In my last post, "Sharing the Choice," I talked about the value of parents sharing and compromising in baby name decisions. Among the examples of non-sharing I mentioned was this occasional refrain:
“I figure he gets the surname so I should get the first name, it’s only fair.”
Not surprisingly, some of you called me on it. Isn't it "only fair"? In the words of one reader:
"You gloss over the fact that the last name is still a 'solo domain.' Very few children (especially of married parents) have the mother's birth surname as their last name. Even if the mother has a beautiful, easy to spell surname, the children inevitably get the father's name, even if it's harsh-sounding and impossible to spell. When is there going to be a discussion about women being automatically cut out of that naming picture?"
So let me clarify.
I don't think giving up first-name rights because you "get" the surname is a natural tradeoff, because I consider first and last name decisions fundamentally different. The choice of a surname is about relationships, roles, traditions, and power. The choice of a first name is about individual identity.
In my years in the name business I have never, ever heard a parent say something like, "We're totally stuck on surnames. He wants Picard after Captain Picard, and I want Bronte after Charlotte Bronte." I've never seen an expectant mom's face light up in delight as she describes why she chose the surname Fenstermacher for her baby. And I've never heard a dad worry that if they name the baby Jessica, people will think she's not his child.
Sure, you can decide to trade first name rights for surname rights. You can also trade name rights for, say, the right to choose your next car, or responsibility for 4 AM feedings. Personally, though, I wouldn't do it. A first name is a unique bridge between you and your child, and between your child and the world. Nothing else really compares. Plus both parents are going to be saying this name countless times every day, so they'd both better like it.
Now, about those surnames. In my personal circle of friends and acquaintances I've seen an incredible variety of responses to the surname challenge:
- The woman took the man's surname after marriage.
- The man took the woman's surname after marriage.
- The woman hypenated her surname after marriage, the man didn't.
- Both of them hyphenated their surnames after marriage.
- Both of them changed to a whole new surname, created out of parts of the two original names.
- Both of them changed to a different family surname that would have otherwise died out.
- Both kept their own surnames, and the kids were given the dad's name.
- Both kept their own surnames, and the kids were given hyphenated names.
- Both kept their own surnames, and the kids were given a new surname created from the two parents' surnames.
- Both kept their own surnames and the sons got dad's surname, daughters mom's surname.
Doubtless there are even more creative permutations that I haven't encountered. (Please do share!) The right choice for an individual family depends on how you weigh many competing values. But whatever your approach to surnames, I'd suggest trying to work out the family identity before it's time to start shaping your kids' individual identities. It's better to have two shared decisions than two offsetting resentments.
Comments
zoerhenne-- you're probably right about it being a general "woman who is married" title, but I had always understood it to mean "wife of HisLastName" and not commonly taken alongside a woman's maiden name. I just googled it and found this paragraph from answers.com:
" Usage
“Mrs.” may be used to replace a woman's own last name with the husband’s last name, e.g. “Mrs. Smith”, or with his full name: e.g. “Mrs. John Smith”. A widow may be addressed as Mrs, followed by her late husband's full name. Mrs. is not generally used before a woman's own last name nor before a last name that differs from her husband's, such as if she has hyphenated her surname and he has not. For example, “Mrs. Jane Miller” (wife of John Smith) or “Mrs. Jane Miller-Smith” is considered incorrect by many etiquette writers, especially of the early 20th century."
Saying "Mrs." before a woman's name feels awkward to me. At my office, correspondence is always address as "Ms.", never "Mrs." At my daughter's preschool, the teacher is always Miss FN (e.g., Miss Lisa), regardless of whether she is married. Hence, it threw me for a loop to have my daughter's kindergarten teacher be called Mrs. Moore. I kept wanting to say either Ms. Moore or Miss Moore. Mrs. just wouldn't roll off the tongue! I would be fine with getting rid of Mrs. all together.
A friend's grandmother actually signs her name on letters and on checks (!) as Mrs. L. C. Hartward. The L. C. stands for "Lesbia C0lumbia"--I think I'd try to stay as far away as possible from THAT! (L. C. is her husband's name.)
