The Baby Name Wizard

Hm, but isn't Dexter just "right" in Latin, like in dexterity, ambidextrous, etc? That seems a more likely origin for the name.

kat,
I also have problems thinking of Lowell or Peregrine as feminine names--I like them both very much for boys--but of the two, I guess I'd probably pick Lowell for a girl. I definitely wouldn't change the spelling, even though the extra E *would* make it seem more feminine, because it would also change the pronunciation to something less attractive, imho. I like Aurora, but I agree with Trish that it's hard to say with Reyn, even though I don't have any problem saying Aurora by itself.

I actually love Winter as an option, but maybe for your next child--Winter Reyn IS rather comical. DH and I also tossed that one around this time, but with our baby due in the height of summer (T minus 3 weeks, now!), it also seemed a bit odd. Speaking of which, since I want our next baby (if it's a boy) to be August, maybe we ought to shoot for another summer baby next time... nothing like planning ahead. ;)

Moonie--

It would have been Dexter, like Baxter and Webster. Those are the feminine forms. The masculine ones are Dyer, Baker, and Weaver.

As for Peregrine, it is a male name, which doesn't seem to bother the parents of female children these days, but it bothers me. I personally associate the name 100% with Smollett's novel, Peregrine Pickle, although non-English majors are not likely to have heard of it. I'm afraid that I would end up calling any little Peregrine I came in contact with "Pickle," but that's just me and anyone else who reads 18th century novels.

I like both Lowell and Peregrine for a girl/woman... I think I'd choose Peregrine over Lowell, based on sound alone. Peregrine Reyn is beautiful.

Also, I love Dove and Paloma!

Webster, Baxter, and Dexter as feminine occupational names? Really? Can anyone point me to a reliable source on this? Because the OED I have doesn't give this origin at all.

Ah, I didn't even realise Peregrine was a male name; I associate it with peregrine falcons. I guess the bird of prey association isn't the best, but in a more positive light, it makes me think of a bird swooping about freely in the sky.

Sister Melinda, the Oxford Concise Dictionary of First Names is online here, you can look up names:

http://www.askoxford.com/dictionaries/name_dict/?view=uk

Apparently, Brewster is another one. The old feminine suffix for these names was -estre.

I would pick Peregrine over Lowell. I think Lowell looks and sounds very masculine. I just can't imagine a little girl being happy about having this name.

Even though Peregrine is traditionally a male name, I think it sounds very feminine and fitting for a girl. Considering how uncommon the name is currently, I don't think many non-NE's would even realize it is male.

Also, I think Sunday and Dove are beautiful. I just knew Nicole Kidman would come up with a good one. Not sure sure about Matthew McConaughey. Can't wait to see what this baby is named.

No, you're right, I should have looked closer--I spotted the definitions in the online OED soon after I posted. Not for dexter, which I'm still dubious about, but baxter and webster are given as sometimes having gender-specific meanings--there are more examples given where they *aren't* gender-specific, though.

Thanks for all of the input! We are gonna have to make a decision really soon since I'm about to leave for the hospital! I wish I had found this site earlier!

Marjorie~
I like Leslie for a girl unless you live in the UK. Without the accent it comes across as a little shy for a boy's name.
For Zachary I would do Zachai pronounced Zak-eye or Zachaia (zak-eye-ah) but I'm strange like that.
I like Enoch but its tough to change to fem. My first thought was Echo which I've seen around some playgrounds here in NYC...
Ebenezer was destroyed by Dickens if it can be changed to something honorable and non "scroogy" I'm all for it! Simeon I would change to Simone, which is a fav of mine and would be our daughters name if I hadn't already given it to our Great Dane.. (sigh) I like Sethia for Seth. I'm sure there is a great one for Travis but my pregnant brain isn't working properly at the moment. Travalia, Maybe? Pronounced Tra-val-ia

On the Homer side-Calliope is, imo, a fantastic way to Honor a Homer for a girls name. Didn't Soleil Moon Frye name her daughter Poet?

Dove is great but it does make me think of soap which for me anyway, is not a negative enough association not to choose it. Paloma is also a great one as a femme version of Paul.

