The Baby Name Wizard

Re: -x names, I saw an African-American girl in a magazine the other day, and her name was Onyx. I think that's really cool, sort of like a jewel version of Ebony. It would also be cute as a nickname for Veronica...imo much cuter than Ronnie or Nicki...although I like Vero too (Hey! And it ends with an -o!).

Also, if you say "Maddox, Pax, and Knox" fast, it sounds like "Maddox packs an ox"...just saying.

Vivian's mom - I feel for you! I would be questioning as well if I were in your shoes. However, if you love the name, go ahead and use it. Vivian is not going to be the next Isabella, Sophia or (god forbid) Jayden.

As for the celebrity angle, I mentioned to a friend of mine that I was living in fear that a celebrity would use one of the names I have chosen for my (hopefully soon-to-be-conceived) children. This friend happens to have a 15 year old daughter named Claudia. And she said to me, "When you think of my daughter's name, do you think, 'just like Michelle Pfeiffer's daughter, born 4 months earlier'?" The answer is no, I didn't even know Michelle Pfeiffer had a daughter named Claudia born at the same time as my friend's child. Did you?

It just goes to show that what you think is an inescapable connection now will probably fade to nothing over time.

I hope this makes you feel a little bit better.

Maddox Chivan, Pax Thein, Zahara Marley, Shiloh Noveau, Knox Leon, Vivienne Marcheline, Angelina Jolie Voight, & William Bradley Pitt.

They're so close to having the whole alphabet. Only missing F & Q!!!

I think the Jolie-Pitts ove playing Scrabble.

Go with Vivian if you love it. We watched friends for the first time just before our daughter was due. We'd already chosen the name Phoebe. then we realised that there was this irritating character on this very popular show...we dithered for a minute or so and then decided we didn't care. Adn sometimes people ask if we named her after the character on Friends. And we say no.

Wendy -- no, not a family name at all. But it was both hubby's and my first choice. We had seen the name used as a first name many years before, and both really liked it. I've always been interested in names, since long before I considered having kids, so I had many years to mull over possibilities, and I liked the name more as the years passed.

We didn't actually name the child for two days. We wanted to make sure he really was a Knox. After spending some time with him, we decided he was.

I think a large part of the appeal for me is that I'm part Scottish and part English, and the name, while associated with Scotland, is etymologically English. Like virtually all English words that begin with a silent K, it's a relatively intact transplant from Old English. And I've always been fascinated by Old English, so that added to its appeal.

Fun etymology fact, too -- from memory, so I hope I get it right: Knox means hill; it's also related to the words knoll, knob, knot, and nut, through a Germanic and ultimately Indo-European root that basically means "small bump or round thing."

How's that for dorky, Amy3?

BrooklynBabe -- Not dorky at all. Rather, very cool! I love it when people have such stockpiles of name/word knowledge.

vivians mom -- Go for it! KRC and Keren are right, the celebrity connection is fleeting. And while Vivian/enne may become more popular, I don't think it will ever explode. For too many people it just won't be their style. Plus, at least you're using a different spelling than Brangelina.

My first reaction was that Knox was taking the theme too far. You know, like Jinger. The sound just doesn't appeal to me... I wish it could be Knox- like Knoxville although um, not exactly. Knoxton... Knox... I don't know... anyway, Hearing that it is a family name raises it up for me.

Thanks to the person who posted all the Jolie-Pitts with middles. Does anyone know if Chivan and Thein are Cambodian/Vietnamese names?

Also, do any of the other kids have family names? I'm wondering especially if the biologicals do and the adopted ones don't. I've read adoption boards that said the media paid more attention to the Jolie-Pitts' "real" kid. I think folks in adopted families are sensitive to this kind of thing and I don't know that I've noticed it, but if the Jolie-Pitts are reinforcing the differences between their biological and adoptive kids themselves, that would be interesting.

As for using Vivian: the other thing is that as the Jolie-Pitt family grows, the impact of each name will lessen. I doubt that most people could recall all 6 of their children's names, and they will be less and less able to as the years go on.

I think if you love Vivian, go for it. If someone asks you whether Angelina Jolie was your naming style guru, you can give them your best "are you serious?" look.

As for Knox, my main association with it is unfortunately the expensive (snotty) private boys school up the way (if you aren't enrolled at birth you aren't going). It's a little off-putting and I find it hard to reconcile the name with what I imagine to be the personality of the Jolie-Pitt clan.

