would still be in the running if I were to have another boy (not at all planned) even if they became popular-just because I like them.

Will all the "unique" male Jadens and Kadens find themselves using boyish nicknames (Denny, perhaps) to distinguish them from their female classmates, who are also named Jayden and Kayden? Or will the girls take to nicknames instead, going by Jade or Kay or Kady to make the name their own?

Actually, variations on Natalie are still slightly more popular than variations on Madeline. Natalie is #16, (Nataly, Nathalie, Natalee, Nathaly, plus a couple hundred with varitions on Natalia). Madeline is #18 (Madelyn, Madeleine, Madalyn, Madilyn, Madelynn, Madalynn, Madilynn). I think the "trendiness" of Madeline seems higher because of it's similarity to Madison, with the "Mad/Maddy" nickname.

I like Anna very much - timeless, simple, classic, easy to spell, and easy to go by "Ann" if she so chose to.

Without knowing the siblings' names, I like Edward and Benjamin best of the favorites. I also like Louis (I also prefer that spelling to Lewis) and Charles.

I think that what makes Madeline seem more popular than Natalie is the Maddie nickname that is shared with Madison. And I sort of think people see Madeline as a "classic, updated" alternative to Madison. To borrow from the earlier thread, Natalie's orbit group is much smaller.

When I was about 5, my older cousin and I received matching boy Cabbage Patch Kids from Santa. We were both hell-bent on naming them Timmy (though I think my reason for this was that she was doing it), and we both did (but I think I called mine Tommy when we played together). That's my personal association with Timothy, but think it is a lovely, if parental (rather than child's), name.

I agree with all posters with regards to time-stamped v. popular. I think that's also why you'll see more support for high-ranking boys names around here than high-ranking girls' names; there's always support for the classic, but not as much for the trendy.

To the poster considering the name, I think Anna Claire is lovely.

Ash commented: "I also like Louis (I also prefer that spelling to Lewis)..."

To me as a Brit, that's an interesting comment. In England Louis would be pronounced LOU-ee and Lewis would be LOU-iss and they would not be considered the same name (although they are related etymologically I think). Are they pronounced the same in the US generally?

I love the name Louis, but pronounced LOU-ee like the French kings. My rather regal cat bears the name.

Annemarie-

I really like your name list (my one and a half year old son is a Benjamin Charles!) but I was wondering about the older siblings. The BNW book's sibling names would be a good thing to consult. Arthur for example, would sound good with a brother George or Edward (think English royalty). Benjamin or Joshua would sound good with Nathan, Noah, or Samuel (biblical and pretty mainstream these days). Whichever flavor of names matches the other siblings would be the best- all of your names are very nice!

Funny thing about Madeline and Natalie, I liked both when expecting my second daughter (named Natalie) but I also thought Madeline and its many spelling variations was much more trendy. I didn't know any little Natalies, and that was in 1999. I am surprised of how popular it is now, because of its meaning of Christmas birthday, also why I chose it for her.

Hrrrm. Interesting to see that Natalie + combined spellings still outranks Madeline + combined spellings. I wonder whether Madeline has more variations, not yet SSA ranked, that would add up to more?

Although the Madison "Maddie" connection is most probably the date-stamp.

Valerie, I would say the general assumption here in the US is that Louis is pronounced exactly the same as Lewis. If I knew Louis were French or something, that would probably change my assumptions. Given that, I'm with Ash in preferring the Louis spelling.

Oh, and I'm very sorry to say that "an eclair" would put me off of Anna Claire, as lovely as each of those names are. In theory I could get past it, because they do flow nicely, but I've let smaller things than that knock beloved names off my list, so if it were my kid, I wouldn't be able to do Anna Claire.

I am really interested to hear Madeline and Madison compared.... really? Are you serious? Madison is a last name come first name of recent popularity and Madeline is a long standing name with Hebrew and French connections that has been used in the states for a century or more.