While Peregrine has traditionally been used for boys, it hasn't been used much for anyone in decades--and its meaning "pilgrim" isn't gender-specific at all--it has a lovely sound combination. I say, fair game for a girl. I agree with others, almost no one will read it as "a boy's name," but only as an unusual, old-fashioned name.

I think the gender distinction was lost pretty early on with those -ster names, as English developed. I agree that Dexter, as a first name, has probably been chosen more often with the Latin meaning in mind - as a first name, it seems a lot more popular than the others. I've known a couple of Dexters (and I think of it primarily as a first name), but no Baxters, Websters or Brewsters. Even so, I hypothesise that Dexter wouldn't have taken off as a first name if it wasn't already familiar as a surname. Perhaps people thought the surname's origin was Latin, but I think the occupational meaning is a more likely origin - I can't think of any other common English surnames that come direct from Latin.

Kat,

I know this is last minute, but how about honoring Lowell by using the name Marlo (or Marlow/Marlowe), like the actress Marlo Thomas, famous for the 1960's show "That Girl." It has a sort of mod boyish appeal.

Aurora is lovely, though with the massive Disney Princess marketing, it does connote Sleeping Beauty to many kids and parents. I think that's why it seems more popular than it is. Athena has a similar feeling and style.

Good luck!

I keep forgetting to say that I think Sunday is a sweet name. I wouldn't choose it myself, but I think it's quite nice.

I almost think with a temporal name like this, you're better off having the birth *not* associated with the day or the month itself. It's a little much to name someone Sunday who was born on Sunday or to name someone August who was born in August. I think it works better if the name and the day/month of birth aren't connected. Then you just say you liked the name, and you're done with it.

Steph P -- I agree about Matthew McConaughey, it will be interesting to see what that baby ends up being named!

kat -- Yep, Soleil Moon Frye's first daughter is named Poet.

Re: Peregrine vs. Lowell

I agree with several above that Peregrine is definitely a boy's name. The obvious NN is Perry. What would you call a girl: Grinny? Perrin? The hobbit Pippin is also named Peregrin (though I think without the final "e') and he's definitely a male. So is a fairly major character in Iris Murdoch's novel The Sea, The Sea. I would steer clear of it for a girl.

OTOH, I think Lowell is fairly unisex. I wouldn't let the association with Lowell, Mass. bother you. In fact, it's an important part of American history, as one of the main sites of the emergence of the American industrial revolution. Like many of those towns, it's now economically depressed, but it does have an extremely important historical role. I guess it would be a bit like naming someone Manchester (which, I agree, isn't that great...). On the whole, I find Lowell much more feminine.

Amy3, I've been wondering about that, with the temporal names thing. On one hand, I like using the season to inspire the name (Holly or Carol born near Christmas, Valentin born near Valentine's Day, etc.), but it can seem a bit too obvious if it's the name of an actual day, month, season, etc. On the other hand, having baby Winter born in the heat of July seems odd, too, unless maybe there's some decent story to go with it. August might be an exception for me, since we like it for both its etymological and historical meanings as well as the temporal connection. I think it could be a name for *almost* any season, but I might have qualms if he was born December-February--thinking that it might just be tooo incongruous. I don't know.

I don't mind Sunday as a name. I wouldn't pick it, but I can see the appeal. And maybe it could be a new option for (Christian) religious naming?

I like Dove, but it's a little short for me, personally--maybe great with a long LN, though. I have a hard time with clipped, 1 syl names. But I love the imagery and meaning is--I like Callum and Colombe for this reason. I'm not such a fan of Paloma--I get a sense from it that's a weird cross between Pomona, CA and bologna, the lunch meat.

Toni Morrison's novel "Beloved" has a female character named Sethe (pronounced Seth-uh), so that's a possibility for a way to honor a male Seth. I always thought she was making a reference to Lethe, since the character is beset by memory problems due to severe trauma.

