The Baby Name Wizard

A bit off topic but what do you think? Am I overreacting?

My husband's cousin named his son after my husband and we were planning on using his name for our first son. My husband still wants to use the name and now I don't. I'm a bit upset that they didn't ask if we were planning on using the name. I know we don't "own" the name and I know they did it with love but it makes me sad because i feel we can't use the name now. I feel a little possessive about the names I have chosen so it's hard for me to determine if I am just overreacting? (what my husband thinks)

I know if I tried to use it as a middle name or a non-used first it still wouldn't work. My MIL loves the name so that would be the name used. It's not an uncommon name but no one else in the family has the name. What do you think?

So it's your husband's cousin's son who has the beloved name? That's your kid's second cousin (at best)--so, not too close on the family tree. A few questions: how often do you see them? Will the boys have different middle/last initials? How close will the boys be in age? What are the nickname possibilities?

For me: I'd be fine to use the name--but I don't live near any family; and if it bothered the kid, I'd go with a nickname (of his choosing). My kids have three cousins named Matthew, various ages, three different states, and we just keep them straight by context. (Also, I think boys mind less about having a name in common with their peers, in general.)

"But you never know; you could name her Ethel-Mae and then find that by concidence or mysterious forces of zeitgeist there is another one in her class."

Absolutely true--it happens sometimes. No name is completely immune (even a madeup one--there are only so many letter combinations, and there's nothing says another mom wouldn't make the same "original" decision and somehow land in your school district).

But with Vivian, you'd at least have the conversation starter--"So, you're the other mom who chose the same name as Angelina did in 2008!" Share the chagrin--by the time your daughter gets to school, it'll be something you can laugh about, I guarantee! Once you know your kid in person for five years, the idea that they need a unique name to be unique is firmly put to rest.

Vivian's Mom?

I'd go for it. Vivian (any spelling) is a lovely name, regardless of J-Ps. I for one, will lose track of the J-P names until they name another. (I had long since lost track of Mia Farrow's kids).

In the meantime, my son's name was 87 his year on the charts. We have lived in 3 places since he was born (and he just turned 3). On all the playgrounds, I have met exactly 2 other Tims near his age. (And one not in the state we live in now). Even if Vivian zooms up the charts, there still won't be *that* many of them.

To me, it is a great name, highly recognizable and yet distinct/unusual. Perfect.

Vivan's Mom, I'm going to back up everyone encouraging you to go for it. You love this name, your husband loves this name, it's beautiful, and I think your daughter will love it, too. Don't give it up *only* because of the Jolie-Pitts. Is it possible some of your distress is due to the situation?--I've not yet been pregnant, but I have to imagine that in the weeks before giving birth I'd be ready to have a panic attack over anything! Not that your reaction isn't completely understandable.

As a personal aside, I have a great fondness for the name, as my husband's favorite aunt is named Vivian. She's an incredible woman--a mom to two teenage girls, a successful business owner and entrepreneur, a two-time cancer survivor who last year ran the New York Marathon, and just an all-around fun, wonderful, dazzling person. If names play any part in shaping our characters, then you should definitely choose it, as my Vivian is a true model for any girl.

"But you never know; you could name her Ethel-Mae and then find that by concidence or mysterious forces of zeitgeist there is another one in her class."

Or you could wake up one morning, three years hence, to find that Miley Cyrus just had twin girls and named them Ethel-Mae and Mae-Ethel. Crikey knows I never expected ungainly ol' Knox to be a celeb name.

I say you name your child a name that speaks to you, and who cares what anyone else thinks or does -- especially a celeb who will likely be forgotten in a decade or so.

On the bright side, based on past tabloid Brangelina headlines, I know I can look forward to years of funny headlines I can clip and put on the fridge, from

"Where's Mommy?" asks neglected Knox
to
Knox has a drug problem, say worried friends
to
"My mother never loved me" admits tearful Knox in rehab

