The baby name world can now rest easy: the Jolie-Pitt twins have arrived. Everyone, please welcome Knox Leon and Vivienne Marcheline.
As we've discussed here before, Angelina Jolie is a rare style-maker in the field of baby names. Fashion trackers wait on her name selections the way investors used to hang on every word from Alan Greenspan. So will Knox and Vivienne get the same boost as Maddox and Shiloh?
Let's start with the most surprising of all the Jolie-Pitt baby names: Vivienne. Surprising because it's perfectly traditional. Vivienne is simply the French feminine form of Vivian, modestly common in the U.S. during Vivan's heyday in the 1910's-20's. In fact, many more Viviennes have been born in the U.S. than in France over the past century. Vivian is already a comeback name and the Spanish/Italian Viviana is hot too, so Vivienne simply fits in comfortably.
Knox is a step apart. Most Americans associate it first with the gold of Fort Knox, second with Knox gelatine, and third with "Mr. Knox, sir" of Fox in Sox. (A fine character name to be sure, but it's no Sylvester McMonkey McBean.) Knox was a natural choice for the Jolie-Pitt family, since all of their boys have -x names and Mr. Pitt has a Knox in his family tree.
Despite the fashion power of the letter x, I don't see Maddox-like popularity ahead for Knox. If you're looking for the next great x name, then, it's time to strike out on your own. Below are some creative x names with potential...
Calix
Fox
Hendrix
Lennox
Lomax
...and while we're at it, some o names (male and female) as alternatives to Shiloh.
Arrow
Callisto
Cielo
Clio
Harlow
Jericho
Juno
Marlowe
Shadow
Willow
Winslow
Knock Knox: The X & O roundup
07/14/2008, 9:32AM
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Comments
I went to college with a very masculine guy named Carmine. Pronounced CAR-mine.
Sensible (and amusing) naming commentary from the London Telegraph: "Angelina Jolie has failed the name game"
"Judith Woods regrets that the Pitts saw sense when naming their twins - but knows the children will one day thank them for it"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main.jhtml?xml=/portal/2008/07/15/ftan...
I think Felix has a lot of potential. It has the kicky -x ending, a great meaning and is unusual but not unknown.
New twins:
Tate Franklin (boy)
Cecelia (nn CeCe) Ruth (girl)
I love it!
Re: adopted vs. biological kids getting family names.
Arrgh. Don't go there. While I am not a fan of the Jolie Pitt family, I see nothing that indicates that they treat their kids differently depending on how they arrived in the family.
I am an adoptive parent. My daughter's name is not a family name, she does have part of the name she was know by in the orphanage as one of her middle names. I plan to adopt again, my next daughter's name will include family name... why? Because my great aunt died after my first daughter's adoption and I wish to honor her. If these kids were biological, or one had been adopted and one was biological the result would have been the same result.
In fact, in my family, about half have family names, the others do not... the circumstances surrounding the naming of the child varied and of course parental preference came in. And interestingly enough, the older children in general are LESS likely to have family names than the younger ones. Perhaps because the parents first chose names they REALLY love and by the time they get to baby 2 or 3 they can't agree on a name so they start naming after relatives. :)
Personally, if I was Maddox or Pax I would be glad that I did not get the family name Knox Leon... (no offense Brooklyn Babe, but Knox isn't my style and as you said Knox Leon Jolie Pitt is a mouthful).
Wow, some of you are already calmly discussing Brangelina's next adoption and I'm thinking of the friends I know with young twins who took at least a year to get used to the idea, let alone having four other children and both having international careers. I'm really hoping six will be enough!
But Valerie, they've often remarked that they want Zahara to have someone who "looks like her" in the family the way Maddox and Pax have each other. That leads me to believe at least one more adoption will be in the works.
Plus, with 1 nanny per child, they've definitely got the help to make things run more smoothly. Not saying that twins aren't difficult, regardless of the family's situation, but I have a feeling your friends are maybe a bit more on their own than the Jolie-Pitts when it comes to childcare.
Does anyone know how many children Mia Farrow wound up having, through birth or adoption?
Mia Farrow ended up with a total of 15 children through both birth and adoption!
Yup, there are so many theories in the adoption world, and they can be a bit difficult to navigate.