I suppose that parents of a baby named Winter born in July could just say, "We were so wishing we'd been in the Southern Hemisphere that year!"

hyz -- I see your point about using a name like Winter for a baby born in the dead of summer. That would be a bit of a stretch. Seasonal names may be better when used closer to the season of the baby's birth.

However, a name like August, which has regular use beyond the name of the month, I think could be used all year round (with the exception of the month of August!).

I also agree that names like Carol, Holly, and Valentin can easily be used in the appropriate season without seeming too overdone. Similarly they can be used off-season, too.

I suppose, for me, naming someone Sunday who was also born on Sunday is just too matchy.

Another common English surname derived from Latin: Chester (from Latin "castra," encampment), and names containing -chester or Chester-. I realize they're more precisely toponyms derived from Latin, then used as personal names, but still, it's another example.

Naming someone Sunday who was also born on a Sunday would make me wonder if the parents didn't think up a name until the day of the birth! "Quick, what's today? July 6? No, what day? Sunday? Okay, that'll work. Write that down."

(My mother was named for the delivery room nurse--so you know there wasn't much forethought going into that choice, either. "Hey you, in the white cap, what's your name?" "Me? I'm Geraldine." "Yeah, that's good enough. Write that down.")

Thinking on it more, I kinda like the connotations of Sunday as a name--restful day, sunny, special. And the sound is fine. And at least they didn't spell it Sundé, or Sunndy, or somesuch.

Well, a baby born in August would have been conceived in the winter, so maybe it wouldn't be such a stretch!
I have met two women named Sunday. Both would be in their fifties now, I think. Both were from the South, and both were waitresses. I'd bet there are a few Sundays running around Nashville.

Hi...I need help naming my third baby.

1st : Adeline Gray - Addy
2nd : William Michael - Will

Any suggestions. I like old names...thought about

Graham Wesley or Matilda Elizabeth - Mae

IMHO, Graham doesn't "go" with Addy and Will so very well, but if it's a name you're in love with go for it! I like Wesley for a fn, but I suppose you already have a W name.

Hyz- My August was born in February. We chose the name to honor a family member and our German heritage. It has always bothered me when people assume that there is a connection to August in a calendar sense (and this is always the case). I don't think we would have chosen this name had he been born in August.

I personally think choosing a seasonal name out of season is perfectly acceptable. I really like the name Winter due to the imagery and feeling the season evokes and this would remain true whether it is July or January. I might even feel more strongly connected to a name like Winter in July considering I'm in very hot Texas.

More ideas for Addy and Will's sibling:

Helen Elizabeth (Nell)
Henry Graham (Hank)
Leonora Jane (Nora)
James Wesley (Jay)
Sadie Matilda (Sadie)

hyz- THAT'S what Paloma reminds me of--- Pomona (I live fairly close). I've always wondered why the name bothers me. LOL

Jo- I like Graham spelled Graeme. But I love Sister Melinda's suggestion of Henry Graham best.

General question... what is the background for surnames to be considered "male"? I understand when the meaning is "Son Of ...", but other than that? Is it *just* historical usage or precedent? Thanks.

I've been thinking about the seasonal names as well- I'm due with #2 right at the end of December, and I absolutely love the name Maria. I wonder if it's too much for a Christmas baby, though. (On the other hand, for most of the child's life, no one would know when the bday is, anyway.)

Another issue I have with Maria is that my 2 year old's nanny (whom she adores) is named Maria. It seems like it might be confusing or strange for our daughter if we named a new sister Maria, too. Having a sibling will be a big enough change, I'm sure! Anyone have experience with this- how confusing is it for the older sibs?

Anyway, maybe it'll be a boy, and all my concerns with Maria will be non-issues. :-)

And Kat, I hope your delivery of your little girl is going smoothly- can't wait to hear what you end up choosing!

Sister Melinda--

Castra was borrowed into Old English in the form of ceaster (c pronounced like ch and ea is a diphthong) as a toponym many centuries before the development of genuine heritable surnames. Depending on local dialect and other circumstances, it can appear as -caster (Lancaster), -chester (Winchester), or -ster (Worcester). By the time place names were adopted as surnames (or even bynames), I dare say very few people were aware that many of them were ultimately derived from Latin (or Latinized Celtic), often via Anglo-Norman.

