The Baby Name Wizard

O and Eo I would definately say La-boh-ra-tree, ive never even heard of the other pronounciation, and the letter Z is zed i suppose, do you mean as opposed to zee? or to zzz?

out of intrest how do americans prounounce aunty and half? these are the two that people seem to find my pronounciation of wierd. I would say an-tee and then haff past but harf a pint.
any other northern perspective would also be useful as where I live atm is in the Midlands and most people I come into contact with are from around here or further south.

Eo:

Thanks for your note about Scots and scones! That makes things clearer to me... as a girl in Canada I always heard "sconn" around me, yet my grandmother (born in England to southern English parents) always called them "scoans", so I assumed vaguely that "scoan" was British and "sconn" North American. Other people's insistence on the opposite always confused me. I guess both pronunciations are originally from Britain, and while many Canadians say "sconn" due to our heavily Scottish heritage, most Americans use the more intuitive southern English "scoan". Of course, of course!

As far as the other words you mention: yes, SHED-yule is losing ground to SKED-jel here, and though Lieutenant is still officially "lef", I've even heard TV newscasters say "loo" (a pet peeve of mine... do they not train these people?). Fortunately, zed is still alive and well as our national Canadian shibboleth!

EssBee: Galadriel - what a wonderful middle name to have! I've never met one before. My best friend from elementary school, who was a big fantasy novel fan, always swore she'd name her daughter Galadriel... but she's only ever had a boy (and fortunately for him, didn't name him Aragorn).

This talk of Thomas and Timothy (specifically the too-close similarity b/t Tom(my) and Tim(my)) is fascinating b/c my father is Thomas (as mentioned ^^) and my brother is Timothy! Tom and Tim can be confusing, and to add to it, my father and brother (and now nephew) share identical initials.

Busy week so tuning in a little late but... The accent thing is a lot of fun. I'm from MA but I deal with people from all over the country (and the world, but they don't ask about my accent as much). The people who aren't from New England though ask me why I don't have a Boston accent all the time. It's amusing, because most of the people I know don't have Boston accents. The quiz map shows "neutral" as being sort of upper middle of the country, but there are a lot of neutrally-accented people around here, that's for sure!

As to the vague and bag discussion, I'm still confused (I say them differently), but it's fun try and find ways to say them the same!

Re: Georgiana (a name I love and totally think people should use!) I understand why Georgiana could be George-yana, but I don't see how it becomes George-ayna. I connect this name with Pride and Prejudice and I feel like in the movies they still say Georg-i-ana, am I remembering wrong? For the record I also like Georgina or Georgette. Which is weird because I don't like the boys name George at all...

justrachelmarie- Love Coraline, I think it's such a pretty, fresh sound! I'm very interested to see where this name goes. I also really like Thomas Edward and Gabriel James, they sound very classy, with lots of nn's and lots of history!

Goldenpigmom- Lorien is really pretty and a more subtle tribute which is a nice way to do that, I think they hit that perfectly.

My husband's good friend Tim also has a brother named Tom and a father named Tom. Luckily we haven't found this confusing but maybe that's because we are only close to Tim!

ET- I find it amusing that the only country that says the letter Z "zee" and not "zed" is the US (I'm right on that, correct?). I do know what "zed" is but more from studying French than anything else. And I think most (all?) Americans say half always as haff (never heard of harf before) but aunty I say both an-tee and awn-tee, it depends on what comes after it I think. Just like I use two pronunciations of either depending on the rest of the sentence. I assume this is all pretty standard in the US, well maybe not the aunty thing, anyone else want to chime in?

MelissaM- I don't recall what your other son's name is and I didn't ahve a chance to go back and look at the list of family names already in use. But, I want to put Peter (Peter James?) out as a suggestion. I really like this name for classics or solid names. But, my husband won't consider it saying that the baby would get teased as badly as if he had the nn Dick. I don't see it because of my associations with the name, but he's firm on this, so no Peters for me.
I, too, like Thomas Edward. What about Theodore James. I think Theo and Teddy are super cute, but my husband doesn't. Again, a good name gone to waste for us.