We adopted a local, American foster care infant who has no known international ties. Had he been from Haiti or India, we might have considered incorporating a name used in those countries, but I rather doubt it. We certainly would have talked from the beginning about his country of origin, and encouraged learning about it, etc.
As I've babbled about here ad nauseum, we loaded him up with as many family names as possible- (all three middle names are from relatives.) We did choose a first name with a vague similarity to his birth name, only because he wasn't freed for adoption until age two, so during home visits etc. to the birth family he had been hearing his birth name. We didn't want his little identity to be shaken. Serendipitously, that similar name we chose turned out to ALSO be a family name of ours, which we didn't know at the time!
To me, once you create a family, by however means, those names become a kind of community property. Banks has as much right to have Perry as one of his middle names as I do-- we're both related to my mother's family, just through different means. It doesn't mean he must reject his "bio" relatives, or not be interested in their origins too.
I don't think one need be doctrinaire about bestowing family names, but as a bit of a sentimentalist, I can't imagine not using them for MY children, adopted or biological. If the Jolie-Pitts did indeed make some kind of (to my mind, artificial) distinction, I find it disappointing. But, who knows, for sure?
From Wikipedia:
Tirzah, most of the children (primarily girls) adopted from China are not yet adults, so we'll need to ask them about names some years from now. Also, a large percentage of Chinese girls have been adopted by families with no birth children, so the factor of some children being born to the parents while others were not would not come into play in those families. I agree that it can be a good idea to give the child a name from his birth culture/language, preferably one of his/her own original names. And I agree that adoptive parents should try to create a tie between their children and others of their ethnic background, even though that is often very difficult to do because the children themselves want to assimilate and because you can't teach a culture that isn't your own. Too, those who are of that culture (such as native Koreans or even Korean Americans) often don't consider a child raised by American parents as *really* one of them. For my Vietnamese immigrant friends, being Vietnamese means being culturally Vietnamese and speaking the language fluently. They see my two (adult) sons adopted from Vietnam (as babies) as Americans. And one of those sons has observed that many Korean or Vietnamese adoptees identify closest with other Asian American adoptees.
When you have a mixed family of children born to the parents and children adopted internationally, there can be perceptions among the children, correct or not, that a parent prefers the adopted children -- or the birth children. In our family our oldest (birth) child sometimes believed I preferred "the orphans", while after he grew up, one of our adopted sons said he had thought my husband preferred our birth son when they were children but sees now that that wasn't the case.
With the Jolie-Pitt family having a naming schism (probably unintentionally) between adopted children who carry no family names and birth children who do, I would advocate naming the next adopted child a name that has both a name from his/her country of origin and a family name, even if it takes three names to accomplish that.
As for Asian naming traditions, those are fine for children named by their Asian parents, but I believe that giving a family name to an internationally adopted child can be very meaningful. Our first two children, by birth, have names from our families (our parents, siblings). Our second daughter, adopted from Korea, has my first name as her middle name, and our second son, also adopted from Korea, has my husband's first name as his middle name. That has always been very special for him, and he named his first son that name too.
Fina, interesting you mention Mia Farrow. I can remember way back always being excited to hear what she would be naming her newest child-- she had real naming flair from the start! I like the way both she and the earthy Marie Osmond seem to regard their large clans. When questioned about which of her many children are adopted, and which biological, Marie sometimes responds with a laugh, "Oh, I can't possibly remember"!
And thanks, Fina for that updated list. I didn't know what some of the later ones were. Thaddeus W. Farrow and Gabriel Wilk Farrow-- handsome. Interesting that some of them seem to have "flexible" names, shifting back and forth to different ones...
Patricia, I appreciate your insights. I just wanted to reply to your comment that Koreans don't see adoptees as really Korean.
Each culture has their own requirements for what makes them of that culture. My husband is Japanese. In order to be really considered Japanese by a Japanese native, you must have citizenship, language, culture knowledge and Japanese blood. Hence, my husband, a 3rd generation Japanese American, is not accepted as really Japanese by natives. In China, however, you only need to have Chinese blood to be considered Chinese. I am 6th generation Chinese American. My grandparents' generation, my parents' generation and my generation do not speak Chinese. Yet we feel very accepted by the Chinese native community. Hence, I suspect that the adopted Chinese girls will also feel accepted when they become adults. America is unusual in that it only requires citizenship to be a "real" American.
I find the different requirements of various cultures very interesting.