To Vivian's mom, and to Easternbetty's point about Vivian's possible rise--I think that if Vivian is the name you love, you should use it. I agree with Easternbetty that it may be more likely to increase in popularity than the other J-P names--BUT, for the very reason it is more likely to rise, I think it is *less* likely to be a time/celebrity-stamped name. Think if the name you had so lovingly picked our for your new baby was Knox, or Shiloh, etc., but the J-Ps got there first, by a few weeks, months, or years--the ONLY place where most people will have heard these names is from Brangelina, and so it would be fairly natural for them to say, "Oh, like Brangelina's baby." In fact, I think you might have a hard time convincing many people that the baby *wasn't* named in some sort of reference to the J-P kid, no matter what you say. How infuriating. But Vivian (which isn't even the same spelling OR pronunciation as Ms. J-P) is a familiar, classic name. Given that, I think it's a lot LESS likely that *most* people will even remember any association with Brangelina when they hear it in a couple *weeks*, much less a few years down the road. I do believe that it's a name likely to rise in the charts on its own merits, but like some others, I doubt that rise will be meteoric. And as someone whose name was in the 40s to 50s popularity rankings when I was born, and having met *very* few people who share my name in real life--maybe 4-5 people total who I have interacted with in even a peripheral way in my entire life--I think that even if Vivian jumps from the 200s to 100, or even 30-50, you *still* won't regret it. But what are the chances, really, that that jump will happen in the next 2-5 years, if it happens at all? Pretty darn slim, I'd say--so your Vivian, if anything, would be ahead of the trend, and shouldn't have to worry too much about meeting a bunch of girls with her name throughout her school years, at least.

It took me awhile in the naming process to come around to this position, but I really do think that national popularity rankings should be pretty low on one's priority list when picking baby names, especially assuming we aren't talking about names that are *already* date stamped and/or incredibly trendy. I think what you love should be the first and by far strongest consideration, followed maybe by local popularity levels (what names you see your peer group picking). The national ratings would not give me a clue that if I named my kid Astrid (not ranked), Milo (548), Bronwen (not ranked), Calla (not ranked), Blue (not ranked), Christine (518), etc., she would be the second or THIRD such child in my little neighborhood. So say I picked out Astrid, not because I totally love love loved it, but because I thought it was pretty cool, and there was *no way* she'd ever be Astrid S.--only to find out that she would indeed be Astrid S., to distinguish her from Astrid L. and Astrid J. (and any Astrids that may be born here next month). How mad would I be? I'd feel like a jerk, that's for sure, as the other oh-so-original Astrids' parents and I sat at parent/teacher night, sneaking nasty looks at each other from across the room. On the other hand, if we used the name we were in love with, there would be no real disappointment in running into another kid or two with that name on occasion, or even frequently. Because you didn't pick it to be different. You picked it because it's beautiful and right for your daughter and your family. And if someone else saw the light and came to the same conclusion? Well, they must just have good taste. :)

Vivian's Mom...

By all means name your daughter the name you love! Though you might get comments initially, those around you will soon associate the name with your lovely little girl.

One of my children has a name ranked in the 50s and the other has a name ranked in the 700s. The first name is perhaps "too popular," and around the time I used the rarer name, I heard that two other families in our extended circle of acquaintances used the same name in the previous year. For whatever reason, the rare name we chose has captured the heart of a subsection of the people we know...and I had the name picked out well before these people used it. So, it is also "too popular" despite the number ranking.

But, while I was well aware of the popularity and possible trends associated with each of the names we chose, this did NOT affect our decision. Ultimately DH and I chose the names that a) we could agree on (a task indeed!) and b)the names WE wanted OUR children to have...regardless of what other people wanted to name their children. Do I mentally tally up the kids I know with the same names as mine? YES!! (I am a NE after all.) However, I would name those names again in a heartbeat. We chose them for reasons that far outweigh popularity, and we will share those reasons with them in due time.

Incidentally, I have a name that is mildly date-stamped to a generation BEFORE me (baby boomers). The date-stamping has made me, on paper, look "older" than my generation, but this has never bothered me, since my name is a classic name that has been handed down for generations in my family. I know my name was chosen with care, regardless of past and passing trends. I suspect that a girl named the lovely and classic Vivian will feel the same if she knows your reasons for giving her that name.

I'm totally naming my imaginary twins Ethel-Mae and Mae-Ethel. Miley's such a copycat.

Some other X names

Lynx....I think I really like this one
Blix...met someone who used this recently. They say it is Scandinavian

Vivian's mom: Go for it. You can't lose. You love the name, and your daughter will always know that, and that will be a joy to her for her whole life. If the name does happen to tick up in popularity (and I think it will - it is a very good name), then your daughter can also relish your good taste.

