The Call of the Wild A
When it comes to baby name fashion, the last really are first. Name endings carry a disproportionate power in a name's style and impact. That's the secret behind Angelina Jolie's impact on baby names -- discussed here in our X & O roundup.
Today's baby name news tells a similar tale. Baby name critics preparing to pounce on the latest "weird" celebrity name: Zuma, born to musicians Gwen Stefani and Gavin Rossdale. Yes, it's an extremely unusual name. (Zuma is a famous Malibu beach, which gives the name a unique resonance to SoCal natives like Ms. Stefani. Think of a surfer named Zuma, and the name might start to make more sense to you.) But I suspect that the real key to the raised eyebrows isn't that the name is so uncommon; it's that Zuma is a boy.
English doesn't have gendered word endings -- in theory. In practice, though, we hew to the Romance-language standard that marks -a as feminine and -o as masculine. You see it in baby names, and even in product names. We hear the underlying feminine/masculine stereotypes: an -a ending "softens" a name, while an -o makes it "energetic."
That's not to say we never cross the lines. But usually, when it comes to gender-bending, we're more willing to make our girls boyish than our boys girlish. Think of the title character of the film Juno. The feminine -o was used to emphasic her individualistic strength. The -o of Shiloh, similarly, made that name a celebrity style smash.
In fact, there are signs of life for boys ending in -a, too. Joshua has become the most popular -a boy in American history, swamping the previous champion Ira. Luca is another fast rising name (especially among Portuguese speakers -- it's a top-100 name in Rhode Island, with its huge Portuguese and Brazilian population.) But they're still the exception, which means that -a names can still surprise. The names that really point the way toward Zuma are two that, like Zuma, found their way to the nursery from non-traditional sources:
Dakota is one of the names for a large Sioux ethnic group from the Northern plains. It became a popular American boy's name in the 1990s.
Koda is the name of an orphaned Alaskan bear cub in the 2003 animated film Brother Bear, and made a modest splash as a boy's name in 2004. It was presumably inspired by the Kodiak bears of Alaska.
Names like Dakota, Koda and Zuma are very deliberate steps away from European naming traditions. Their style depends on an image of rugged, wild freedom. The easiest way to shed centuries of Western Civilization is to choose the ending that most defies that tradition: the masculine a.
Comments
Not that they would ever be wildly popular but I have a few -a ending boy's names on my list.
Indra
Keita
Nuada
Shea
Grey (by sound, if not spelling)
You amaze me, Laura! This post reads as though you wrote it weeks ago, with research to boot. Did Gwen Stefani call you last month and leak her secret name? Thanks for another thought-provoking post.
I have a few masculine -a names on my list (Luca for instance) but I notice that many Hebrew male names ending in the -a sound are "protected" from looking feminine by a final (silent) -h in their anglicized form.
For example:
Joah
Elijah
Jonah
Noah
What about Sacha/Sasha? I know it's getting co-opted by the ladies, but I read about two babies (one male, one female) with this name in my college alumni mag recently. I don't know a lot about Russian names, but it seems like it's not that unusual for men's names or nicknames to end with "a" (Vanya, Nikita, Sasha).
Another name I thought of was Asa, which, interestingly enough, had been brought up about a week ago--I'm pretty sure the prospective mother was asking if it sounded too feminine, so that seems to fit right in with this topic as well.
Laura, Not sure how you are defining "western civilization" and "European tradition." There are many "ending in A sound" boy names in the Hebrew Bible aka Old Testament. You mentioned Joshua, a very popular name and Moonie lists several others above. Isaiah and Ezra are additional examples. Is the silent H ending protecting from being girlie or a hold over from the Hebrew spelling?
End with "S" remains by prediction for the next boy naming trend.
Seamus
Jonas
Marcus
Lucus
Atticus
Phinneaus
I must admit that I find Zuma to be a tad feminine, but I definitely think it's one that I can grow to appreciate for a boy.
However, I do have a few on my own list that are -a enders.
Ezra
Asa
Micah
Jeremiah
Jonah
Zuma seems so feminine to me, and I think of the other A-ending boy names as being popular because they give the name a gentle, sensitive sound.
Following with Nesta makes it seem even more feminine.
I think the -uma makes Zuma appear more feminine.
I know a little (8 mo?) boy named Rio Nesta. Somehow, I have always found his name to be a bit jarring. Maybe the -o -a are the key to my ipmression.
Not having the beach association (since I live in Canada), my association with Zuma is an extremely addictive Flash computer game.
I'm glad the name has a lot of meaning for Gwen and Gavin, however to me it just doesn't flow with Kingston, and I'm one of those people who's big on flow. It's interesting that Laura is pointing to the somewhat rebellious nature of the -a ending in Zuma, when Kingston fits in very nicely with the enormous -n ending trend.
I think the Biblical a (or ah) ending names sound masculine to us because they ARE Biblical names.
For instance Micah -- masculine name (although now it is often used as a girl name). Why? because it is Biblical.
But then consider Luca -- until ER came along, I am willing to bet that most WASP americans would have considered it a "girl" name... in fact my friend who has a son named Luca was discouraged from using it because it sounded feminine.
If Gwen had found Zuma in the Bible, and told everyone it was a Biblical name, no one would have blinked an eye because everyone subconsiously knows the Biblical a ending masculine name rule.
(and yeah, this Southern Californian who has been to Zuma beach thinks it sounds feminine too...)
Sasha, Ezra and Joshua are certainly common enough...and a lot of Indian boys' names end in A (I've known little boys called Kushagra and Hemanya). So Zuma doesn't raise any eyebrows as a boy's name for me--but then, I can see Malibu whenever I drive past the beach.... ;)
And Nesta IS a girl's name in Wales, but (as pointed out last thread) it was also the birth name of Bob Marley (Nesta Robert Marley)--so it's got a history as a male name, too.
Isaiah is a popular boys' name too these days. In theory it sounds very feminine though.
See, I thought Juno was named for the Roman goddess of motherhood (since the movie's about a pregnancy) rather than for its sound. I could see, though, how the movie's popularity might contribute to the popularity of -o/-oh endings for girls.
I think popular names ending in "uh" (a/ah/etc.) cross gender lines too frequently to truly suggest it's traditionally feminine. I'd say more gender ambiguous, but often feminine. I can't identify why Andrea or Elka are definitely feminine to me, while Ezra and Kona are not. Nor why Dana is gender neutral-sounding, but Donna, is not. (If the linguists out there have some hints, I'd love some insight.)
In contrast, the ending sound that has become exclusively feminine to most ears is "ee." Kylee, Mylie, Sandy, Lesley, Addy, or Ashley may have all been boys seventy years ago; but by modern standards, none of these names sound gender neutral let alone masculine. Cody is the only exception I can think of (though this name strikes me as permanently boyish, not mannish at all). Are there other male names ending in "ee" that still sound masculine to our modern ears?
I think Gwen Stefani was having a delivery room surprise (but not positive). I wonder if the name Zuma was set to be used on either a boy or girl.
Aren't there a lot of traditionally Russian and Eastern European Boys names that have a feminine feel to the West?
