The Baby Name Wizard

Looks like Ethan Hawke and his new wife just had their baby and named her Clementine Jane.

Does he still count as a celebrity?

Keren- thanks for that incredible link. I also feel for Number 16 Bus Shelter (place of conception??). Poor children.

Re: Clementine Jane

Do you think they're pronouncing it the American way (-tyne) or the British way (-teen)? I know Ethan Hawke's wife is from the British Isles (Irish, perhaps?), but I think he's American. I prefer -tyne, but then again, I'm American and it sounds more familiar.

I really think that Jane is the up and coming middle name. They seem to come in pairs, like Ann and Marie, or Grace and Rose nowadays. What do you think will be Jane's ubiquitous middle name pair, if it gets to that point?

A New Zealander friend of mine says that most of these names (the ones that were supposedly submitted but not accepted) are actually urban legends rather than real names.

But, of course, if it says it in the Guardian, it MUST be true!

Cross-posted; I was referring to the names from the article linked above.

Just my $0.02, but I prefer Julianne or Juliana to Jillian. Jillian reminds me of the sports bar/game venue called Jillian's. I also think Grant would go well with Sterling.

SusieQ - I hope so! But what about the ones he says were allowed!

What do you think of calling a child the "wrong" nickname for their name?

I love the name Eleanor, and I have always wanted to name my daughter that (I'm due in 2 weeks). This name is not desperately popular itself, but its common nicknames Ella and Ellie (I'm not into Nora) definitely are. I've always liked the nickname "Elsie" since my dad sometimes called me that for my initials (LC). Do you think it would be weird to use the nickname Elsie, which usually goes with Elizabeth, for a little Eleanor?

Although, with all the talk of Sylvie on the board the other day, I'm thinking of scrapping Eleanor altogether and going with Sylvie! Course we might have a boy, in which case this all will be moot.

Shirley, since you like Rose names what about combining Rose in a name?

Lilah Rose sounds very southern belle to me.

Lida Rose (from song in the Music Man) pronounced LYE-dah.
Lana Rose
Ella Rose
Bella Rose

Fish -- I think Elsie works as a nickname for Elenor... you could also give her the middle name Sylvie or a middle name that starts with a C.

Eleanor Sylvie... think about it.

Fish- Elsie as a nn for Eleanor is perfectly logical. You could call her Eleanor Sylvie, just to add the "s" in her full name :)

Interesting stuff.

My sister, Jill, just Jill, was born in 1986. In her graduating high school class a few years ago there was a Jill, two Jillians, a Jillia (yup!!), a Gillian (soft G) and a Gillianne, all born in '86.

Alsao, her grad class was 68 people big. No real reason as to why this happened, but I thought I'd share!!

Fish - Elsie sounds more natural for Eleanor to me, because they both stress the "Ell" sound which isn't really sounded in Elizabeth. I also far prefer it to Ellie/a and Nora and the link to your childhood nickname is really sweet. Besides, it's not as if there are many little Elizabeth-nicknamed-Elsies running about, so it shouldn't be too confusing.

Veering off-topic, has anyone else noticed that nicknames seem to be becoming more regimented nowadays? I'm seeing a lot of "We're spelling it Maddyson so we can call her Maddy", and "Can we spell it Lizzie if we spell Elisabeth with an 's'?" about. Even on a less drastic scale, there seem to be more Cates and Caties about too, whereas I would instinctively spell it with a K whichever spelling of Catherine it came from. I'm talking more about parents who feel restricted, rather than people who choose to spell their nickname a certain way.

Go with Elsie. It's not "wrong," just unusual--if you like and use Elsie for Eleanor, it IS right for your kid, eh?

(I'm in the same boat--my son, now a teen, uses a nickname that's not usually associated with his very common formal name, but with another very common formal name--but it's what I liked! We've used this nickname from the NICU forward, and it's just accepted; most folks don't even know his "real" name, except on forms.)

Yes, Lucie, I do get the sense from some younger parents that they're afraid the "name police" will issue them a ticket if they use the names, nicknames, and spellings they like and prefer, inconsistencies and all.

It's okay to have fun with a name! It's sad when what should be a joyful, personal gift to your child becomes a stressful exercise in following rules and seeking peer approval.