MelissaM--I think Edward James would be a nice name, and if you don't like Ed/die, you could always go with Ted. Thomas and Edward sound good together; and Tom and Ted, while a little bit matchy, are much better than Tom and Tim!

there are people who say lef-ten-ant? oh my. i've never heard anything but loo-ten-ant. my american neutral accent reels in shock!

oh, and i definitely pronounce half as "haff" and i don't actually use the term "aunty" (generally just "aunt"), but if i did, it would be an-tee.

what is the rule where the pronunciation of either depends on the sentence following? i'm interested!

Eo- Yes, you're right on all counts! As a Brit living in the States, I find new ones everyday. For example, Americans say APP-lic-uble and Brits say ah-PLIC-uble, US- ADD-ress and UK- uh-DRESS. Oh and RAZZ-berr-y and RAHS-bree. It's great fun, if occasionally mind-altering!

Oh, and emilyrae- definitely lef-TEN-ant. No idea why, but there you are!

@EmilyRae #159:

Technically, "Lef-tenant" is the *correct* pronunciation, as it evolved from the french ("lieu(v)tenant" as though it has a silent "v/f" sound). Try not to sound shocked - Canadians just have historically had more linguistic authenticity. We can't help it.

Hmm, I live at my ADD-res, but i'd uh-DRESS a letter. And I switch between AP-plic-uble and ah-PLIC-uble. But RAHS-bree and lef-TEN-ant are new to me!

I was Western in the accent quiz (grew up in Nebraska-- not Western to me), it told me I needed to learn to say stalk and stock differently to be neutral, but they are the same unless I force it!

for the sister to future OT boys, I thought the OT girls name Zipporah cool (love that name, but not for my own children)

In general, with the boys names discussion, I like a lot of the classic names-- but really dislike most of the nn's. Example: love Michael, Jacob, Thomas, Edward, James. Dislike Ted, Tim, Mike, Tom, Jim and Jamey.

well! now i know! that is very interesting. now that i'm thinking about it, i'm pretty sure that i HAVE heard lef-TEN-ant and did not realize it was lieutenant. i thought it was a completely separate word/military ranking!

also, i actually use both ADD-ress and uh-DRESS. i use the former as a noun and the latter as a verb.

I love Brits way of saying aluminum. I say ah-loo-min-um. Brits say al-lih-min-ium. Did I get that right? I also love vitamin. I say vigh-tih-min. Brits say vit-ah-min. Parliamentary- Brits say every syllable (par-lah-men-tair-ee). Here, we say par-lah-men-tree) As for address- for Americans, it depends on if it's being used as a noun or a verb for the pronunciation. That happens a lot like with the word "content". I am content to look at the Table of Contents.

LOTR- when the movies first came out, I heard on the news two sisters named Arwen and Eowyn. Neither girl knew exactly where their name was from (had not read the books) and were excited to see the movies to "meet" their namesakes. I like Arwen, but Eowyn would be a stretch with my Germanic ln.

Valerie- I'm with Knp on living at an ADD-ress but uh-DRESSing a letter. And I actually always use uh-PLIC-uble. I wonder why we started saying Lieutenant with the "Lou" here though?

emilyrae- I don't know that there's an official rule but I would say "I don't like that either (eee-ther)." But "Either (EYE-ther) we go to the store now or we go later." So maybe it's somewhat tied to the beginning or end of a sentence? It just sort of depends on what feels right to me at the moment! That said I don't think I'd notice most of the time if people did it differently.

It's a little like "the" which was two pronunciations (thee or thuh) although there IS a rule on that. I don't know exactly what it is, I just know when it sounds wrong.