Like:
Dimitri
Alexi
Sacha
For some reason I am drawing a blank on more names, but I have always felt there is a great source of Russian names that are not used because they feel a bit feminine to our ears.
Bradley and Zachary end in the "ee" sound and are definitively male.
With "a" ending names for females being so prominent now, does anyone think any of those old testament boys names ending in a will eventually cross over to being used as girls names? Or do they have a more established history as being male than some of the recent crossovers (Ashley, Avery)?
Interesting and well-timed post, Laura, as usual! I know of a five-year-old boy named Kodiak, BTW. Unfortunately, it makes me think of Kodak, rather than bears or Alaska!
One of my best friends is named Kay, and although I always knew it was a family name, I was surprised to find out she was named after her father, his full name being Kay Mannio Lastname, the exact same as hers.
I couldn't help but wonder how/why an italian man who was born circa 1920 got the name Kay.
Any ideas?
Very timely post for me. I'm the mother-to-be who was asking about Asa, and wondering if it sounded feminine to people who aren't familiar with it. Because we like biblical names, many names on our list end in the -a sound (Micah being our leading choice), but I think I still feel nervous about it sometimes if people don't know a name, so I'm still not ready to commit. On the other hand, I guess I like picturing having a sensitive kind son, so I like the feeling that the -a sound can imply.
I think there are many boys names that end in the 'ee' sound (of course girls have used some of these too, but they're primarily boys names).
Toby, Billy, Bobby, Barry, for example.
Off the top of my head -- ee ending boy names:
Wesley
Andy
Harry
Henry
Bobby/Robby
Charlie
Larry
Most "EE" names for either female or male sound like names for babies and children to me, they don't grow up very well. (And that includes my own.)
I heard a soloist this week, who looked to be in his 60s, with the name Malley. My husband loves it, but I'm not sure if it sounds too feminine. Opinions?
The first thought I had wasn't that Zuma sounded feminine -- it was that Zuma is the name of a fairly popular Internet game or one that would be downloaded to a cellphone. I'm pretty sure my husband's phone came with a trial copy, actually.
It's also close to "Zune," which is a Microsoft mp3 player or something.
It's a name that screams computer to me. She may as well have named it iPod. (Yes, I know it has personal meaning for them, but you can't ignore connotation, IMHO.)
Ashley still sounds like a male name in the UK - thanks to several famous footballers.
Yolanda, the -ee ending is absolutely not a feminine ending here in the UK. Charlie and Alfie were both in the England and Wales top ten last year, plus Archie, Riley, Jamie, Harley, Bailey, Corey, Billy and Louie in the top 100.
But the only names I can find in the top 100 ending in the a or -ah sound are Joshua, Noah and Luca.
I've come across Mally as a nn for Malachi or Malcolm. I like it but much prefer Marley.
I think Zuma sounds particularly feminine to me because I think of Zima -- when is a chick beer (according to the guys I used to drink with).
I like the beach connection though. It's nice place for casual climbing and surfing days! I wonder if they planned to use it for a girl as well?
Actually have just counted up and last year there were 16 -ee names in the top 100 boys' names in England and Wales, which I'm sure makes it the most popular ending.
they are:
Harry
Charlie
Alfie
Archie
Finley
Toby
Riley
Louis
Freddie
Bradley
Harley
Bailey
Zachary
Billy
Corey
Louie
Quite a lot of those sound American-influenced to me - but maybe I am wrong? Would these be unusual or feminine in the US?
Interesting...I know a family with a Judah, Asa, and Ezra.
For me, Micah was always a girl's name. The first Micah I met was a 4 year old girl, and I was 6 at the time. The next Micah I met was a girl as well, 18, and I was 15. The only other Micah I know is a 2 year old boy, and it shocked me to hear it being used for a boy. I've adjusted to it now, and find it quite handsome.
@Keren -
From your list, Finley & Bailey are the ones that could be feminine in the US. The rest are all solidly masculine.
I think (and I never thought I'd say this) Zeus would have been better. Gwen could've pulled it off.
Well, we were *almost* right about Marley being a sibling to Kingston. Of course they would choose Nesta, plus a place name too boot in Zuma.
I agree that Zuma Nesta sounds feminine, and that's actually my favorite part about it (I touched upon this point on YCCII). Not that it sounds like a girl's name per se, but that it's soft. To me, a lot of super cool boys' names sound soft: Lucian, Cyril, Asa, Remy, Laurent, Luca, Milo... I really do think this will give heart to young parents who are also thinking along these lines for their sensitive young men.
http://youcantcallitit.com/
New baby alert: Baby boy Leslie Carlton, Jr. nn Les, born to neighbor. Thoughts?
Laura mentioned back when that she hoped Gwen would have her baby before the next edition manuscript had to be finished... Does this mean that the next edition of the Baby Name Wizard is soon going to print? Can't wait!
Leslie Carlton, Jr is nms. I just can't wrap my brain around Leslie. Even for a girl.
Watching the olympics again and I was reminded of a name ending with "a" that has a thoroughly masculine association: Attila.
Also, I've never noticed the name Nesta before, but I just saw that it is the name of a Jamaican runner (Nesta Carter) who won gold in the Men's 4 x 100m relay.
Gosh-Zuma reads boy to me!
Maybe because it sounds like zoom?
Of course, a little girl could zoom (is this a universal term for dashing around madly, or does it have other meanings I don't know?)
It sounds little boy to me, though-like Niko, Jett or Ace-though I suspect mom was going for something different.
It also reminds me of Kona, which is a potential boy name of my acquaintance who went with Mailey for her new baby girl (dad is Hawaiian).
Nesta does sound feminine-it reminds me of Nissa, a name I've only heard irl twice but always liked.
I'll be interested in seeing if I'm the odd one out on Zuma. Anyone else think it's clearly boy?
@Keren:
Of the ones you've listed, most trend older and aren't currently in style for boys in the U.S. (Harry, Alfie, Archie, Louis (or Louie), Freddie, Bradley). A few, however, are up-and-coming or popular girls names, at least amongst the under-3 crowd in Southern California (Charlie, Finley, Riley, Bailey, Harley). Corey was a popular name for boys and girls in the late 1970's, but most Corey's I have known have been girls.
I have to agree with J&H's mom. My first thought was that this was a boy's name before wondering if I was wrong. I agree that it sounds like zoom and having lived in SoCal most things surfer seem male. I actually think it fits nicely with Kingston, both have beach connotations and are unique without being "weird".
I don't think the silent -h at the end of many biblical masculine names (Jonah, Isaiah, etc.) necessarily protects it from sounding feminine. Consider some feminine biblical names:
Rebeccah
Deborah
Sarah
Usually Hebrew words ending in -ah are feminine, but not always.
Honestly I thought Zuma was a girl's name until stated otherwise. I suppose it could go either way.
I talked a bit about the topic of the endings of male Hebrew names in a previous post and I would like to reiterate just how varied the origins of translated or transliterated names really are. There are many possible Hebrew counterparts for names which end in a/ah in English.
First it is important to know that there are three silent letters in Hebrew, aleph, ayin, and hey, which make no noise other than that of the vowel paired with it. Also, there are also two vowels which make the "ah" sound: kamatz and patach.
