The Baby Name Wizard

Oh, no! This can only mean one thing: more little girls named Lola! ARRRGH!

Interesting. Our son's name fits the -n name trend, and we did not choose it for that reason at all; we had strong family reasons to choose the name. And my top name for a girl is Leah, again, for family reasons, and that fits a major trend too. Hmmm.

My name is in there! I haven't seen it on any trendy lists in quite a while.

Side note: Our baby boy put in an early appearance on Sept 11th. Name is James Franklin ln.

Just got back from a 6-year-old's birthday party, here are the names of the girls, all about 5 or 6.

Ava Grace
Ellie
Emmy
Grace
Avery
Deyton
Claire (x2)
Lauren and twin Lindsey
Mackenzie
Madeline (Maddie)
Caroline
Alyssa

hi~

my name is angelina..and growing up everyone called me lina..didnt love that esp. so i changed it when i went to university to lane..
sounded more sophisticated. now i use my full name; but my friends from college still call my lane or laney..havent seen this name yet hit the name charts...

angelina

Interesting to see the top twelve names in Austria. None really jump out at me. I do have a fondness for "Anna" no matter how popular or suavely "international" it is supposed to be. "Katharina" with an "a" somehow seems unnecessarily fussy to me.

I think I like certain unusual "L" names that are strong, as opposed to "frilliana".

Liz and Louka, I've always liked your choice of "Louka". Would you mind repeating how you came by it for your daughter?

Names I wouldn't necessarily use but find interesting: Lilac, Leith, Lucasta..

Thanks eo, I like Louka too. How I came by it: I had the names Mary and Susan in mind, but was still looking out for other ideas. Someone on a naming thread of a baby board said she liked "Luka", which really appealed to me, but many others objected that it was a boy's name. Then I remembered the character "Louka" in George Bernard Shaw's Arms and the Man. She's a sassy, very independent-minded servant, in late 19C Bulgaria. I don't know if Louka was usually a girl's name in Bulgaria, as it seems it's now mostly a boy's name, though there is a female Greek economist with that name, so it does have some history as a girl's name.

I'd add Lilia / Liliya / Lilya to the list. According to the name voyager, its been rising steadily in its popularity in the US lately. If I had a child, I'd use it... but not for the L-start and vowel-end; rather after the '96 Olympic gymnast Lilya Podkopayeva.

There is a little Luna in three year old preschool this year. It's pretty rare that we're on the 'cutting edge' of any national trends in this part of the Midwest, but maybe it's because her parents are Lebanese? She is totally adorable. I just want to squish her!

We also have several Lydias at our school, which would probably get my vote for favorite L--a name.

Lila/Lyla/Lilah is also an L name that I once loved...but it's so overused here in the Boston area that I am (sadly) starting to tire of it.

Lisa in TX -- Congrats on James Franklin! Have fun with your new baby.

ajaz -- I was interested to see Ava Grace as one of the girls' names at the party. Does she always go by Ava Grace? I ask because my daughter, who is almost 7, has a friend who is very regularly Ava Rose. This isn't because we're chock-a-block with Avas, though. I think the parents, the girl, or both simply prefer using both.

I know a lot of girls with L names, but most of them seem to be a year or two younger than my daughter. Ones I see around my neighborhood or among my friends are Lilian (nn Lily), Leanna, Lola, and Lia. I'm sure I'm missing some, though. Now I'll be on the lookout for L!

I *love* Lydia. It's been on my list since the 1980s. So has Lauren. But Lisa is still popular? That's odd. I thought it was kind of a "Jennifer" name, played out in the 70s and not trendy anymore.

I know we've battled about socioeconomic status before, but you might find this amusing. My daughter goes to a fancy preschool in San Francisco (on financial aid and a diversity ticket, she protests!), where there is a high concentration of hipster names: girls named Daly and Ellis, boys named Alistair and Pierre, and so on. But every time I see a class list from years gone by, there are two Carolines--my daughter's name--and two in her class right now. In our family, it's a swamp-yankee name, handed down over generations of barely middle-class shopkeepers, musicians, and teachers. Of course it's also WASPy as heck, a name royalty uses, and popular in wealthier parts of the South. But I had no idea that people with lots of Silicon Valley money, out here in the West, were so jazzed by such a stodgy name.

Quote of the week from THE WEEK magazine: "When I heard that John McCain's running mate had children named Track, Willow, Bristol, Piper, and Trig, I was floored. A lot of Americans, myself included, want to believe this is still the country we grew up in, a country where no one dreamed of giving their children names like Brooklyn or Rhiannon or Darcy. We want to believe we are still living in a country where naming children is a cultural self-preservation tactic, a means of maintaining an institutional memory of the ethnic and religious groups from which the newborn has sprung, a way of maintaining a link with a heroic past rather than a cute or ironic future. But that country no longer exists. American children are no longer named after prophets, warriors, healers, or cultural titans; they are named after Welsh fairies, characters in science-fiction movies, the outer boroughs of New York, and trees." -- Joe Queenan in the Los Angeles Times

Caroline definitely seems WASPY to me. Note that the most popular reference when typing in "Caroline" into Google is Caroline Kennedy. It's hard to go wrong with a Kennedy name.

I know both an Ava Grace and an Ava Rose (and an Ava Louise). Both the AG and the AR tend to use both names, but not consistently. I wonder if it is because the name is visually so short?

The L names seem to fit the generational patterns. In my generation, there was J (Jennifer, Josh). Then came the Ks (Kaley, Katie). Now here come the Ls (Lily, Lila). Maybe in another 10 years, we'll see M names.

Or some of my favorite letters, the "N"'s, "P"'s, or "I"'s...

WOW
My daughters(age 5 & 2) are Leah and Lucy. I had no idea we were in the midst of a trend! I named Lucy after my Great grandmaother who used to tell me tales of the Depression and Leah was my favorite name for a girl growing up...They were going to be Grady if they were boys...another name that is trending up...

Just checking out L-names on the Name Voyager - I wonder if this will positively affect the L-names that were popular earlier: names like Lori and Lauren, the gentler-sounding Lynn or the older-fashioned Linda? Seems to me that those stagnant lakes of L-names are staying put, and L is finding fresh new sources instead - and that's what is also part of the trend. Though Lydia sounds like it might be re-emerging as trendy?

Other top ten female L-names from Europe include these interesting sets (these stats range from 2005 to 2008, found on Wikipedia)
Lotte, Louise, Lore, Lina, Léa, Lucie, Louise (various parts and language areas of Belgium)
Lucija, Laura (Croatia)
Laura, Lene (Denmark)
Lisette, Laura (Estonia)
Louane, Léa, Léna, Louna (France)
Lili, Laura (Hungary)
Lotte, Lieke, Lisa (Netherlands)
Lara, Lana (Slovenia)
Laura, Laia (Catalonia/Spain)
Linnea (Sweden)
(The other German speaking countries' data wer essentially same as Laura's Austrian data set above.)
Could Lotte, Lieke, Laia and Linnea make it in the US naming scene?

I know of one Linnea -- she's probably in her 40s, though. I don't know if it's pronounced LIN-ee-uh, or Lin-NAY-a. Any idea?

Lila...I do kind of like that one. I'm wondering if the moms of these baby Lilas have a vague memory of a character in the "Sweet Valley High" series from the 1980s? Besides that, I've never run across a "Lila".

I also kind of like "Laurel", but it doesn't work very well with our last name (which has an L in the middle).

EssBee
(still undecided at 22weeks 5days pregnant with a girl).

I've known Linneas who have pronounced it both ways... I guess whichever you like better!