And again for all of this my accent is "american neutral.":)

with "the", i believe it's pronounced "thuh" before a consonant and "thee" before a vowel. thuh cat and thee apple.

i'm going to investigate the either issue...

is it geeky that i find all of this incredibly fascinating? :]

emilyrae et al-I don't think its "geeky" that we all are interested in this pronunciation thing as words/names/pronunciations all go together. My gpa used to say Ah-loo-min-i-um. I think the lef-ten-ent thing is curious also. Don't those stem from German pronunciations? Its odd though because we don't say "in lef of" rather for "in lieu of". Oh and I say "AP-lic-able" but it doesn't bother me when I hear the other version. There is a word I hear newscasters say differently but I can't remember it right now. Always bugs me though.

Aunt vs. ant; uh-dress vs. add-ress; ee-ther vs. eye-ther; razz-berry vs. rasp-burry don't bother me as they are different for different uses or just regional differences I'm already used to.

MelissaM, I would suggest that you not choose two names (or a name & nn) for your twins that begin with the same letter. I've found with my twin grandsons James and Andrew that even though these boys are fraternal twins, many times others will say they can't tell them apart (the boys look very different from each other except for both having dark hair). I think having matchy names like Tom and Tim or Tommy and Teddy would just add to the confusion. On the other hand, having less obviously matching names gives each boy a stronger sense of himself as an individual. And as a practical matter, when the twins end up wanting the same shoes or other article of clothing, I can quickly mark a 'J' or 'A' on a label to help each of them see which belongs to him.

My daughter had James picked out for her baby, and when she learned there were TWO, she immediately thought of Jacob. I told her that they're really the same name (James is a form of Jacob) and encouraged her to name the second boy something more distinct.

(A few days ago I met a mother of 6 whose youngest children are 15-year-old twins called James and Jacob. I didn't say a word. ;-) )

Well, the reason we say al-oo-MIN-ee-um is because we spell it differently- aluminium.

How about controversy? Brits say con-TROV-er-see, and I think Americans say CON-tro-ver-sy. Or is that controversial? ;) It's getting harder to remember as I've been here seven years now.

What always strikes me as funniest about Brit pronunication is the 'a' and 'er' endings on words being almost reversed.

For example: the name Peter, at least among my aunt and uncle and cousins, comes out more as "Pete-ah", whereas my name, Jessica, is "Jess-i-kerr".

Also--in the quiz the question about pasta made me laugh. That one makes me crazy! How do people who take a bAHth, eat pasta (with a flat a), whereas Americans who take a bath, eat pAHsta? Same with tAHco v. tack-o for the word "taco" too!

MelissaM, what about Ned as a nn for Edward? No confusion then with Tom!

I love all this pronunciation discussion. Fascinating! I was totally thrown by the lef-TEN-ant, though. So much so I didn't even know what word Eo was referring to until someone else wrote out lieutenant.

Valerie, you're right, Americans do say CON-tro-ver-sy rather than con-TROV-er-sy. Not controversial at all!

Anne with an E, can I take a stab at that one? Pasta and taco are both "foreign" words, and it seems to me that Americans have more often adopted something closer to the native pronunciation of those words than the Brits (Italian and Spanish would both use the "ah" sound there)--another example that jumps to mind is Nicaragua (nick-ar-AH-gwa vs. nick-ar-AG-yoo-ah). Am I off, or have others noticed this as a trend? Are there other examples?

hyz- I think you're right about that. In Britain they also say Bar-ACK Obama instead of -AHK. In fact many of them are still saying BA-rack!

And the car is a JAG-you-ah.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! Here are the ones I'm dwelling on:

Caroline - have always liked, but doesn't stand out

Keziah, Junia, Damaris - the most interesting to me of the Biblical suggestions - FYI Valerie, I have nothing against NT names, I just find I like the Hebrew language better in general.

Louisa, Hester, Pearl, Verity - Akaya, you give good suggestions! I even sort of like Harriet, but probably not enough to use it.

Beatrix - interesting, but seems to be on its way to trendiness (or is it just the sites I visit?)

Antonia - growing on me

Seraphina - too Hollywood?

Eo, I'm trying to like Augusta but I just can't. The only form of the August- names I really like is Augustin for a boy.