During the rise of Humanism in the Early Modern period, intellectuals in England were switching from Latin to English for writing learned texts. In the Low Countries Humanists did just the opposite, switching from Dutch to Latin. Hence during that period both given names and surnames in the Low Countries could take Latin forms. Examples include Desiderius Erasmus (Erasmus is Greek) and the Anglo-Dutch philologist Franciscus Junius. Even today Dutch Catholics give their children Latin forenames. For instance, I have a dear friend named Jacobus Petrus Lambertus, known 100% of the time as Jack.

The fashion of Latinizing surnames didn't catch on in England, although of course purely Latin given names are not uncommon (Julia/Julius, Claudia/Claudius, Cornelia/Cornelius, etc.).

Dexter is indeed a feminine occupational title, the use of which as a given name may or may not have been influenced by the Latin word. I rather doubt it though. I think it is purely part of the surname as given name phenomenon. After all, not too many little Sinisters running around :-). (Yes, I know that words for the concept of 'left' tend to be pejorative.)

There are other feminine occupational titles which didn't catch on as surnames. Spinster is an obvious example. Instead of becoming a surname and then a forename, it eventually took on the meaning of "older woman no longer likely to find a husband." Another feminine occupational title which did not morph into a popular surname is tappestere, which means 'barmaid.' I guess no one was in a hurry to be known as Master or Mistress Barmaid.

These surnames (and later forenames) give us a glimpse into the participation of women in the late medieval economy. Words like spinster, webster, and dexter indicate women's employment in the cloth trades, while baxter, brewster and tappestere point to the victuallers. Indeed much of the ale consumed in medieval England was brewed by women (alewives) working at home. Such women would have a stake erected in front of their cottages, and when a batch was ready for purchase and consumption, a garland was placed on top of the alestake.

Re: Sunday Rose...
OK magazine explains the choice:
"A day after Sunday's birth, Nicole's father Antony shared the inspiration -- and namesake -- behind his granddaughter's unusual name -- Sunday Reed, the muse of famed Australian artist Sidney Nolan."
"Rose is in homage to Keith's grandmother, who passed away in 2004"

In other celeb news, I don't know if anyone's mentioned Matthew McConaughey released his baby's name: Levi Alves McConaughey. According to OK:

"Levi was another name for the apostle Matthew in The Bible. They were, in fact, two names for the same person."

"Our son was born at 6:22 pm, and this particular time represents my favorite verse in the book of Matthew in The Bible: "If thy eye be single, thy whole body will be full of light

Steph P.--right, I think we've discussed this before. I should also say I have qualms about naming a boy August if he IS born in August. For me, all these qualms with August are specifically due to anticipating being annoyed by people asking when he was born when they hear his name, and having some remark to make about it either way. Because of August's independent meanings, I don't have the same "huh" reaction to a February August as I do to a baby Winter born in July--but I anticipate that others will. It's kind of like this--we have this intensely annoying neighbor, and DH and I were just talking about how this guy is *so* annoying that he can irritate you with things he hasn't even done yet. We just bought a new car this weekend (to replace our very old and tired one), and DH and I were both privately annoyed just *anticipating* all of the comments this guy would *surely* make about our purchase when he saw it--it was funny when we realized we had both been stewing over the same non-existent event. :) So, my qualms with August are all in anticipation of people like this guy. If that makes sense. But actually, maybe I shouldn't worry about it at all, because it seems like one of those situations where you won't be able to escape comment no matter what you do. Ok, it's decided--we won't try to time our next conception based on my desire to use the name August. lol.

Miriam--re: Dexter, I'm not sure if you meant that its popularity as a FN *today* wasn't based on the Latin meaning, or if you were referring to its early use as a FN, but I can tell you anecdotally that I've seen a fair number of people considering this name lately, and they all make reference to the Latin meaning, while I've never seen anyone mention the occupational connection. I do think it's picking back up today thanks in part to the LNs first trend, but when people consider meaning, they seem to focus on the Latin.