I know a Linnea who is a freshman in high school. She pronounces it Lin-NAY-a. That would be my preferred pronunciation, if I were ever to use it (which I would, but my husband would not -- another moot point in naming around my house. It truly is a wonder we managed to name our daughter.)

I have to say my favorite L name is Lindsey. My dd has a Lainey/Laney/Lanie (not sure of sp) in her preschool class. We have a Lily in our neighborhood (3yo). I also knew a Linnea about 15yrs ago. She was 2 at the time. I thought the M's had a little surge about 4/5 yrs back with all the Madeline/Marlena/Maddison and the like showing up. Hmm maybe just a pocket.

Other L names:
Liza, Liz, Leisel, Lacey, Libby and weren't we mentioning Lettice the other day??

Amy3: Yes, she always goes by both names, Ava Grace. I don't know of any other Avas that age that she knows, so I think it was just her parents' choice to call her by both names.

Just come back from my son's first fotball match of the season. Two teams of 8/9 year old boys, Jewish, London:

Jordan, Jonah, Judah, Jamie, Josh, Joshua, Jacy, Jacob.
Archie, Alex, Albie.
Rafi, Yoav, Zac.
It was so funny! Two managers shouting 'J' names all afternoon.

Also noticed in the nursery of my son's school there is a Mia, Thea and Khia.

I also love Lydia, such a pretty name - I know a family with Lucy and Lydia and the mother wanted to call her third girl Loveday, but went for Amy in the end.

I want so badly to like the name Lydia, but for the life of me I cannot erase a very crass limerick from my mind. Actually, it was a witty (?) public service announcement that hung on a billboard of sorts. I saw it often in the mid to late 1990s as I'd take the PATCO high speed line between NJ and Philadelphia. The 3 longer lines of the limerick ended with Lydia, pity ya, and the very unfortunate chlamydia.

The "L" craze has, as Laura noted, been taking Europe by storm. The Germanic countries have been trending towards "smoother" sounding names for years now, which has manifested itself often by borrowing from neighboring France or Italy.

In France itself, however, there has been an absolutely astonishing phenomenon: the introduction of the name "Lilou" and its variants. There's a bit of debate as to whether there was a single Lilou in France before 1997's "The Fifth Element" [the moderator of www.meilleursprenoms.com seems to believe there were a handful], but it's been going down gangbusters ever since. The "lou" sound is something the French simply cannot get enough of-- hence the numerous little Lou-Anns, Louannes, Lylous, and so forth.

I find this so interesting given that the "L" trend in Germanic and Scandinavian countries was largely an appopriation of the smoother-sounding French onomastic options. The French wanted to jump onto their own bandwagon and evidently had nowhere to turn, so linguistically imploded on themselves, reducing the element to its simplest manifestation. Rather like a black hole.

PS Miriam-- I read with great interest your contributions on the other thread. I took my first degree in Medieval French Literature, and was fondly reminded of the good old days in Oxford's Oriental Institute nattering away with the philologists. Now that I'm in the more mundane world of medicine, I'm curious: do you think the massive population displacements caused by the Black Death had any causal relationship to the Great Vowel Shift, or its subsequent dissemination?

By the way, Liz & Louka, thanks for the reminder. Louka will have such a neat story to tell about her name, with the fairly obscure but fun and admirable George Bernard Shaw character as inspiration! Love it.

Our baby boy showed up a little early too. Hubby and I were finally able to agree on a name: Francesco Vittorio Ln (Incredibly long and complicated Italian ln).

Can anyone think of a cool nickname for Francesco?

I can see where the sound of Lydia can be very pretty, but it is forever branded by Pride and Prejudice for me. Is there any chance L names will eclipse J names? I still remember when all my favorite boy names started with J. Or was that just a popular name when everyone was being named Jennifer, Jessica, and Jonathon?

Lisa: congrats on little James Franklin!!!

EssBee: I always think of that series when I see the name Lila! I'd wondered whether or not anyone else made that connection!

Also, I'm 27 weeks pregnant with a baby girl and still undecided on a name, so I was happy to see you are the same way! I know 3 pregnant women, all with names chosen in advance, so at times I start to panic because I don't have the "perfect name" chosen yet. (The names they've chosen, BTW, are: Ad@lynn, K@ylynn, and Lucy.)

Our top choices (for now!) are Caroline and Chloe, but I'm pretty hesitant about Chloe, given its popularity. We'd have preferred Zoe, but it's our dog's name. (The rhyming isn't a problem.) Aside from the national rank, it's #19 in my home state. A bit more popular than I'd prefer... We have a 3-syllable (very Italian-sounding) last name, that begins with A and ends with "lone." My concern with Caroline is that, when combined with our last name, it may be difficult for people to say. Thoughts, anyone? Any suggestions are welcome!

Names we've already excluded, so you can get a sense of our "style," are:

Abigail (nn Abby - way too popular!)
Ainsley
Alexandra
Allison
Delaney
Juliana
Kate (love it as a nn, but not as a stand-alone name, and Katherine/Kathleen/Kaitlyn are NMS)
Kennedy (my husband isn't a big fan of surnames-as-first-names)
Michaela (too popular, with its various spellings)
Rebecca (our favorite name, but already taken by our niece)
Rhiannon
Samantha

My good friend's nephew is Frank (simple 5-letter, 3-syllable Italian last name) and he has a son named Francesco. They usually call him by his full name, but occasionally use Franco.

I've also heard of an older person with this name who went by Chez (I guess from the 'ces' part of Francesco?).

Congratulations on your son!

Errrr, previous post directed to Birgitte. My apologies.

Thanks, Opal! I never thought of Franco. We have been experimenting with Cesco, but not 100% happy with it.

Congrats to all the new babies and expected ones as well!
Danielle-how about Charlotte,Carla/Karla or Katra, or Gia/Gianna.

Danielle,

I wouldn't worry about being undecided at 27 weeks. I was still deciding up to the hospital and a few friends of mine took weeks after the birth to resolve their name discussion. Usually, however, it has involved issues between spouses and not indecision. I have always thought discussing names fun until it is time to actually name the child then it some how morphs into something different. I could see how the letters could come in generational waves. I wonder what letter would I pick if I could chose the next letter wave? I have always liked T names. . .

Lydia reminds me of Pride and Prejudice, too! The book, but even more the BBC version. I don't think I could like it now. On the other hand, I have always loved Leah. I think it has the prettiest sound. But Leah in the Bible never really resonated with me, so I would maybe hestitate before using it for a child. Are there any other Leah namesakes out there? In literature perhaps?

Would Rosco be too far out as a nickname for Francesco?

Birgitte: I once heard of a Francesco who went by "Chess."

congrats to the new moms and welcome babies!

as for those who still need to pick a name--despite much discussion, we didn"t have a name until we wanted to leave the hospital and they wouldn't let us leave w/o a name. I never thought I'd be that way. we know another couple this summer who did the same thing.

re L-names--my best friend in HS was the oldest of this sib set: L@aura, Lis@, Len@ and Lynn (ln beginning with L). I've always wondered what the elusive son would have been named!

"Caroline definitely seems WASPY to me. Note that the most popular reference when typing in 'Caroline' into Google is Caroline Kennedy. It's hard to go wrong with a Kennedy name."

Uh, Tirzah, the Kennedys are anything but WASP-y. Their non-WASPiness was a huge issue in 1960. I remember when Caroline Kennedy was born, the name Caroline was widely criticized as being old-fashioned to the point of mustiness. Back in those day the main association with Caroline was probably Caddie Woodlawn. :-)

Danielle, what about Carolina (Caroleena, as in Carolina Kostner, not Caroleyena as in the states)? Carolina would go with an Italian surname. Kostner is from the South Tyrol, currently part of Italy, where people speak both German and Italian, and Carolina would seem to suit both languages.