Second, there is an important difference between (i) names that are nouns and (ii) names that are created from the merging of several words into one coherent meaning (the latter generally involving the name of God, often presented as "Ya" at the end of the name).
1) Names ending in Hey:
i) Names that are nouns:
The general rule in Hebrew is that if a noun ends with the the vowel kamatz and the letter hey, then that noun in feminine.
ii) Names indicating God's name:
[Note that if, instead of the "Ya" name of God, the name "El" is used, (basically "El" meaning the noun "god" rather than being the proper name of the singular Jewish God, "Ya", which comes from Yaweh), you end up with Mi ("who") + Cha ("like") + El ("god") = Michael.]
2) Names ending in Ayin:
3) Names ending in aleph:
***
There are also quite a few names which end in "ah" in English but that don't in Hebrew. The two types I can think of right now are:
- Noah = Noach
- Elijah = Eliyahoo --> "Ya is God" / "My God is YHWH"
- Jeremiah = Yermeyahoo --> "God has raised/uplifted"
- Isaiah = Yesha'yahoo --> "Salvation is God"
- Josiah = Yoshiyahu --> "God supports"
- etc
***
There are other examples for all of these categories, but this is what I could dig out of my brain at the moment.
Thanks Yolanda and Carly, really interested to hear that.
I think Zuma sounds very male...not sure why!
No wonder people think my son EZRA is a girl! I was equally shocked when I bet a little girl Ezra. I was also upset.
I can see the -a ending becoming out more for boys.
Great post Laura!
I mean "met" a little girl...sheesh
I also want to add that I see ZUMA as a boy's name.
@J&H's mom - Zuma sounds male to me, and after a bit of mulling it over, the reason popped into my head: Montezuma. Then a bit of googling revealed that Montezuma is also a place name in the USA. For me, though, Montezuma is the Aztec emperor.
Wow, Karyn! Excellent and interesting post.
I really like Elijah and after your post I like it even better. Maybe I can get hubby on board on this?
Rjoy,
There's a girl Esra, in my almost 2yo's music class. They really emphasize the s -- eSSSra. I've never heard that before. Is it trying to feminize Ezra, or does it have another source?
(I don't have much knowledge, but do have tons of interest, in naming).
Karyn, that rocked, thank you.
Laura, I love your blog entries, always.
Karyn, cool comment with the Hebrew naming info! Do you have a blog?
On a girl named Esra--there's a (female) singer-songwriter named Essra Mohawk--but on closer examination, she was born with the name Sandra Hurvitz. "Essra" looks to have been just a modification of Sandra--as in S-ra, said aloud and spelled out. (The Mohawk she married into.) Maybe the little Esra's parents are fans?
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:d9fixq85ldke~T1
Wasn't there an iced-tea drink called Zuma in the 80s? Or am I thinking of Zima? There was also Zemi in the 70s, a slushy fruit drink.
Naturally, being who I am, I hate the name Zuma, on a boy or a girl.
But I love Ezra on a boy. Ez has got to be the cutest nickname ever.
Since -ee did get quite feminized from 1975-present (think Kelli for the 70s, Ashlee for the 80s-90s, and Miley for the 2000s), I wonder if that's contributed to the trend of NOT giving -ee names to little boys. In the UK there seem to be lots of Freddies and Billies and Louies, but in the states among a certain set they would be much more likely to be Frederick, William (or Liam) and Louis. To me, the -i, -y, and -ie endings look and sound very 70s, while the -ee and -ey look slightly fresher. But I much prefer other endings.
Thanks, Karyn, for giving all that information--so I don't have to. :-)
I will note that the Hebrew pronunciations Karyn gives are Israeli. When I was learning Hebrew as a child, there was a little song we learned which went in part," Kometz, aleph, aw." So in my dialect of Hebrew (Ashkenazic), my father's name is pronounced Eliyawhu, not Eliyahoo. Just so, in Ashkenazic Hebrew the letter suf is used instead of tuf (as in Israeli Hebrew): thus Yonasan, instead of Yonatan (Jonathan), Bas Mitzvah instead of Bat Mitzvah, Shabbas instead of Shabbat. The Ultra-Orthodox community centered in NY-NJ still uses the Ashkenazic pronunciation (as do I, having--just--embarked on my study of Hebrew before the founding of the state of Israel).
I must say that it disturbs me to see male biblical names (like Micah, Elisha, and even Michael) bestowed on girls, whether out of ignorance or as part of the general trend of giving male names to girls (which I personally dislike on several grounds).
BTW ayin is not really a silent letter (although we were taught to treat it as such). It is a voiced pharyngeal fricative. Pharyngeals are made way back in the organs of articulation (they are uvular) and no longer exist in Indo-European languages, although they once did. There is evidence of pharyngeals/laryngeals in Hittite (spoken in Anatolia in biblical times). People coming to Hebrew from an Indo-European language background have the devil's own time pronouncing this sound or even hearing it. Hence we were taught to ignore it.
I suppose that's enough Hebrew linguistics, especially since that is not really my field of expertise.
As a footnote, in an appendix to the Lord of the Rings Tolkien has fun with the expectation that -a is feminine and -o is masculine, as he explains that Frodo's name is really Froda....
Rjoy, I've only ever known Ezra as a name for boys.
I do think Zuma sounds like a girl's name, but like you all said there are traditional names that are known as for boys.
I never knew Micah was biblical, I thought it was a new made up name!
Elizabeth in Canada, I thought of Zuma as a video game too. :)
As others have said, when I first read the name I thought it was a girl too. I do think that Zuma is less feminine (probably because of the video game connection) than Nesta.
Glad you posted this Laura - I was wondering what you were thinking about it. :)
Nope, I don't have a blog... just too much time on my hands at the moment.
Miriam-
1) I had an explanation of ayin and its gutteral pronunciation but I took it out because it wasn't vital and the post was sufficiently long without it.
2) The song you quoted is actually a Yiddish song, Oyfn Pripetchik ("On the Hearth"): In Yiddish, the vowels are different in than in Hebrew in that they are stand-alone letters, made from letters which are typically silent in Hebrew.
As in the song, kamatz+aleph=Oh, BUT kamatz+aleph=Ah.
3) The issue of "tav" vs. "sav" is actually a very old one and the distinction is more than just a question of dialect. The Ashkenazim didn't just pronounce the letter differently, they made a distinction that has since been lost in modern Hebrew. There are two versions of the letter "tav" (or "taf/tuf"): one with a dot ("dagesh") in the middle and one without. Way back, this dot was the difference between /t/ and /s/ pronunciation - With the dagesh, Tav=/s/, without, Tav=/t/.
So a name like Yonatan doesn't have the dagesh in the tav and is therefore pronounced as /s/ by those who observed this distinction. Same deal with "Bas Mitzvah". And my mother grew up saying her Hebrew name, Yehudit, (the female version of Judah/Yehudah,) as Yehudis ("yeh-HOO-dis"), because that is how *her* parents say it, having been born in Canada but learning to speak from *their* parents, who lived in Eastern Europe and whose mother tongue was Yiddish. My mom much prefers the modern Hebrew pronunciation ("yeh-hoo-DEET") and wishes that she had know that the option existed before she had kids and sent them to Hebrew school and they told her so.
