The Baby Name Wizard

re the Ethel-Mae phenomenon: I second (or third?) this! As I have probably mentioned before, my DD Mamie shares her name with the daughter of a high school classmate of mine. Mamie is not in the top 1000. My only comfort is that MY Mamie is a year older than HIS Mamie ;).

Stripper names: I'm going with Nevaeh.

I have found a new source for fascinating baby names. A Christian mothers' magazine I get often features very large families. For example, one family of 9: Zadok, Sharah, Rashida, Crusoe, Jireh, Arrow, Tiveria, Sahara and Iqara. Wow.

This leads me to my next question: if you are planning to homeschool your children, can you be more free with your naming choices? It seems this would widen your choices on either end of the spectrum: less need to worry about picking a too-popular name as they will still be the only Emma in their "class" AND less need to worry about a too-unusual name as they will be at least somewhat insulated from classmate/playground taunting.

Stripper names: Jada and Jasmine

K - Philo is one of my favorite names (ever since I read The Return of Philo T. McGiffin). Shhh!

Jill C: where did you get that magazine? My mom used to get it (there is only one family in America/Down Under that has the first 5 of those kids..) I have been trying to find it. Can you help me?
As I remember there are a lot of other interesting names in there too. ^^Those kids aunt has some very unique names.

"Wow, Sarah. So there really is no guarantee your little Ethel-Mae won't be sharing a classroom with another. I wonder if there is a single name which can be guaranteed!"

You just know there's someone named Herebeorht reading this thread right now and cursing his parents for giving him a name common enough to be discussed on a message board.

And sweating bullets, praying that no celebs are reading this.

On the topic of "Albion" and related "This Is Where I'm From" names: I've always been taken with the name Europa, ever since I heard the song "Europa and the Pirate Twins" by Thomas Dolby. I've never actually heard of anyone with that name, though, which is a little surprising. You'd think that with the advent of the EU and the Euro, it would have suggested itself. It seems like an optimistic "unity" name to me. Has anyone spotted this name in real life?

Jessica, it's Above Rubies (aboverubies.org). You're right -- I believe the mother of that family is Evangeline, who has siblings Wesley, Stephen, Rocklyn, Pearl, and Serene, plus 4 adopted children: John, Psalmody, Sapphire and Mercy. Other cousins include Meadow, Chanel, Noble, Cherish, Cedar, Vision, and Shepherd. Just...fascinating.

I was going to say that Arrow would be another to add to Laura's 'o' list in the original post, but she already included it!

"BrooklynBabe, I wonder from your comments if you're in Park Slope. I just moved here (and don't have children yet, but am planning to in the next few years), so I hope you are, and I can get your take on the neighborhood before I take that plunge. (No pressure to divulge your whereabouts, of course)."

zOMG, busted! What gave it away?

I'd be happy to chat about the Slope, but I think it would bore the bejayzus out of the folks here (though it is a major hotbed of both childbearing and name trends; a tour of nursery-school locker name stickers could be a wonderful expedition for any name aficionado). I recommend brooklynian.com and brownstoner.com for general pulse-taking. Beyond that, I don't want to give out any specific info here. How do folks get in touch w/each other in the absence of private messaging?

It was the names that gave it away. I think you mentioned that you knew something like 3 little girls named Iris, and that just sounded like Park Slope to me.

Are Josephines and Simons a dime a dozen? Those are my husband's and my top choices for the future, unconceived firstborn.

Huh. Wasn't me that mentioned Iris -- I don't know any Irises. Emmas and Isabellas, now those I know. I have never seen or known a Josephine or a Simon under the age of 30.

Then again, remember the "Ethel-Mae Postulate": there is no name so forgotten, passed over, obscure or unfashionable that you can guarantee there will not be another one in your child's kindergarten class.

And the "Angelina Corollary": The more obscure a name, the more likely a celeb will seize on it and popularize it.

BrooklynBabe, As to your question of how to get in touch with Coll, I would just set up a free email account on Hotmail or Yahoo, give out the address here, and then not use the account any more after you have heard from whomever you wish to get in touch with.

Hmm, I cannot remember who mentioned Iris! But, something led me to believe you are in the Slope. Lost to the sands of time and the internet.

The discussion of Ethel-Mae kept tickling in my mind - where did I hear it before? Then it came to me..."Harvey"! Lots of grand names here.