I agree. Use Vivian. I love it by thw way. It was on our short list for my now 11 mo son.

Like everyone else..."but Vivienne's normal!"

The religious connotations of "Knox" are foremost in my mind- every Ontario town has a Knox Presbyterian and/or a Knox United Church. Maybe he'll become a rapper in twenty years' time and call himself Knoxious.

BrooklynBabe, do you pronounce Knute like "Newt"? I always thought that one was an exception, and you pronounce the K- Canute (like the English king) and Knut being the same name.

Thanks, Eo. I came up with Colfax by looking for small towns near New Orleans, since I know the Jolie-Pitts own a house there.

Years ago I was a juror for a civil trial. The judge's first name was Knox, so ever since I have thought of it as a serious, stately name.

RobynT -- Chivan is Cambodian (means life) and Thien is Vietnamese (means sky). I agree it's unfortunate if only the biological kids are getting family names of one sort or another.

My sister is adopted and while her mn is her original surname, her fn is also our great-grandmother's name and our aunt's mn.

I think Vivian (Vivienne, Vivien) is going to be *extremely* popular. Vivian ranked at #210 in 2007, it sounds A LOT like Evelyn which ranked at an amazing #55 last year, it has the nicknames Viv/Vivi which sound very close to Liv/Livvy, and as you NEs know, Olivia is sooooo overdone, it has that lovely little letter V, and now it's very much into the mainstream. We just may have another Ava phenom on our hands, folks. I wouldn't touch it unless I truly loved it from the bottom of my heart of hearts.

Also, do any of the other kids have family names? I'm wondering especially if the biologicals do and the adopted ones don't.

Shiloh doesn't have a family name, either. I think the next girl was going to have had Marcheline in her name, adopted or not. Knox also has a family name, but I'm guessing the allure of the name wasn't necessarily the great-grandfather, but that it ended in -x.

I guess you could make the argument that a family name reflects their cultural heritage just as the adopted children have a name reflective of their cultural heritage. But again, Shiloh gets left out there.

Mari - I totally agree. I think it's the next big name. If a one on every playground feel is what you don't want, avoid Vivian and its cohorts. (But I think its a lovely name. I don't mind hearing it and encourage parents not concerned with popularity to use it!)

I hate to say it.. But I agree with Mari.

Use it if you love it, but it's going to be BIG.

Oh. I just wanted to add that I am trying to conceive.. And Leon is one of my future son's names.

That is, unless it explodes. It's already on the rise, and ends in N. :( My guess is that by the time my son is born, I won't want to touch the name with a 10-foot-pole.

Shiloh's middle name is Nouvel, btw.

Use Vivian. You always have nickname options if, worst-case, it goes into pop-culture overdrive--if little Miss Jolie-Pitt is called Vivi (like Rosie O'Donnell's daughter), your daughter can use Viva, or Via, or Vee. Just don't use the initials VD, eh? ;)

Is Shiloh's name a family name?

I do agree that one should go with one's heart's desire. That said, a name with a potential for ultra-popularity can bother me, but even more so if it becomes associated with a narrow sliver of time. If the classical name Vivian/Vivien/Vivienne gets a BIG bump for perhaps ten years, then fades away, that is so "date-stamping" as to be annoying. I suspect that classics like the now VERY popular Abigail, Hannah, Ava, Olivia will demonstrate that traceable rise-fall syndrome. Or will they go on and on, from now on?

I like certain three syllable names like Vivian that have been under-used, like the ravishing "Dorian". Used to be male, of course, but in this one case I don't mind it being poached for the female side.

Although the Jolie-Pitts may be many things, somehow I don't think they themselves would be making a big difference between adoptive and bio children. I could be wrong-- I am not an admirer of theirs, but they do seem to adore their kids without making a distinction.

It does irk me a bit that a few reporters keep making the distinction between the biological and adopted children, in virtually every description of the family. Surely that fact needn't be emphasized in EVERY story-- they are simply a family. (End of soapbox.)

Birgitte:
I like the sound of Carmine, but it reminds me of lipstick, which makes it pretty firmly feminine to me. Also, a little poem randomly included in a recent issue of First Things:
A painter at work on a triptych
Asked the sitter the color for lipstick.
"The only real red
Is carmine," she said,
In a tone a tad too apodictic."
Now, as a name for a girl, the lipstick connection wouldn't bother me... in fact it would remind me of a feminine dressing table... with lipsticks and flowers and a jewelry box. Kind of nice.