Around here, very few children call adults by anything other than their first names or Mr. first name, Ms. first name (Mr. Rob or Ms. Cindy, for example). A few years ago I was at a playground with my daughter. A little boy asked me my name and not knowing how he referred to adults, and not wanting to offend his mom who was sitting nearby by being too informal, I said, "Mrs. T--". He looked at me with a puzzled expression and said, "Are you a teacher?"
Ha! Tirzah, you posted while I was writing and get to my point exactly. It felt really weird for me to refer to myself as Mrs., something I rarely do (maybe two or three times in nine years!). The kid's reaction cracked me up.
My aunt had to deal with the problem of what kids should call her twenty years ago, when it was less common for women to keep their own names. A kindergarten teacher insisted that she should be Mrs. Herhusband's/son'sLastname when she went to help with a project. My aunt said that wasn't her name. The teacher said the children needed call her that because otherwise it would confuse them too much to call her "Ms. Herlastname." She answered that the kids could call her "Michael's mother"--accurate, and the relevant connection in the case, particularly for 5 year olds who might not have known Michael's lastname anyway. I've always liked the solution and use it now. I guess my feelings might change when my son is older but so far so good.
This discussion about surname choice has been really fascinating to read. What really surprises me, and pleasantly so, is that it doesn't seem to be a polarized issue at all. Almost all of you who have shared your stories seem to have struggled with the question to some extent, and haven't reached a decision without admitting some benefits to doing it the other way. It's actually really refreshing to hear such tolerance of ambiguity.
I've recently had to make this decision myself - I got married last summer. I originally thought that I would just take my husband's name - I had just always imagined I would, and I didn't feel especially attached to my maiden name (because I'd always identified far more with my mom and her family than my dad and his). I had also, as someone else mentioned, welcomed the opportunity to reinvent myself. Then, eight months before my wedding, my dad unexpectedly died. I found myself very torn when it came time to really make the decision - I had already told my husband that I would take his name, it meant a lot to him, I liked the idea of a unified family surname, his name is short and simple. On the other hand, I suddenly felt as if giving up my father's name so soon after his death was erasing what connection with him I had left. In the end, I took my husband's name and dropped my maiden name to a second middle name (I like my first middle name and didn't want to lose that either).
I still second-guessed myself a bit about taking my husband's name, but I find that I'm actually starting to get used to this solution, mainly because it gives me a lot of flexibility. I can be who I want to be depending on my mood and circumstance - it doesn't matter what my legal name is. When I have kids, I can be Mrs. MarriedName to their friends and not get annoyed. When my forgetful boss refers to me as FirstName MaidenName, I don't bother correcting him. I sign all my correspondence FirstName MaidenName MarriedName, and my email addresses are still maidenname@. Where it is more convenient to just use the very simple and familiar married name alone (i.e. speaking with strangers over the phone), I do that. It seems like the inconsistency might be confusing, but I haven't actually encountered any problems with it.
Our kids will have my husband's last name, and I am considering whether to add my maiden name as a second middle name. My husband isn't thrilled with the idea because he thinks that multiple middle names sound pretentious. Not sure yet how we'll solve that one.
Mirnada, I totally absolutely love Delilah. She could be Lila for short. Sooooo pretty!! I have thought of it before, but worried what my religious mother might have to say, LOL! Delilah Leaf - what do the rest of you think of this name?
P.S. I just checked with hubby and, amazingly, he loves Delilah too! So it is worth considering...
Leafy, the 'lai la lee' sound in the middle strikes me a little much with the L sound. What about Claudia Leaf? Helena [HEL-eh-na] Leaf? Eleanor Leaf?
Leafy,
I love your back-up choices, too! You have very sophisticated, timeless taste, I think.
Elodie Leaf-probably my favorite, because of the repeated 'l' sound.
Amelia Leaf- I like this one, too. It sounds soft and airy, as someone else commented.