These days you don't really see the dagesh distinction in use, and now the pronunciation is more a matter of age and level of religious observance, with very religious Ashkenazim (not only those in NY-NJ) maintaining the old way, along with the people who learned the words a long time ago and/or from Yiddish-speaking parents.
For example, two highly religious schools around here are called "Beis Yaakov (Base YAH-kəv)" and "Beis Rivkah (Base RIV-kə)", while in any other condition I would read these names as "Beit Yaakov (BATE ya-ah-KOV)" and "Beit Rivkah (BATE reev-KAH)". But because they are ultra-religious schools, largely populated by students who speak Yiddish at home, the old Ashkenazi pronunciation is used for the names of their schools.
Any modern Ashkenazi school will teach the modern Hebrew version and I have never seen a dictionary with the older pronunciations.
Oy, I hope that all made sense. My brain is starting to go a bit buggy.
1. WOW on Hebrew naming -- always so many fascinating things to learn from everyone here.
2. I had only skimmed an item about Gwen Stefani, and had just assumed that Zuma was a girl. Oops! Guess that proves the point, though.
Just loving the information on Ashkenazi v modern Israeli pronounciation because it is very much affecting my family right now. My daughter is approaching her batmitzvah, and has some Hebrew to read. My husband cannot help her with it, although his Hebrew is infinitely more fluent than mine - because he learnt the old fashioned Ashkenazi pronounciation. Nor can the rabbi help - because he is ultra-orthodox and also uses the Ashkenazi pronounciation.
So I am charged with helping her - although my Hebrew reading is rusty, my pronounciation is 'correct' (I am modern and my husband is old fashioned, although we are only a year apart) But the real authority is my son, who is at a Jewish primary school and is learning Hebrew from an Israeli. So when we run into trouble we all turn to 8-year-old Judah as the authority.
Amazingly my daughter is doing very well with it!
I think some media may have thought Zuma was a girl too. The actual story has been updated, but the Google blurb (for now) still reads "Gwen Stefani and Gavin Rossdale have called their newborn daughter Zuma Nesta Rock."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-U...
Of course what I forgot to say explicitly, though hopefully it was somewhat implied, is that all of these "Ashkenazi" pronunciations of Hebrew words all relate to words and names that are the same words used in Yiddish. The words borrowed into Yiddish from Hebrew tend to have earlier emphases and somewhat softer pronunciations in Yiddish and these correspond to the "Ashkenazi" pronunciations in Hebrew. So Hebrew's kah-MATZ is Yiddish's KOH-metz.
To use another example that will probably be familiar to most people: The words that technically mean "good luck" but that are used to mean "congratulations, Mazel Tov.
And to bring it on back to names, my sister went to school with a girl whose middle name was "Mazel Tov". I've always been amused by that one.
Zuma sounds like a girl to me too.
and speaking of boy/girl endings--what about Bambi? What were the Disney folks thinking?
My first guess is they're naming the kids after the places the kids were conceived.
This is off topic, but I have done enough lurking here to know this is the the place to get name advice, so here it goes.
I will be having a baby girl pretty soon and I am really considering the name Willa. My questions are (1) is this name getting popular yet and/or do people think it has the potential to get super-popular due to the similarity in sound to Ella, Bella, etc.? and related (2) do you think it sounds like "just another" Ella, Bella, Emma, or do you think it has its own identity?
FYI, I have an almost-3-year-old son named Theodore who we call Teddy.
TIA, and thanks!
I am looking for good mn's for Helen.
Thinking of Penelope, Verity or Calypso... ??
Jessica -
Of those three, Helen Verity gets my vote. Helen Penelope is a little heavy on the Homer. Helen Calypso too, come to think of it. It does sound nice, though.
Helen Paloma? Helen Francesca? Helen Amelia? Helen Antonia?
Hmm, I guess I think Helen sounds best with an -A middle name. But you can't really go wrong with Helen, unless your last name is Handbasket.
Helena Penelope rolls off the tongue fairly well, I think, if that's an option.
Willa is in a different category to Ella Bella, I think. Not sure if it is a great match for Theodore though. I guess Wilhelmina is out of the question? How about Willow? Although that is a bit of a climber these days.
pregnant mama- I really like Willa, and think it's completely different than the other names you listed. I haven't seen it at all in the baby announcements nor have I met any in the preschool set. It doesn't seem like a name that is about to take off to me.
Jessica- I like the sound of Helen Calypso best, and Helen Verity is ok. Helen Penelope doesn't flow right for me, and like JM said, it's a little Homer-Heavy.
Other ideas-
Helen Rhianna, Helen Marina, Helen Channing
Re: Esra - whomever mentioned the name Esra (girl) - I know a very fashionable 30-something Turkish woman in NYC by that name. Sounds nothing like the male name Ezra; though I'm sure some could inexplicably & annoyingly confuse the two.
@pregnant mama - Willa strikes me as nothing at all like the Ella/Bella names. To me, it's more of a hipster name, like Enid, Betty, Phyllis. Best wishes.
Trish- I too think Willa is a different sounding name than (B)ella. It does make me think of Willa Ford...but I think that's just a stage name if it makes any different.
Jessica- Of those three I'd go with Calypso. The rest are sort of 'eh' sound heavy when paired with Helen, imho.
difference* oops
ooooo, Helen Paloma! Nice one!!
My sister is the mom of Lucy Ann3, blah blah blah.
Update: her husband doesn't like Maggie Jun3, but she's set on Maggie and just wants to give him some MN options.
Opinions please!:
Maggie Brooke (My new fav)
Maggie Hope
Maggie Jane
Maggie Tess
Maggie ?
Thanks!!!
PS my "Captcha" is Helen Neighboorhood...That sounds pretty good! ha!
Maggie Jane is the only one of the above I like (and I like it quite a bit). Brookle and Hope are nms, and Tess doesn't flow that well with Maggie.
Is she set on a 1-syllable middle? If so, I'd suggest:
Maggie Claire.
If not, I'd recommend:
Maggie Eleanor
Maggie Alice
Maggie Elizabeth (overused, but it flows beautifully)
Maggie Caroline
Maggie Catherine/Maggie Kate
Maggie Louise
When is the baby due? Hope she and husband can see eye-to-eye.
Should say Brooke--not that Brookle is my style, either :)
AG- I really like Maggie Brooke and Maggie Jane... maybe Maggie Jane the best. I also like
Maggie Elizabeth
Maggie Elise
Maggie Marie
Maggie Shae/Shay
Thanks for the comments.
Leonie, regarding Wilhelmina. I would consider it if our last name weren't somewhat of a mouthful. Theodore is about as much of a mouthful as our last name can take. But that brings up a point, as far as the research I have done (on-line) it appears that Willa is a name in its own right, though I can see using as a nn for Wilhelmina, too. Am I right about that?
Aybee, in my research I did come across Willa Ford, who I had never heard of before. From her website, which showcased her pictures and her *ahem* music, it seemed to me like she lacked and real staying power. She is not that beautiful (pretty average, just made up and works out all the time) and the music was really terrible. But, I am not at all in touch with pop culture. Is she someone who is very popular now? The only Willa I had heard of was Willa Cather. I think she would be a much better role model for any young girl.