My daughter is Chinese. I am not. We go to a Chinese American church which has 1-4th generation immigrants many of whom speak Chinese, many don't. She is accepted as Chinese by all in the church and through out the Chinese Community in our area.
What I find funny is just about every white adoptive family I know has incorporated part of their child's Chinese name into their English one.
On the other hand, all the Chinese American families I know follow the custom of giving the child a legal English name and a separate Chinese name. There is no expectation of having a Chinese name incoporated in the legal name.
Wendy,
Thanks for sharing about your experiences with the Chinese American (non-adopted) community. My kids went to Korean church as children and they too were acknowledged as being Korean, and we all -- non-Korean parents and our children -- were welcomed by the congregation.
But within the wider Korean-American community, and especially in Korea, the adoptees are seen as a group apart, and it's often difficult (to impossible) for them to be accepted as 'regular' Koreans as adults.
As for names, one of my sons married a native Korean. They live in NY where my son is a professor and spend their summers in Korea. Their sons' legal names are American-name Korean-name Surname. I've seen this as a common practice with Korean American families (immigrant parents) that I've known. The boys sometimes are called by their American names and sometimes by their Korean names. This works well for my sons' family so far (the boys are 2 yrs. and 3 mos.) and pleases both sets of grandparents. :-)
Congratulations on your forthcoming addition to your family!
I agree that native/cultural Koreans don't really seem to know what to make of Korean adoptees. If you're just an American born person with Korean blood, raised by Korean parents, but you're not culturally Korean (don't speak the language fluently, don't follow various traditions, etc.), native Koreans often feel free to judge you as a "bad Korean". If you're a person with Korean blood adopted by a non-Korean family, though, I think the reaction is more one of pity/distance. They can't judge you, because it's not your "fault", but they can't relate to you like another Korean person, either.
To the extent that naming can help alleviate any of the alienation a Korean adoptee might feel from both their native and adoptive cultures, I can see good reason to try to give both a Korean name and a western familial name. But, honestly, I think the way a child is raised will tell him a lot more about how much his parents love him than whether he got Uncle Bill's name or not, and I don't see any indication that the J-Ps are doing anything to create insecurity in the adoptive children about how much they're loved, relative to the bio kids. I remember reading, when Angelina was pregnant with Shiloh, that she really hesitated about having a bio kid because she didn't want the adopted kids to ever feel like they were loved any less. She was more concerned about them getting this feeling from Brad than from herself--but she said that when she saw how totally and perfectly in love Brad was with the adopted kids, she felt confident that they would never feel second best. (Ok, so I'm *terrible* with pop culture, but I do keep up with Angelina and Brad--I've always liked both of them.) So I can't feel too critical about any of their naming choices, at least from that perspective. It seems that all the kids have gotten carefully considered, personally meaningful names, and as an NE, I couldn't ask for more than that.
re: the Jolie-Pitt's...
My .02, fwiw. When my neice was born, my SIL didn't give her a "family middle name" as every other child in our family had (nor was her first name a "family name"). I complained to my dh about it, "How sad! Tiffany doesn't have a family name!" and his answer? "Yes she does. Our LAST NAME is a family name."
So to me, it's the *care you give in choosing a name for your child* that counts, whether it's The Name You Love, a name you feel represents what you want to "say" to your child, a name from their country of birth, or a name that's been used for generations in your family (whether you love it or not).
"My kids went to Korean church as children and they too were acknowledged as being Korean, and we all -- non-Korean parents and our children --were welcomed by the congregation."
Patricia, I've noticed that this varies a lot from church to church, which I guess is to be expected. We've seen Korean churches that are relatively welcoming (as much as they can be, considering that most services are in Korean, and much casual social chat is also in Korean)--but they genuinely seem to want anyone with some Korean connection to join their church/community. On the other hand, we've had the funny (to us) experience of going to Korean grocery stores where Korean church members were proselytizing outside (handing out flyers and such)--they approached every Korean that walked up, and they start walking towards DH too, until they see he's with me (a whitey, lol). Then they turn on their heels and speed away. DH calls me his proselytizer repellent. He jokes, but the nasty looks from the old ladies in the store when they see him with me do make him uncomfortable--we don't linger over our shopping....
okay, this is totally OT... please bear with me...