"I'm curious: do you think the massive population displacements caused by the Black Death had any causal relationship to the Great Vowel Shift, or its subsequent dissemination?"

Jennifer,'why?' is not always the most productive question when it comes to sound changes. Often sound changes occur when a population speaking one language shifts over to another, and the original language influences the new one. But that does not appear to be the case when it comes to the Great Vowel Shift. I have never seen the GVS ascribed to the Black Death, and I don't think that is likely to be the cause. Certainly the Black Death was also the scourge of the continent, and the vowels there retained their so-called continental values. Chaucer was a tot during the Great Pandemic of 1348-49. By the time he died at the very end of the century, the vowels had not yet started shifting. The GVS started in the 15th century, and the beginnings of the shift are visible in Malory. Shakespeare's language is well into the shift which isn't completed until after Pope and Swift--and in some parts of the English-speaking world (Ireland, for example), the shift was never completed. If you were to hear Shakespeare's plays properly pronounced (which you never do), you would think all the characters are from County Cork.

One thing that did happen in the 15th century was the end of the last vestiges of the everyday use of French in England. Into the 15th century French continued to be a/the epistolary language, but that petered out. All that was left was law French which continues to this day with terms like "voir dire." In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (where I grew up in a legal household), the criminal court is known as the Court of Oyer and Terminer, and the bailiff cries "Oyez! Oyez!" as he calls the court into session and heralds the entrance of the judge. Perhaps the end of the everyday use of French allowed the English vowels to slide away from the continental values, but that is a (wild) guess on my part.

another amy, I worked with sisters Linda & Lisa (last name started with L as well) and they had a younger sister whose name started with L also. I'm fairly certain that it was Laura, but I can't be sure. It was just the 3 of them - all girls, like the family you knew. The oldest was born in the late-1950s, the youngest in the early to mid-1960s.

don't forget lela (LEEE-la but also LIE-la)
thoughts on dalia / dahlia?

Birgitte - another option for Francesco might be Cesc, as in the footballer Cesc Fabregas. I think he pronounces it [Sesk]. I also like Franco a lot, and Chess is an interesting option.

(We were considering Francesca for our daughter born this summer, and had trouble coming up with acceptable nicknames - I did NOT want people calling her Fran!). She ended up as Juliette. :-) )

ah!! Caddie Woodlawn!! I had completely forgotten how much i loved those books! wonderful names and characters!

Another "L" name that hasn't been mentioned in this post: My mom's first name is Leta, which is Latin for "joy." I absolutely love it, but she's never gone by it. She's always used her middle name. It's a little close to Leda, as in Zeus and the swan thing, but I love it and would love to use it if we ever have a daughter. I have no idea where my grandmother got the name from, and I've never heard anyone else with it, just related names like Letitia. It definitely fits the trend, though.

Birgitte - re. Francesco: Chico, Cisco (SIS-co), Frankie, Chester, Che... I like Rosco and Chess, too. My husband's a Spaniard, so Franco doesn't have the same sort of ring for us. Or you could go off the mn with Vito.

Also, what state are you in? Just curious because Hurricane Ike totally broke my water at 4am, even though I'm 150 miles inland.

Miriam-

I thought the decline of French in the High Middle Ages / Early Enlightenment England was due to a great number of factors-- most prominently the fact that French was the language of the court, the educated classes, the aspiring classes, etc but then there was a series of protracted Anglo-French wars that made appearing too francophilic a bit treacherous. Some people even attributed the Great Vowel Shift to that-- a reactionary desire to appear "super-English" which the educated classes, who of course controlled the written word, took their learning of everyday spoken English to the extreme.

The GVS also occurred principally in southern England, no? The Black Death refers to bubonic plague, not necessarily the specific horrible visitation in the mid-14th century that killed off 1/3 of the population. England, as well as Europe, was visited by numerous plague epidemics throughout the time period in question. Often times this meant the countryside was more or less emptied out as households collapsed, villages became unsustainable and as survivors migrated to the cities-- principally London in the south. The last epidemic of plague in England was in the 1666-7 season (chronicled brilliantly by Daniel DeFoe)-- this is three centuries of devastation and terror we're talking about. It was the demographic equivalent of an earthquake. I thought it would have a dramatic influence on the evolution of everyday spoken English.

plus LAY-la (like the song)

Thought this group might be interested in these new baby names . . .
Our local hospital posts new baby pictures and first names on a section of its website, which I check regularly to satisfy my personal name curiosity. In the past week I've seen a boy named Trinity and a girl named Spencer.

To comment on the "L" theme, they also list new (girl) babies named Lia, Layla, and Lilah in the last couple of days.

Does anyone else think that L names on girls are "lovely" and on boy names are "lousy"? (I dont mean there are no nice boy names but just trying to be a bit punny there). I do enjoy the sounds of Laura, Lisa, Lindsey, and so on but find Lawrence, Lucas, and Lester to be not quite my style. Anyone else feel like this? Are there any other letters that do this? Maybe K for me and T is the opposite manner.

Danielle & EssBee - don't feel bad. I'm almost 37-1/2 weeks pregnant, gender unknown, and we are still trying to figure out names. I feel like we finally made some progress tonight coming up with a shortened list though.

We like to keep the baby's name secret (from family & friends) until birth, so I am hoping to get some unbiased input from the readers here. We have twin boys, almost 2 yrs, Hayden John & Koen David. Our last name is long, German, hard to spell & pronounce, beginning with a 'C'.

If we have another boy, our current top picks are (in no particular order):
Soren
Theron
Lucian
We are considering James or Jonas as MNs, but don't know that either really goes with Lucian. My twin boys' MNs are after family & a close friend, but we don't really have any other family/friend boy names to use as a MN this time around. We were thinking James at least ties in as a Biblical name, and we like it. Any other MN suggestions?

If we have a girl, our current top picks are (in no particular order):
Aleah
Lena
Sorenah
Rhianna
Selene
(hmmm...it just hit me that all but one of these end with the -a sound. I guess we are unintentionally following a trend there, like our boys' -n names)
My SIL is Carolyn, so we would like to use either Carolyn or Caroline as the MN for a girl. I lean towards Caroline b/c Carolyn seems a little choppy to me as a MN, but dh prefers Carolyn. Can we still say she is named after my SIL if we use Caroline?

Any input would be appreciated! Thanks.
-kristi

Brigitte- what about Coco as a nickname? Too girly?

Laura, I regularly read a blog www.dooce.com where the author Heather has a daughter named Leta, who appears frequently and hilariously. Totally recommended to those of you who are not too easily shockable...

Zoerhenne, an L name that is big in Europe for boys is Luca. I wonder what other male L names fit the trend?

Several names in this forum hit close to home. I recently picked the name Luna for one of my friend Laura's kittens. My sister Lena picked Coco for our family dog. My friend Rob picked the name Lotte for his dog. Perhaps a Lilo or Leona will pop into the circle soon.

Louis and Luca both popular in the UK.