Regarding Helen, I think the softer 3-syllable names go well with that.
I like Maggie Jane, I like Margaret Jane better, going by Maggie. Likely, that was addressed in an earlier post.
Wow catching up after a long weekend-
Zuma to me is feminine, but Luca is more masculine. I equated this to the fact that I think of Luca=Lucas which is a boy name. The closest I get to Zuma are other Z girl names like Zena, Zoe, etc. Btw, my dh and I were trying to keep ourselves busy while driving this weekend and were thinking of a fantasy family with all Z names. Oh boy was that interesting!
Re:Willa-for me it's a different feel than Ella/Bella but yet not. Bella goes to Isabella which goes with all those Ivy, Violet kind of names. Willa seems to go to Willow to match them. However, it also has an "old-fashioned" character to it like names of Mildred, and Bertha. I hope I'm not being offensive in my assessments but this is just the feel for me.
Re:Maggie-I have to laugh a little because the girl I mentioned when this was first posted about, who is "just a Maggie", is named Maggie Claire LN. I like it even if I don't have connections! Also, like Maggie Aliya, Maggie Rachel, Maggie Josephine, Maggie Danielle, Maggie Veronica, Maggie Sophia. I think 3 syl works best.
Re: Helen-Helen Josephine, Helen Joanna, Helen Olivia, Helen Constance, Helen Georgina, Helen Rebecca (I like this last one the best!)
P.S. thank you Karyn and Miriam for being so informative. Not only is this board fun but I learn some things too sometimes!
My daughter is Helen, but her MN is a family surname--so I'm not very helpful there! I like Helen Josephine, or Helen Joanna, or Helen Paloma, of the suggestions so far. That long-O sounds is a nice solid center next to Helen (which has lighter vowel sounds, if that makes sense). I'd avoid Penelope and Calypso for the Homer references--one of those is enough per name.
Ooo I like the Helen Francesca. And Josephine. Now I will have to think about that. I am not worried about the Homer thing. Honestly, few will ever know about this name. I am trying to work thruogh a miscarriage and decided to name my baby. I am fairly certain it was a girl. I like the name Helen but could never use it "in real life". All that to say I am still open for suggestions and __you fill in the blanks__heavy references dont matter.
Jessica, I hope picking the perfect name for this baby helps you heal. I like Helen Paloma, for the dove/peace reference. Along similar lines, you could also do Helen Olivia, for the olive branch, or Helen Irene.
I really like the name Willa. To me it seems like a mix of modern and old fashioned, not like Ella which seems like one of those pretty/cute names. Not that Willa isn't pretty or cute lol.
It does seem slightly like Bella, but thats only because I think of Bella as an old fashioned sounding name, though I think most people would associate it with Ella rather than Willa.
The only Willa Ive ever heard of is Willa Holland, who played Caitlyn Cooper in The OC. I would imagine she is about 16/17.
I think it also works nicely with Teddy.
Hi All,
Thanks for the suggestions and I really like Maggie Jane too. She wants to present her DH with 3-4 choices so he feels like he has a say in it, but she's so tired of thinking about it; not a NE like me, obviously! And she really did ask me to "run this by my board, " so your opinions are helping a lot. BTW: She can't do Claire or Kate because she has close friends with DDs that have those as fn or mn.
Jessica, I hope finding the perfect name will help.
Re Willa: I agree that it's a nice name and I love the Cather reference. It's not another Ella, Bella, Stella to me.
I really love Willa! And don't be held back by Willa Ford at all. She had some success with her music in the early 2000s and was on Dancing with the Stars in 2006. She will be playing Anna Nicole Smith in a movie, but I doubt that will make her a household name. So definitely don't let that turn you away, because most people haven't heard of her.
pregnant mama-- I wouldn't worry about the Willa Ford connection. To be honest with you, I thought of her name but couldn't remember who she was/what she did until I looked it up. I don't think shes going to rise to a level of fame that would make naming your child Willa akin to naming her "Angelina" or anything like that. Just wanted to let you know. I think its a nice name that will age with your baby well!
Re: Maggie - would her given name be Margaret, nn Maggie? NMS, however I like the given name of Margaret much better than the given name of Maggie.
AG, your mention of Ella, Bella, and Stella reminded me of something I've been kicking around in the back of my mind for a few weeks: completely irrational like and dislike of names.
I love the name Stella, am wishy-washy about Ella, and dislike Bella. Why? I have no idea. Similarly, I like Emily, am okay with Emma (it gets stuck in my mouth somehow), and hate Erma. Love Brendan and dislike Brandon. Love Stephen and don't like Steven (now that's nuts!). There is nothing wrong with Bella, Emma, and Brandon, but they're so similar to Stella, Emily, and Brendan that I ought to like them. But I just don't.
Do any of the rest of you have irrational likes and dislikes of names?
Elizabeth T: I don't know if your feelings are irrational. I did take a linguistics course in college and learned enough to know it's a highly developed field in which I never developed expertise :)
That said, the "st" sound at the start of Stella adds something very distinct to that name that the others are lacking. A certain harshness. As for the others you mention, I don't know.
I really appreciate everyone's comments here on Willa. I don't have many people whose opinions I value to ask here in real life, since most friends don't have kids and/or are out of touch with pop culture and naming trends. Willa is really growing on me more and my fasionable NYC sister gave it her approval.
Elizabeth T -- I do that too! I like Livia but not Olivia. I like Katherine but not Kathryn. I like Micah but not Michael. I like Bella, am wishy-washy about Stella, and really dislike Ella.
I also find myself often liking the opposite-gender equivalent of a name that I dislike. For example, I like Victor, but not Victoria; I like Oliver but not Olivia; I like Francesca but not Francis; I like Georgiana but not George. It is very weird!
re: Helen
I like Helen Olivia. It just flows beautifully and has the symbolism as well.
Elizabeth T—I was thinking about that the other day as I contemplated my dd's name: Nina. Why do I love it so, but hate, Tina, Gina, esp. Dina? (No offense). I'm ambivalent about Lina but prefer Lena. I think each name when you hear it read it creates connotations in your mind that are shaded by your life experiences and environment. I love Ana and Anya, but they seem too rhymey as a sister to Nina although to me, they're completely different.
Re: Zuma, I thought it was a girl's name at first, but the more I see it the more it reads boy to me.
Re: mn for Helen, I think, given the circumstances, Helen Paloma would be lovely. I hope naming the baby brings you some peace.
Re: Willa, I mentioned this on a recent post, but my childbirth instructor had a Willa (who would now be 15 yrs old). I think it's a super name, and have liked it for years (even before knowing of this Willa irl). I agree that it's not in the Ella/Bella camp.
Re: mn for Maggie, I like Maggie Jane best of the ones you listed, but the 3 syllable names suggested by others are quite nice, too.
Amy3: I like Maggie Jane the best as well, but I also suggested Maggie Brooke (and the others) to my sister because they seem like something her husband would like...he's suggesting names like, Taylor. She wants him to feel like he has some options since she's set on Maggie.