Elwood P. Dowd's sister was Veta Louise and her daughter was, not Ethel-Mae, but Myrtle Mae.

There were a few others of note: Dr. Chumley's wife was Hazel and there was another women named Ethel. We didn't get to know the name of the pretty blonde nurse though - she was just Miss Kelly.

Re the Above Rubies lady's family names--

I may have mentioned that every week I read the New Orleans real estate transactions, mostly to see how the recovery is/isn't going and what my old friends and colleagues are doing with their properties. However, I also (obviously) check out the names. New Orleanians have some unusual naming habits compared to elsewhere in the US.

Anyhow, I recently came across a lady named Messiah (old enough to be married). I couldn't help wondering: is she nicknamed Messy? Could Messiah become the new Nevaeh? A name for a full-quiver family who chooses M, rather than J, for the familial initial? A possibility for Madonna's next child?

I was the one who mentioned Iris. I should point out that the ones I know are all younger than my daughter--but since she's only 3.5yrs, that isn't saying much!

btw, I'm not in NY.

"Remember the "Ethel-Mae Postulate": there is no name so forgotten, passed over, obscure or unfashionable that you can guarantee there will not be another one in your child's kindergarten class."

Jill C - do you know why your high school classmate picked Mamie, and was it along the same lines as your decision?

What were parents in 80s Maryland thinking that made Bronwyn top-of-the-chart, at least in my school? I read once (around the time I saw that honest-to-goodness Ethelmae in that yearbook) about regional popularity blips in names. The examples given were Kizzie in Florida and Una in Detroit. Can anyone verify that? And wasn't Landon the most popular boys' name in Louisiana last year? Can anyone explain where these and other regional blips come from? If we can answer this maybe we can crack the postulate!

Messiah? Hoo boy. I'm not particularly religious, but that one seems a little over the top, to put it lightly. Were her brothers called Second Coming and Savior of Mankind? Maybe mom and dad were hoping they'd hit the jackpot with one of the three, anyway? lol.

To me, this seems very different even from the kids named Jesus, Mohammed, etc.--at least those are names of individuals, people whom one might certainly want to honor and emulate. But Messiah? Just the noun? I can't see that.

Sarah--I think there is definitely some rhyme/reason as to why certain names have big popularity blips among certain groups, but sometimes it comes down to dumb luck, too. I also grew up in 1980s Maryland, and I had no fewer than 6 friends named Sarah in my high school class of about 200. Those weren't all the Sarahs in the class, mind you (I think there were about 10 total)--just the ones I was personally close to. I don't think we had any Bronwyns.

Sarah, I think his Mamie was named for a grandmother; my Mamie was named as a twist on my sister Amy's name (my DS called aunt Amy 'Mamie' before he could pronouce it properly). His familial claim to the name is arguably stronger, but I still had it first!

I agree with the sentiments about Messiah; shockingly, it has been in the top 1000 for boys since 2005. And it's rising...

Sarah:
I can't speak to the geographical blip, but, according to Cleveland Kent Evans (see his comments on this October post), "Kizzy, the female name popularized by 'Roots', was also on the SSA list for three years between 1977 and 1979."

Eo:
Yes, Jack London espoused some pretty racist ideas in his time and even authored an essay titled "The Yellow Peril." (And he was a member of the Socialist Party, which may not exactly be your cup of tea...)

"The Ethel-Mae Postulate":
There were two Oona's in my high school. And when I was in elementary school, there were two Maia's and one Maya in the grade below me -- three out of a class of 60, all born in a year when the first spelling didn't rank and the second was given to only 248 other American baby girls!

Hi.
I would love the input of others who are thinking about names. My husband and I are looking for a girls name that we could use to name after his grandmother, Delores (if we have a girl, which we're not going to find out). The only one we have come up with is Delilah, which we kind of like but we're afraid it's just not us --it seems a bit too much of a mouthful and a bit too "out there" for us to feel comfortable with (although I laughed to see it mentioned as the up-and-coming name of the year). Our older daughter is named Natalie.

Any ideas? We like more traditional names in general, but open to all ideas.

Thanks for any input!
Sarah

For Delores you could consider Della, Delphine, Lori, or Delta (probably Delta sounds "out there" if you're not from the Deep South, though).