I agree, Sister Melinda. It's sad indeed... and it brings out the closet anarchist in me. I say bring on the "wrong" nicknames!

"Although, with all the talk of Sylvie on the board the other day, I'm thinking of scrapping Eleanor altogether and going with Sylvie! Course we might have a boy, in which case this all will be moot."

Hey, I know a fiftyish man named "Sylvan," so you never know...

Re: Elinor -- My great-aunt, born in 1909, had this name with this spelling, and I've always liked it.

I think Elsie is the prettiest nickname and it works just FINE with Eleanor. A lot of nicknames add an "s" when the original name doesn't have one. Think of Patsy for Patricia, or Wills for William... and I'm sure there are lots of other examples, too.

"My sister, Jill, just Jill, was born in 1986. In her graduating high school class a few years ago there was a Jill, two Jillians, a Jillia (yup!!), a Gillian (soft G) and a Gillianne, all born in '86.

Also, her grad class was 68 people big. No real reason as to why this happened, but I thought I'd share!!"

Sure there's a reason: The Ethel-Mae Postulate, as discussed in the "X and O roundup" thread just before this one.

Regarding the "regimented nicknames" -- how odd. How would you get, say, Ted from Edward? Call the kid Tedward? Meg from Margaret = Megaret? Color me baffled.

Another old variant is Ellenor; a girl I know has it as a middle name and I've always been fond of it.

This Comment isn't related to the discussion, but...I was just on another baby name forum. An expecting mother had posted a list of names that she was choosing from - everyone that commented gushed about her name choices and how skilled she was at choosing baby names. The names that she was choosing from were names such as;
Lily
Sophia
Emma
Ava
Olivia
I'm not knocking the names, (people would probably not be too fond of the names I chose for my children, so I'm not one to judge) they are pretty, but it sounds like she took the top few names in the country, and people were blown away by her baby naming skills. Basically I'm trying to say, thank-you for giving me somewhere that I can come read intellectual discussions, and get interesting name choices. I love reading this blog and all the great comments. You are a rare and wonderful breed.

Shirley-Something to go with Annalise and Sterling would be something like Grant or Graham as mentioned above by others. However, you say your SO doesn't like Graham, so I would go with Grant. What about names like Wesley, Winston, Howard, Christian, or Kent? To me they sound British yet American.

Oly-ZOE ZOE ZOE! That's my vote. Of course I'm biased. Someone asked about my sn a few threads back and yes it is pronounced Zoe Rhenne(alternate sp of Renee). I also like the Josephine and Rosalie suggestions. Jillian Rose would definately work also if you are really attached to it. I will look if there are others and post again if so.

Re: Gender specific names which has come up often lately, I will make a separate post of something that was posted on one of my genealogy message boards but basically it says that the person had a boy name given to her that was a family name and she used the family name of Courtney for her boy right when it started to be used as a GIRL name.

Lucie -- I absolutely have noticed that nicknames have gotten more regimented. I am Catherine, and always go by Kate. As a kid, the C/K thing never was an issue. I've noticed over the last several years, though, that people are *very* confused by it. Maybe because Cate is becoming a more commonplace nickname. But, come on, Catherine/Kate is NOT that weird!!!

Also, my husband and I are expecting our first child. I'm pushing the name Margaret, after both our maternal grandmothers and because I love the nickname Meg. My husband is reluctant -- he says he just doesn't "get" how Meg is a nickname for Margaret. Frustrating!

Wow, Kate! I thought it was just sort of free-floating knowledge that nicknames can fall pretty far from their formal versions. John = Jack, anyone?

Your husband might be interested in this "Straight Dope" article about nicknames for Margaret, particularly Peggy: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_268.html

"Elsie" is darling for Eleanor/Elinor/Ellenor. (All of those spellings have been around for hundreds of years and I like them all.) Plus, you would have the sentimental tie-in with your Dad's nickname for you-- nice!

I'm always amused that "Ellie" is now an overly-fashionable nickname. When I was being called "Elly"/"Ellie" as a child, it was, if anything, rather nerd-y. I loved it then, but now I much prefer to be nicknamed "Nell", even if my husband is the only one to remember to do it!