My daughter is Amelia. One of the things that I like about the name is that while we don't know very many others, we know that the name is date-stamped to the early 2000's. She will always have a name that "fits" with the other Olivia's and Sarah's and Anna's, and that element of fitting in might be good for her, when she is a middle school kid, and figures out for herself what freaks her parents are. ("No cable, totally unathletic, and they can't even name a single musician from this century! At least they gave me a normal name!")

I'm about to out myself as a major Harry Potter dork....but there is a very slight Harry Potter connection with little Knox Leon. Nox is the incantation used in the HP books to turn the wand light (lumos) off.....that being said, Nox was not my first impression of little Knox Jolie-Pitt. I first thought Fort Knox. It took about a day for me to make the HP connection.

Soon to be Vivian's Mom--I say go for Vivian. It's a lovely name, and although your little Vivian may meet one or two other Vivian's, I seriously doubt it will attain the popularity of Jennifer in the 70's! I named my son Grady in 2006, when it was ranked 474. It rose 133 places in 2007 to 341. I still haven't met another child Grady (only little old men!), but I just know it's the right name for him :)

Wasn't Hans Blix the weapons inspector in Iraq when that all kicked off? The name makes me think of angry newspaper headlines about WMDs in the Independent...

Lynx is the name of a very popular deodorant brand in the UK - I believe it's called Axe everywhere else in the world.

I'm still laughing about Miley Cyrus' hypothetical twins...

To Vivian's Mom: I say use the name. When I was born, I was supposed to be named Samantha, a name both my parents loved. However, my grandmother threw a fit that I was not going to be named for her (Greek custom) and actually threatened to disown my mother if I wasn't given a name that was at least a derivation of her very long, rare Greek name. My mother chose the variation that she thought would be the easiest for me to live with (Fina). Unfortunately, I hated it from birth and my mother told me early on that I was going to be named Samantha, which made the circumstances even worse. I longed for this other name that everyone seemed to like. Unique isn't always a good thing, especially when it makes a kid that would rather blend in stick out like a sore thumb. My naming philosophy is, go with what you love, the name that makes you happy. If you do that, you won't have any regrets.

In defense of 'Ethel', my grandmother's name:

Oxford Dictionary of First Names: Ethel - 19th-century revival of an Old English name, a short form of various female personal names containing ethel "noble" as a first element...

Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names: Ethel - ...there was a correspondence in "Notes & Queries" in 1872 about 'Ethel,' which was then very fashionable. Several correspondents imputed its origin to Thackeray in "The Newcomes" (1853-5); others traced it to C.M. Yonge's "The Daisy Chain" (1856), in which the heroine is called 'Ethel'... No doubt it was the popularity of these almost contemporaneous novels which caused the spread of the name.

Another name dictionary adds that "by the 1870s 'Ethel' had become highly fashionable in all English-speaking countries, and remained so until the early 1930s..."

Ethel was already very popular in the United States in 1880 (#38) when SSA data begins, and was in the top 100 names through 1939 -- quite a long run. Ethel is still in the top 1000 names and rose from #953 in 2006 to #896 in 2007.

When my great-grandmother named her first daughter Ethel Maud in 1895 the name was very popular, ranking #7 the previous year and #8 that year.

I don't expect a revival of Ethel anytime soon, but it's certainly not the worst name ever, and in it's time was considered quite fashionable.

Patricia - when I used the example of Ethel-Mae, I was just trying to give an example, off the top of my head, of something completely unexpected and currently unpopular, that one might reasonably expect not to find in a 2015 classroom. I even added the -Mae on to make it more specific and thus implausible. Ethel's no favourite of mine, and unlike many old-fashioned names I struggle to see what the appeal ever was, but no disrespect was meant. I realise that parents in the 1890s weren't thinking "What's the frumpiest name we could give our precious baby girl?"! (But you've got to laugh at Brooklyn Babe's image of Miley Cyrus cradling her little baby girls Ethel-Mae and Mae-Ethel!)

Interesting information though; I love learning about how trends start. And I'm really surprised it's still in the top 1000 - well, I hope they wear it with pride!

Vivian's mom -- I would use the name...and I won't use names in the top 100 due to growing up as "Wendy C.". The chances that there will be another Vivian or Vivienne in her grade are slim. You love the name. Forget Bradgelina!