Jo, I think your kids' names are really handsome, and that either of the options you mentioned for baby #3 would go wonderfully. I love Graham, spelled just that way. I also love the suggestion of Henry Graham. I'm less fond of Matilda (just because it sounds so popular now--I quite like it on its own merits), but I really like Mae as a nn. There are so many excellent choices out there that seem to fit your criteria, I'm not sure what else to suggest. Maybe Margaret Eleanor (nn. Mae or Maisy)?

My sister married into a Mexican family and really wants to use the name Paloma when they have kids. Her inlaws say that Paloma doesn't mean "dove," it means "pigeon." I have confirmed with other Spanish speaking people that Paloma is a rather unattractive name in their minds. My sister's reaction? She's naming a future daughter Paloma, inlaws be d*mned! LOL!

Just so she knows that "las palomitas" means popcorn in Spanish... I kinda think that's a plus for a little kid's name, but I have kids who are a bit popcorn-like (zing! pop! whiz!).

Bruce is from a Scottish surname, of Norman origin, which probably originally referred to the town of Brix in France. So Brix or Bree (which is how it would be pronounced I think) might work.

Sorry, hyz, I wasn't clear. I was only talking about the historical origin and development of the word 'dexter,' not why a parent might choose the name today. For all I know parents might be naming their kid after Dexter the serial killer. After all, I have heard of people considering naming children after Bellatrix L'Estrange and Draco Malfoy.

As for doves and pigeons, they come from the same family, and to some extent the (English) words are used interchangeably for the same species. In general, the larger species are called pigeons and the smaller ones doves, but the distinction is by no means clear cut. Since I don't speak Spanish I don't really know which species would and wouldn't be called paloma in everyday usage. The most prominent person I know with that name is Paloma Picasso.

The more I read about Australian Sunday Reed, the more I really like the name for Nicole's baby.

"Reed's wife, Sunday, was earth mother to the artists, gathering and nurturing them at the Reed's farmhouse, Heide.

It was a civilized rural retreat, filled with books and paintings - and also Siamese cats, which Sunday bred.

Sunday's hospitality was strictly vegetarian - and all the guests were expected not only to contribute to the cerebral interchange but to pull their weight domestically. Sunday had been born into the wealthy Establishment Ballieu family of Melbourne but had become a crucial part of a world which was seen as very avant-garde and politically suspect."

http://www.ernmalley.com/setting_the_scene.html

https://www.qag.qld.gov.au/secure/special_interest?cid=3&pid=1574

Sunday was actually her middle name. Her first name was Lelda.

Thanks Daphne, I wondered if they were influenced by Sunday Reed. The word "muse" can mean many things, but Sunday Reed and her husband John Reed were collectors and supporters of modern art in Australia.

Tirzah,
I suspect that if your sister's in-laws object to Paloma, it will be for reasons other than the pigeon/dove meaning. I've never picked up on a negative connotation to the word just because of the bird (and the same word is used for both birds). If anything, I suspect that (Spanish-speaking) people may react negatively to the name because it's out of fashion, not because it might be confused with a bird's name.

Along the lines of Sunday, my brother emailed me today that an incoming student in the law school where he works has the first name Life, middle name Aquarius. Knowing that I'm a card-carrying NE, he wrote to me as soon as he saw it. Have any of you ever heard of someone called Life?

And do any of you know anything about the name Tasseli? One of my former students is named Tasseli and I've always liked the sound of it (Tass-uh-lee).

My confirmation name is Peregrine - although it's the name of a male saint this didn't cause any issues. Obviously there are quite a few precedents in that situation.

I came across a little girl named Ivy Winter ln last year which I thought was excellent.

Has anyone heard of Palomino as a name?

Going back a ways, Amy3, I think Bernadette could be a nice female namesake for Burchard. Same Bur- sound without the u.

Jo, your children have lovely names. I like Matilda Elizabeth and the Graeme spelling quite a lot (so wish my husband would consider Graeme). I also love hyz's suggestion of Margaret Eleanore/Elinor with nn Mae. You could also do nn Greta, which goes nicely with Addie and Will.