I really like it when people take slight liberties with nicknames. Like "Piers" for Peter, or "Zibby" for Elizabeth. They still relate to the original, very traditional name but give it a new "oomph". Some parents are very adept at this, like little "Ravenal"s parents who came up with "Rascal" as his nickname. It's plausible, relates (loosely) to the original formal name, and is amusing to boot. But probably not when he's thirty...

Was just reading veteran newsman Ben Bradlee's memoir, in which he mentions that his second son was named "Dominic" just so he and his wife could nickname him "Dino", which they loved. His third son, with wife Sally Quinn, is named "Josiah Quinn Crowninsheild Bradlee", but always called Quinn...

Re:nn's I never understood the Jack=John combination. My dd is Natalie. We wanted her nn NOT to be Nat so I said Ali(that sp from her name), hubby didn't get the spelling said it was pronounced like the fighter and suggested Allie. I thought that was too far from her real name and ultimately she never was called by ANY nn.
Here's the copy re: the Courtney thing I referenced above (sorry for the length but copying was the only way I could think to post it)-----Post states:
I'm looking for the use of the name Courtney (as a surname, or as a first name
with surname Giffen or Dromgoole) in Scotland (before & after 1600's) and in the
New World (after 1600).

the back story:

This is my middle name -- the story goes that it was given to the 3rd son in
the Giffen or Dromgoole family (I'm not sure if this was a Giffen or Dromgoole
tradition).

When my grandmother was born, she was the 3rd daughter (no sons yet), so they
gave her the name even though it was a male name always borne by male ancestors.

Then it was given to me as I was the 3rd child after 2 brothers. My parents
didn't realize they were going to have another boy 13 yrs later - they could've
given it to him. That's OK, he got "Giffen" which is an awesome name.

All my life I was ribbed about having a boy's name -- as did my grandmother.
So, when my son was born (our first) in 1972, I spontaneously gave him the name
"Courtney" - to give it 'back' to a male heir. Finally I thought I was getting
it back as it was supposed to be even though Josh wasn't a 3rd born.

Well, who knew folks would start naming their girls "Courtney" for the first
time in all of history????? ?? It all started in the 70's!! So my son has been
ribbed all his life for the name! I'm thinking the name is always going to be a
source of ribbing in our family - one way or the other!

He's all grown up -- a mover & shaker in LA, but again, getting the ribbing
from some friends. So I'm trying to research male ancestors in my line who bore
the name. Thanks! Anny

I think this is funny and a great example of things this board can relate too!

BrooklynBabe -- Agreed, but my sense is that many more of the little boys who go by Jack nowadays have the given name Jack, rather than John. Who knows why... It could be that people don't "get" how Jack comes from John. But, I've often heard the sentiment -- why would I name him something if I'm not going to call him that? Case in point: a friend is considering naming her baby simply Maggie, not Margaret.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that "Jack" for "John" came first by way of "Jock"?

So, there'd be John= Jock= Jack. You can see the logical progression there.

Just like Mary= Mally= Molly. I know there are other great examples out there...

"Agreed, but my sense is that many more of the little boys who go by Jack nowadays have the given name Jack, rather than John."

You're probably right, Kate, but there's the very famous example of John "Jack" Kennedy -- not to mention his siblings Edward "Teddy" Kennedy and Robert "Bobby" Kennedy. Who today would have to have been named "Bobbert," I guess, to have the nickname "Bobby."

Sigh. I suddenly feel old.

My mother has a little book from her childhood about the name John. The first page is a little English boy in a school uniform with the caption "This is John." Other pages show the same boy in cultural specific garb with the captions "In Russia, he is called Ivan," etc. I've always been amused by the shirtless boy in overalls with the caption, "In America, he is called Jack."

QUADS Update! Babies are born~!
There was a few worrying moments for the boy both during and after labor, but all 4 babies and mother are accounted for! :)

After intense baby-naming discussion since my last post the names are...[drumroll, please]:

Rosalie Sophiah [due to these comments!]
Ebony Alexina
Dania Margaret
Nathaniel Dex

Y'all can breathe easy again :)
Except that there's a new question brought up by the nurse: How do you pronounce Dania?
"Danny-ah"?
"Dawn-ee-ah"?
"Dah-nya"?

Well, of course, I feel compelled to mention that "just Jack," has been a popular given name in the US for some time. It was 27 in 1908-even more popular than it is now!