OK, don't laugh. I am an author, true, but "real job" is a professional singer. Own/operate Karaoke Company in Colorado's ski areas (we cover large area -- Glenwood, Aspen, Vail, etc.) Been doing this for TWENTY YEARS. Do you realize how many Lolas I've met ... yes, because of the song! I've also met boys named (again, please don't laugh) LYNRD (you can sing "Sweet Home Alabama" now if you'd like!) Not Leonard, Lynrd -- I have seen three different variations of the spelling. SCARY. Leah (pronounced Lee ah) is a difficult one at my shows because I am a Star Wars fan and want to say "lay ah!" The name Lana (Lah nah) is also making a huge comeback! YESSS! Love it. S.S. VanLeeuwen

P.S. First name is Samantha, named for Samantha Eggars from an old TV show (think it was Maverick.) She also played Worf's human mother on Star Trek next generation. I apologize if I misspelled his name, I'm the Star Wars fan of the family. Three way split: brother is a trekkie and sister loves Doctor Who. I mentioned earlier that I am an author ... I just saw a book online writen by somebody named Taardis! Sis didn't think of that one!

Dear Kristi, I am an author and my baby name books are a MUST HAVE! I love the name Soren. It has a nice feel. I have a habit of putting my characters' middle names in the novels because it gives them more life. I recently wrote a novel about a family that had Norwegian heritage. The name Dyer, which is an old Viking name that means both "deer" and "dear," has a nice ring with Soren. Soren Dyer (It is traditionally pronounced Dih -ruh (Dira) but Die-er is accepted in this country and it sounds better.) If I can be of help, please let me know. I have to pick snazzy names for my books. Just to let you know, my leading lady in my trilogy is named McCartney Starr. Best wishes and take care of yourself. S. Susan VanLeeuwen.

Kristi, I think I have mentioned before that Lucian was my GGGgrandfather's name. I like it with James as mn. I think Soren works best with Jonas. For a girl, I like Rhianna Carolyn or Sorenah Caroline. Both are lovely! And yes I think you could still say that she is named after your SIL if you spell it differently.

Brigitte -- Congrats on Francesco Vittorio! I love the suggestion of Chess. That's a cool nn.

Danielle -- Even up to the birth, we were still considering between two names for a girl. Once our daughter was born, we chose. Don't worry that you don't have a name picked out yet.

Melanie -- I, too, find names and naming fascinating, but the whole process was turned on its head when it came time for *me* to choose a name for my own kid. So much harder.

Kristi -- I love Soren, and think it sounds great with James. Of the names you list for a girl, I like Lena best (in keeping with the topic of this post!), but that doesn't work as well with Carolyn/line as the mn. However, you could spin Lena as a tribute to a Carolyn, I think.

new baby alert:

Ors0n (no middle name)
little brother to F0x

Mother said she'll have to have at least one more to honor my suggestions of Raven or Dolphin (if you have a theme, might as well stick to it!)

I've always liked Lena and Leona. I was hesitant to use Lena as a given name rather than a nn (Helena, Magdalena) and didn't like any of the full names I came up with. Leona needs some better associations than Helmsley though.

I know a Luca and Lucian both born this past year.

There is a Lena in my son's preschool. Her mother is German and pronounces her name Layna. Her father is American and pronounces her name Leena. I love it that the parents say her name differently!

The 'L' name that has captured my attention right now is 'Lovisa'. It is the Swedish variant of Louisa, and is pronounced Loo-VEE-sah. I also like Louise or Louisa. Louise/Louisa seem spunky to me, while Lovisa is a bit softer.

My mother's mn is Louise, and I've considered Louisa/Lovisa/Louise in her honor. However, the apparent supersaturation of 'L' names on a world scale may put me off it.

Sarah-I must be missing something. How are Ors0n and F0x a theme. I understand that Fox and Dolphin and Raven are all animals, but what is Orson?

Orson is related to the ursa/ursine/ursula words that all have "bear" meanings.

Love your new screen name, LL, BDL, SO'M (etc.).

"If you were to hear Shakespeare's plays properly pronounced (which you never do), you would think all the characters are from County Cork." (Miriam)

I'm glad you brought it up; I have always found the cut-glass accent Shakepeare is always performed in to be jarring. The Globe Theatre in London actually put on a couple of plays in 2005 in the original accent, which they say is

"...somewhere between Australian, Cornish, Irish and Scottish, with a dash of Yorkshire - yet bizarrely, completely intelligible if you happen to come from North Carolina."

Having listened to a brief clip, I'm not convinced about the North Carolina bit, but here's a short article about it (audio clip included):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4694993.stm

The article also claims that there was no class distinction between accents 400 years ago - now I am dying to see one of these productions because I get so annoyed with the servant characters invariably being modern-day Cockneys while the other characters talk in old-fashioned RP!

Back on topic - I like a lot of these 'L' names; the trend holds true for me!

I know of many new Lea's (Lea with an accent on the e) - born to bilingual parents (English/French Canadian), a Leah , and a Lola all born this year.

Jennifer and Miriam, thank you so much for sending me on my latest web-mining trip to learn about The Great Vowel Shift. Fascinating stuff! Why, oh why am I not a philologist - in the sense of historical linguistics?? (And here I was thinking that word had gone out of use!) I love to learn about how words migrate through languages (Like John: Jean, Sean, Jan, Johan, Ioannes, Yochanan...) And how it gets interpreted and spelled in that language. For words would have had to be heard first and then spelled later, yeah?

I love it too when Eastern Betty and Miriam get talking about Hebrew.

Regarding Lilou, I didn't realize that this name had a 'following' in France, though it makes sense since the creator is a french man. I've seen it used here once or twice (in the US I mean) but it was spelled Leeloo. :-| I like Lilou better, though it kind of reminds me of the Disney movie character Lilo.

Regarding L names, I hope that Louisa gets picked up in the trend. As I've grown older I've really come to like that name and would love for it to get used. It would NEVER get used in my family (dh would never go for that!) but I'd name someone else's child that... :)

That was fascinating, Lucie!

Thanks, Jennifer! I should make a small correction, though: the accent is estimated to be 80% accurate, so perhaps "the original accent" is slightly misleading as it implies that we know for sure exactly how the Elizabethans spoke.

^^ oh, and I found your posts very interesting too!

There are parts of the rural Coastal North Carolina and Virginia where the longtime local (white) residents do have an accent that's sometimes described as Irish-sounding--not because they're from Irish ancestry, but because they have an accent that holds over some vowel sounds and other features from long back. But it's rapidly disappearing, already long gone in a lot of places, and most residents of North Carolina would find it just as odd to hear as any other American.

BTW, this is the accent Demi Moore was trying to approximate (with dubious success) in the movie "The Butcher's Wife." Her character is supposed to be from a lighthouse on an island off North Carolina, with little exposure beyond there.

Also, the original list of names at the top of the post all end in "a" or "ie." I feel almost shocked when I meet a little girl whose name ends in a consonant these days.

LL(BDL)-Thanks for the clarification on Orson. I knew I was missing something, sorry Sarah. And btw, I love "The Butcher's Wife" it's nice to know I'm not the only one who's ever seen it!

"I feel almost shocked when I meet a little girl whose name ends in a consonant these days." (Jane)

I take a certain pride in being the mother of one of those little girls whose name ends in a consonant. She definitely stands out from her friends, whose names almost all end in -a.

I can't believe I forgot Lindsay in my earlier list of girls I know whose names begin with L. One of my co-workers added one to his family this summer.

Elizabeth T: The Leena/Layna thing would drive me batty! I know parents who do the same thing with AHN-i-ka/ANN-i-ka.

Amy3 - can you tell what the other name you were considering for your daughter was? I know you have an Astrid, which is my favorite name and hopefully the name of my daughter someday. Just curious.

Lucie - that BBC article and audio clip were fascinating!

Can someone list a few more consonant ending names? I am drawing a blank at this time. Thanks!
Astrid, Charlotte, Iris, Ingrid, Brigitte,...