Can we really link these names because they can be whittled to the same nick name?

Please don't tell me my name has a date stamp!

But maybe the upside is, as another poster mentioned, people will assume I am younger than I am. :) I'll take it.

My grandfather's name was Louis, pronounced 'the American way' as LOU-is. The name Louis went way back in his family of French Canadian heritage, but of course, the early Louis name bearers were called Lou-EE. My grandmother called him "Lou" which would not fair well as a boy's name these days.

Amy3 - Re: the name Patience:
I met twin baby girls named Patience and Lilah a few months ago. Kind of a strange match, in my opinion. I envision Lilah growing up to be a wild and vivacious beauty while Patience sits home in prairie skirts reading her Bible and knitting.

I know an Anna Claire who just graduated from college. As far as I know, she went by the full name her whole life, and it fit her well. It's a beautiful name.

Mari- Re: Lilah and Patience- LOL! My image too...

But Patience will probably be the wild one and Lilah the bookish one. That's how it usually works.

Gilbert has returned - for us anyhow! My 6 yr. old is Gilbert and I love it. I have no regrets. My son suits it so well too - he is a very cute nerd! I love saying it and telling people his name even to this day. It is strong, masculine and has great short versions. He often get Gilbo.

Valerie - FYI, the city of Louisville, Kentucky is named after King Louis XVI, so it retains the French pronunciation (sort of), although it's more like LOU-uh-vull.

Annemarie: Here I go again-- I always feel a duty to warn parents about the downside, as well as the upside of "Benjamin"! The rest of you, bored out of your skulls, may talk amongst yourselves...

Are you prepared to have one and all arbitrarily shorten it to "Ben", even if you use the full name, or if you have an alternate nickname? We discovered to our surprise eight years ago that many people are determined to go to the default nickname Ben, which to our mind has become sort of colorless through over-use.

A lot of callow actors are called Ben, and have you noticed that screenwriters often give their male characters that name? Annoying!

There are THREE Benjamin's in our B.'s second grade class, two of whom go by "Ben" almost all of the time...

If you use Benjamin as the second name, however, you'll avoid the shortening issue altogether...

Here's the upside:

The meaning, "son of the right hand", has come to mean "favored" or "beloved" son, which is lovely. Also, because of Biblical circumstances, Benjamin became, over time, a name that "older" parents would give a much-wanted child. I love that aspect too since hubby and I waited a long time for our Benjamin!

Many GREAT figures in history bore the name. We've gotten our B. quite interested in Benjamin Franklin...

You CAN come up with your own distinctive nickname, and if you do it early enough, make it stick-- our B. loves his nickname "Banks".

Frivolously, a child bearing ANY of the names in the Beatrix Potter tales "Peter" (Rabbit) "Benjamin" (Bunny) "Jemima" (Puddleduck) "Jeremy" (Fisher) etc., has an automatic theme for decoration of his or her room, with beautiful prints of the various animal characters (with their names on the print) available...

O.K., so very possibly none of this matters to you, but there it is!

Thanks for the info on Louis, guys. As I already used it on my cat, I probably wouldn't have considered it for a child, but it's good to know. Louis still resides in the UK with my parents. He prefers the French pronunciation!

Thoughts regarding popularity. I regret that we named our DD Adelaine as appaprently it isn't a name. It never comes up in any book and I don't like it that people think I made it up - although I guess I did?? I am far too traditional for that! Wish I'd done my research. I am really hoping Adelaine arrives on the charts and am glad that Adelaide and Adeline are rising so our dd doesn't a have such a "no-name" BUT because I am so not wanting her to be too unusual with no one knowing how to say or spell her name, she gets called Patti (long story but it's better than the all too popular Addie nn and Laine just never "took" which is what I thought might happen) I thought it was so great we had a flexible name! It's not cause eventually she has to be called one thing. Be careful about being too original. You may have regrets as we did. Timeless and classic may be safe but I doubt you ever regret it.