Your first choice is still lovely, though. Do you call your 'bump' Thea? I just wonder because it would seem to me that a baby can begin growing into her name even before birth.
Oh-- I forgot to say that, while the name Delilah is beautiful (and Lila is a very cute nn), I can't quite get away from the Biblical connotations.
I kept my last name when I married. I only changed it to my husband's name moving my maiden name to the middle name slot after the birth of my daughter. Changing a name outside of a marriage contract is a giant pain in the neck!
I still use my original first name and maiden last name combination at work though. I'm like a Hollywood star with a work name and social name =)
I do agree that the familiarity/comfort with "alternative" surname choices probably varies from region to region and circle of acquaintances to circle of acquaintances. But I don't think that that openness to surnaming possibilities is an exclusively urban thing.
I grew up in a very small rural community (pop. under 1000) in the Great Plains that tended to be quite conservative politically and theologically. Just to give you some context of how rural I'm talking: we were 40 miles from the nearest Wal-Mart and probably 100 miles from the nearest Starbucks. Yet, of my friends who I grew up with and who have married in recent years, probably 3 or 4 couples have both hyphenated their names, several have simply kept their birth names, and, of those who have both used the husband's surname, the wife has always added her birth name as a second middle. All of us are college-educated, which I'm sure makes a difference, but I don't think that surnaming practices fall so easily along urban/rural (or red state/blue state) divides.
i can sympathize with those who would get rid of the mrs prefix altogether, but it surprises me that some of you find it strange to use. almost all the married women i know use it. however, i can see it being very strange at the begining of a marriage.
leafy,
i love that you have such varied taste (to me theodora and delilah are very different names--and i think that's a good thing!). i agree with the poster that said your taste in names is sophisticated and timeless. quite true. :] i agree that the biblical connotations of the name might be of some concern...but perhaps not much? i don't put delilah on the level of jezabel or lucifer or something like that. however, it's true that she wasn't a very nice lady... i don't know, i could see either point of view. either way, i do think it is a very pretty name. the lai-la-lee sounds are there but i think it is either a strength or a weakness depending on one's taste.
Leafy: What wonderful names you have on your list... too bad it's such an awkward sort of surname to match with! Clementine Leaf: leaf of the clementine tree? Scarlett Leaf: autumn colours tourist brochure? Sigh... My favorite (aside from Theodora nn Thea, very charming!) would be Elodie, which is strikingly bright and cheerful. I also like Amelia with your surname. Delphine is lovely but I don't care for the repeated F and long EE sounds with your surname (ditto for Sophia - though Sophie would flow better, and you do seem to like French names). Delilah Leaf is awfully L-heavy, a bit of a tongue twister. So - another vote for Elodie.
As for the whole Mrs. Hisname Lastname thing... ugh! I can't believe people still think that's appropriate in the 21st century. But that's just the sort of thing my mother would get worked up about, addressing envelopes with a copy of Miss Manners Obsolete Etiquette Guide in hand. Does anyone under 60 really care if their mail is addressed with a title like Mr. or Mrs. or not? And more importantly... why should arcane rules of address etiquette from the 19th century be more important than actually asking your individual correspondents how they wish to be addressed?
We did something that I think is relatively common: DH kept his surname, I kept mine, the kids got his surname with my surname as their middle name. We wanted to avoid the sometimes cumbersome hyphenation/double last name issue but still have my surname as part of their legal name. Works for us ;)
In NL where my eldest was born, you can choose either the father's or mother's surname for your child but all other children from those parents must share the same surname. It is also against the naming law to have a surname as a middle name but we were able get away with it because we were foreigners.
@Anna (#129)
What's interesting to me is that I don't feel that way about it (the broken-home thing) when I look at another family that has a hodgepodge of last names. I don't want to assume anything - It's more common to see the types of combos LW mentioned and keeping-the-maiden-name than it used to be.
Growing up I was somewhat self-conscious (because they were divorced) about giving my mom's name and dad's name as separate, and especially correcting people who assumed my mom was Mrs. Glice. It's about how I think other people will perceive my family - not at all related to how I perceive another family and the choices they've made.