Zoerhenne--

Miriam :-), Susan/Suzanne, Carol/Carolyn/Caroline, Marilyn, Marian, Marlene/Kathleen/Darlene/Arlene, Ann, Lynn/Lynette, Judith, Sigrid/Gudrid/Gudrun. Rose, Louise, Sybil, Margaret, Janet, Jeanne, Catherine, Eileen, Gabrielle/Danielle, Edith, Eleanor, Blanche, Mildred, Gertrude, Elizabeth, etc., etc.

(Ending in a consonant by sound, not by spelling)

Just to add to the L names- my daughter is Leia (Lay-uh). She's 4, and we actually did meet 1 other Leia this past winter, at Disney World.

I posted a few weeks ago about a name for my baby. SHE was born about 2 weeks ago, and her name is Sadie. Apparently a name that's on the rise, but I've only met 2 others. I work with families with young children/newborn babies, and I see 20-30/week. so 2 out of that isn't bad. My Sadie looks like a Sadie to me already :). Congrats to all the other new parents!

Zoerhenne - I assume you mean female names ending in consonants? The first that come to mind for me are Helen, Elizabeth, Juliet, Edith, Meredith, Ruth, Brynn, Susan, Carys, Marin, Shannon, Raven, Harper, April, Marisol, Rachel, Hazel, Miriam, Jillian, Vivian, Lillian, Isador, Isabel, Gabrielle, Caitlin (all of the -bel(le) & -lyn names).

Caroline, Madeline, Josephine and the like do end in a vowel, but they don't have the -a or -ie/-ey ending or sound that most vowel-ending girl names do. Same for names like Eve, Maeve, Noelle, Alice, etc.

Eleanor, Allison, Hazel, Jean, Lauren, Laurel, Carolyn, Kathryn, Carol, Lynn, Ann, Soren, Averil, April, Evelyn, Gretchen, Susan, Jennifer, Karen, Marisol, Margaret, Elizabeth, Frances

Beth, Belle, Coral, Candace, Esther, Faith, Grace, Heather, Jasmine, Jade, Lane, Miriam, Opal, Reese, Star,

When we were picking the name for our DD born 18 months ago, we had an "L" name and her current name which starts with "T". I wanted the "L" name, but DH preferred the "T" so we said the next girl would be "L".
It's not on that list of top Austrian names, but it's VERY close and I wish we had used it last time instead of waiting. We're expecting again, (but it might be a boy) and I'm not sure I want to use a name that will sound just like every other little "L" girl her age. Drat. Our timing sucks!
Also, I love the name Lydia and think it's long overdue for a comeback, but cannot use it becuase DH detests it.

Lucie (and others)--

If you are interested in learning more about the historical pronunciations of English, may I recommend checking out the Chaucer Studio recordings available from Brigham Young University at nominal cost:

http://creativeworks.byu.edu/chaucer/

I begged and pleaded for them to do some Shakespeare, and finally they did. All of the recordings are of course our best shot at scholarly re-creations. The recordings cover a lot more than Chaucer. The Shakespeare is a 2-CD set for $15.

I keep forgetting to mention that the little girls I know in the five and under set include Lela(h?) Zoe, Lily, Elisabeth Adelaide, Elizabeth, Anneliese, Francesca, Emma Paulina Jacqueline, and Isabelle Emma. Some of them have Dutch parents, some American of assorted ethnic backgrounds.

Baby Watch!

Japanese immigrant model (aspiring to be a paediatrician) has had twin girls: Yuna & Momo

I think Yuna means "Hibiscus flower" and Momo means peaches? I could be wrong--she had a strong accent.

Wow, all the baby alerts I give seem to be of multiples...

Yuna is pretty. I kind of like it.

I like everyone's list of consonant-ending girl's names. (Although names like Kathryn and Kaitlyn are always shortened to Kathy and Katie, which gets back to that trendy ie/y sound.)

I'm wondering now how many girl's names in the top hundred US names end in a/ah or ie/y and how many are consonants?

If you counted, you'd almost have to keep a third category for names like Maddylyn which are sure to be shortened to Maddy. Maybe that would make it uncountable...

Jane, I don't think that among today's kids that most or all Catherines & Caitlins & Madelines would become Cathy or Kate or Katie or Maddie. In fact, most of the little ones with those names that I know go by their full, given names, even those who have been in school several years.

We can't rule out all names with nn potential. That would get quite lengthy depending on who deems what nicknames inevitable per full/given name. For instance, Ruth could become Ruthie, Charlotte could become Charlie or Lottie, Isabel could become Izzy, and so on & so forth.

i could use a little help. baby number two (a girl) is due in a few months and i'm feeling stumped. i had a few names on my list: jane, eleanor, violet -- but recently (as in the past week) women in our church group have named their babies jane, eleanor, and violet. i'm not trying to have the only daughter with a certain name, but i don't want to look like a copycat either. any suggestions? i want something classic, feminine, and off the top ten list. [her older brother is henry dan.]

thanks baby name wizards!

@jes

I'll suggest: Cecilia, Hazel, Stella, Amelia, Iris, Annabel, Eveline, maybe Vivien?

I would put all of these in the same style category as Jane, Eleanor, and Violet.

@jes, how about Louisa (to continue with the L theme)? Someone mentioned Dahlia upthread, which I have to say I quite enjoy...

Charlotte, Clara, Anna?

Oh, Joni, I hope Louisa (and Louise) don't become newly popular, as they are two of my favorites, along with Lydia (a favorite on this board that seems primed for a surge).

What's everyone's thought on "S" as a name-starting letter? In my totally biased and un-random survey, the "S" section of my cell phone is the largest of any letter in my speed-dial saved numbers. Though if I read Name Voyager correctly "S" was at its peak of popularity in the '60s.

Jes, I'd suggest Frances, Alice, Margaret, and Ruby

Jes-
Here's a few possibilities that I think have the same feel
Claire
Eloise or Elise
Georgia
Pearl
Margot
Penelope
Celeste
Abigail
Agatha
Simone

Good luck!

Interesting sibset I met this week
Older daughters: Kaelynne and Rylee (I'd say about 8 and 6)
younger brother: Jacob, 3.

If you like Jane, Eleanor, Violet, maybe also try Joanna, Helen, Harriet, Flora, Iris, Ada, Clementine, Nell, Bess, Audrey, Agatha, Louise...

Ooh, I like the suggestions of Frances and Alice very much, too!

Kristi--my vote is for Soren and Lena. They are the easiest to pronounce (in my book) and that value goes a long way in a person's life.

Jess--I like Hadley, Lotta, and Ruby. Each very different, yet quite feminine, and definitely not over-used.

Thanks everyone for the consonant ending sound girl names. I guess my brain was just not "doing names" at that time because most of those names I said "of course" to when I read them.
Coll-As far as the "S" names, I am an S child of the sixties and was in fact going to suggest my name to Jes.
Jes-Here are some name choices for you that haven't already been suggested.
Valerie
Lucille
Beatrice
Sophie
Stacey
Adrienne
Jacqueline
Olivia
Molly

Congratulations to all the new parents and thanks for the updates!

Beth-Let's face it: Caroline is just about the perfect name.

Can someone explain the geographic name flow? Do names popular in Europe always make their way to the states? About how long does it take? I know names popular in England and Australia often make their way here in short order, but it doesn't always seem to be the case.
I've been surprised, for example, that Jemma/Gemma hasn't taken off here.

We know many Lilys, but most are close to preschool age. We also know lots of Ellas and Ellies, but again, most are a bit older.