Tirzah, Patricia and Hyz -- appreciate your viewpoints don't disagree...giving my experience only... we will have to wait and see what happens when the Chinese adoptees get older...if their experience mirrors the experience of the Korean Adult Adoptees.
My hope is that given the rise of interracial marriages in the US between Asians and whites, that many Chinese Amercian children with Chinese parents do not speak Chinese, that my daughter is part of a Chinese American Community where she gets exposed to the cultural traditions and rules, and the general blending of cultures that my daughter will be comfortable and accepted in the Chinese AMERICAN community as an adult.
That said, my Chinese exchange student was VERY critical of my cousin who is half Chinese and half white and was raised in a Chinese American community where he was cared for by his grandmother who only speaks mandarin... in fact, his first language was Mandarin.
They were both 16 when she met him and afterwards she ranted that he was NOT Chinese because he spoke Chinese like a baby. (Which was true... he and all his Chinese American teenage friends had refused to speak Chinese and he therefore lost his ability to speak it fluently...)
So, whether the Chinese will accept my daughter as Chinese is unknown...
Wendy
Beth said: "Laurie Anne, the Emilys were born in the 70s. When I began teaching college students in 1996, I had 3 Emilys and 3 Sarahs in every classroom. Emma took over much later, but again, they're off the tot lots now."
Actually, there are A LOT of baby Emilys still hiding out there somewhere: Emily ranked #2 in 2007 (combining spellings). And Sarah was #14.
I am shocked that Evelyn is more popular than Vivian.
Does anyone know what's up with Evelyn? I mean, is there some pop culture boost it got that I am clueless to? (Btw, I think it's a great name, just a little surprised it's so highly ranked.) Or is it just a natural for the times because of its own merits?
Still OT from naming--please feel free to ignore...
Wendy,
I agree with Tirzah's take on the difference between Chinese and some other E. Asian viewpoints on how "acceptable" deviations from 100% blood/language/culture/etc. are. I really don't think our experiences with Korean people would translate exactly to your daughter's experience. In fact, I asked a friend of mine who was born in China, raised very Chinese in America by Chinese parents, whether she ever caught flack for having a white husband and a mixed race child. She said that, to the contrary, she never had any problems from Chinese people, AND that she even had cousins in China who were actively trying to marry white men (which she claimed was some sort of trend there, and this has been kinda backed up for me by a Taiwanese friend) because they thought mixed race (Asian/white) babies were the cutest. Her words. I was surprised. I also know a number of people with Chinese heritage in other "mixed marriages" (Chinese/Korean, Chinese/Japanese, etc.), and the Chinese side of the family always seems to be the more open and accepting one. So, as far as your daughter is concerned, I'd guess she is better positioned than many people to be welcomed and accepted by a variety of cultural groups. Sorry if my earlier comments caused undue concern!
I think Evelyn is soaring up the charts because it has the beginning E, which is so popular in Emily, Emma, Emme, Ella, Ellie, Eden, Edie, Eleanor, Eloise and the prized V to boot. Its nicknames, Evie (rhymes with heavy), Eve, Evie (rhymes with Tv), Ev are very snappy and so in line with the current style for little girls. The beginning vowel is big too, I think - Ava, Anna, Avery and the whole off with their heads crowd.
I know another baby Leon recently and I think it will be fairly popular. I have several adopted siblings and am the only one who wasn't. I don't have a family name but many other siblings do. It didn't stop the whole You like so and so better than me. Talking to some of my friends without adopted siblings, I am convinced that this is just a part of sibling rivalry more than anything. I think that the names will only be an issue if there is an issue already there. When people fill unequal then they take those things as symbols of the inequality and I don't think that they cause those feelings by themselves. Since becoming a parent I've become a big believer in the do your best and do it with love philosophy. I know it has to apply in naming too.
Off topic: does anyone know how to pronounce Adelia? I came accross this name when comign my ancestry for names for the sibling game and I really like it but can't decide how to pronounce it.
I think Evelyn is popular for all the reasons KRC named (except that I don't think you can call Edie or Eloise popular names, considering they don't appear in the SSA top 1,000. Maybe on this blog, but that's another matter).
It also has the exact same meter as the ostensible #1 name, Emily. They're both dactyls (long-short-short), as are Addison/Madison, Madelyn (in all its variations), Isobel, Abigail, Annabel and Joshua, Christopher, Anthony. And, for that matter, Vivian/Vivienne! I think it's a metrical pattern that sounds fresh to parents. Though it seems to appeal more to parents of girls than boys, just from looking at that quick list.