I am completely surprised that Vivian is already ranked at 210. I really like a lot of the old-fashioned-now-revived names, but the two that still sound irreversibly fussy and old fashioned to me are Vivian and Evelyn. I just cannot see the appeal. And obviously I am alone, as they are both so popular. Maybe I just don't like "V." Although I would like Ava if it weren't so popular. I feel like Vivian and Evelyn are like Shirley or Gladys. Names that, seriously, would be hard to see on infants. But of course, maybe Shirley and Gladys are rising, too, and I'm just that out of touch.

I've read that Angelina's only sibling James Haven (Voight) has said that Shiloh was named after him. The story is that their parents were going to name him James Shiloh but changed it to James Haven at the last minute.

If that's accurate, then it does seem that each of the three Jolie-Pitt birth kids carries at least one family-related name, while none of the adopted children does.

As a mother of 9 children (now grown) by birth and international adoption, most of whom have a family first or middle name, but not all, I don't think the names are as important as how the parents relate to each child and the children's perception of how their parents feel about each of them.

vivians mom --

I think you should name your daughter Vivian, because you and your husband love it. I fretted and fretted about name popularity before my daughter was born, worrying that whatever we chose MIGHT be too popular and MIGHT date-stamp her etc etc, but now that she is a happy healthy full-of-personality 7 month old, I Just Do Not Care. lol. Her name is her name, and it fits her. FWIW, I do not know a single little Emily (have met I think just one little Emma), so you never know with these popularity rankings. I have a friend who chose Sophie for her future daughter long before it became popular (there are lots of little Sophies around here now) and she has not regretted using the name despite its zooming up the charts right around the time her daughter was born. And I had some advice from a Jennifer who assured me that her popular name had never bothered her growing up and that I should quit worrying about it.

So you have to decide which would be worse: naming your daughter Vivian and then watching it become a popular name; or NOT naming her Vivian and then watching the name stay low on the charts after all. I think the second would be much more disappointing. But maybe that's just me.

Congratulations on your soon-to-be baby! Best wishes for an easy delivery!

According to yahoo.com it says that Leon is also a family name (Brad Pitt's great great grandfather I believe..).
I kind of like the name Leon, but i don't think i would ever use it..

Oh, condolences to Knox and Vivian-to-be's moms. As for Knox, I think it's great to have gotten there first and you can tell people, "Yeah, weirdly, Angelina Jolie named her baby after my son!"

Vivian seems different than Vivienne (they even sound different in the pronunciations I have in my head). And at least you'll get there early. I've said this before but you could have knocked me over with a feather when the name handed down over 10 generations of women in my family-- a name I'd have to have hated to consider not using-- turned out to be in the top 100, peaking a couple of years before my daughter was born. I usually just say her name, followed by, "She's named after my mom." That way I'm not saying anything snotty about other people's maybe-trendy choices or pretending it's not a popular name.

Laurie Anne, the Emilys were born in the 70s. When I began teaching college students in 1996, I had 3 Emilys and 3 Sarahs in every classroom. Emma took over much later, but again, they're off the tot lots now.

Thanks to all who responded about hyphenated names. One of the many reasons to use them is if same-sex parents want to be absolutely clear on school forms that the child is related to both. My daughter can pick either one she wants to use when she is old enough, or keep both even if she marries. We are, last time I looked, in the 21st century.

I didn't mean to sound so harsh on Angelina and Brad if they gave family names only to the biological kids. I could see it being somewhat logical to give the biological kids family names since as someone else mentioned the adopted kids have names that tie them to their cultures. It's giving each kid a tie that is important for them maybe. I'm just curious about how people approach naming I guess.

Everybody, check out this "name expert" report card on the J-P twins' names:

http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx/?news=322705&GT1=BUZZ2

I have already aired my opinions on Jolie's (and Pitt, for that matter)naming style.

I feel annoyed on behalf of BrooklynBabe and son, and dismayed on behalf of the nice lady about to give birth to a Vivian. I agree with Mari and others that Vivian is on its way up. I understand in the rational part of my mind that one cannot reasonably expect one's favorite names to remain like those hole-in-the-wall restaurants one hopes will never attract a wider clientele.

This is actually approaching a sort of pathology, if you think about it (and doesn't make much sense, since when we ourselves latch onto a name, we are contributing to its surge in opularity). And it's a pathology in which I unfortunately share. Although I get no pleasure from saying so, if I had been considering Vivian, given today's naming patterns and Rosie/Jolie's offspring, I'd run the other way from it.