I adore both Lucia (a favorite on this board) and Lucy. My mom was always desperate to have a grandaughter named Liesel, so if anyone wants to "adopt," that one, it would make my mom happy!
We do know a little Leah, but not an overwhelming number of other "L's" as of yet.

I also know sisters named Natalia and Eleni, who are often called Talia and Leni.

Finally, I just had to share that Jack has a new little friend named Madison, but he just can't get her name right-he's forever calling her Adamis. He never reverses words like that, so I've been tickled by it.

I am finally getting around to responding to Jennifer's post (9/21--11:01 pm) which she addressed to me:

First of all, asking why the GVS occurred is not a productive question. Really nobody knows, anymore than anyone knows why there is a major vowel shift going on at this time in white speakers in the Great Lakes region. This shift is not taking place in adjacent parts of Canada nor in the African-American community in the region. We know it is taking place and we can describe it (and frankly the sound of it drives me up the wall), but why, who knows.

I took a look at what is online concerning the GVS, and I was shocked to see how much of what is out there is erroneous nonsense. Some sites say it happened in 1400 (like everyone went to bed speaking English one way and woke up the next morning speaking another way), others say 1350-1450 or 1400-1450 or, or, or. Actually the core of the GVS occurred from the 15th century to the 18th century. There are other vowel changes that occurred before the 15th century, even as early as the 12th, but the changes which are subsumed under the rubric GVS can be dated to the 15th-18th centuries. GVS separates Middle English from Modern English, not Old English from Middle English. Some sites say that the GVS swept Europe at the same time, but no. If it did we wouldn't be calling the pre-shifted vowels "continental." Unfortunately the reputable sites (Harvard, Furman) are rather brief. The GVS took place in stages and its effects were not uniform. Ireland never finished the shift, and Scotland really didn't participate. That's why Scots English has the pronunciation 'doon' for 'down.'

Now for the Black Death. First of all, the term Black Death is generally applied only to the Great Pandemic of 1348-49. Bubonic plague is one of three forms of plague (the others are pneumonic and septicemic). Thus Black Death and bubonic plague are not synonyms. You are right--plague years occurred periodically up until the Great Fire of London, but they never reached the disastrous level of 1348-49 again. My sense was it was like the summer outbreaks of polio before the polio vaccine--scary and causing a cessation of normal activities which involved large groups of people--but not devastating.

As for population shifts due to the Black Death, yes, sometimes entire villages were wiped out, as were crowded urban neighborhoods. This had the effect of causing a shortage of labor, raising the prestige of English-speaking peasants to some extent and certainly emboldening them (see the Peasants' Revolt of 1381). But the main shift of population from the rural areas to the cities occurred following the dissolution of the monasteries by Henry VIII and particularly following the passage of the enclosure laws in the 18th century which threw large numbers of agricultural workers off the land. This resulted in a large underclass in the cities, development of (more or less) organized crime, and the founding of the first police force by Sir Robert Peel. (See the Beggar's Opera.)

Because English was a substratum language from the period immediately following the Conquest to roughly the beginning of the 14th century. there was no English-speaking educated elite to put the brakes on English linguistic change during this period. Thus we have massive changes in phonology, morphology, syntax, and lexicon during this period. For example, English changed from a synthetic to analytic language. The beginning of the end for Anglo-Norman as the superstratum language came with the loss of Normandy by King John in 1204. By 1250 the elite were increasingly able to speak English, and it is after 1250 that Norman French lexical borrowings mushroomed. The Hundred Years War (1337-1453) led French to be stigmatized as the language of the enemy, but at the same time it still had prestige as the language of culture and fashion. This ambiguity toward France and the French continues to this day. French took over from Latin as the lingua franca which all Europeans with cultural pretensions had to learn and maintained this position until the very recent hegemony of English. These and other social, political and economic factors led the English upper classes back to the English language, but there is no persuasive case to be made (not IMO nor have I seen such) that this was the cause of the GVS, since the process of the resurrection of English was basically complete before the shift got under way in earnest.

Miriam- Fascinating as always! Really, you should create a blog or website on this, we'd all love it I'm sure!! Two follow-up questions for you. Is Scottish actually pretty close to Middle English then? Or just certain words? And what are the sounds that are changing right now around the Great Lakes? While you say the sound bothers you, it must be interesting to be able to see such a vowel shift in action!

Cara- Leia and Sadie are a great sibset, I love that!

In other news, I was telling my boyfriend about some of the things we have been discussing and though he told me he was not interested in seeing the bnw book, I brought it out and he was totally pulled in! He can be very opinionated and so I learned that he is against Kre8tive spellings (rather vehemently) as well as traditional boys names being given to girls and changing them meaning. He also rejected my currect favorite name, Alice (::sigh::).

Laura, I also got a lecture on how Welsh isn't Celtic that's why they always make the distinction of being Welshmen (didn't seem to matter that it is sort of a combination category, but he wanted you to know, hehe;). Anyway, it was a lot of fun to get him talking about it (though I don't think he'll be a regular).

My hubby loved Roscoe for a nn (huge Dukes of Hazzard fan).

I was nowhere near any State when Ike hit, I am still in Norway. But I think my pineapple/papaya diet made me go into labor 10 days before term (on purpose).

I've always loved having an unusal name, and I'm not thrilled that out and about I often hear it called out, and it's a parent calling after their toddler! However, I always hated the biblical story that went along with Leah, hated going to synagogue on the day that Torah portion was read, and will never, ever name any daughter of mine Rachel! And since I was born the year before the first Star Wars movie came out, I spent a lot of time in school (and I mean kindergarten through college) getting called Princess! Although technically, her name is spelled differently (Leia). I suppose now that would be more of an issue if you named your child Amidala. I can't think of any character instances in literature, but there is a famous Hebrew poet named Leah Goldberg.

Kristi: while I like Soren, I think it sounds too much like Koen and so maybe Theron or Lucian would be better. Lucian is pron Lu-shen, is that right? I think it sounds fine with James or Jonas as MN. For the girls' names, Aleah and Rhianna strike me as very trendy, almost too light for your boys' names. Maybe it is just a pet peeve of mine when that happens in one family, as if boys/men have to be serious and girls/women can just be fun.

KRC -- The other name we were considering is Eily. Although I still think it's a nice name, I'm very glad we didn't choose it. Despite being an NE, I was unaware of the many very similar currently popular girls' names. My reservation about it then was that it would be mistaken for Eileen, a name I truly don't like.

That said, Astrid is routinely misheard (most common being Ashley) so I guess I didn't win on that one anyway!

@Maggie, I don't think the "L"- name trend is something you have to fret about immediately. Consider this post just a very early warning of future naming events to come. If you love Lydia, go for it! My instinct is it will be at least 5 years until Lydia becomes too played out (ie. in the top 50).

@J&H's mom, that's strong praise for the name Caroline. If you had a girl, that's what you'd name her? I want to hear from more of you about what you'd name a child right now.

Hi - I posted a few weeks ago about names for our baby girl #2 - older daughter is Eliza. Names we were thinking about were names like Ruby, Tillie, Flora, etc.

Now my husband has brought up the possibility of naming our daughter after my beloved grandmother who passed away a few years ago, which I love the idea of, but I would like some feedback on the name: Polly. He likes it and I can't decide if I like it or if it sounds hopelessly old fashioned. It seems that absolutely no one is using this name these days.

Thanks!

Amelia-- "Polly" is a wonderful name/nickname with a rich history from the Middle Ages onward.

Both Polly and Molly started out as nicknames for "Mary". There was "Mally" and "Molly" and rhyming "Polly", etc.