HYZ - no apology is necessary. Thanks for your comments...

I checked SSA data for any other 1895 top names ending in -el and how they've fared:
Ethel - 8 in 1895; 896 in 2007
Mabel - 20 in 1895; 946 in 2007
Hazel - 22 in 1895; 361 in 2007

For me, there's not much to choose between them -- they all sound very dated. So I was surprised when Julia Roberts named one of her twins Hazel. Hazel was out of the top 1000 for many years, returning in 1998 at #940.

In 1904 my grandmother Ethel was blessed with a little sister, Mabel. And I can see now why their mother (Blanche Edith) chose these sibling names Ethel Maud (EM) and Mabel Edith (ME), two fashionable names for her daughters.

Lucie la Morena, no offense taken. I have never liked the name Ethel myself, but when I learned more about the name, I could appreciate it more, *in its time frame*.

There's a name that *I* see similarly that's all the rage now - Ella. It's all a matter of associations. I knew an older, frumpy, befuddled woman, a farmer's daughter -- many years ago -- whose name was Ella Mae. She was always called by both names. When I hear "Ella" I think of Ella Mae (and then Ellie Mae from "The Beverly Hillbillies").

I can't think of many Ethels of note... But Ethel Barrymore and Ethel Kennedy certainly wore/are wearing the name with pride.

Now, Blanche and Edith I quite like (and Edith's on the rise, too). I have no doubt that in 100 years time some of the trendiest names of today will be almost universally disliked; I guess the trendiest names age hardest. Though fair play to Ethel, it was popular for a long time. I wonder if/when it will come back? Hazel, though, seems to have had a completely different journey in Britain. The three Hazels of my aquaintance vary from middle-aged to 20 years old. I didn't bat an eyelid at Julia Robert's Hazel and it's a name I'm very fond of myself. It's strange for me to think that for many people it's a natural sister to Mabel and Ethel! Also, I gather Lucy is considered an old-fashioned name by (some) Americans...

Melanie -- I pronounce Adelia uh-DEEL-ee-uh.

Megan W -- The only Evelyn I've ever known (nn Nani) is Hispanic and in her mid-20s.

Vivian's Mom? -- Please use Vivian. It's a lovely name and while it will probably become more popular, unless you're already in some Vivian-vortex, your daughter will probably not be overwhelmed by other Vivians. Most importantly, it's a name you and your husband chose with care and love. This truly is your first, best gift to her. Don't let the J-Ps or a possible rise in popularity put you off.

I grew up with a popular name. It had its drawbacks and its advantages. At times I didn't like it at all, but as time passed, I grew to really love it largely because it was chosen for *me* specifically. Even if Vivian becomes a top-10 name, which I doubt will happen (at least not overnight!), your Vivian may still *adore* her name because you chose it for her.

My daugther has a currently unpopular name. That, too, has its advantages and disadvantages. Sometimes she likes it and sometimes she doesn't. But it was also a name chosen with care and bestowed on her with love. On balance, that's more important to me than where it is on the charts or if a celeb should happen to choose it.

Best of luck and let us know what you decide!

Just saw a news item that Knox Leon was almost named Rex.

Viv's mom--I say go for Vivian. For all the reasons others have said to go for it. Shoot, I named my daughter for her grandmother, having met exactly one other Iris in my life (my gma) and having made the decision to do so in 1992 (she was born in 2004). Now I know of 3 little Irises in my town. :shrug:

Plus Vivian is lively (especially as Viv) and on an adult I think its a sexy name.

re Blix: Hans Blix was a weapons inspector. But there is another Blix that I immediately thought of--the Baron Bror von Blixen, a Swedish settler in Kenya whose wife (or ex-wife) wrote Out of Africa. He was known as Blix. While I'm not sure that I would want to name my child after a colonial big-game hunter, given my own connections with Kenya, its sort of cool and tempting....

Anna--My husband's cousin named her son the name I'd always intended for a son (Gabriel). While it doesn't have the family connections your name has, I totally understand the angst involved. In my case, I think I'd use it but my husband thinks its tacky to do so (even though the whole family knew it had been the potential boy name when Iris was born). I still love it. I say go for it if the boys won't be around each other very much and the rest of the names will be different!