Apparently, I'm quite the one for coinages: how does "opularity" (for opulance + popularity) strike you? ;)

And Beth, your words of wisdom are well-taken despite my popularity pathology:

"So you have to decide which would be worse: naming your daughter Vivian and then watching it become a popular name; or NOT naming her Vivian and then watching the name stay low on the charts after all. I think the second would be much more disappointing."

One year ago I gave birth to a little girl who so very nearly was named Vivian/a. In fact, all through my pregnancy we called her Vivi. As we got closer and closer to delivery I started having doubts. We'd decided on Lucia for a middle name (in honor of her grandmother) and I felt that Viviana Lucia was just way too Italian for a little girl with Norwegian/German ancestry, and also perhaps a bit too froufrou. I just didn't love Vivian quite as much though, so in the end we named her Caroline Lucia. It took me a long time to adjust -- she was still "Vivi" to me for months after birth -- but today I'm happy.

Angelina said this about Shiloh's name in Vanity Fair magazine a couple of months ago:

"It’s a biblical name but we didn’t name her for that. It was a name my parents almost named their first child-- there was a miscarriage: Shiloh Baptist. Because my father had been shooting in Georgia and that was the most southern name [my parents] could come up with. It’s a name I always liked. I used to go under it in hotels: Shiloh Baptist. I’d gone under it when [Brad] called hotel rooms where I was staying".

I, like so many others, really like Vivienne Marcheline (although *anything* would sound good with that middle name; it's so beautiful) but am not so keen on Knox Leon.

When I google Carmine, I get the lipstick connection first and then jazz musicians, restaurants, actors and doctors. And also the composer Carmine Coppola.

I looks like it is firmly grounded as a masculine name and I guess you only think of the lipstick connection if you don't know any Carmine's to begin with. Am I right?

I could never name a kid Marlowe (any spelling of it) due to the association with HBO's "The Wire". If you've seen the show - and I hope everyone has - you'll know why. *shudder*

As for the J-P's, I love Knox and Marcheline... but Vivienne and Leon, not so much.

To AG, who posted earlier. I'm also a name snob who really tries to avoid being trendy.

Imagine my disappointment when in her last blog Laura mentioned Sylvie as being an "up and coming name."

Noooooooo! I just discovered this name and put it on my list should I have another girl.

I will be watching Sylvie closely now. If it suddenly enters the top 1000 (it's not even ranked as of 2007), then I may have to take it off my list. Drat.

Anyway, the zeitgeist phenomenon is why I've recently begun to appreciate classic names, which in the past I wrote off as boring, and not unique enough.

Maybe classic names like Elizabeth and Katherine are popular, but at least they are consistently popular and parents who pick them KNOW they are popular, and don't end up disappointed when picking a name meant to be "different" that suddenly shoots up the charts and looses its luster.

I guess I should stay a little on topic and comment on the twin names. My reaction is "eh." Vivienne is pretty, but I must admit I'm not sure how to pronounce it. The rest of her kids’ names seem to try too hard to be different.

Philomena, thanks for posting Angelina's Vanity Fair quote about Shiloh being both the name her parents had chosen for their first baby, who miscarried, and a pseudonym she has used. That's a different accounting than I had read of why the Jolie-Pitts chose the name Shiloh, but it still comes down to Shiloh and now Vivienne Marcheline and Knox Leon (2 family names) -- all three Jolie-Pitt birth children -- having family names, while the adopted children do not. While it has been noted that the latter have names from their birth countries, those names -- Chivan, Zahara, and Thien -- were not part of the children's original names. I think the 'solution' would be that the next adopted child (and there are rumors of an African boy and/or a Chinese girl) be given a family name to lessen the distinction between the two 'groups' of children in the family.

Laura, I enjoyed the article about your impressions of the newest Jolie-Pitt baby names in the Minneapolis Pioneer Press. Very insightful and a good promotion of your expertise, book and website as well.

I want to offer one minor correction: Léon Bertrand was Angelina's great-great-great-grandfather. The line goes like this: Léon (born 1823 in Québec), Louis Bertrand, George Bertrand, Rolland Bertrand, Marcia Lynne (later Marcheline) Bertrand, Angelina Jolie (Voight).