Eimi-I might say Dan-ya or Duh-nee-uh. What is mom's intent?
I'm so glad to hear of their safe arrival!

Wow, Eimi, despite your friend's pre-birth confusion, she pulled it off! I think Rosalie, Ebony, Nathaniel, and Dania are good choises, given how all-over-the-place she was--they're not overdone, not too matchy-matchy, and not too out-there weird. Dania I've never heard of, but it's similar to Nadia (were they considering that at one point).

I'm feeling rather relieved! And certainly glad they are all faring well.

*choices. What's with me and my spelling these days?

Glad to hear the quads have arrived safely and that their Mom has given up the Ebony and Ivory theme- I like Nathaniel, Rosalie and Sophiah (although I prefer it without the h).Looking at the name Dania, I would say 'DAN-ya'.

My father is John, nn Jack, born 1930's in the Mid-West. When he was a child, he was known as "Little Jackie LN", which I find very funny now. Jackie seems very female to me.... although I can think of Jackie Gleason and there are probably many others.
I remember watching a TV show where the contestant was John, nn Jack and the presenter asked him why that was in a very perplexed manner. I was astounded.

We also have a Scottish friend named John who is known to everyone as Iain.

I'm sorry people are losing track of the original nn's. Signs of the times...

NN dilemma here.

We wanted to name our son a biblical "J' name. We went with Jonah and at home we call him JoJo about half the time. He's about to switch from a daycare center (where the kids and teachers mostly call him JoJo but it is written Jonah on cubby, art projects, etc) to a Jewish preschool. The director at the new school tells me we need to "pick one" name for him as he enters his new school. I mention that the school is Jewish because I think this accounts for the surprising numbers of Jonahs. There is one in each grade/class and there is another little Jonah younger than him that will be entering the year after my Jonah.

Jonah uses his names interchangeably and when we ask him which he likes he gives a different answer each time (he's 2!) One of the reasons we chose Jonah is that we thought it would be less common, who knew that we should have gone with Jacob or Josh for that!?!? I always hated that there we 3-4 Jennifer/Jenny/Jens in my every class which is why I'm leaning towards JoJo for preschool. Still, we really don't expect that he will be JoJo forever (except as a family term of endearment, of course). I'm guessing once he goes to public school there will not be as many Jonahs around.

What should we do?

I relate to the trend of a liking a longer more formal name. I also like nicknames. I would definately go with Jillian and use the name Jill.

My daughter is Elizabeth but we call her Libby. I'm pregnant now with twins. I have no idea what I'm having yet, but I like the name Nina very much. Does anyone have a suggestion for a longer or more formal sounding full name for Nina? Or is Nina legit enough on it's own?

Congrats on the twins! I think Nina is a great name all on its own

Weird that this post started with Jillian- it's on my girl name list along with Annabelle (which my husband isn't going for...)
It's great to see everyone's opinion on it, and it seems to all be positive! Thanks!

Then, after reading all of these posts, the whole John/Jack thing came up. My husband is John, and his father John passed away when he was young. Therefore, if we have a boy, we have to name him John after his grandfather. I'm dreading our baby boy becoming Johnny, as my husband was when he was little, so I've been trying to push naming him John and calling him Jack. He just doesn't how John can be Jack- it doesn't make any sense to him, and I'm losing that battle. I'm ok with John, just NOT Johnny!
I don't get the John=Jock=Jack explanation- where in the world did anyone get Jock from John?

PS- yes, I have realized that makes my choices Jack and Jill :) (but Jillian would never be Jill- I think Jilly would be her nickname if she ends up with one, and since we only have one on the way, we won't end up with a Jack and Jill in the long run!)

Erin: Our two-year-old John is called just John by most everyone, even though we sometimes call him Johnny at home. I think people these days are less likely to presume a nickname... possibly as a correlary to the rigidity of nicknaming that has sprung up?

That's corollary. Right.

itchybrain, Nina is a totally legit name on its own. It's technically (I believe) a nickname for Ann/Anne or Anna, along the lines of Nan and Nancy. I think you could also use it as a nickname for many N names, as well-- Naomi, Natalie, Ninette/Nanette. Or you could use it as a nickname for names with the "ina" sound-- Valentina, Whilemina, Christina, Katrina, Rosina, etc.