Sharing a last name seems symbolic of a strong marriage and partnership (to me, in my life, in my family, I have to stress). I don't pretend that this is the case for everyone else. To those who say, "Who cares what some stranger thinks?", well, some kids are sensitive to these things. Maybe I can brush it off as an adult, but it didn't feel right as a kid.
My children having my husband's name is, through an ingrained conception of a solid family, a way for me to feel safe and secure in my marriage.
More power to those who talk it out, pick what works for their family, and walk confidently with their choices. HisLastName will work for mine.
The reason why Mrs. isn't preferred (by me, at least, and I think many women), is because it is an unnecessary (especially in the professional world) indicator of whether a woman is married or not -- and it's an indicator that doesn't exist for men. Whether a woman is married or not is irrelevant in formal situations and shouldn't be a determining factor of how much or how little respect she receives -- and her whole identity shouldn't have to change once she is married. That's the idea behind "Ms.", I think. I do remember, though, when I was in elementary school, not liking that my second grade teacher went by Ms. Brown when all the other teachers I had went by "Mrs." It's funny to remember that.
When some telemarketer or something calls me Mrs. it instantly grates on me...and it seems very retro. Maybe that becomes much more prevalent and harder to avoid when your kid is in school. I don't know that I'll want to have to make a point of it and correct people all the time, though...I dunno.
so excited to hear the NPR guy mentioned cuz i hear it as Stevinsky, which i'm pretty sure is wrong... but i love to say it!
re: Marion: I love the spelling Marian.
I agree that Mr. and Mrs. HisFirst HisLast is outdated. I don't think I've heard this one applied to me... thankfully... Generally, I've learned to just let these sorts of things (being addressed as Robyn HisLastName) roll off my back. Picking battles and all that... oh also my husband's grandmother still is Mrs. HisFirstName HisLastName on mailing envelopes--and she's been a widow for at least ten years!
re: names affecting how we see ourselves: My children will be Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiian, English, Dutch, Portuguese, and something else I can never remember. Last name will be Japanese-English. It is very important to my husband that the child have a Hawaiian name because he says that the child will not look Hawaiian and will need this name to remember. I think this is coming from my husband's own experience.
not sure if you all read nameberry, but this post is related to the sharing the decision discussion: http://nameberry.com/blog/2009/06/17/the-baby-name-debates/
also, thought you might like this photo of personalized items taken in germany or switzerland (my friend went to both; not sure exactly where this was taken): http://www.flickr.com/photos/10931471@N03/3649385400/in/set-721576201565...
About surnames.. my mother took my father's very common German ln, and she anglicizes it both in pronunciation and in leaving the accent out when spelling it. This has always bothered me. I feel like she's disrespecting *my* name by not seeing it as important to her children who were raised in her country and culture, not her husband's. I feel like she should have kept her maiden name if she wasn't going to put the effort into wearing her married name. This was something that had never occurred to her until I explained why I felt that way. Not that it has stopped her, apparently convenience is still more important!
Here's a FN/LN dilemma for all of you NEs... We are in the process of adopting from S. Korea, and being an NE myself, I have been searching for the right name. We are looking for a first name that is accessible in the US culture but is "different" enough that people do not do a double take when they see our little guy's Korean face after seeing the name on paper.
It will be...
FN (?) MN (Korean) LN (like "Dietrich")
Last name is Germanic, easy to pronounce, but with a counterintuitive spelling...we have to spell it out almost every time, and sometimes two or three times before people get it right. So, we want a relatively "easy" FN.)
The middle name is unknown as yet, but we will keep part of our son's birth name. For the sake of discussion, lets say the MN will be Soo-Choi. It will likely be a two-word middle name, as Korean given names are usually two words and 2-3 syllables.
So...