Reading that the name Léon came from Angelina's French-Canadian heritage, I went looking for her family tree to see if there is any connection with my own. Going back from Léon I found one of my ancestors (whose surname our family bears) among Angelina's ancestors too. This is no big deal because I suspect many of us of French-Canadian descent have at least one common ancestor and are "cousins" to some degree. But it's ironic in light of my never being a fan of Angelina, while my daughter admires and defends her. :-o

Here's the URL for Laura's comments:
http://www.twincities.com/ci_9880069?nclick_check=1

Looking at Angelina's genealogy, I noticed that her name is a family name too: Marcheline's paternal grandmother was Angeline (aka Marie-Louise Angélina Leduc) Bertrand.

Giving their children family names appears to be a tradition in both Angelina's and Brad's families. Angelina's only sibling James has the same name as one of their father's brothers. And Brad's full name is William Bradley Pitt, William being his father's name too.

Time for some 70s trivia: Wasn't Carmine the name of Shirley's boyfriend on Laverne and Shirley? I have an image of a loud guy with curly, dark hair. Do any of you remember that?

Yup, that was Carmine Ragusa. Fun fact: the actor who played him wasn't Italian (as his character was)--Eddie Mekka was born Edward Mekjian, in an Armenian-American family in Massachusetts.

Thank you, Elizabeth T and Sister Melinda. I was beginning to think I was the only one who remembered Carmine Ragusa! That's all I can think of when I hear the name.

Re: the Jolie-Pitts, I agree it's far more important how the parents regard and treat all the children rather than what their names are, BUT I also think it would be appropriate to give the next adopted child a family name.

Blythe asked:

>>BrooklynBabe, do you pronounce Knute like "Newt"? I always thought that one was an exception, and you pronounce the K- Canute (like the English king) and Knut being the same name.

Yeah, I've always heard it pronounced "newt," but then I've never actually known anyone with that name, and it's perfectly possible that's either an unusual variant or just flat wrong.

Incidentally, in Old English the hard "K" sound was pronounced, as it still is in German words beginning with "Kn." The Old English spelling of the root word is "Cnocc"; may I recommend that anyone reading this who wishes to name their baby after Angelina's consider using this far cooler, more authentic, Scrabble-winning, cutting-edge variant? Thanks.

Regarding Carmine, I think of it as masculine. It may be down to how close you are to Italian culture, and living in Brooklyn, I've had plenty of exposure to it. And while I never saw Laverne & Shirley, it definitely does make me think of a loud guy with curly dark hair.

Clio seems already to have been trendy and overdone amongst my set in the San Francisco area. Knox is .... oouch. Much prefer Rex or something slightly traditional to go with Maddox and Pax. Pax is my favorite of these.

Carmine makes me think of "Little Carmine," the dopey mob-boss/porn producer on The Sopranos who was renowned for his entertaining malapropisms. Any fans remember him?

My former roommate also named her Italian Greyhound Carmine. It's so hard to readjust and think of a name for people once you've known it on a dog (like my problem above with Shadow---hyz, I agree that it's a black lab name). When I think of Carmine, I think of this skinny, neurotic little pup. But I'm open to changing those perceptions!

An addition:

This is also why I generally don't like giving dogs "ordinary" people names. I find it so odd to meet a dog named Sarah or Annabel (both of which I have). It just doesn't compute. Growing up, our dogs were Mosby and Duffy.

Of course, now I went and named my dog Bella after my favorite Dickens character (Bella Wilfer) only to learn that it was the number 1 dog's name of the year! I never thought that would be me. Better to have that experience with a dog than a child, I guess :)

Are you folks pronouncing Carmine the Italian way (Car-MEE-nay) or the English (CAR-mine)?

I like Vivienne, and I agree that it's definetly going to rise in popularity.

Carmine is masculine and Italian. It's very rare, I'm married to an Italian and I've lived in Italy for years and have never met a Carmine, but maybe it's because I live in northern Italy, and Carmine is a typical "southern" name.

Valerie, the Italian pronunciation of Carmine is CAR-mee-nay, the accent is on the first syllable.

I disagree with the idea that Angelina and Brad should give their next adopted child a family name. From my friendships with many families who have adopted girls from China, it is most important that the kids retain a tie to their cultural heritage, particularly if the parents are not of that ethnicity. The old ideas that you should completely integrate them into their new culture and family has been generally discarded. Now, families make a strong effort to bring the traditions of the original home country into their new homes. May adoptive families start this off by either retaining the child's original name as the middle name, or giving them a middle name from their original home as Angelina and Brad has.

Another note, it is not part of the Asian tradition to pass on family names from generation to generation. Each generation gets their own set of names.