So, it's a name with an appealing rhythm that's similar to other current chart-toppers, it features the dashing inner-V, it has a cute nickname (Evie) and the benefit of very few namesakes in current namers' own and parents' generations. Even famous namesakes are lacking for Evelyn, with the exception of Waugh. And I doubt that many of the current Evelyns are named for him.
I've often heard it said that names run in hundred-year cycles, and I think Evelyn might be more evidence of this trend. The name makes me think of Evelyn Nesbit. I guess you could call her the first supermodel. She was the world-famous "Gibson Girl" at the turn of the century; she married the then-equivalent of a billionaire, and in 1906 her jealous (and psychotic) husband murdered her former lover, the celebrated architect Stanford White. The love triangle had been weird and kinky and the trial was a huge, lurid sensation. I'm pretty sure that's why the name had a huge spike in the 1910s. Now that most people have forgotten Evelyn Nesbit, I think Evelyn just sounds like one of those charming, innocent, flowery Victorian names.
The only other association I have with the name is the male British author Evelyn Waugh; but his name is pronounced EVE-a-lin, so it's not quite the same name.
Coll,
That's funny that Edie and Eloise are not even in the top 1000! I didn't know that - I just spit out that list off the top of my head - but I know quite a few Edies under 6 years old and at least 3 baby Eloises. I guess they are inordinately represented among children I've met.
You are quite right about Evelyn having the pleasing meter of long-short-short.
The 2 high-school aged Evelyns I have had were Hispanic. Possibly, this name is also on the radar because it works well in Spanish. (But, I have had few Hispanic students overall, so it is hard to say).
When we named our son, Parks, we had more than a few people ask if we would spell it with an "X"!! I thought that was a bit much, personally.
I do like Knox and I love Lex.
Maybe Chinese culture is more open to overseas Chinese who don't speak the language because there is no one language. Here's a good argument starter: whether Chinese dialects can be treated as different languages, when they are phonologically different but share the same character set and meaning assigned to those characters. Does anyone know if there is any friction among the populations of Chinese speaking different dialects, or among the different Chinese ethnic groups?
Also, mentioning how Leon and Angelina are far-flung family names reminds me of a previous blog about how if you go back far enough any name becomes a family name. 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, and so on, other relatives, taking into account all the middles, modifying for gender... The list becomes long. Then you match for the style you are trying to achieve.
This won't quite follow the track of the thread, but I'd suggest Niko as a brother for a Knox.
Obviously the boys' names have a similar sound, but if I had to pick an odd one out (in terms of names only), it would be Pax.
For some reason that one has such a "hippy," vibe to me, which I don't get from the other children's names at all.
If I were suggesting a sibling for a random Pax and ethnicity weren't a concern, I think I'd throw out Kai.
I think wikipedia might be a little off with Mia Farrow's kids -- I've followed her family quite a bit over the years, and have only ever known of 14 kids, not 15 ... Gabriel Wilk is stumping me, as I'd never heard that name before, and looking again at the list of her kids, I think Thaddeus and Gabriel Wilk might be the same person (the kids seems to change their names a lot) ... read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93988,00.html (Thaddeus is not mentioned in this article as one of the kids, but he is in the wikipedia article referred to above by Fina).
Also, referring to the previous post about "new" names by dropping the first letter of other names, I saw today the name "Auren" -- like Lauren without the "L"?
^in my dialect Auren sounds like Orrin. I wonder if that is an influence.
You appear to be right, Kate. According to IMDB this would be the list of her children: Mia has 14 children: twins Matthew Phineas and Sascha Villiers, and Fletcher (all with Previn), Satchel O'Sullivan Farrow (with Allen), (now called Seamus), Soon-Yi Previn, Lark Song Previn, Summer Song (called Daisy) Previn, Moses Amadeus Farrow (called. Misha Farrow, adopted with Allen), Dylan O'Sullivan Farrow (called Eliza, adopted with Allen), Isaiah Farrow, Tam Farrow, Keili-Shea Farrow, Gabriel Wilk Farrow. Tam Farrow died in March of 2000 of a heart ailment.
I also think you are correct in assuming Thaddeus is the same person as Gabriel, although the Wikipedia list does have them as separate people (but, it's Wikipedia...)