_______ Soo-Choi Dietrich
What would you put in the FN slot? Current top choice is "Kai," since it could be seen as a variation of the Korean name combination "Ka-Yi." It's pushing our style preferences, but could grow on us. Some names we like in general are Paul, Peter, James, John, Clement, Gerard, Leo, Blaise, (and Ignatius and Isidore, but we don't want to go too far "out there"). I've considered Hugh/Hu, Kian/Ki-An, Ian/Yi-An or Kwan, but don't know if I really like any of them.
Thoughts?
Rose
P.S. Leafy, I really like Elodie Leaf. Elodie Theodora Leaf? Lovely...
RobynT - Great photo. Look at all the 'Bianka' for sale on that rack! You don't see that everyday :)
Lorien,
You could add Tai(Ty), which feels Asian.
Honestly, most Asian Americans have completely Anglo derived names like Mary, David, Grace, Esther, Henry, George, Jenny and Stephanie. Of the names you like (Paul, Peter, James, John, Clement, Gerard, Leo, Blaise), I know Asians with all of those names except Gerard and Blaise. I think people are going to be surprised to see an Asian with the last name Diedrich, regardless of what first name you give. I think the best you can do in view of your surname is to pick a name that's easy to spell and pronounce.
I would also stay way from ethnically distinctive first names since you already have an ethnically distinctive surname. Blaise is very French to me.
Lorien - I would just choose a name you love that Koreans can pronounce, that doesn't send the full name all over the map. After all, you will be his family, and he will be a part of your culture. I love keeping the 2 syllable given name part of the Korean name as the mn. (Will he have a name already or are you choosing a Korean name yourselves? I have been stockpiling Korean children's names from my students if you need any!) James, Peter or John would work fine for the first. Anything with an 'l' or 'r' or too many consonants together is a huge headache. Names like Alex, Daniel, Tom, Ben, Max, Sam, Michael sound good too. Congratulations btw!
A while ago I read a sci-fi book, "Humans," by Robert Sawyer, which imagines a parallel universe in which Earth is inhabited by Neanderthals rather than Homo sapiens. In the Neanderthal society, a child's father chooses the surname and the mother chooses the given name. Apparently, the surname is not "inherited" from either side of the family. The protagonist, Ponter Boddit, has a given name meaning "full moon," and his surname is the name of a city renowned for its painters.
Of course, Neanderthal parents might end up having to make some compromises anyway - otherwise their child might end up with two names that are fine separately, but don't work well together... like "golden snow."
Lorien - what's wrong with Leo? It souds like Lee, which is very Asian, is short and easy to spell and you like it. I love Kai, but it doesn't sound like your style.
Sorry about my earlier Ms.-related rant. Don't know what got into me.
It doesn't happen that often, but predictably often enough when social issues are addressed, and I'd like to register a faint demur:
It would be more pleasant to go through these interestingly diverse postings without hearing the condescending charge of "unconscious sexism" leveled at another participant.
I imagine we all have a variety of private reactions to the opinions we read here-- mine tend to be the opposite of the "brave new world" scenarios that are often presented! But a little civility in the give-and-take goes a long way...
The people here who predicted a fairly traditional set of choices for SJP and Matthew Broderick were right! I think both names are fun, and just slightly discordant enough with each other to be interesting.
"Tabitha" I like as one of those smooth Biblical names (Joshua, Samantha, etc.) which got re-energized in the Seventies. Although it could just as easily be considered a throwback to Puritan times, it does have that retro pop-culture "Bewitched" vibe...
I like both "Marion" (French, sophisticated) and "Marian" (forever associated with lovely, medieval, woodland-dwelling Maid Marian). They both do seem to belong (pleasantly) to, say, a young woman in the 1930's, and there comes the clash with 1970's Tabitha!
Loretta is not one of my favorites. Too frilly, but imagine it might have been a family name? The two family surname middle names-- Hodge and Elwell-- offer a nice individuality to each child.
James Wilkie, (anyone notice that he is often referred to by both names?) Marion and Tabitha. A nicely quirky set of sibs, especially for a celeb couple, I think.
i second leo!
Lorien: Is his Korean name one that could work?