A PS to my previous post and a mother's plea. My quest is to get Adelaine into the top 1000 in the next few years. If you like the name well enough join me in the challenge and suggest "Adelaine" to anyone looking for name suggestions or use it yourself! Can we influence naming in North America? Let's try and find out if Adelaine gets into the charts. By the way I live in Canada so I'll be trying up here.

Not to be a wet towel, but when I see people who were named at the beginning of a popularity curve, I think, "Boy, she sure looks old for a Heather." Sorry!!

"Irrelevant but...any info on the rise of Joan for boys?"

I really, really wish I knew what is going on there, Harriet. At first I thought it was part of some reverse gender equality movement. Then I thought it's some non-anglo-saxon cultural happenstance. And now I'm wondering if those are SSA mistakes, like checking "boy" when the baby was a girl.

I want to meet one of these little boy Joans. Then I might have an answer for you.

Andrea, Adelaine may not be in the top 1000, but it *is* a name according to this baby name website - http://www.babynamesworld.com/meaning_of_Adelaine.html

Name: Adelaine
Origin and Meaning of the Name Adelaine
Gender: Girl
Origin: German
Meaning: Noble one
Origin: Hebrew
Meaning: Yahweh is just
Pronunciation:
(A dah layn); (A dah LAYN eh)
Form of: Adalene
Categories: African American, American, English
Used in: English speaking countries

I also found Adelaine listed under Adeline in one of my baby name books (a book with little more than lists of names -- 50,000+ of them).

I'm wondering what you planned to call her when you gave her that name. It's a pretty name, and I think Addie is cute -- and more current than Patti.

Andrea,

I googled Adelaine and lots of people with that name turned up. It's also listed at the Baby Names World web site. In fact, 3 people filled out the survey on that site regarding how they like their name.

http://www.babynamesworld.com/meaning_of_Adelaine.html

Also try searching for Adelaine in Wikipedia. Apparently, Henry James published a short story in 1894 with a character named Adelaine Mullville. There is also a mention of a Canadian woman with that name born in the 1800's. Also, Miss Malaysia 2007 is named Adelaine.

So don't beat yourself up. The name appears to have been used historically and is being used today.

Feel any better?

It occurred to me that boys named Joan are not being given a usually female name but a non-English language version of John. Looking into that, I found this:

JOAN (2)

Gender: Masculine

Usage: Catalan
Catalan form of JOHN

Catalan - the Romance language of Catalonia, closely akin to Provencal: it is spoken also in SW France, Valencia, western Sardinia, and the Balearic Islands.

Pronounced "zhoo-AHN" or "jaw-AHN".

A famous bearer is Joan Miró, a Spanish painter.

A famous bearer is Mexican singer-songwriter Joan Sebastian.

I know an elderly Dutch man named Joan. He is old enough to have been impressed as a slave laborer by the Nazis. He escaped during the last days of the war and rode into Amsterdam with the first wave of liberators. When he came to the US after the war, he changed his name to John.

The rise in the Hispanic population probably is the reason for the male Joans, but I still don't have a clue about the little boy Yaels.

I do find the rise of Joan (for boys) to be peculiar, since most Hispanics in the US aren't Spaniards and don't know anything about Catalán. Patricia, I suspect your reference to Joan Sebastian must be what's driving it.

Well, I guess I better give more information! :) My other kids do not have a matching style of names. My first is Thomas. My second son has my maiden name as his first name, and it's a very unusual, German surname, although I got it via my Danish ancestors (googling my entire maiden name gets hits mostly in German). It's entirely possible that people think I made up ds #2's name, upon hearing it for the first time and not knowing anything about my family. Oh well. My daughter is Lily. We had our reasons and we love the name! :) (And no, I don't say that I had no idea it was so popular: I knew full well.) My youngest is Nathaniel.