I generally find it takes a few weeks of saying names in my head to decide whether I really like them or was just momentarily intrigued. So, I may be back in the near future for more advice!

That's perfectly all right, MGH-- it's a bit of an acquired taste, if at all! I did think of two other names that are stately, and compatible with interesting boys' Biblical names-- "Claudia" and "Eliza".

ET (not logged in)-- I also say "ant" and "AN-tee" for "aunt". Where I'm from, the "awnt" pronunciation would be considered an affectation, even though it isn't, for some people. There are pockets of people in North America who do say "awnt".

That's fascinating, Ayaka. I imagine that Peter Mansbridge is sticking with "lef" and "shed"! It's always fun to track the pronunciation of Canadian TV reporters who are now working for U.S. channels, like Catherine Herridge of Fox News Channel, and John (formerly J.D.!) Roberts of CNN...

I can't resist adding, Valerie, that renegades like me who are NOT in the "Glow-bama" also like to call him something akin to "Berrick" or even more cheekily, "Barry" ("Berry" in my accent) to express our impotent NON-infatuation...

MelissaM - Not sure if this has already been suggested to you, but what about the name Samuel for one of your twins? It fits in with your other sons' names and would work with Thomas and sounds lovely with James as a middle name. I am biased though, because Samuel (Sam) is my son's name. I especially love it paired with Alexander as a sib-set (which I see is one of your older sons' names).

And speaking of varying pronunciation of names, here's a question: Ever since encountering the name "Tarquin", after reading that Lawrence Olivier's first son was named this, I've liked both the look and sound of this Roman clan name.

In my head, I said "TAR-kwin". But recently heard it was pronounced "TAR-kin". That is correct, is it not? I should have known, but my checkered education did not include Latin, unfortunately.

I still like it, but slightly less than formerly...

I have a friend living outside of London and she reported that after the American election she was completely confused to overhear many conversations about Alabama (but abbreviated 'Bama). It took her a while to realize that she was hearing people referring to Obama!

Eo: J.D.Roberts... LOL! There's a blast from my big-hair teenage years. I've heard that he's a bigwig journalist on CNN now, but I never watch CNN so I've never seen him... I hope he's not still wearing acid wash denim! It's interesting to me how some Canadians in Hollywood will lose their Canadian accent and assimilate to Californian (e.g. Michael J Fox), and others just can't shake it, eh.

Anne with an E: What's this about pronouncing pasta as 'pah-sta'? Are you saying that's a mainstream American pronunciation?? Really, everywhere? Here, I think 'pah-sta' would be considered affected (unless you're speaking Italian)... sort of like 'ahn-tee' for Auntie or 'rahs-bree' for raspberry.

(We do, however, pronounce Barack correctly! I think.)

whoa, whoa! i don't want to burst in again with another incredulous post, but is there another way people say pasta other than pah-sta? i have never heard anything other than that (i live in the midwest, for reference).

Eo-- I like Tarquin a lot. Onto my list! I've found it online as both pronunciations...as well as tar-keen. I like tar-kwin better too, I think.

emilyrae: I've always pronounced pasta like the word "past", with an A on the end. Nice and simple! I have heard 'pah-sta', like on The Sopranos or in East Side Mario's commercials, but I've always just assumed that's imitating Italian. I would never say that myself, unless I was lapsing into a Tony Soprano accent...

I also grew up saying 'drama' with the same vowel, sort of rhyming with 'Grandma'. Now I'm hearing 'drah-ma' more and more, which sounds suitably more dramatic. So maybe we'll lose our good old fashioned Canadian pass-ta too, in favour of la bella pah-sta americana.

Sad in a way, how mass media erodes regional accents away, especially in urban areas! These days, you can travel from Los Angeles to Boston to Atlanta to Chicago to Toronto and barely notice a difference in the accents.

ayaka,
so interesting! do you think maybe it's a canadian thing? i am sure there are people here that say past-a, as you do, but i have never heard it. that is so interesting, though. i would agree that "ahnt" and "rahs-bree" would sound affected (at least in my area), but "pah-sta" is very much the norm. crazy!