As someone who follows her family, do you happen to know why so many of the kids have changed their names?
Thank you to everyone for your comments on Vivian.
The baby is still not here and furthermore, we haven't decided what to do. I feel like this is a bad dream and at the same time that I am being petty and slightly ridiculous.
I am less than thrilled in giving a child a name that will be common or seen as dated in 10-20 years. But at the same time, I have been thinking about what Laurie Anne said "NOT naming her Vivian and then watching the name stay low on the charts after all." That would kill me, especially if we settled with a name that neither of us loved.
I don't have a common first name, but it is a name that I have never liked. (in fact, one thing I love about BabyName Wizard, is how Laura can be so brilliantly descriptive about a name without being subjective, but even under my name there was a suggestion to use something else) I have memories as early as 5 as wishing I had a different name- I guess that may explain why this is so difficult for me. I always wished I had a different name or at least a nickname.
But, maybe having a common name isn't that bad? I just wish for my child to be distinguished from others (in a good way, of course) and I guess I see a rarer name aiding in that. Is the only thing that will distinguish her from other Vivian's, her last name initial like all the Jennifer's that I grew up with? And if so, is that really so bad?
We have tried coming up with other names and in some weird twist of fate, we can't find our baby name books.
I guess we just wish the perfect name would just drop out of the sky. I guess we thought it had until this..
Anyway, thanks again!
I saw a birth announcement that had the name Hannon on it -- Shannon (like me) without the S?
Vivian's Mom: My own baby is due in 2 weeks and just this week I went into a frenzy to find all my baby name books - I even drove to another town to get a copy of Laura's book because I can't find mine! I'm sure some second thoughts are normal and the J-P twins are definitely not helping.
I think the fact that Vivian is such a "normal" (and I meant that in a very positive way) name will always distance it from being date stamped by a celebrity namesake.
I knew a little girl named Kellyn Aurora and always loved the cadence of it, though I'm not a huge fan of Kellyn. Any other lyrical suggestions?
Vivian’s Mom?:
I’m sorry you lost your name books! How about some suggestions for Vivian alternatives?
If you like the V, what about:
Valencia
Venetia
Venice
Verity
Veronica
Victoria (I like the nickname Vica, pronounced VEEK-a)
Viola
Violet
Violetta
Virginia
Viveca/Vivica
Viviana (really sufficiently different from Vivian in my opinion, though undoubtedly more flowery.)
Or, if you like the flavor and rhythm of Vivian, what about:
Beverly
Marian/Marianne
Adeline
Camille
Cecile
Gillian
Gwendolyn
Helen/Helene
Imogen
Jocelyn
Tamsin
Yasmine
Yvonne/Ivonne
Lavinia
Ingrid
Bridget
Isolde
Elaine
Isolde and Elaine are, like Vivian, prominent in the Arthurian literature. But of all the names above, Gillian and Imogen are the closest to Vivian in my opinion, and both are quite nice. I like the option of calling a Gillian Jill and Imogen is such a pretty name that I read once had something to do with the word “imagine”… although now I’m wondering if it’s one of those names invented by Shakespeare. Oh, well, I’ll have to look it up.
" Is the only thing that will distinguish her from other Vivian's, her last name initial like all the Jennifer's that I grew up with?"
No--never, in any case, are two children with the same first name SOLELY distinguishable by their surname initial. Your daughter will be a unique individual in SO MANY WAYS. You could name her Emma and she'd be just exactly as likely to do wonderful and amazing things in life, I promise. And a happy, secure Ava is always going to be her own person, even if she shares her first name with a classmate or two.
Your daughter might like her name. She might not. She might like it during some phases of life and not during others. That's all perfectly normal. But she's more likely to appreciate her name if you convey to her that it was chosen with care and given as a precious gift, the best YOU could find for HER, period.
Vivian's Mom,
I think Vivian is the right name for you. Vivian strikes a nice balance between unusual and known. I have a 5 year old and an almost 2 year old. I don't know any Vivians of any spelling. Let's look at the names above and below the name Vivian in the 2007 rankings --Vivian's sisters in popularity we might say.