Jae Ran Kim, adult adoptee has two posts on names:
http://harlowmonkey.typepad.com/harlows_monkey/2006/05/the_name_game.html
http://harlowmonkey.typepad.com/harlows_monkey/2006/05/the_name_game_p_1...
Kim, Eleana. “Wedding Citizenship and Culture: Korean Adoptees and the Global Family of Korea.” Social Text 12 (2003):57-81. Around page 70, there is a discussion of adoptees' experiences related to their names.
If you want to give an "Asian American" name, children of recent immigrants tend to have names from the older generation (e.g. the names of their parents' coworkers, as these are the "American" names they know.) Children of later generation (I'd say 3rd or 4th on), I think, have names that pretty much fit with trends of their peers.
I think Laura posted a list once of top cross-racial names...
Oh, you might also check current birth listings in areas with high Korean American/Asian American populations.
Lorien, I was thinking about your question, and the first few things I came up with are Dae and Jae, and (to a lesser extent) Chae. All of these are names that I believe may be used on their own by Korean men (the only one I haven't personally heard is Chae, but facebook is a great source to check things like this if you want). In fact, I know a Korean-American man who goes by Dae, and he and his wife adopted a Korean boy and named him Jae. I also know several other Korean-American men who just go by Dae or Jae. I think these are along the same lines as Kai, but may be better because they're actually used by Koreans. But Kai works fine for your purposes, too, I think. Lee is also a great choice for something like this--it's a common Korean surname, a fairly common element in 2 part names, and comes off to the general public as possibly Asian, but possibly not.
Leafy-
fwiw I like Elodie best, but I do go from Elodie to the nn Ellie possibly to another nn LeeLee (what I hear when I say Ellie Leaf). I think it's really cute but definitely distinct so it might not fit what you want. I find a similar cadence and almost sing-songy-ness to Delilah Leaf - Lye-La-Lee. It feels good to say, I like the repetitive Ls but my opinions are not always mainstream.
RobynT--thanks for posting those links, by the way--very relevant to this discussion, and interesting!
Re: being addressed as Mrs. I never voluntarily use this, instead opting for Ms, which I pronounce identically to Miss. I, too, think we could safely jettison Mrs nowadays. I do have a co-worker (who's about 10 yrs younger than I am) who routinely addresses me as Mrs. I think he means it to be lightly joking, but I find myself feeling as though I've instantly aged 25 yrs when he says it.
Leafy, I think my faves on your back-up list are Laura or Amelia. I like many of the others, but don't like them as much with your ln.
Tirzah- Ty is certainly a possiblity. I had strongly considered Paul or John as both of those seem to be common Asian American names, particularly John for Koreans. I totally agree about avoiding a FN that has yet another totally different ethnic connotation, such as Blaise does.
Bianca: I would LOVE that list of names you have. Is it short enough to post here? We do not have a formal match with a child yet, though I expect to soon, possibly within a week, so I don't have a particular Korean name in mind. We will keep his birth name as the MN unless it is a name that truly does not transfer well (ie. an inappropriate word in English).
Keren and emilyrae: I really liked Leo, especially since "Oh" is a Korean name: Li-Oh. Then I looked up the true Korean pronunciation that is Anglicized as Lee. It is more along the lines of "EE" or "Ree," so a Korean native speaker would not be able to say "Leo" quite the same way. As someone with a background in linguistics, that really bothered me. Same problem with Hugh/Hu. Kai still concerns me a bit, but the English long "I" sound is a dipthong that encompasses the ah-ee sound of the Korean names Ka and Yi. It's a bit of a stretch, so I'm still struggling with whether I find that acceptable. Regarding Leo, I'm also afraid it will evoke an Italian/German person on paper.
RobynT: Thank you for the links; those were quite useful. I have internationally adopted siblings, and we were able to find names for them that fit quite well in both cultures and balance out their LN, which is also strongly ethnic. Once we are matched with a particular little boy, I'll have his name to work with, and perhaps it will cross cultures well.