On the names Euro and Europa--I can say that there's a long-established Welsh name, "Euros," pronounced more like "Eros." (It has the same root as Spanish "oro" or Italian "auro"--meaning "gold".) Here's a rather funny BBC article about the old Welsh names that now sound like currency:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2978036.stm

I also see the female "Euroswen" in the little bit of dictionary they give.

Nicknames for Delores:
Lolita
Lola

Sound Matches:
Delia
Dahlia
Della
Delphine

Matches for Meaning "sorrows"
Maura, one meaning is "bitterness" (full disclosure: it's my sister's name, and I love it)
Deirdre (Sorrowful wanderer)
Larina (sorrowful)
Trista/Tristana/Triste

To add to the Delores list, I guess it depends on how far afield you want to go. You could do Delia, Dorothy/Dorothea (maybe nn. Doro or Dora), Adele, Lola, Laura, Lorna, Lourdes, etc. I would normally suggest some names with similar meaning to the namesake name, but I've never been able to get behind calling a child something that literally meant pains or sorrows. I believe the name itself is in reference to Mary, though, so you could go with that, or one of its many variations.

Vivians Mom:

I would check out some of the names in your community before deciding whether or not to go with the name Vivian. I personally don't see it becoming really big... but old fashioned is in. I have went to tons of play groups recently ( I have a 6 month old) and I have yet to run into an Emily yet its number one. Seem to meet alot of Zoe/Zoey, Emmas, Aidan/Aidans, Austins, and Ethans.

I actually know a girl named Saxon - she's about 15 and is a twin. Her brother is Sam.

Addendum- Of the names I listed, I think Natalie and Delia, Natalie and Delphine, and Natalie and Larina sounds prettiest together.

P.S. I realize that Mary (like Maura), is often translated as bitterness, or sea of bitterness--so not a pleasant meaning there, either, and of course the biblical Mary had her share of sorrows--but she's seen as such a positive figure by some people that her whole persona overcomes the negative sorrow association. Plus, the meaning there is a little more shrouded by the sands of time, whereas with my Spanish knowledge, the meaning of Dolores jumps out, plain as day.

Also, I've personally known two women named Dolores (various spellings, though), and the name really fits them each, in different ways. One had a hard life, but managed to overcome a lot until recently suffering the tragic and untimely loss of her beloved husband--hard times just never seem to end for her. The other is a rather unfortunate looking woman who is painfully shy and self-concious--it's a bit mean, but I can't help wondering if her name reflected her parents' attitude toward her, and somehow helped create the uncomfortable person she is today.

Sarah and hyz-count me among the Marylanders growing up in the 1980's. I knew two Bronwyns, one born in 72 and the other in 78. My class was flush with Jennifers though. There were 13 Jennifers in my graduating high school class of 260! My friend "one of the three Jenny B.'s" pointed that out to me. There were also a lot of Amys and Jessicas...tons of Michaels on the boys side!

As for Delores, my suggestions were Delia and Dorothy, but it looks like that was already suggested.

Oh, and earlier I had posted about Lillian Marie born today. Just heard from the new Grandma...a last minute change and her name is actually Lily Katherine.
:)

Eo,

I'm actually descended from Boadicea! When I was little, I thought it was the funniest, squattest (inspiring squats, I don't know why) name there was and was embarrassed to have such a name in my lineage. Now I realize how amazingly awesome it is to be able to trace my heritage to such an amazing woman - and furthermore, that if I so choose, I could spell and pronounce it Boudicca, which is far more mellifluous to my ear. Could anyone (Miriam, possibly) tell me which is thought to be the more correct version of the name?

Also, I was at my book club yesterday and met a new member who's a resident OB/GYN. Of course, I asked him what the most interesting baby names he's seen were, and I got fodder for what could be an amazing set of true urban legends. One mother liked the way a phrase on something plastic she owned looked, and wanted to name her daughter...wait for it....Madeinusa. Doesn't actually sound all that bad out loud, to tell you the truth. Madeline and Atoosa combined, I suppose. And another couple wanted to name their boy 401k, but the hospital wouldn't allow numerals. The doctor says he assumes they just spelled it out. I would have thought these were total urban legends (Lemonjello, anyone?), but this guy actually delivered these babies himself. Scary...

Thanks, HMF, I had a feeling that was the case. I also vaguely believed him to be some sort of "workers of the world, unite" type, circa 1913 or so...