These are the kids I know:
205 Aniyah - 0 children
206 Hope - 1 child (7 years)
207 Alivia - 0 children with this spelling
208 Cassidy - 1 child (5 years)
209 Chelsea - 0 children
210 Vivian - 0 children
211 Kiara - 0 children
213 Tiffany - 0 children
214 Caitlyn - 1 person with this spelling
215 Camryn - 0 children
216 Aliyah - 0 children
Basically, I know a Hope, a Cassidy and a Caitlyn. So I think it's safe to say that you might meet 1 other Vivian her age, but you might not. So Vivian is certainly not excessively popular right now.
Regarding the next 20 years, I think the statistical chance of Vivian passing up the 209 names more popular than Vivian to become the new Isabella or Sophia is extremely slim. Even with the Jolie/Pitt boost, I don't think it will go up 200 places. Shiloh is only at 804 and Zahara and Pax don't even rank in the top 1000. So Jolie/Pitt doesn't have as much influence as we might think.
So I say name your baby Vivian!! It's your favorite name. You will never regret using your favorite name.
Tirzah,I appreciated your closer look at the charts. But I feel that your argument about Zahara and Pax and Shiloh not rocketing up the charts actually supports some posters' (inluding mine) inkling that Vivienne/Vivian WILL.
What makes some names poised to shoot up the charts? Obviously, it's a combination of factors. But we might agree that at the very least, the most popular, tops-of-the-charts names are ones that may seem "fresh" but that have some sort of connection--whether in letter, rythmn, sound, etc.--to names past, such that they seem appropriate or acceptable. At first blush (to some surprised grandparents, maybe), Madison may have seemed a bit too "fresh" to bestow on a girl child. But it was really familiar in its own way, in its faux-links to the venerable Madeline and Alison, in its Anglo surname as first name pattern. Emma not only has a long historical and literary pedigree but aslo has much in common with Emily. Jennifer had the links to the early 20th century actress, but I think, even more importantly, it had sounds in common with traditional names like Genevieve. And so on.
Zahara has less such linkages within Western culture. That is not to say that American parents won't choose it in greater numbers--I'm sure they will--but that it has less of the "package" needed to shoot up the charts. I think Shiloh and Pax, on the other hand, may well continue their climb, considering Shiloh's biblical references, Civil War reference, and popular "oh"-sound ending. Pax might become a pseudo-edgy alternative to the common Max, Lex, and Rex.
But even if these names don't ever break the top 100, Vivian--like Evelyn, Eloise, and Avery (male to female transfer), for example--seems like its package might very well position it quite high on the charts. Others have pointed out several aspects of this package, including the "v", the meter/rythmn and sound, attractive meaning, etc. And I would add that the perception of the name as a traditional, venerable one used throughout history--like Sophie and Ellie and Charlotte and Isabella--that is not a "trendy-"stamped creation (like Neveah or Jayden)will contribute to the name's continued rise.
Also, precisely because of these perceptions of VIvian as a "rare but still familiar" name, I predict it will climb where Pax and Maddox and Zahara and Shiloh will hit a glass ceiling. There are any number of reasons parents might choose the name Vivian--none of which have anything to do with the Jolie-Pitt child, but with, for example, deceased relatives with the name, or admiration for a public or historical figure with the name. The has had its debutante ball already and has been out and about in society for a good long while. Because people will hear "Vivian" and think of some of these other influences instead of or in addition to Vivienne J-P, Vivian is a far safer choice for parents than any of the other J-P kids' names.
Having said that, I agree that if VIvian's Mom will find herself sighing wistfully and sadly every time she said "Imogen, go to bed," or "Eat your Cheerios, Gillian," she should go with Vivian.
Sushi, that was fantastically put.
Vivan's Mom? -- I don't know what your name is, but your tantalizing description of it made me think for some reason of "Sheila." I would not describe it as common, and I once read an essay in which the author thought it seemed like the type of name one wished had been bestowed on someone else!
And I agree that Laura does a pretty good job of not getting too subjective with her descriptions (although some descriptors like "stylish" toe the line between merely describing what others have chosen in increasing numbers and a value judgment). I will never forget the exact baby name book in which my name (bestowed on a character about three generations my senior, of course), was described by the authors as essentially unthinkable for a young girl born in the late 20th century. I think they used adjectives like "colorless" and "old, but not in the cool retro way--just the plain and old way."