More distinguished Ethels: American reformer Ethel Sturges Dummer (1866-1954); English suffragist Ethel Snowden (1880-1951); English author Ethel Mannin (1900-1984).

The mom next door when I was growing up was Ethel--she was probably born in the US South in the early 1930s? A late Ethel. I think of it as a church lady name (like Enid and Edna).

Now, what I've always wondered is why Edna doesn't work for today's ears. It's not the "dn" in the middle--we seem to be okay with hearing Sydney (and, for the more adventurous, Ariadne). Our generation seems to like short girl names and E initials. But Edna, no thanks. Hmmm!

I admit to a fondness for Ethel, but it's forever tainted by the frumpy Ethel Mertz of "I Love Lucy" -- dang those perpetual reruns!

If y'all will indulge me on another Old English tangent -- Ethel was one of the Anglo-Saxon names revived around the Victorian era. Other examples are Arthur, Edgar, Edith, Edmund, Cuthbert, Egbert, Albert, Mildred, Wilfred... see a pattern of compounds here? Naturally, we see these names as stuffy and old-fashioned, because we associate them subconsciously with Victorianism and very old people. And these names were already ancient even then.

In any case, I'm not sure what sparked the 19th Century Arthurian/Anglo-Saxon revival, but these names were the rage for quite some time. I kind of like a lot of them, but I would draw the line at naming my kid, say, after King Aethelwold... not because I don't like the name, but because, realistically, it'd be far too much of a burden for any child to bear. I always sort of hope I'll meet someone who bears one of those weird 1500-year-old names, but I never have.

Angelina, are you reading this? Here's your chance to score a name that's really unusual, and authentic at the same time.

Re: Edna, perhaps it's the -na ending? Names like Lorna, Myrna, Rhona are all past their peak at the moment. It's all about soft -la endings today. And it could be that the consonant before it does make it less appealing to a lot of parents. Either that, or it's just not the right time yet - Enid doesn't look to be making a comeback any time soon, either (does it?).

Funny, I like Ethel. Not as much as Hazel (love) and Mabel (very sweet), but I like it. The biggest "turn off" for me is that it makes me think of ethyl alcohol, not a particularly poetic image. But I *love* that soft, lispy -th sound (also helps explain my fondness for Timothy, Hyacinth, Meredith, Dorothy, Theodore, Anthea, Beth, Thora, etc.), the ancient history of the name, and the fact that it sounds strong, solid, and trustworthy despite the -th softness.

I could *almost* really like Edith, but it's too Archie Bunker for me, plus I don't like that long E as much as a softer vowel. Ardith, maybe?

Just because I have very little to do today while I wait for someone to come and fix the boiler, I thought I'd post this excerpt from "Lark Rise" by Flora Thompson, a charming book about hamlet life in 1880s Oxfordshire, about names. It kind of relates to the "old lady names" discussion.

"Baptismal names were such as the children's parents and grandparents had borne. The fashion in Christian names was changing; babies were being christened Mabel and Gladys and Doreen and Percy and Stanley; but the change was too recent to have affected the names of the older children. Mary Ann, Sarah Ann, Eliza, Martha, Annie, Jane, Amy and Rose were favourite girls' names. There was a Mary Ann in almost every family, and Eliza was nearly as popular. But none of them were called by their proper names. Mary Ann and Sarah Ann were contracted to Mar'ann and Sar'ann. Mary... had, by stages, descended through Molly and Polly to Poll. Eliza had become Liza, then Tiza, then Tize. Martha was Mat or Pat; Jane was Jin; and every Amy had one "Aim" in life of which she had constant reminder"

Later she talks about the sweeping social changes of the 1890s:

"The last of the bustles disappeared... The new Rector's wife took her Mothers' Meeting group for a trip to London. Babies were christened new names; Wanda was one, Gwendolin another."

In a sequel, she mentions the local vicar's well-to-do daughters named Olivia and Elaine. There are also two sisters, Ruth and Prudence, who change their names to Ruby and Pearl to give their fashion boutique extra credibility.

Hope someone out there finds the naming lanscape of rural late-Victorian England interesting; and I apologise for taking up so much comment space this morning!

Anna -- I think since it's your husband's name we're talking about here, you should feel free to give it to your son even though he will have a cousin (of one remove or another) who shares it. I would feel differently if it were just some random name you both liked or if it were the other dad's name, but your husband certainly is entitled to use his own name for his son, if he chooses.