Here in bucolic upstate New York we get a few anomalous names, but not that many. Yesterday, picking up Banks from swim class (seven and eight year olds), I heard one of his little classmates being called repeatedly-- "Oksana, Oksana"! It had this weird reverberation because of the water and the tiled walls all around!

Pretty. Wasn't there a gymnast by that name, or a skater? I'm thinking she might have been Ukrainian. And maybe it was about eight years ago she was widely known? But I thought there was some scandal or notoriety attached. Wish I had less of a scattershot memeory!

Katie, that is a fun and amazing link you have to the past! I think I like both spellings...

Eo, I think you're thinking of the Ukrainian figure skater Oksana Baiul. I've always liked that name. I think I've also seen it spelled Oxana, which would satisfy both aspects of the X & O roundup. If I heard it in the context you did (a location where international names are uncommon), I might wonder if she was an E. European adoptee. I've known several little Russian girls who were adopted at the age of 4-6, and their adoptive parents continued to use the Russian names the girls grew up with.

Katie--

These days the spelling/pronunciation Boudicca is the one more frequently found. And she was definitely a piece of work.

"but this guy actually delivered these babies himself"

Uh huh. And he sent the check just this morning. And the baby's diaper was fine when he last checked. And of course, you look fine in those jeans.

I think "crazy name stories" are a creative, even competitive outlet for hospital staff--not to be taken too much as gospel truth.

(Oh, and the ban on numbers isn't just an individual hospital's policy-- I don't think you can legally submit an American birth certificate with numerals (0-9) in the name)

Oksana Baiul, Olympic gold medalist in ice skating, was Ukranian, I think. I think she won in '92, and the scandal was a drunk driving arrest a few years later.

I think it's not an uncommon name in Russia, but know nothing about Ukranian as related to / compared to Russian.

I do know a small Saxon (2 years old), have a cousin Josephine (nn Josie, teenager), and think Genevieve (not my real name) could indeed be up-and-coming.

And Vivian's Mom(?), I'm with those suggesting that you keep the name. It's lovely enough not to be date-stamped - it's timeless. And there won't be tons of them right now. I don't know, but my guess is it won't go to top 10, maybe only as high as top 50, and could just get a jump into the top 100 and no higher. Can you picture the two scenarios -- Vivian in the top 10, and you using it ahead of the curve, versus Vivian only in the top 100, and you regretting not using it? Which leaves you feeling better? That would be the one to go with.

I'm sorry, but how can someone know they're descended from Boudicca, if NOBODY even knows the names of her husband or her daughters, or if she had sons? That sounds like a bit of wishful genealogical dot-connecting to me. You might, maybe, possibly be able to point to a connection to the Iceni tribe (although they were slaughtered by the thousands, or so the Romans wrote), but to Boudicca herself? Seriously unlikely.

A lot of dodgy genealogical works were assembled in the 19th century, and continue to be assembled today, to prove descent from all kinds of noted figures. But it only takes one madeup (or mistaken, to be charitable) link in that chain to render it fiction.

I didn't know Dolores meant sorrow. Does anyone know if that is a reason that Nabokov named his Lolita Dolores (on the dotted line)? I kind of love the name Lolita, but I would never name a child that, having read and studied and obsessed over the novel since college.

Sarah -- I love Delphine as a way to honor Delores, and it sounds wonderful with Natalie.

KRC--Lola and Lolita are traditional NNs for Dolores. I don't know if Nabokov had the meaning of the name in mind, though. There are several possibilities, in addition to just the "sorrows" meaning, or random naming. On one hand, it could be ironic, because it's a very chaste, Catholic name. On the other hand, the NN Lola/Lolita has a bit of an exotic/playful/sexual flair to it (think "Whatever Lola Wants" from Damn Yankees, which also came out in 1955) so maybe he was just going for that. I don't know if he ever explained it....

Placenta Jones,

I appreciate your skepticism on the OB/GYN issue. I don't know if the doctor I met was lying or not, but he IS present at a lot of births. I'm just relaying what he told me.