For Vivian's mom,
Yeah, I feel for 'ya. When I read about the newest Pitt-Jolie daughter, my first thought was "Noooooo!" as Viviane is such a wonderful name with a great Arhurian history and meaning (something like "life," yes?). It's not like there will be five other Vivian's (or Vivianne's or Vivienne's or god help us, Vyvynne's) in your daughter's kindergarten class, but nobody (at least on this blog, I think) wants anyone to think that they were influenced overly by pop culture.
(My husband and I ultimately rejected the otherwise beautiful name Gwyneth for our third daughter because of the actress; not that we don't like her per se, but because we never wanted anyone to ask, "Oh, like Gwyneth Paltrow?")
I think Viviane and all of its variations will rise in popularity, because it fits the dactyl (good point, that), -en, and "v" considerations.
But if you like it, do it. If anyone ever says, "Oh, like Brangelina?" you can always say, "Um, no," as another poster suggested.
So, good luck and let us know, please, what you ultimately decide!
To clarify: the book was a circa-1992 book of soap opera character names.
Kayla, Lucas, Reed--these were the names the authors praised to the skies as fresh and pretty and posed for naming-success (perhaps the equivalent of a Daytime Emmy for names? The Nammy, anyone? Actually that one's already taken, by the Native American Grammy awards. But how about the Etty, as in [Name] Etymology? Or the Nommie, for the Nomenclature Awards?)
I have read the entire story about the small little baby which is very cute and her name is also so nice.
________________________
jecika
Vivienne Marcheline
Brooklyn Babe - Having once read that a picture of Evelyn Nesbit was L.M. Mongomery's muse for Anne of Green Gables, I'm a little shocked to hear all that! :)
I would say to Vivian's mom, don't worry. It's in the 200s - that's really pretty low, and even if it does rise, she's still unlikely to have several other Vivians in her class; it can't rise that fast (said she, tempting fate). It depends on your area and circle, too - there are probably lots of little Emmas out there who are the only one in a nursery full of Jaydyns, Jazlenes and Addisons, and vice versa.
In the end, I think if you focus too much on statistics and trends, every time you meet or hear of a Vivian/enne/ana for the rest of your life, you'll be thinking "Damn, another one!" and mentally building a popularity chart. And feeling pangs of regret if it doesn't become popular and you didn't use it. The most important thing is that you love the name and it feels right for your daughter. If you don't mind me being frank, I feel it would be a big mistake to reject it at this stage because someone else had the same idea. Unless we're talking saturation levels, popularity is one of the least important facets of a name when you truly love it, imho. Sometimes we NEs (me included) are guilty of getting a bit too "stocks and shares" about names, even with the best intentions. How would your daughter feel if she learnt that you had a name picked out for her with love and care, but in the end wanted her to have a very uncommon name above all? I guess you can never predict, but if she ended up disliking her name, the salt in the wound would be knowing that she "should" have been named something else (especially if she wished for an 'easier', more familiar name; I can tell you I hated growing up with an uncommon name). Good luck, though, whatever you decide (and with the rest of the pregnancy and the birth!).
P.S. I hope I haven't been too harsh; you know best, of course, and I don't doubt you're trying to do the best thing by your daughter. Just my perspective.
P.S. to Vivian's mon again - I noticed after writing my 'essay' above that you wondered whether having a popular name was so bad. I wrote a couple of weeks ago in the comments here about my name change (so skip it if you've heard it). Growing up, I was always the only one with my name. I was the primary association with that name for most people I knew. When I finished university, I changed it to Lucy - a name which is widespread, but not extremely common, among my age group here in England (it's much commoner on kids, but I don't mix much with children and it doesn't bother me). I find this the happy medium. My name allows me a degree of anonymity - I'm not *the* Lucy of all Lucys - and is familiar to everyone and generally well-liked. I never have to spell it out or correct pronunciation. Nobody gives me odd looks and asks me to repeat myself. I love that, and I love my name. Additionally, it was no. 24 the year I was born, and yet I met very few Lucys growing up and there are no other Lucys in my circle of friends. Just luck, I guess. And I was born into a place and time that was probably much more conventional in terms of naming than the U.S. in 2008. I imagine there are proportionately fewer baby girls with a no. 24 name in America today, than there were in 1980s Britain. But you never know; you could name her Ethel-Mae and then find that by concidence or mysterious forces of zeitgeist there is another one in her class. If that destroys the name for you, perhaps it's not the right name (if Ethel-Mae can ever be said to be the right name! :) ).
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