I'm probably overstressing on this a bit. DH just feels strongly that we need to keep his birth name as a MN (or part of the name somewhere, if it happens to be a name that will work well in the FN slot), and he doesn't really have a strong preference about the rest of the name (funny, that situation was just discussed in Laura's last post...)
Thank you for the input!
Oh, Lorien, another thing--it seems to me that one of your principal concerns is that people will see the name "Paul Dietrich" or whatever before meeting your son, and be surprised when they meet a very Korean looking person. One way you could help address this problem is to do what my husband and I did with our daughter--leave the Korean name in the FN spot, put your preferred Anglo name in the MN spot, and use that as the name you call him every day. So, at the doctor's office, on resumes, applications, first day of school, etc., people will see Soo-choi P. Dietrich. They will initially call him by that name, and he (or you, at first) will then have the chance to say, "yes, that's me, but I go by Paul." Or whatever. He will still feel a strong connection to his Korean name that way, and may even choose later in life to go by it if he wants--and I think it might go a long way to showing him how much you value his personal heritage, which, at least according to those blog posts RobynT linked to, could be a very good thing.
Anyway, I know there are some downsides to this route as well, but I wanted to bring it up at least as a possible solution.
hyz: Thanks for the comment about facebook. I'm not on there, but I might scout around a bit. I'm running into roadblocks because I can find information about Korean family names, but not so much about Korean first names. I will consider Jae.
I suppose the name Han is a possiblity, but I don't see anything but a "scruffy" Harrison Ford, when I hear that name, sadly.
Leafy--
I prefer Clementine because the vowel sounds are nicer (I think) with Leaf. Well, assuming that you pronouncing it the same way I do (with a long I, tine at the end, not teen). Because Leaf has the "ee" sound in the middle, I think ElodEE LEEf or DelphEEne LEEf, end up sounding rhyme-y, but I don't have that problem with Clementine. I really like Mirnada's suggestion of Delilah too, I agree that the internal L sounds nice with Leaf.
Whoops, just realized I hadn't read the 3rd page of comments, and I think some other people said the same thing as I just did...sorry for the duplication! :)
hyz: You must have posted at the same time I did. I will definitely think about keeping the Korean name first, though we need to see what it will be first, and I also want to find out if it was given by his birth family or by someone else just as a handle for use in the meantime. If it is the later case, I may consider giving him a Korean name with sigficant meaning and/or historical background in the country. I'm not inclined to do that though, unless (as I mentioned above) his Korean name truly does not translate well to this culture.
The wait is driving me CRAZY, since we are getting so close to being matched with our son...thinking about names keeps me at least somewhat sane. :-)
Lorien--understood--there are some Korean names that are real doozies when transliterated into English (one of our wedding guests, a very distinguished older gentleman with the unfortunate name of Dr. In-bum "Kim" comes immediately to mind)--and it may not be doing your future child any favors to make a name like that prominent here. If you find yourself in the position of looking for a new Korean name (for whatever reason), the best advice I can give you is to find an older Korean immigrant (Korean churches can be a good place for this, if you don't know any such people personally), and ask them if they know the Korean naming traditions. The person will need to have a good working knowledge of Chinese characters, and there are Korean reference books on the subject that they may have or be able to find for you. If you are shy about doing this, I just want to say that I've found (and heard from others, too), that Korean people tend to be pretty enthusiastic when non-Koreans show an interest in their language and culture, and you should be able to find someone who would be very happy to help. Perhaps someone through the adoption agency could even help?
Anyway, congratulations on your impending adoption!! So exciting!! I'm sure we'll all be happy to pass the time with you talking about the names as much as you want. :)
Lorien: How great that you've got a background in linguistics so that you can identify names that are pronounceable for both Korean and English speakers. I know a number of adoptive parents who wanted to do something similar but didn't have that linguistic know-how to find a name that crossed languages successfullly. (They usually settled by trying to find a name that had viable variants in both languages.) Maybe once you've confirmed your name for your son, you could find a way to offer your linguistic abilities to other adoptive parents looking for similar names.