I also think Polly is delightful and compatible with the equally charming and nostalgic "Eliza"-- you'd have a great sib-set.

You have the option of bestowing the name "Mary", (a classic beauty of a name if there ever was one), and using Polly as a nickname...

Curious to know if Polly was your grandmother's full name or nickname?

Or, if you wanted a formal name that "sounded" closer to Polly, there are several choices. I know of a stylish woman who named her little girl "Paulina" after a beloved grandmother, and the child is called Polly. Bothers are Jack and Andrew...

That's "brothers", NOT bothers!

Amy3 - Interesting! I don't think I've ever heard the name Eily. I like it, but agree that is is very close to a lot of popular names for little girls today.

Amelia, I kind of like Polly. It is sweet for a little girl; I would only wonder if it ages well. But I am always in favor of names honoring beloved family members.

Amelia - Polly is adorable! Molly is currently popular, so why not Polly?

sib set in my son's hockey class: John (6yrs old) and Sean (4 yrs old) They have a younger brother too but I didn't get his name. John and Sean!

Consonant ending names - for girls a lot of surname/first names end in consonants - like my own dd - Campbell

I just had a baby boy, but if he had been a girl, he would have been Caroline Miller - called Millie.

I have also noticed that L is also a popular letter within names, even if it is not the first letter - Molly, all -ella names, etc

I like Polly, although in England she'd be driven mad by the nursery rhymes Polly Put the Kettle on and Miss Polly Had a Dolly. There's a leading political journalist here called Polly Toynbee.

It's quite unusual for little girls I think, although Molly and Poppy are popular.

FYI, Polly Pockets is a super popular toy for little girls.

Miriam--

It might not be a productive question, but it's an interesting one. Historical linguistics, in my passing acquaintance with it, is full of such riddles-- namely, what are the forces that cause langauges to evolve?

I think that the decline of French during the Anglo-French wars, the repeated epidemics of plague, and the GVS were all more or less contemporaneous. Who's to say which direction causality flowed?

I will take issue with the notion that only the mid-14th c epidemic of plague was significant. Plague is a dreadful disease. It's still around, in Mongolia and-- surprise!-- Colorado (the US has 10-20 cases a year. Breaking the news to patients is, needless to say, interesting). Although the organism is quite sensitive to antibiotics, the mortality rate in untreated cases is quite high-- 50%! There's a debate going on in infectious diseases circles as to whether or not people develop immunity to plague after repeated exposure, which is an interesting question historically.

Why? England was immunologically naive to plague before the epidemic swept in from Asia across Europe. It absolutely decimated the population-- 1/3 died. As I mentioned before, this had extraordinary effect on the peasant population-- it caused them to move, to remarry, to find new trades, and to make urban living viable. Most importantly, however, it made life BETTER for everyone. What? Better? Well, the land was overburdened. Crop returns were diminishing. People existed on a diet of barley beer and coarse bread-- they were, in short completely malnourished. After the plague there was some demographic breathing room; people ate more and ate better, they had more land and could devote fields to pasturing (this is when sheep husbandry started to take off, which dramatically changed the face of English agriculture). Most importantly, they had excess that they could sell at market for material goods. This, in addition to people abandoning ruined villages and the like, meant people moved around.

Plague kept coming though. Because the population was less dense it never took off to the extent that it did before, but it was certainly nothing like polio. The attack rates were high, as were the mortality rates. it's theorized that there might be some historical immunological protection (everyone alive in, say, 1550 was descended from a *survivor* of the 1340s epidemic, so perhaps they inherited a genetic predisposition to fighting it off), and that much better nutrition helped keep the plague from the horrible levels of the 14th c.

Finally, for naming experts-- there was a cadre of saints called the "Fourteen Holy Helpers" who were called upon for protection from pestilence. I've always wondered if there was a spike in interest in their names as well. What do you all think?

Agathius (Acacius)
Barbara
Blaise
Catherine
Christopher
Cyriacus
Denis
Erasmus E
Eustace
George
Giles
Margaret
Pantaleon
Vitus (Guy)

Amy3,
The only time I've seen the name Eily used was in Kate Douglas Wiggin's charming book, The Bird's Christmas Carol...a must read in our house each December.
I think it could be used as a nickname for Reily or Reilly.

Posted too quickly. I don't know where my brain is today.
I meant to say that Eily was the name of one of the large brood of Ruggles' who lived in a cottage in the alley behind the Bird's mansion. The children were a source of entertainment and amusement for the Bird's daughter, Carol.
The name Carol is not much in favor these days, but I've always liked it because of the child in this story, whose mother chose her name because she was born on Christmas morning. Mrs. Bird was lying in her bed recovering from the birth and listening to the voices of the boy's choir singing carols in the church next door when she suddenly realized she had found the perfect name for her Christmas child.
An oft discussed topic on this site is how important it is for one's child to have a name with some meaning. I think this choice was perfect.

Baby name alert: I overheard a 20-something bookstore clerk talking about his new neice... Magdalen. Although the way he said it made me wonder if it is Magdelyn. hmmm

I don't much care for the name Polly I think it comes off as dated butthat is only my opinion. I do like Molly though. How about Penelope? Could Polly be derived as a nn?

As far as naming a child for myself right this very minute-that would be tough and would I consider dh's opinion or not.
Probably Brian for boy and Kimberley for girl.

"Who's to say which direction causality flowed?"

Answer: no one. The question of why a particular sound change took place is not a productive one, because in the overwhelming majority of cases we have no way to determine an answer. I have never seen a reputable philologist argue that the plague (in all its manifestations) triggered the GVS or even was a contributing cause. There is a major vowel shift going on right this minute in the cities of the upper midwest (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5220090). It can be described, but no one can say why this is taking place. How the sounds are changing in regard to the functions of the organs of articulation, yes, why, no....

"I think that the decline of French during the Anglo-French wars, the repeated epidemics of plague, and the GVS were all more or less contemporaneous."

Jennifer, these events are not all contemporaneous. The shift to English among the elites began even before the loss of Normandy in 1204. It was recorded that the wife of one of Becket's assassins called out to warn her husband of imminent danger--in English. This, of course was during the twelfth century reign of Henry II, and it demonstrates that an Anglo-Norman aristocratic woman in a moment of panic used English and obviously expected her Anglo-Norman aristocratic husband to be able to understand it and act on it immediately. By 1250 the English elite was primarily English-speaking. The 13th century saw the preparation of textbooks to teach young upper-crusters French as a school language. Clearly French was no longer their cradle tongue. So 1250, when Anglo-Norman was already in sharp decline, is a century earlier than the Great Pandemic and two centuries earlier than the appearance of the first stages of the GVS. I myself wouldn't call these events contemporaneous.

I never said that the plague wasn't horrid, but the great demographic dislocations are associated with the pandemic of 1348-49, not with the repeated lesser outbreaks, horrible as they were. Read Defoe's Journal of the Plague Year to get an idea of the great and final outbreak of plague in 1665. It should be noted that this work is fiction and appeared in 1722, well after the event it purports to describe, but it does give a sense of the impact of the plague in an urban setting. It should be remembered that while entire rural villages were wiped out in 1348-49, that epidemic and subsequent outbreaks were also hard on the urban populace.

You are certainly right that the massive population loss of 1348-49 improved the lot of the survivors. The 2/3 who survived inherited the stuff of the 1/3 who died right off the bat. Chaucer's elders, for example, did use their windfall to move to London and set up as vintners. They were able to educate their son and secure him a career as one of the earliest full-time bureaucrats in England, definite upward mobility in part due to the plague. As I said before, the deaths of so many agricultural laborers raised the value of the remaining laborers who were able to demand (and receive) higher wages in spite of efforts to enact and enforce wage caps.