However, I'm slightly taken aback at your open hostility towards what my family has always believed (over at least 1000 years) to be our ancestry. I don't really know where you're getting your information about Boudicca from, but her husband's name was Prastagus, so clearly SOMEBODY knows what his name was. Here's some information from a book of surnames:

Peabody Surname Origin:

There is an ancient tradition (we give it for what it is worth), that this name was derived from one Boadie, a kinsman of Queen Boadicea, who assisted her in her revolt against the Romans. After the Britons were subdued by the Romans, Queen Boadicea dispatched herself by poison, and Boadie, with a remnant of the Britons, escaped to the mountains of Wales. Boadie, among the Cambri or Britons, signified a man or a great man, and Pea signified a large hill, a mountain, from which Boadie came to be called Peabodie, or the Mountain man, which became the name of the tribe.
Source: An Etymological Dictionary of Family and Christian Names With an Essay on their Derivation and Import; Arthur, William, M.A.; New York, NY: Sheldon, Blake, Bleeker & CO., 1857.

What they describe is, in fact, the tradition that has been passed down through my family (and we have verified family records chronicling from pre-1000 AD describing this same family story). It's true that it may never be known if the Peabodys are direct descendents of Queen Boudicca, but it seems to be a widespread enough idea that I'm willing to believe it until we invent a time machine and go find out ourselves. For further reading, I suggest looking up my some-odd-great uncle George Peabody and seeing that then, too, he was cited as being a descendent of Boudicca. Take it for what it's worth, but it's the New York Times. And really, 2000 years on, aren't the chances of being descended from somebody that much greater? 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great greats, 16 great great greats....

To the regular readers of the blog - I'm really sorry I had to expound like this to someone who's kind of a troll. Let's get back on topic.

Thanks, hyz. I know Lola and Lolita are traditional nicknames for Dolores. I was just wondering if anyone knew whether he picked Dolores with that meaning in mind. He was such a master of allusion - I'm sure I didn't pick up on half of it in Lolita and English is my first language, whereas I think it was at least his third! That's interesting that you point to the exotic/playful/sexual flair to Lola/Lolita that already existed in 1956. I always thought Lolita as a name got its connotations from the book, but I guess you are right about Lola in Damn Yankees.

Can I just say - as a NE, and as a lover of lyricism in literature, the opening of Lolita is the greatest of all time:

“She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms, she was always Lolita.”

I committed that to memory the first time I read it. How I envied all those names for one girl!

Re: "The Ethel-Mae Postulate"

I grew up in the 90's with two friends named Francesca in our 500 person high school. It seems about as common a name as Emily to me as a result (we had only one of those)! Then, when I got to college, who lived across the hall from me but yet another Francesca.

I was thinking about my childhood best friend when I realized how very ahead of the trends their parents were on naming them. The kids are Amelia (who goes by Emma), Lily, Jackson, and Walker. You'd expect these kids to be under 10, right? They range from mid-20's to teenage. I remember thinking that they had slightly weird names when I was a kid - if I only had known how fashion-forward they were!

Katie - My father is an obgyn. He, like many great story tellers, knows that "did" makes a better story than "almost". I'm a big fan of myth and legend. Quite frankly, I believe it's vitally important to the human psyche to believe the implausible, and local and familial myth is a great outlet for that!

KRC--

I too have that passage memorized, but more because of the way Jeremy Irons says it at the beginning of Adrian Lyne's film. Oh, that man could read the phone book and it would sound wonderful, so with words like those...yummy.

re: Dolores--

What about Loren as a way to honor Dolores?

Oh, and I have to chime in on another topic. I graduated with a class of 29 students. We had a Brandy, a Brandie, a Brandi, and a Brant.

Except the Jamie Hector character was spelled "Marlo".

Marlowe has long been a favorite of mine, with a nickname of "Marley"

Thanks, CB! I'm an English major, and I can't resist a good story. And if I learned that story on my grandfather's knee, it's all the more enticing.

Familial myth is so intriguing to me, as I've got the well-documented Peabodys on one side, and then on the other, a family of stoic Holocaust survivors who refuse to speak of the past. Sometimes I try to dream up their stories, as it's so sad that their memories will be forgotten when the last of the war generation passes on.

Can I just add that I really like Calix? The more I scan over Laura's post, the more it appeals to me. Though I suppose that out loud, it sounds kind of like a kreative Alex, which would not be ideal. Someone mentioned Thora earlier on, too, in the discussion of "th" names. I think I secretly love that one too. Ah, my naming arsenal grows daily...

Holy cow, Brandy, Brandi, Brandie, and Brant? Out of 29 people? Poor Brand(t)ies.