And congratulations to you and your expanding family! You'll have to let us know when the match comes through.
Mirnada-I liked what you said and agree, but it never really bothered me that much.
Leafy-Although Miriam would disagree (I think-WHERE IS SHE??), I like the name Delilah for you. Theodora to me sounds a tad harsh, Delilah not so much. I am not religious as I've stated before so the biblical connection does not phase me. I think instead of the radio personality. The repeated sounds are sing-songy but work for me.
Lorien-I like Leo but my first thought was William. Would this work for you?
Oh, and I should stop posting so much, but I also wanted to point out that while Korean only has one letter for both R and L (ㄹ), Koreans are fully capable of pronouncing two distinct sounds more or less like we say them. In fact, the "name" of that letter is romanized as "riyul"--the R has a bit of a roll to it like in Spanish, but the L sounds basically like ours. In Korean, the L sound usually appears in the middle or end of a word (such as "mullayo"--"I don't know" or "hangul"--"Korean language"), and ㄹ is normally pronounced as R at the beginning of a word (so Leo might sound like "Rio", but William is pretty doable). It's true that the super-common Korean name Lee is actually written and pronounced as "EE" in Korean (the symbol is 이, not 리 using the r/l letter--리 is usually transliterated as Rhee, Ree, etc.)--I have no idea why all of the "EE" families got that random L tacked onto the front when they came here. For instance, my Korean professor was called Professor Lee in English, but we called her Ee-sunsaengnim (meaning "Professor (L)ee") in Korean. Anyway, don't know if anyone cares, but I just wanted to clarify. :)
Han sounds too Chinese to me. (Try googling Han Chinese.) (Of course, Kai is Hawaiian so unless you have ties to Hawaii, it seems a bit strange to me.)
How about Yul? Yul was the name of the (cute)Korean American lawyer who won Survivor a couple of seasons back. He's a good role model too (and there are so few Asian males in the media). The name Yul is also familar to non-Koreans through Yul Brynner.
Yul is a great idea! I had never heard of that guy, either--shows you how up I am on pop culture. :)
And in defense of Han, I do see your point about Han Chinese, but it's very legit Korean and is actually a pretty common name syllable--I happen to have two young cousins-in-law named Han-bi and Han-bit, for instance. Most Korean names derive from Chinese, anyway, though, so it isn't surprising that there would be overlap.
is yul a korean name (as in from korea)? i assumed it wasn't, but i have no idea really. and maybe it doesn't matter.
I hadn't heard it before, but I googled it, and it does appear to be Korean. (Speaking of Han) http://www.hancinema.net/ is essentially the Korean IMDB.com, and their actor database is a fun place to find huge lists of male and female Korean names. Oh, and their people search is the best!
http://www.hancinema.net/search_korean_people.php
You can put in sex and search any name you want (like, the syllable we had to use for our daughter was "min", so I was able to put that in and search for women/girls who have "min" in their names, and see dozens of combinations, get a feel for what was common/popular, etc. Of course, it's not an exhaustive list by any means, but it certainly is a great place to start!
How about Hans Korean Name Dietrich? It sounds German! It sounds Korean-kinda! Two for the price of one.;)
I just heard a story that fits exactly the ongoing discussion of ln's. I was excited to get back to my computer to share since I rarely hear anything worth sharing like this.
We're in South TX, fwiw. A colleague of mine (probably late 20s) got divorced a couple years ago and changed her name to her grandmother's maiden name. She didn't like her maiden name, liked the way her grandmother's sounded and liked the family connection.
She's had a boyfriend for years but doesn't know if she'll get married. If they do she will certainly keep her new ln because she doesn't like the sound of his. He would keep his ln because that's the way the world works to him. She doesn't know what might happen with kids because she doesn't like his ln but he's tied to it for traditional reasons and not likely to just let it fall by the wayside within his family. (I'm not sure if it would die out - didn't get that many details.)
I don't think I've ever met anyone else that changed their ln let alone in a way that we had just been talking about. It makes me happy to have my own example now.
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