The improvement of the circumstances of the lower and middle classes increased the prestige of English, leading for example, to the flowering of Middle English literature in the last quarter of the 14th century. Chaucer knew he was taking a risk for posterity by writing in English, but his friend Gower hedged his bets by writing three long works, one each in French, Latin, and English. Chaucer's English works were widely read both by the court and by the middle class. This period also sees the beginning of learned and technical writing in English as opposed to Latin. Chaucer's Treatise on the Astrolabe is the first known piece of tech writing in English. Chaucer translated it for his little son Lewis who was hopping up and down to learn how to use the gizmo, but who was not a sufficiently good Latin student to read the instructions.

So events like the plague and the Hundred Years War raised the prestige of English which began to be used for purposes previously handled in Latin and French, but it can't really be said that the prestige of French was significantly lowered. French was still a necessary second-language acquisition for all those with social and cultural pretensions (see Chaucer's Prioress, Madame Eglantine, and her bad school French, the French of Stratford-at-Bow, because she didn't know the French of Paris). The use of French as a lingua franca in Europe and areas colonized by Europe continued up until very recently and still continues (the announcements at the Beijing Olympics were made in French, English, and Mandarin). And certainly at least until my generation French was considered a necessary accomplishment for daughters whom their parents wanted to see "finished." My parents did not send me to finishing school in Switzerland to get good French, as did the parents of some of the girls I grew up with, but they did engage a French tutor for that purpose.

But none of this can be pointed to with any degree of certainty (or even probability) as the cause (or a cause) of the GVS.

Polly is one of those rarer names I wish more people used. It's ready for a big revival. I think immediately of English actress Polly Walker who was riveting as Atia of the Julii in the BBC miniseries "Rome."

But like Molly, Kate, Sally, and Sadie, (& boys' names Sam, Max, Jack, Charlie) I tend to think of it as more of a nickname and not as much a proper firstname.

KRC and cc -- I actually knew a girl named Eily growing up. I've never heard it on anyone (real or fictional) since.

Amelia, I like Polly and don't think it is out of place with today's trends (especially in England - not sure where you're from? The names you like make me think England rather than the US). There was that rom-com "Along Came Polly" with Jennifer Aniston a couple of years ago, where she played a free-spirited, fun character. I also like the fact that, like Eliza, it originated as a nickname for a very traditional name but can stand on its own.

Miriam, I am really enjoying your and Jennifer's exchange! I have a question, although please don't feel obliged to type out a very long post; I know you're not my personal linguistics teacher ;)

I had somehow got the idea that sound shifts started because of the stigmatisation of the first vowel in the chain. For example, the way that an accent pronounces a particular vowel might become associated with an undesirable social group. So, the people with this accent who want to distinguish themselves begin to pronounce that vowel in a different way in an attempt to avoid the "vulgar" or "stuffy" pronunciation. Then the newer pronunciation might sound increasingly similar to another existing vowel, so that vowel in turn is pronounced differently, perhaps becoming more closed/open. And so on, like a chain of dominoes.

Is there any truth in this, or have I got mixed up? I'm not sure how generally you were speaking when you said that it was near impossible to pinpoint the cause of a vowel shift - whether you were referring to particular tangible causes, or not. (I studied some linguistics at university, but wasn't especially good at it and it's a bit hazy now.)

At the park today met a Shalynn (about 6) and her sister Vera (about 2) with their Grandma. "Shala" sounds really sweet when you hear it spoken out loud. Grandma also said "Sholly" a couple of times which sounded pretty darn cute.

Shalynn with the "Lynn" at the end fits right in with all the Kalynns and Evalynns and Shilos and Sashas. Not at all my cup of tea but it was interesting..wonder if they made it up. I haven't heard that one before.

Thanks everyone on the input on Polly! I do think that Eliza and Polly go well together. My grandmother's given name was Mary, but we would be likely to just go with Polly (though the Penelope, nn Polly, idea is intriguing).

We are in California.

Lucie--

Certainly major sound changes like the GVS and Grimm's law that involve changes in a number of sounds (vowels or consonants) take place in stages and certainly one change can lead to another. But where it gets iffy is the idea that the first change occurs because a certain sound is stigmatized by being associated with a low prestige group. That could happen, I suppose, but I would not go so far as to say that's always/often--or even ever--the trigger. You could turn it around and say that the first change is started because a group with prestige has a certain pronunciation and is emulated by people lower on the totem pole. Another possible trigger--contact with another language. There are a lot of possibilities, and to my knowledge it is not possible to pinpoint causes for particular sound changes. No one knows what happened to get the Grimm's law changes started.

It's a similar story as to the question about how human language originated, what were the first human languages like. A number of theories were proposed like the Yo-heave-ho theory (that language began as grunts used to co-ordinate group work effort) or the bow-wow theory(humans imitated animal cries). The very names of the theories indicate how pointless it is to speculate in the face of zero evidence. There are no known "primitive" languages. Every known language, living or dead, is well developed and highly complex. In fact older languages (like reconstructed Proto-Indo-European) can be more complex than their descendants. What sort of language Lucy and friends in the Rift Valley used, if any, we don't know and can't know. So the question of language origins has been tabled. Even the proponents of the highly controversial theory that claims "Nostratic" as the pre-historic (Paleolithic/Mesolithic) progenitor of major current language groups (Indo-European, Finno-Ugaric and others) do not extend their claims to the origin of human language.

So linguists and philologists generally spend their time on what and how and where and who, but not why.

Thank you very much for your quick reply, Miriam! You've cleared up something I've been wondering about for a while. Although that said, it just gets curiouser and curiouser!

I am soooo busy and haven't been here in weeks, so I'll catch up later. (Til then--congrats to whoever's expecting and whoever's expectations have been fulfilled, thank you to everyone who's provided wonderful insights, and, to be on topic, I think L names are beautiful and really like Linnea and Laurel in particular.)

But I had to share these links. Something we all know about:

http://www.babble.com/33-Worst-Celebrity-Baby-Names-Cautionary-tales-fro...

and this, a high school debate tournament roster. (There's a kid named SummerStar!):

http://victorybrief sdaily.com/ 2008/09/21/ field-report- yale-2/

Guest-I sort of let go of a hypothetical Caroline when we went with Jack for our son (just too Kennedy-esque, even for a loyal Blue state girl).
I truly do love everything about it, though.
I think I'd go with Julia or Georgia if I was somehow having a girl tomorrow.
It would be a very hard choice, though.
I also have a soft spot for Kate, no matter how many I meet.

On Polly-I think it's a very sweet match for Eliza. I suppose you could also do something like Paulette or Pauline.
I happen to have a close friend in her thirties named Polly (sisters are Nancy and Julie), so I attach it to a different era than other posters.
She wasn't nuts about her name growing up, but obviously, she was just ahead of her time!
I do love, love Penelope, too.

J&H's mom, like you, I knew a Polly growing up, and while I personally don't have anything against the name, I know she didn't much care for it, especially always hearing "Polly want a cracker?"

I like the idea of Penelope nn Polly. Lots of options for her if she herself decides she doesn't like Polly.

I love Polly. It's sweet but not too frilliana. And everyone knows how to spell and pronounce it, yet it has so far escaped massive popularity. I also kind of like the nursery rhyme "Polly put the kettle on." I read once that a father made up the rhyme because he was so taken by his clever daughters, who, when they didn't want