Vivan (any sp) is a lovely name. I think of Vivian Leigh. Am I right? Anyway, I agree with other posters that you may dislike the fact of it being a bit popular if it rises, but you will DEFINITELY regret not choosing it if you don't. However, I had names picked out for my kids before I got pg. I decided they weren't right for them after giving birth. I am happy with my choices for the most part because they just "didn't look" like Zachary or Samantha. Funny enough, I was finally able to take a look at Laura's book in the store the other day. Zachary's sister is supposed to be Samantha so I would have had the perfect sibset.

On the increasing popularity of names, my name was #313 the year I was born it peaked a few years later around #200. Growing up I knew of no others until I got to Jr. High then met 1. It was the only other until college then 6 of us in same lit class. That was not fun! (But humorous in its own little way). Then as adult now I know no one. But do occasionally come across it in other settings like receptionists, waitresses, etc. That doesn't matter to me because I don't really KNOW them.

I forgot to comment on the original blog entry. X names are by far more stylish to me than the "o" names.
Lennox, Lynx, Brax(chopped Braxton),Jax(chopped Jaxon),etc. sound fresh to me and creative and a bit off-beat/unusual. Something that parents might pick these days.
The Colfax, and Calix thoughts are weird to me. Although Calyx, and Onyx also sound fresh for girls.
The "o" sound names just don't do it for me. Shiloh is pretty but I don't care for Jethro, Jericho, Refrow, Marlow, Harlow or any of the others.

Anna-- are you having a boy anytime soon?

If not, I would wait until the arrival of your son is upon you to decide on what to name him. You might find out that the cousin wants you to use the name, you might decide that there is another name you love, you or the cousin could move to some far away place thus avoiding the complications of being in the same place at the same time, your husband might have second thoughts on what his son name could be.

**oops should typed Renfrow

Brooklyn Babe--

First of all, Arthur is not an Anglo-Saxon name. Germanic names were bithematic, so, yes, the Anglo-Saxon names you cite are all compounds, and so are all the ones you didn't cite. (The relatively few monothematic names are believed to be developed from some sort of shortened forms or nicknames.)

In an earlier thread I mentioned a family I know of (dad is an Anglo-Saxonist by training, but not profession) where the kids are named Eadweard, Herebeorht, Raedwald, Emma, and Rowena. (Rowena was named with the assistance of the entire Ansaxnet listserv.) The year (1975) I received my PhD (in Old English, Middle English, and Old Icelandic), the commencement guests were the heads of all the English-speaking universities extant in 1775. Representing Oxford (I think Oxford and not Cambridge) was a man named John Hrothgar Habbakuk. Amazing name! And there is Eadweard Muybridge, the photographer.

As for 19th century medievalism, there has been a substantial amount of ink spilled on this topic. One place to start is The Return to Camelot: Chivalry and the English Gentleman by Mark Girouard. I myself have published a fair bit on medievalism, but twentieth century, not nineteenth.

My son's name Edward has been in continuous use since the Anglo-Saxon period, no doubt helped along by the fact that it was a dynastic name in the post-Conquest, as well as the pre-Conquest, English monarchy. I chose that name because it was my father's, not because it was Anglo-Saxon, but the fact that it is both Anglo-Saxon and the name of my dissertation adviser for whom I had the greatest respect and fondness was lagniappe.

Lucie la Morena- thank for the quotes. I remember that book fondly, even though we were forced to read it at school! I was interested that Martha became Mat or Pat. I hadn't remembered that.

BrooklynBabe- I'm intrigued by the Victorian revival of Old English names too. I think that would explain my grandmother being named Hilda. Don't really like most of them, although Arthur is growing on me. Would you include Walter and Harold too? How about Cyril?
To me the revival echoes the fascination with the medieval period that you see in Pre-Raphaelite paintings and poems like "The Lady of Shalott".

Lucie, thanks for that digression. I'm a Victorianist, and a discussion of names and Victoriana is about as perfect as I could wish.