Antonina, too

yet another Jenny-

I have to say, I only know one Jonah, and I know absolutely Gobs of little kids and babes.
Who knew?!

Personally, I'd go with Jonah at preschool. I think JoJo has an endearing quality better for home. I also think it's a teensy bit obnoxious that the director insists you choose, though I can understand that it makes things easier.

Itchybrain-I think Nina is just fine on its own and lovely with Libby.

I was reading an obituary today of a woman named Willamary. Her nickname was "Vicky."
I think it's certainly true that nns were less regimented in previous generations. I also think folks were more inclined to just let a nn "happen." For example, a gal overheard me calling Jack "Jaybird," an admitedly unimaginative nn we've always used for him. She told me her father in law used to strip all his clothes off and run out the door, so everyone called him Jay-as in naked as a jaybird.
She said she was married for years before she learned he had a different given name!

Perhaps we're just more controlling of everything our wee ones do these days? Sorry if that's a bit of a ramble...I've given the boys over to Caillou for a bit.
Take care, all!

I believe Laura's daughter is named Nina. Considering her stance on nicknames as given name, I think that is argument enough that Nina can stand on its own.

Eimi -- Congrats to your friend on the safe arrival of the quads! And it seems like she did a great job with the names after a close call with some of her earlier choices. I would pronounce Dania as if it were a Spanish name -- Dah-nee-ya.

Re: nns ... My grandfather was an Anthony who was known by Bob by almost everyone who knew him (only his siblings ever called him Tony). Also, my husband's grandmother was Katie (formal name: Catherine). When we decided on Katherine for our daughter's middle name I assumed her Catherine was spelled with a K because she was Katie with a K. Although Katie makes more sense to me, even if someone's given name is Catherine. (I have a grandmother Katherine, which is why we ultimately chose the K spelling for our daughter.)

Re: Nina ... I see Nina as a stand-alone name or a nn. My daughter has two friends who are called Nina. One is "just Nina" and one is Christina who is called Nina by her family.

Ichybrain: Nina is a wonderful name, says the mother of a Nina! Anything longer sounds overly fussy to me with Elizabeth. I get compliments all the time about what a pretty name it is. It's easy to spell and pronounce yet has a timeless quality much like Elizabeth. The description in Laura's book is awesome and sealed the deal for us.

What are your other choices? I'd love to see what you'd pair with it. Do you have another girl name and any boy names yet? I think that'd be so hard. I can't imagine doing it times 4!

Eimi, she did a good job and I'd pronounce it DANya. Is that how she pronounces it? I knew a girl in HS with that name but spelled Danya.

In my experience, some people are just more inclined to nickname-giving than others. My dad is very creative with the names he uses and these names are always evolving, to the point that what began as clearly related to our given names now seems very... odd. The most straight-forward: Karyn --> Karynsky --> Insky (Insk for short, because every good nickname needs a nickname.)

And I think that there is something to be said for using nicknames in an informal capacity only because then there is an intimacy associated with the nickname that wouldn't be there is that were the name used when registering in school. Friends have a way of nicknaming anyway and it's nice to be called something different by your friends than by your teachers.

Granted, my nickname of "Kar" isn't terribly creative, but my family and all of my good friends down through years have all called me that and it is associated in my mind with closeness. In fact, when my boyfriend occasionally calls out my full name when trying to get my attention, I actually cringe - even though I go by that name all the time outside of my house and don't mind it in the least. Similarly, when I am annoyed with my sister and subconsciously call her by her full name, she deliberately responds with MY full name, and the experience is jarring.

Thanks for the advice re: Eleanor/Elsie! I think we will go with a family name for the middle name, either Jean (grandma) or Hazel (great-grandma). Might have to save Sylvie for the next kid (maybe Eleanor Jean and Sylvie Hazel?). So, no C for the middle name, but her last name would begin with C - I hadn't thought of that connection to the nn, so thanks for pointing it out.

Jasper and Finlay are our front-runners for boys names, so I was amused when Laura chose Jasper as a brother for Sylvie a few days back. I guess our tastes fall into categories whether we like it or not. Apparently our category is "neo-yuppie" according to the authors of 'Beyond Jennifer and Jason.' Basically every single name my husband and I had on our short list of 10 or so names was listed in that section! Who knew.

Nina is great. Snappy. Similar sounding, I like Lena.