Other nice names:

Lydia (Liddie)
Henrietta (Hetty)
Charles (Charlie)
Jasper

Let us know what you pick!

Oh, and I think Sunday's a lovely name, especially after hearing the Kidman-Urbans' reasons for choosing it. (Plus, I can't help it, it makes me think of ice cream, which makes me both happy and hungry).

Matthew McConaughey-- would not have taken him for a bible reading man. Shows me, I guess. I like the name choice, though. A nice way to name a son after his father without going the junior route.

Finally, my vote is for Lowell rather than Peregrine. The latter is too much a "romance novel hero" name for me to think of bestowing it on an actual child. But Lowell I rather like. Question: Would you object to the nn Lola? It seems likely at least someone in her like woul bestow that upon her.

Well, it makes it easier to understand naming a child Sunday if you are naming after someone else named Sunday!

That said, since the first Sunday is not well known in at least the US, I expect Sunday Rose will spend a lot of time explaining her name.

Thinking about it, I don't expect a April, May, June or August to be born in those months. i did know a girl named September who was born in the month of September which seemed necessary for that name. I expect Autumns, Winters, and Summers to be born in those seasons. Likewise, I expect babies named after a day in the week to have some significant connection to that day.

Yeah, I am way too literal.

My husband's name is Isaac and we considered Caasi, his name spelled backwards, but decided on Abigail. We love that they have similar meanings. Abigail means "my father is joyful" and Isaac means "laughter".

Wendy, I don't think Sunday Reed is that well known in Australia either, except among those interested in the arts. I imagine most Australians would assume Sunday Rose was born on a Sunday.

But I don't think it's that important. How many people do you know what day of the week they were born? I only know one, my daughter - I don't even know what day I was born on!

I went bowling the other day and I noticed a group of ten year old boys next to us...names were Josh, Joe, Matt and ...Apollo!

Okay, Tom's got Suri; Nicole's got Sunday. All sorts of press interest in those two babies and their names. But whatever happened to Nicole and Tom's older (adopted) children Isabella and Conner? I have seen an occasional mention or photo of them, but mostly fans see these families as Tom, Katie and Suri and Nicole, Keith and now Sunday. Who are the older children living with? And with their parents' new families and hectic lifestyles (all over the globe), have they been forgotten by their parents, to some degree, and pushed into the background, part of their past? I hope Isabella and Conner's star parents and spouses are helping them feel just as loved as the two biological babies Suri and Sunday.

As for the names, I far prefer Isabella over either Suri or Sunday.

I've found the answer to where Nicole and Tom's older children live: apparently with neither of their parents. From a report earlier this year:

"Sources reveal Isabella and Connor Cruise have been living with Tom's sister, Cass, in her new Beverly Hills home. It was decided the teens would move in with her when Tom left for Berlin to shoot Valkyrie. (Tom’s sister has long lived with her actor brother and was in charge of home-schooling Connor, 13, and Isabella, 15.)"

Thank goodness they have a devoted aunt.

Miriam, thanks for the clarification on Dexter--that does make more sense to me.

Tirzah, the background on Sunday Reed is interesting--thanks. She does seem like a rather neat person to be named after.

Re: Paloma/pigeon--I know the word for dove and pigeon are the same in Russian, too. Maybe it's mostly Americans (and other English speakers?) that have so discriminated between these two types of closely related birds. I happen to like pigeons.

I haven't heard Palomino as a name--it seems odd to me, since I think of it primarily as a horse color. Then again, I was considering Sorrel, which, in addition to being a botanical name, is also a word used to describe horse color.

I like Ivy Winter a lot. Some might think it too theme-y, but it really sounds like a charming and adventurous character in a children's book, to me.

Life Aquarius LN, eh? That seems like a fairly tough handle to carry through life. I bet he has to say, "yeah, my parents were hippies" a lot.

Laura is quoted in a Yahoo featured article today.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080708/sc_livescience/mostpopularb...

Whoops, can't post the entire link for some reason. The end of the link is

/mostpopularbabynameschangedramatically