Nathaniel is not as well known as a Bible name, but does appear in the Bible spelled slightly differently. So I have a reluctance to use any more Bible names, since then we'd have three out of four boys with Bible names and ds #2 as the odd one out. Dh thinks that this is over-thinking things.

At first, Clive was far and away my favorite but I'm getting cold feet with thinking that many people may just hate it. Hence Edward and Arthur have edged up on my list. But we've never had such difficulty choosing a name before! I'm due in two weeks, and we have a bunch of names that we both like fine but no favorites to agree on.

Eo, I love your thoughts on Benjamin-- thanks!

And to the Brit who pointed out the difference between Louis and Lewis (Valerie?)-- thank you! I could have sworn that I've heard the Louis in Robert Louis Stevenson pronounced "Loo-ee" but dh had just about convinced me that I must be completely bonkers, since RLS was not French.

Anyway, I don't know if all that information gives anybody the magic ability to solve my quandary, but I sure wish I knew what this little guy should be called...

Patricia and Tirzah--many, many thanks for the info. I do indeed feel better already. Wish I'd posted my names woes four years ago! We planned to go with Addie but I got scared with Addison coming on and all the Maddies on the playground. We tried Laine but it just didn't "take". Patti is rather retro-hip don't you think? But needless to say very confusing to everyone. Patti from Adelaine? Huh? I know, I know.

Is Adelaine called Patti because of the opera singer named Adelina Patti? Seems like such a coincidence if she isn't!

I think Patti is cute--spunky, like Peppermint Patty in Peanuts. But she'll maybe be more likely to hear "Crabby Patty"--the favorite food on Spongebob.

*Madeline*, I loooove the name Madeline, and if I had had a daughter 10-15 years ago (which would have been bad in a teen-pregnancy sense, but . . .) I would have totally considered it. Unfortunately, I do think it is now time-stamped and owes at least some of its popularity to the nickname.

I also have a grandfather Louis (and cousin) pronounced the same as Lewis, though I, too, would shift that pronunciation instantly if I knew the bearer was French. We Americans are certainly odd. ;)

I'm wondering if Yael as a boy's name is an SSA mistake. DH is Israeli and he says it's a girl's name only, and biblical to boot.

You can read up on her story -- she was one tough lady, so I see why the name has stuck around: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yael

I don't see anybody who knows that kind of back story turning this into a boy's name...

A comment on J&H's mom's thesis: ("I'm convinced that a fair amount of the search for originality is driven by moms who grew up with names they perceived as overly popular! Every Jennifer I know still talks about how much she hated being one of half a dozen. My husband informs me that no man (or boy) gives two cents about the popularity of his name. I'm sure there are exceptions to this sweeping gender stereotype, but it does seem to have some truth to it.")

Although I tend to avoid broad "paintbrush" generalizations, this comment triggered a few thoughts on names and gender in the U.S. (and perhaps in other Western countries).

Most Name Enthusiasts are already aware that certain cultures tend toward the tried and true for males (long perceived as the bearers of family names and of tradition and legacy)and towards creative and "unique" for females (who often did not need/get to worry about having their own future kids named after them, or of having their names stamped on the side of an awning or a storefront).

Viewed in light of J&H's mom's comment, it seems that the millions of Michaels, Matthews, and Andrews (and for that matter, the hundreds of thousands of Gregs, Jasons, and Jordans) have not NEEDED the built-in "Uniqueness" Generator of a distinctive name. In U.S. society, boys have been encouraged to make their own "names" so to speak--that is, their identities. Whether a boy is one of twelve Michaels in his neighborhood is immaterial, since he has been encouraged to assert himself and craft his own identity through innovation, commerce, industry, science, or athletics.

Girls, on the other hand, were until very recently, actively discouraged from asserting their own separate identities, which were more acceptably based on those of their husbands and families. So if you were one of twelve Marys or Janes, that (from the mid-20th century on perhaps?) was a real threat to a distinctive identity. Being named Darlene, Maribel, Sherry, or Sheila became a means of handing you a distinction you may not have been assured of carving out on your own.