I cannot wrap my mind around liking Ethel. Hazel and Mabel, no question. I very much like Edith, as well (we're considering it for a future daughter--it was my husband's grandmother's name). But Ethel is just not doing it for me. I think its the combination of the "th" and the "l" in such close succession, broken only by the almost closed-mouth, back of the tongue articulation of the "eh" sound. Something like Uthalia (You-Thah-Lee-uh) has a better distribution of open vowel sounds around the "th" and "l" and sounds better, I think. Oh, and I just made that name up and think it's rather awful. I'm just putting there in contrast to show why I don't think the sounds in Ethel "work" for contemporary ears.

Walter and Harold/Harald are Germanic names. Walter was supposedly a hero of the fifth century Visigoths whose story was told in Latin heroic verse by Ekkehard of St. Gall, a tenth Frankish monk. Harald was a popular name in Viking-age Norway, borne by a number of kings (Harald Battletooth, Harald Fairhair, etc.). The last Anglo-Saxon king of England, Harold Godwinson, defeated the last of the great sea-raiding Norwegians, King Harald Hardrada, just a few days before the battle of Hastings.

Cyril, however, is a Greek name, derived from the root for 'lord.'

Wow! This is so much fun to read. Thanks everyone!

Miriam --

Thanks so much for the clarification and further background on the Anglo-Saxon names. I suppose, yes, Arthur must be an Arthurian name; correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Gwendolyn also a product of the Arthurian revival?

I'm bitterly jealous that your father is an Anglo-Saxonist; I had no idea there was such a specialty! I suppose that's what you'd call someone like JRR Tolkein as well?

I'm also bitterly jealous that you received your PhD in Old English, Middle English, and Old Icelandic. (Where do they even offer such a degree?) And I'm extra-bitterly jealous that you knew a family named Eadweard, Herebeorht, Raedwald, Emma, and Rowena.

Eadweard was on my very short list of names for little Knox; it was rejected on the following grounds:
1. Clarifying spelling would be a lifelong struggle with everyone he encountered
2. Putting "weard" into a name is a little too tempting for those inclined to mock (even though, and correct me if I'm wrong again, "-weard" and "weird" are not etymologically related).

Was "Herebeorht" pronounced "Herbert," more or less? And if so, did young "Hereb" finally throw in the towel and allow everyone to just spell it "Herbert," rather than engage in a lengthy spelling lesson each time he had to give his name to someone?

I'm interested, because my childbearing career may not be over, and "Eadweard" is still in the running for a middle name. And while I'm conversing with an OE/ME/OI expert: Is it properly pronounced "Edward"?

Thanks, Miriam!

JRR Tolkien. Preview is my friend; must remember that.

I think it's possible that Lillian, Evelyn, & Vivian will become the next Isabella, Sophia, & Ava. But, I don't think that's a negative. They are all lovely names. Marian might slip through unnoticed though.

Regarding Knox...I can see it gaining popularity. To my ear, it has a country/western sound. Maybe it's the KY & TN connection.

Brooklyn Babe--

My father was a lawyer. I am an Anglo-Saxonist, retired after a lot of years of teaching Old and Middle English language and literature (and tech writing).

You can get a PhD in Old and Middle English (and in some cases Old Icelandic) in just about any major research university in the English-speaking world, and also in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Italy, possibly elsewhere. I am currently living in Tempe, where Arizona State specializes in medieval studies--good place to get a PhD in Old and Middle English. Probably the best place for this in North America is the University of Toronto. Notre Dame is also outstanding.

Be forewarned. Any field in medieval studies is language intensive. A native speaker of English would need at least a good reading knowledge of Latin, French, and German at a minimum, plus thorough knowledge of relevant medieval languages. I learned Old English, Middle English, Old Icelandic, Old High German, Middle High German, Old Saxon, Middle Dutch, some Gothic. I can also read Modern Dutch. Other specialties would require a whole raft of other languages. In addition I had formal training in Germanic philology and to a limited extent Indo-European philology (Philology is considered old-fashioned and few places teach it anymore, but I think it is indispensable.) In short, 'tain't easy. I was able to read English, French, German, Latin, and Hebrew before I graduated high school. Otherwise I would have found grad school a mighty tough row to hoe. It was pretty tough as it was.

Yes, Professor Tolkien was the greatest of twentieth century Anglo-Saxonists.

The ea and eo in Eadweard and Herebeorht are diphthongs and pronounced as such. The h in -beorht is pronounced like the -ch in Bach. (Young Herebeorht is indeed called Hereb for short. Don't know how you knew that!)