I adore the name Jane as a MN. Lydia Jane was the future baby name my ex and I picked out years ago, so I feel ok about giving up Jane, but I still might use Lydia, just as Lidia instead! I'm not pg, so I have time to think about it.
Here are the 2 options right now for my 2010 baby, sister to Nina Frances (Hard G Spanish LN (Anglosized)).
Lidia Noelle
Lidia Juliet
Audrey Noelle
Audrey Juliet
(My DH likes Lidia better than Lydia. We both love Audrey although it's in the top 100 and isn't Pan-Euro.)
Thoughts?
Great post, Laura! I was wondering what you would make of the Zuma naming. Thanks!
Jessica-I am sorry for your loss. I hope that naming your child will help you move through the grieving process. I believe there are some others that have posted before with similar situations. Some have done names they absolutely loved but wouldn't use, or instead have made reference to peace, God, smallness, or other themes. Some names for you to think on with meanings:
PEACE=Irene, Freida, Winifred
GOD/LORD=Eliana, Dominique, Joelle, Kyrie, Meredith, Talia
FREEDOM=Liberty, Saoirse
SMALL/LITTLE=Paulette
BIRD=Dove, Cedonia, Columbine, Jemima, Lark, Paloma, Iolani, Zipporah
So since you already like Helen Paloma and Helen Irene as well as some others I think you are well on your way to picking the perfect name. Good luck and best wishes.
Re: Willa
I love that name but couldn't name my future child daughter that because, when combined with the last name King, it too clearly prompts the question "Will a king _____?" and that just won't do. The first time I heard the name was in the show Six Feet Under and I have loved it ever since.
AG-Lidia Noelle flows very nicely.
Maggie Brooke seems too choppy though. Here are a few more suggestions to match the feel of Taylor.
Addison; Sidney; Adair; Peyton; Jordan; Reagan;
Emerson; Makenzie; Sheridan; Delaney; Leigh; Blair; Paige; and Samantha.
Zuma immediately made me think of Jacob Zuma, the South African (Zulu) politician.
But why in the heck would the Stefani-Rossdales want to name their kid after a politician notorious for rape charges and for speaking of alleged rape victims as "temptresses" who indicate their approval of sex by wearing "short skirts?"
Nope, didn't think so. The Malibu beach works a lot better.
Does anyone know why Marley was named Nesta? I have known two: one Welsh-born woman now in her middle 60s, and one 40-something American woman who used it as a nickname for Agnes.
Either there's some Jamaican connection we don't know about (i.e. Nesta is a landmark or cultural connection after which both Marley and Carter were named, or Marley's parents coined it for their son and Carter was later named after Marley. I believe Carter is young enough to have been so.)
AG -- I like the flow of Lidia Noelle, too.
>>Do any of the rest of you have irrational likes and dislikes of names?<<
Oh yes, specifically Aubrey, Seth, and Amelia (no offense to those whose children or selves bear those names...). And to a lesser degree, Audrey and Tyler. NO clue why, I know lovely, wonderful people with all those names, but still.
:)
This was on wikipedia:
Bob Marley was born in the small village of Nine Mile in Saint Ann Parish, Jamaica as Nesta Robert Marley.[4] A Jamaican passport official would later swap his first and middle names.[5] His father Norval Sinclair Marley was a white English Jamaican of Jewish Syrian Sephardic descent.[citation needed] Norval was a Marine officer and captain, as well as a plantation overseer, when he married Cedella Booker, a black Jamaican then eighteen years old.[6] Norval provided financial support for his wife and child, but seldom saw them, as he was often away on trips.
Also here is info on Marley's children:
Bob Marley had 13 children: three with his wife Rita, two adopted from Rita's previous relationships, and the remaining eight with separate women.[19] His children are, in order of birth:
Imani Carole, born May 22, 1963, to Cheryl Murray;
Sharon, born November 23, 1964, to Rita in previous relationship;
Cedella born August 23, 1967, to Rita;
David "Ziggy", born October 17, 1968, to Rita;
Stephen, born April 20, 1972, to Rita;
Robert "Robbie", born May 16, 1972, to Pat Williams;
Rohan, born May 19, 1972, to Janet Hunt;
Karen, born 1973 to Janet Bowen;
Stephanie, born August 17, 1974; according to Cedella Booker she was the daughter of Rita and a man called Ital with whom Rita had an affair; nonetheless she was acknowledged as Bob's daughter;
Julian, born June 4, 1975, to Lucy Pounder;
Ky-Mani, born February 26, 1976, to Anita Belnavis;
Damian, born July 21, 1978, to Cindy Breakspeare;
Makeda, born May 30, 1981, to Yvette Crichton.
>>Do any of the rest of you have irrational likes and dislikes of names?<<
Me, too. Almost all -nald names (e.g., Ronald, Donald, Reginald) and names with "too many" Gs (e.g., Gregory). I don't like -ene names (e.g., Darlene, Marlene), but I don't mind -ine names (e.g., Christine, Justine).
Elizabeth T.,
I most definitely have irrational dislikes for names! Of the three you mentioned Stella, Bella, and Ella, I like Ella the most (despite its popularity) and Stella the least. I suppose that may not be entirely random as I hear the "STELLA!!!" quote from Streetcar in my head whenever I read it. I'm sure there are other names I don't like, but the one the comes to mind is Lisa. Certainly no offense to anyone with the name, but I just don't like it and I have no idea why! Shouldn't be it's popularity since I am a Jennifer and that never bothered me...
For the Magge MN discussion there were a bunch of nice options but I also like the sound Maggie Jane. I worry a little since the dh doesn't like June that Jane may be out too, but maybe not!
Jessica, so sorry for your loss, I think any of the names listed above for you are lovely!
Re: Willa, I love that name, totally adorable, but I also think it will grow up well. As for Willa Ford I had never heard of her til this post.
PS. Baby name alert: H4nnon P4ul LN (b) first name rhymes with Shannon. I actually really like it even though it isn't my style.
re: irrational likes and dislikes of names?
Yes! Can't stand boys names that end in -L: (Gabriel, Daniel, Dashiell); Girls' names that end in -SON (i.e. Emerson = son of Emer?); the annoying trend of giving boys' names to girls (Rowan, Micah, Chase, Finley should be reserved for boys IMO); & the oh-so-very-annoying trend of Last Names First where there is absolutely no family history or meaning (Madison, Addison, Logan etc).
OTOH, I love thoughtful naming. Names that flow with the last name & create good initials. Names that don't invite playground teasing. Names that are not about trying too hard. Names that have some soul. I actually think the Jolie-Pitts have achieved this; but not the Stefani-Rossdales, or the Spearses. Gah.
O you all are so kind. Thank you.
Wow, did any of you notice that Bob Marley had three children by different women in the space of one month? Good grief!
I did notice that, Valerie. He was a busy guy! It reminds me of a scandal that happened at one of the major universities in this area a few years ago--an English professor had an affair with a student and in the subsequent brouhaha, it came out that he had fathered two sons within a few months of each other, one by his wife and the other by his long-time mistress. The kicker was that both sons were named Austin! I think he probably suggested the name to his wife after his mistress had bestowed that on his first son (his wife had no idea about the other relationship) so he wouldn't accidentally call either child by the wrong name.