Louis/Lewis - In my son's class is a little boy called Louie - the parents wanted to make sure there was no confusion over the pronounciation. There's another Louis in the school, also pronounced Louie. So Valerie, the Louis/Lewis split is alive and well in the UK.

re Yael, I did read somewhere that lots of Israeli names are shifting gender - Shai, Stav and Amit for example. But Yael? Surely not. I do know an Isaeli guy called Sharon though, which is a bit unfortunate when you live in London!

Homer--
I'm a little late responding (I live in a time zone 7 hours ahead of EST, so I'm always trying to catch up on comments posted overnight), but OH MY GOODNESS. Thank you for pointing out the "eclair" thing. Anna Claire/"an eclair" is so obvious, I can't believe I missed it. (And there I was wondering if Natalie Claire was too much like "not an eclair.")
Wow, and there I was laughing last week when we found out that our friend's sister's name is Eileen Dover.
Thank you again for pointing that out. Ugh.
(hyz--I've rejected names for lesser reasons, too! Back to the drawing board for us! Thankfully we still have a few months before the birth of this child!)

Oh, and btw, do you think Natalie Claire is just as bad as Anna Claire in terms of the eclair association?

I just reread the rest of the comments I missed and have a few other responses:

Jill and Tk--thanks for adding up the variations! As I was falling asleep last night, it occurred to me that variations on Madeline might be what makes it seem more popular, and it is interesting to me that WITH variations, Natalie still comes out ahead.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what Namevoyager's results for Natalie and Madeline mean for the names' futures?

Unnamed guest who named her daughter Natalie but considered Madeline--Are you happy with your decision despite the rising popularity of Natalie? Are you glad you stayed away from Madeline?

To all those who mentioned the nickname "Maddie" as being the date-stamp--I think you're right, which is why DH and I are still trying to come up with nicknames for Madeline that AREN'T Maddie.

Oh, and I don't know why I've been spelling Madeline this way. DH and I both prefer Madeleine (we like Madeleine L'Engle). What are your opinions on the two variants?

You guys are great!

Oh, and sorry to flood the board, but what do you think of the name Lucy? DH loves it but I'm afraid it's too cutesy.

kate b. -
I think Lucy is lovely... works on a baby, a little girl, a teen, an adult, an old woman. The meaning "light" is great too.

So what alternative nicknames for Madeline/Madeleine have you come up with so far?

You could have:
Mads (I know a German girl who has this as her full name)
Della
Delia
Line (my aunt's nickname, but from Caroline)
Lina/Leina
Ada
Mada (pronounced MAD-a or MAID-a)
Ella
Ellie
Eleina
Addie

Easternbetty-- I enjoy your provocative analysis!

Annemarie-- Thomas, German-Danish surname, Nathaniel, Lily. I think "Edward" would be great with this charming, traditional-leaning group. Giving one's child one's maiden name is definitely 'traditional', so it all fits!

Re: Louis: In the song from the Judy Garland musical "Meet Me in Saint Louis", (set at the time of the 1904 World's Fair), Louis is pronounced "LOU-ee". The song "Meet Me in Saint Louis" was published in 1904, so this pronounciation was extant (if rare) here in the U.S. as far back as then... P.S. You can Google YouTube clips of the cast singing the unforgettable songs in this movie, including "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas", "The Trolley Song", "The Boy Next Door", etc. Just a nostalgic aside!

SusieQ had great nicknames for Madeline. A couple of others: "Mina" ( MY-na ) or "Minnie", for a 19th century feeling...

Andrea,

I have a friend whose parents named her Rosalie Nora -- and then called her Patty. She's been "Patty/Pat" all her life, and that's been fine with her.

annemarie -- Combined with your other kids' names, I'd select Edward or Charles. Charles Edward works nicely.