I know of past-ah in the UK, but where is it "past-ah" in the US? Being a "neutral", I can confidently tell you that pah-sta is the only pronunciation I am used to. I have heard some people in my region say "EYE-tal-yen" instead of "ih-TAL-yen" for Italian--I wonder if they would also say "past-ah"...?

ETA: oh, I just remembered you're Canadian. So that makes sense, then.

I think drah-ma/dram-ah is another good example.

LOL you all are keeping me smiling today! Pasta in my mind is Pah-sta the "a" sounding more like the "o" in pot SORT OF. When I say Past-a it sounds forced and strange.

MGH-How about Agatha? All this A vs. O sounds in words plus the mention of Augusta got me to thinking it. And how, back to names, does everyone pronounce THAT? Aw-gus-ta/aw-GUS-ta/Uh-gus-ta/uh-gus-TA??? AAAAA-guh-tha is how I say the other (to rhyme with PAST-uh)LOL!

Really! I'm totally surprised by the pasta thing. I never imagined that as a particularly Canadian pronunciation... we always think of 'out' and 'about' and 'house' and 'mouse'.

Now I'm trying to think of similar words. Good grief, do we pronounce 'Alaska' wrong? (Think now, how did Sarah Palin pronounce it? Surely not a-lah-ska?? Tina Fey said a-layyya-ska...)

Agatha has the accent on the first syllable so it's easier: AGG-uh-thuh. (Now if you're one of those folks who pronounce 'bag' and 'vague' the same... I guess Agatha is the same too?) Augusta is aw-GUS-ta.

As an American Neutral, I definitely say pah-sta, drah-ma, haff, ant (or anty, which I would never say), and razz-berry. However, my daughter, a native downstate New Yorker, prefers awnt to ant.

I pronounce Augusta as uh-GUS-ta and Agatha as you do, zoerhenne.

As an American Neutral, I definitely say pah-sta, drah-ma, haff, ant (or anty, which I would never say), and razz-berry. However, my daughter, a native downstate New Yorker, prefers awnt to ant.

I pronounce Augusta as uh-GUS-ta and Agatha as you do, zoerhenne.

Alaska is Uh-LASS-kah, like alas, with kah at the end, lol. It rhymes with Nebraska.

Sooo glad to hear people say they don't think Clara's necessarily getting too popular. Its so hard to focus on the statistics while hearing some names pop up so much on NE boards! I worry though that any name that pops up a lot is bound to be one of the next year's fast risers, appearing to most of the world "out of nowhere," when people who peruse the boards aren't surprised in the slightest.

I'm a northerner accent, but my parents and siblings are living in England now and have developed some of the funny accents that have been mentioned above! Its so funny chatting with my mom on the phone when she doesn't realize she's lapsed into past-ahs, etc.

My sister is expecting and is actually moving over to northern England in the Fall. Aside from all the accent conversation, I'm most interested in the fact that they're picking names that are still quirky and not over used here, but that are pretty popular over there as far as I know... like Ruby? I think its #2 over there! They're going to be shocked!

About a year ago we had a similar conversation about the "a" in pasta, drama, etc. There has been a change in the way North Americans pronounce certain vowels over time.

There was a time when even Yanks pronounced drama like "ham-a", believe it or not! I used the example of Jack Benny on his radio show saying it that way, and even allowing for his Midwestern regionalisms, that was the pretty widespread pronunciation for the time.

(Few people here were discussing pasta much in the 1930's-- they would have said spaghetti, no?) but it would have taken the same flat "a" I imagine.

The vowel shift took place gradually and many Americans now do the "ah" thing. It drives me insane when Barry says "Pahkistahn"-- it sounds so contrived to my ears!

Canadians have been more reluctant to make the shift, and many still do say pasta like the "a" in castaway. My late, adored mother even used to say Frank Sinatra with the "nat" rhyming with "hat"-- for which we used to tease her unmercifully! I find it charming.