Jessica, I think that Helen works well with all of the names you've chosen. You can't go wrong! And what a lovely idea.
I don't know if I would call it irrational, but I really don't care for the F sound spelled with F or PH. Frieda, Frank, Phinneas, Persephone, Daphne, Phillip (well that one's not too bad). I think it's because it's a weird sound to my ears-like a "raspberry sound-as when one blows on a baby's tummy". I don't really care for THAT either. Giggles and belly-laughs are great though!
I love my bro-in-law to pieces but he's like a brick wall right now with the names. He does like Maggie and June (which is my sis and my late grandmother's MN, but she went by it.) But he doesn't like Maggie June together. So she thinks he may like Maggie Jane. (I'm waiting to hear)
OTOH, he likes Lola...it's an obscure family name on his side and he's randomly thrown out the suggestion Taylor. Otherwise he's just, no, no, no, to anything she's suggested. It doesn't help that all her friends have babies with great names, so there are a lot that have been suggested on this board but she couldn't use. And y'all might remember the suggestion of the name Magnolia. Well, after I mentioned it to her I found out it's his least favorite tree (?) Who has a least favorite tree???? haha, so she didn't even try that one! And it's HIS state tree. How apropos!?! oh well. :)
Carly, I love thoughtful baby naming too! but maybe it's because I obsess over it (can you tell???).
>>And y'all might remember the suggestion of the name Magnolia. Well, after I mentioned it to her I found out it's his least favorite tree (?) Who has a least favorite tree???? <<
Um, my best friend? Absolutely HATES Magnolia trees. Cracks me up, but I can't look at one, or hear the name, without thinking of that.
Ok...I have to know.. Why do they hate Magnolia trees? Who can hate the big beautiful white flower??
I just looked up Magnolia trees. Funny thing..there is actually a type of flower called a Magnolia Jane.
Well, magnolias are very messy in habit. They drop a lot of cones and leaves and bright red seeds. It's a project to keep the yard tidy around the magnolias. My neighbors hated mine and wanted to murder it....
As for irrational like/dislike of names, I agree with what someone said above -- for me a lot of it comes down to life experience. It's funny because I don't think of myself as particularly bullied as a child, but several perfectly good names are out for my (far future) child like: Caroline, Ashley, Kyle, and Tyler just because of bad associations I have with people of those names in my childhood! The mind is a funny thing...
With apologies to any Jennifers reading, but I definitely had too many nasty Jennifers in my past to consider liking the name!
Also dislike the name Derek, for no particular reason. And Agatha, Agnes, Dagmar, Dagny, Maggie- that ag sound is a turn off.
On irrational dislikes. I like alot of boys names on girls, such as Finley, Finnian, Chase, Levi, Harley... I could go on, but I know a 13 year old female Cody and it drives me mad. I just think it's a boys name, but Im not sure why just that one bothers me.
When I looked at the babynamewizard.com page this morning, both the main page and this comments thread prompted a pop-up dialogue box asking for my username and password. I could x-out the box after a few seconds, and read everything as normal, but found this quite odd.
To me, Zuma is a video game on Yahoo Games, involving shooting colored balls out of a stone frog.
Irrational hatred of a name: Jaime, for girls, spelled that way. Yeah, I still haven't forgiven you, Jaime K, for being so mean to me my first day of 3rd grade 20 years ago.
On second thought, that's an entirely rational hatred of a name, so I need to think of some others. I don't like the names Danielle or Rachel, even though one of my closest friends has the latter. I love Rebecca but dislike Rebekah.
I dislike "K" names. I discovered that during out our creation of imaginary families of 18. Catherine over Katherine, Carrie over Keri, Cameron over Kameron...every time. Not that I like Carrie or Cameron all that much to begin with. I'm glad there are no "K" relatives in my husband's family we need to name for, because I would have to put my foot down.
I do not dislike any trees, however.
Miriam, you might be their neighbor! haha. That's why he hates it. But she loves it. The flowers are just lovely and smell divine. I have 3 small ones in my yard but no problems yet! I can't wait to use some clippings as Christmas decorations! How very Southern!
I dislike names that end in N and I'm angry ALL DAY LONG! just kidding. I like a lot of them! However, I agree with the pp who said not liking names with "son" endings for girls. But I'm def. not into androgynous names.
Yes, I know 2 toddler Willas. I absolutely believe that the name will rise in popularity because of its sound similarity to Ella. Ella is starting to sound tired some parts of the country. Even Stella is getting a lot of use here in California. Willa is the fresher version of the same sound. As Laura says, it's all about sound.
Baby alert!
My California surfer cousin's wife just had twin boys!
Names are: Zev & Knox
(They actually chose the names Knox knowing it was a Brangelina name. They don't care. Do you guys think that the Names is on the rise? they think so. I don't.)
(Also, they think Zuma is a great name, and have written it down for future use.)
Also, just for interest's sake, hear are some names my cousin and his wife were thinking about:
Gemini
Beowulf
Seacrest (I didn't know it was a first name...)
Willow
Pyrrha (Greek mythology I think.)
Aiden
Hazel
Daphne
Dominic
This was back when they didn't know the genders. :)
Those are interesting names. I can hardly say Zev. My brain makes it Kev beside the Knox and I know it's not right but... And all the "alternate" names are rich. Although it kind of surprises me to see Aiden in that mix.
Knox on the rise? I would guess so.
I think Zuma ia going to appeal to a very specific group of people. Surf/beach/pop...
Zev and Knox sound like they come from two different families to me, since one is Hebrew and one sounds more protestant to me. But I like both names.
Until I started looking for names for my soon-to-be-born baby, I didn't realize how many names I dislike! I have always been a NE, so I thought it would be easy. But I definitely have an irrational dislike of many names, some of which are associated with people who I don't like, and others just because I don't like the sound. I have always been attracted to the 'J', 'L' and 'T' sounds, I have no idea why.
Seacrest?!?! As in Ryan?
To Eimi:
That list is really random. Gemini, Knox, Zuma and Seacrest all seem so surfy and modern. And Daphne is my nan's name!
Though I have been expecting people to start calling their kids Daphne, its that vintage so-old-its-trendy thing.
I wonder if they considered Zephyr instead of Zev. I think it's meaning of the "west wind" and the famous California Zephyr train would fit better with their style. Zeph and Knox sounds better too.
They should have consulted with me first! LOL!
What's going on with that log in at the start of opening this site? I logged into it thinking perhaps it was some new security measure put in place. I thought "I guess I once logged in here and just forgot about it." However, once I entered my two most-commonly-used passwords in combination with my email address and they didn't work, I got worried. I hope it's not some phishing scam or something! Laura?
I'm so pleased they didn't go for Seacrest...sounds like a toilet cleaner.
Yes, I had problems too, just now. I just kept pressing cancel and the drop down went away eventually.
Irrational dislike of names: Most J names except Joy and Julia, I don't know why. I don't like K names either. Which is a bummer since the name Keturah is growing on me but I can't get past the K.