Re: Louis/Lewis -- I grew up with a boy named Louis (pron. Lewis), and that is how I would say it, unless I knew the bearer was French.

Easternbetty -- Thank you! Your insightful analysis was both interesting and very likely true.

kate b.—using the "telescoping" nicknaming technique, I think that Mally or Melly could also be plausible nicknames for Madeleine (I suppose you could also get Manny or Menny, but those don't sound quite right to me). You could also dip into the nickname pools for other M names and try things like Madge, Molly, May, or Mimi.

If it's worth anything, I actually prefer Natalie, Madeline/Madeleine and Lucy far and above Anna. I know Anna is quite popular on this board, and I've never been able to quite figure out why I don't like it, especially because I do like Anne. I've always felt there was something *pinched* about Anna, while Anne has a more open feeling. Maybe because it makes me think of "anorexic?" Hmm. It may actually have more to do with how it looks written down than how it sounds, with those As closing in on the Ns. Anyway, I do like the other three, though you may also want to brainstorm nicknames for Natalie—otherwise she will probably end up as Nat, which to me sounds like a tiny, annoying insect.

For my DD's name-picking in 2003 born in Dec. we had many choices:Natalie, Noelle, Nicole, Kimberley, Samantha, Shannon, and others. Combined with all the choices I had for middle names I had a pretty big list. It took me 3 days to decide-luckily she had jaundice and didn't leave the hospital right away LOL! Anyway, I do prefer names with a bit of a French flair. We had some other personal connections to Natalie and with the name's meaning that sealed it (after a few tears shed to the other great combos). We chose Natalie Renee. The name fits her though every now and then I think about Kimberley. It is slightly more popular than I had hoped but so far no others in preschool associations.(No Kimberley's or others above either)!
P.S. My great aunt is Madeleine Elizabeth.

kate b -- Forgot to respond to your question about Lucy. I love it! I know a little 4-yr-old Lucy who is the spunkiest girl I've met (next to my own daughter). It's a wonderful name, that as someone else mentioned, ages well.

I reply to Evie's comment about nn's (we were posting at same time)-our dd was supposed to be "Ali/e" but it didn't take so she is called Natalie or other family contrived nn's. We also couldn't stand to think of calling her Nat-an annoying insect.

Oh, also (sorry to post again)—kate b., what pronunciation are you thinking of for Madeline/Madeleine? I'm more familiar with the French form, which in France is pronounced more like mad-LENN (which you'd have a really hard time getting to fly in the States). I've never actually met a Madeline, and I could easily see it being pronounced either MAD-uh-line or MAD-uh-lyn. With the French form, you may also get MAD-uh-layn (in English-speaking countries, that is). Does anyone know what most people are using these days?

annemarie: i like clive! what don't folks like about it? if it's seen as too unusual, maybe cliff, clifford, or clyde?

i like lucy but i do think it might be a little cutesy. also, my three currently pregnant friends were each considering lucy, lucia, and lucas. danger danger! i shared this with one of them and she changed lucia to josephine.

I also think Lucy is a bit too cute. I don't get any kind of elegant or sophisticated vibe when I hear the name. Perhaps as a nickname for something like Lucinda? Lucy is also on the list of most popular pet names in the US.

Oh, and I like the suggestion of Josephine nn Josie as an alternative to Lucy. Josie has the same feel as Lucy, but Josephine brings the needed element of sophistication. In my humble opinion! :)

Zoerhenne, I was interested to see your list begin with the names of the three daughters in a family I know: Noelle, Natalie and Nicole.

I'm surprised by all the talk on this board of nicknames, as I thought more children these days are being called by their full names. Why give a child a name you *really* like, just to call them something else -- particularly if the nickname gives no clue to the given name and doesn't flow easily to and from it?

The Natalie mentioned above, like Zoerhenne's Natalie, is called by her full name. Sure, sometimes someone inadvertently calls her "Nat" in a hurry, but she's mostly called Natalie.