If it was good enough for Jack Benny and Orson Welles, it's good enough for me. Hold onto those flat "a"'s wherever you can, is my credo!

Eo-that's interesting Pakistan to me is the only thing I do say with the "flat/hat/cat a" like Pack-a-stan. and why do Brits say "mum" instead of mom.

Laughing so much reading all the pasta comments. I say pass-ta but I say past as pah-st.

The Americanism that always makes me laugh is 'erb as in 'erb tea. Why 'erb? Why not herb? Does it amuse you when we Brits say herb?
And Valerie I remember when we were teenagers together making fun (sorry!) of your American pronounciation of perfume and garage.

Guest - yes, your sister will find Ruby very popular in the UK.

@Keren--as an American, yes I find herb with the H pronounced quite funny, as I do the British pronunciation of basil.

Glad to know that I'm not the only one who's weirded out by past-a as opposed to pAHsta! Blew my mind the 1st time I was in England!

and @Eo, I noticed the other day on NPR that Obama said PAH-kistan, but Afgh-ann-istan. It seems like it should be all one or the other, either PAH-kistan and AfghANnistan, or both with the flat A, it sounds funny to mix the two.

Someone mentioned Zipporah - I actually know a two-year-old Zipporah. Her parents call her Zippy! It is the most adorable nickname I've ever heard for a very cute and energetic little girl.

Melissa A. (nice name, by the way!) we do like the name Samuel, but using it would be messy, creating a namesake for someone we're not sure we want to name a child after. Too bad, too, as it is quite a good name.

Gabriel is growing on me. ET hit on my secret vanity with her comment about 'literary' baby names! I wasn't sure how I felt about Thomas and Gabriel as a Biblical pair, but call them literary and suddenly they're that much more appealing. (I do like to think of myself as literary, despite the fact that the last book I read was a Terry Pratchett novel. Clara and Lucy were intended to be in part subtle nods to The Nutcracker and The Chronicles of Narnia, respectively.) I don't know. We may stay with Gabriel, but I'm keeping my ears open in case the perfect name comes along. I've got a few months left, after all.

eo,
out of curiosity, if pAHkistan bothers you, how do you feel about iRAHn and iRAHq? do they also bother you?

anne with an e--i agree that mixing the two is a bit strange.

i respect the fact that it used to be standard here to pronounce pasta and drama with the short a sound (thanks for the history, eo!), but even knowing that, i don't think i could pronounce them that way. it just sounds so odd to my ears!

What a fascinating conversation!

Eo: I think you'll have to be careful throwing out Pah-ki-stahn, someone else might toss back "nucular"! ;)

I have to admit (and this from one of the countless millions of non-Americans worldwide who would gladly trade her own crop of annoying, uninspiring political leaders for President Barry), I think Pah-ki-stahn etc. seem a little pretentious. I don't believe the usual English/American pronunciation of a country's name shows any disrespect. (Are we supposed to call Germany "Deutschland" and China "Zhongguo"?)

On the other hand... that's one of the great (and infuriating) things about the English language... it's basically unregulated. I say tomayto, you say tomahto - there's no right or wrong.

(Unless, of course, it's your name. And I have every right to say, it's AH-ya-ka, darnit, not ay-YAK-uh.)

ay-YAK-uh, oh my! ha! that would be an infinitely inferior pronunciation of your name!

i see what is being said about the pretentious thing with various name countries, and i think i probably felt that way initially, but the effect of hearing it over and over on the news has lessened it considerably and it no longer bothers me (though i think i personally still say pakistan, iraq, iran, etc with a short A sound). what REALLY gets me is when my friend talks about chee-lay (chile). i know that is the actual pronunciation of chile, but it just drives me mad! it feels a little affected...

emilyrae: LOL! Another example is Quebec. There are some English-speakers in Canada who insist on pronouncing it "kay-bec" as in French, presumably to show off that they're bilingual or somehow progressive. Yet the French-Canadians I know are always careful to pronounce it "kwuh-beck" in the English fashion when speaking English, so no one will think their English is poor...