Most of my irrationalness starts with the Letter. Like I don't like, B, C, F except for Flora but the F still bothers me, O, P, U, and X. So a lot of letters. Hmmm So far all of my kids names start with Vowels except for my first. I also have a weird love of all names that start with the letter E.
Maybe I need therapy.......LOL!
OH, I forgot....About Willa. I think the name is great. But I would bet money that it is going to get big. Before I read about it on this blog I have heard other people talking about it. It might be a few years, but nonetheless, it will get there.
I love the name Willa. I taught a teenage girl named Willa a few years ago, and she was gorgeous and sweet. That always affects how I see a name, of course!
I run a plant nursery so I chuckled about your comments about Magnolias. There is a group of Magnolia hybrids developed by the US National Arboretum called affectionately as "the Girls". The first group of six "sister" plants (with the same parents) were named 'Ann', 'Betty', 'Judy', 'Randy', 'Ricki' and 'Susan'. Then there is a cousin named 'Jane' and another cousin named 'Pinkie'.
They were born ;-) in 1955 and 1956 but named and introduced in 1968.
FYI, they do not look much like the classic Magnolia, with a different shape and colours range from soft pink to deep purple pink.
I love the name Willa, although whenever I hear it, I get an image of Wila Ford in my head. I know she had a few hits here in the 90's, but I think she is way more popular in Europe. I studied in Florence for a year, and a lot of people that I met were fans.
Also, about the trend issue...I teach at a very small pre-school in L.A., and over the past four years I have met 7 Willa's (ranging from age 2 1/2- 6).
All the same, I never get annoyed by it like I do when I meet yet another Sophie/a, Ava,(Isa/Anna)Bella, Maddison, Riley/Kylie, Jaden (boy or girl), and Jackson/Jaxon. I can't even count how many of these I have met over the past few years. I also used to love the names India, Savannah, Julien, and Jasper, but yet again, I've taught so many of them that they have lost their charm.
Two names I really do not like: Linda and Myrtle.
Myrtle is one common name for a pretty ground cover - another common name is Periwinkle.
The botanical name is Vinca. With names such as Rosa, Viola, Daphne, why not Vinca? It has a V and ends in an a, and sounds nicer than Myrtle!
We are trying to come up with an "R" name that can be a nickname for Richard for our son due in January...Rick, Rich, Ricky, Richie, and Rush are out due to various friends/family members...Our current top choice is River..what do you guys think of this 1. as a name in general, and 2. as a nickname for Richard the fourth (Richard IV = RIV = River, get it?) is it too much of a stretch?
Thanks in advance!
Pregnant mama - I like the name Willa and it does go nicely with Teddy. The only thing that would give me pause is that there are tons of little Williams around, usually nn. Will. Don't know if that would bother you but it's something to be aware of.
River as a nn for Richard is inventive. Not bad though. If I were meeting you irl and were told that was his nn I would buy it but I would probably not come up with it myself. I don ot care for the name as a stand-alone, I think it's a little bit on the "surfer realm" as in out-there. All I associate with it is River Phoenix.
I wonder if turning the name backwards and doing Drach=Drake would be something you could do. Drake is a very hip/cool name imo.
SDH.
River for Richard IV is a really good way to stick to family tradition and give your son a very modern name. You need to be OK with the hippie connotations for River; if you are fine with that I say go for it.
Congrats,
jenny
SDH - ^^what they said^^
sdh -- I think River for Richard IV is clever in a really good way. I like it. Plus you could call him Riv, which is pretty cool, too.
sdh-- Must it start with "R"? If it doesn't have to, I would hands down go with one of the oldest nicknames for "Richard"---- "Hitch". In the Middle Ages, they were big on rhyming nicknames, so "Rich" became "Hitch", "Rob" became "Bob", then "Dob" and "Dobbin", "Anne" became "Nan" (through the endearment "mine Anne") etc. etc.
Just because few moderns know that "Hitch" is a nickname for "Richard" is no impediment to using it. I think most intelligent people are quite fascinated to find out tidbits like that, IF you're up to explaining it!
Although to me not as appealing, I could also see going with "Ride" or "Ryder". Too bad the lemming-like celebs have already picked up on Ryder...
I think "Richard" is an elegant choice- it has that retro Boomer side (think Rob and Laura Petrie's little boy "Richie" on the Dick Van Dyke show); but also a long distinguished history with lots of royal ties like "Richard the Lionhearted", etc. I adore actors Richard Widmark and Richard Burton too.
Although this is a minority viewpoint, I also very much like the nickname "Dick", and don't think it should be discarded because of some stupid slang connotations! Other venerable names like "John" and "Peter" have similarly weathered dubious slang meanings.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this one...
Another old nickname for Richard is Dickin, following the same pattern as Jankin and Perkin. Dickin could reasonably morph into Dixon. Or even Rixon/Rix.
If I were you, though, I would stop trying to come up with a nickname pre-partum. When you and the family start interacting with the baby, something will come up naturally, perhaps the mispronunciation of a small relative, perhaps a reaction to some facet of the baby's personality. You need to have a legal name pronto to put on the birth certificate, but you can take your time and allow a nickname to emerge "organically," as it were.
Was someone still wanting names for a possible sister to Ainsley?
I put together a little list while I was doing some mindless chores, so I thought I'd offer it up.
Paige
Claire
Rowan
Harper
Sadie
Adair
Bridget
Margo
pregnantmama-Willa is a name I've come to love since I started frequenting this board. Whether it's too trendy depends a great deal on where one lives. Believe it or not, I don't know a single baby William or Willa, and I know absolutely gobs of little ones.
However, we're in the 'burbs, and we still get raised eyebrows over Henry.
Someone once suggested checking the names of babies in the online nurseries of your neighborhood hospitals, and I think that is a very good suggestion.
sdh-I'm kind of neutral on River itself (I think the connection with the actor is probably very strong for those of us in a certain age bracket), but I think it's a very clever idea as a Richard IV nn.
sdh:
for Richard, I love Hitch, Rix and River!
Are there any standard nn's for someone who is a fourth? I know thirds, get Tripp and Trey and the like. A fifth could go by Quint, Quinn, etc.
"Are there any standard nn's for someone who is a fourth? I know thirds, get Tripp and Trey and the like. A fifth could go by Quint, Quinn, etc."
Well, he could be called Quart, even if he is only a half-pint....
Re Quart... LOL
little known Willa Ford fact:
she was born Amanda Lee Williford
thanks for your comments so far everyone! i have a very strong preference that the nickname begin with the same letter at the real name, hence the search for R names.
i don't mind the "hippiness" factor of River, i like that it is water related. and i don't think many kids these days will know or care about River Phoenix...
my husband, richard III, was called Rush from the time he was born and is/was never called richard except by telemarketers and teachers on the first day of school. so we would like to have a fun nickname ready for when the baby is born. though we do realize that it could evolve or change over time.
As far as standard names for a fourth child, I personally don't know of any. I looked on www.babynamesworld.com and under meaning=fourth found 5 names:
Anane-M-African:pron. Ah-NAH-neh
Delta-B-Greek:pron. DEL-ta
Raviya-M-Hebrew:pron. Rah-VEE-yah
Shirou-M-Japanese:pron. SHEE-ro