-weard/ward means guard. Ward and guard are cognates, one English, one French. Weird is derived from the Old English wyrd 'fate' as in the three 'weird' sisters in Macbeth--the three fates.

BTW the derivation of Arthur is vexed. Some think it is derived from Latin Artorius (as Emrys is derived from Ambrosius), and others think it is Celtic.

Miriam --

Sorry, I misread -- you clearly meant that Heorbeorht and Eadweard's father was an Anglo-Saxonist, not yours. So one less thing to be jealous of.

Fascinating info about the study of OE and Anglo-Saxonism, thanks so much! I hadn't realized it was available at so many American schools; nor had I realized that it required so much foreknowledge going in. I'm awed.

On this topic, it's interesting that there doesn't seem to have been an Anglo-Saxon revival since the Victorian era. One might have thought the Sutton Hoo archaeological discoveries in the 30s would have set one off, but perhaps the war took the sheen off British cultural pride, or the Victorian revival was still too recent.

I half-expected a mild resurgence in interest as a result of the popular Heaney translation of Beowulf, or the movie treatment, but no. I suppose the culture and language are harsh and off-putting to most. It's just intriguing that, in this age of microcultures and interest in "ethnic" names, that Anglo-Saxon is one ethnicity that's seemingly been passed over. I noticed a surge in Welsh and pseudo-Welsh names about 15 years ago, and of course Irish and pseudo-Irish names are still hot (and I consider all the "-aden" names ultimately pseudo-Irish because I assume they are derived from Aidan), but no corresponding surge for AS names.

Could this be because ethnic Anglo-Saxons were ultimately such an influence on the modern world that it's not considered an "ethnicity" at all, but sort of the "default" ethnicity? Is it because of some kind of cultural shame or repudiation? Or is it just because there's nothing particularly warm 'n' fuzzy about the Anglo-Saxon culture or language?

Would be interested in your take, if this is a topic you've studied.

In the meantime, I'm still waiting for the Great Scottish Name Revival. Trendsetters, grab Angus now before it gets hot!

I was saddened when my university abolished its (tiny) philology program. And even further depressed when it got rid of my beloved Comp Lit program a few years later!

Thanks, as always, for the education, Miriam. I love this blog partially because I learn so much about many different fields.

Sister Melinda --

"I'm totally naming my imaginary twins Ethel-Mae and Mae-Ethel. Miley's such a copycat."

This is actually what I've been saying to people when they comment about what a "trendsetting" name my boy Knox has: "Well, you know, Angelina's always been a bit jealous of me. How many times have I told her, 'Angelina, you're attractive too, in your own way; you don't have to always copy me! Do your own thing!' But you know, she's still following in my footsteps, poor dear..."

"I love this blog partially because I learn so much about many different fields."

ITA, Elizabeth T. Thanks, as always, Miriam. Fascinating stuff! Now if I just knew how a diphthong was pronounced ...

jb: Good call. I agree with you that Lillian, Evelyn, & Vivian may become the next Isabella, Sophia, & Ava. I also agree that they are all lovely!

Attended a pool party today with 8 girls under the age of five. Check out the names:

Ava
Livvie (Olivia)
Evie (pronounced ee-vee)
Avery (my daughter)
Genevieve (usually called Genny)
Ella
Lilly
Sarah

Lots of V's and L's. And it reminded me that V-heavy Genevieve may also get a big boost in the coming years as well.

oh, and Evie is not short for anything. Her given name is Evie.

Valerie W.-- I love "Parks". I'm wondering if it was you, quite a while back, who mentioned a son Parks, or do we have two little boys of that name? I have grown so fond of names ending in --s. Giles, Brooks, Baines, etc. Not as fashionable as "x", which is an asset. They satisfy the stuffier side of my naming inclinations, having such a proper, "butlerian" ring.

Miriam, could I impose on you with a specific question? Recently, I stumbled on the fact that my name is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning something like "zeal", (how appropriate!) or, less likely, something like "courage". It seems highly unlikely to me that a word like that would have been used as a woman's name-- it would just be a descriptive word, right?

I was surprised to come across it, as I already knew my name, again exact spelling, is also a word in Manx Gaelic, entirely different meaning, of course.

More broadly, I would love to know if there are many identical words or names that span two or more disparate languages? At least I assume Anglo-Saxon and Manx Gaelic are disparate!