The Baby Name Wizard

Thanks, Elisabeth. I kinda fell hard for Raphael last night. We debated the "f" vs. the "ph" spellings, but figured most people would say it right in any case. Thoughts? Rafael is #238-ish on the Social Security list, Raphael #630-ish.
That France list was interesting. If nothing else, it was a reminder about the umlout for the fr spelling of Raphael's "e," just as Felix gets the accent over the "e" in fr and sp. But I also liked how thye kept separate spellings from different languages as distinct entries. Looks like the French are borrowing from Italian and Spanish (and others) like many Americans. Plus it's a contrast with the Quebec list which consolidates names like Alexandre and Alexander, Matthew and Mathieu.

I pronounce Rafael and Raphael differently. Rafael is (to me) Rah-fie-el whereas Raphael is Ray-fee-el.

@Birgitte (I think it was Birgitte, sorry don't want to scroll back)-- about Anne with an E being "too common"--the funny part is that I chose that as my screen name because it was so much less common than my first name (Jessica)!

@AJ, I tend to like Rafael a little better, partly because Raphael is more overtly angelic, and a little over the top for me, and partly because if you're going to nickname it, I think Raf looks better than Raph, which looks like a misspelled Ralph. But I may be biased bc the best man at our wedding was named Raf... :)

Thanks for the additional links, everybody! I *thought* I'd updated the Italian list, but I could have easily missed an upload, I'll double-check.

For France, I believe that the Naissance list isn't an actual national ranking but just a reporting of that site's membership. Lots of websites all over the world have discovered that they can get a lot of press by reporting their own baby name stats, which adds extra landmines to the process of gathering global data. Private lists can be VERY different from national figures -- e.g. the January headlines proclaiming that Santiago is the #1 Latino name in the U.S., which isn't close to true.

I vote for Rafael too. Just looks hipper. Plus I agree with Anne with an E about the angel and the nn.

I like Rafael better than Raphael, too. FWIW, I pronounce them identically.

i think i actually prefer raphael (i like the solidarity with the angel, the artist, the ninja turtle, etc). however, i agree that rafael is probably the hipper spelling.

(oh, and i pronounce them identically as well)

AJ - Raphael vs Rafael (vs Rafaël?)

For "aesthetic" reasons I'd choose the f-spelling, because Felix also has an F.

For "practical" reasons, I'd choose the spelling most common in the country you live in or the language you speak most frequently. But even if you go against the trends, I think "Rafael with an f" is a perfectly clear statement (unlike, say, "Liesl without the e").

Just spotted an interesting name of a Dutch girl playing Wimbledon:

Quirine Lemoine

She's white so it is probably not a name from the overseas territories. I quite like the name.

AJ-I like Rafael vs Raphael for the same reasons as ev1 else. I like Giovanni too but that may be more Italian then French/Spanish.

Leafy-since you have decided on Theodora as the first name you are only comparing the mn's. Violet Edith on its own w/o regard to the other parts sounds the best. I actually like Theodora Violet Rose Leaf the best but I know you have personal reasons for needing Edith in there. It's just the long E repeats make it less palatable for me.

Keren-btw, I had friends growing up that were sp Karin, Karen, and Koren. Only the latter was pr Core-en. I doesn't seem odd to me to sp it your way. Laurence also doesn't seem feminine to me but I am very unfamiliar with other cultures naming traditions.

Keren,

Glad somebody knows what I mean! In the international community I am either a male or an Indian woman.

People seem to be more conservative with borrowing when their children will be running among actual French and Finnish children. In my children's school there are no Allesandros or Lorenzos that don't speak Italian with at least one parent.

I think most people look for something that belongs to at least *one* parent but could work in both countries and isn't too confusing to pronounce.

What are some names that work almost everywhere? Sophia/Sofia seems to be on many lists, as well as Anna, Leah, and many of the Bibical names. I hear a lot of Max and Luca coming from all directions as well.

And as for the discussion last post about England being ahead with the old lady names but picking up 1970's American names, I know a family from the UK with a 15 year old Sophie and a 3 year old Amber, and another (hip and modern couple) that just named their newborn twins Jessica and Holly.

So, does anyone know where the 'ph' sound originates (in English). It seems extraneous (a duplicate of the 'f' sound), and it does not follow many patterns-- we us Phoenix, but never Foenix, Felix but not Phelix, And Rafael, Sofia, etc. can use either.

Is there any time when 'ph' and 'f' are different sounds?

Laneyo, Julia and Alexander/ra work too I think. And as a Sarah I'll agree that in my experience non-obscure biblical names work in pretty much any western culture.

From Wikipedia:

‹ph› is a digraph in the English Language and many other languages that represents /f/. Ph in English generally occurs in words derived from Greek, due to Latin transcription of Greek Phi (Φ φ) as ‹ph›. In Ancient Greek, this letter originally represented /pʰ/ (an aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive). In some non-standard spellings of English, like leet, ph may be used as a replacement of all occurrences of f. Exceptionally, ‹ph› represents /v/ in the name Stephen.

Well, NEs, there are quite a few naming challenges on the table right now! For those not too fatigued, here's another...

I posted several months ago with some early name ideas my husband and I had for our 1st child. We now know that it's a boy, and as he's due in just 3 weeks we should really get down to naming him. Our naming styles are quite different and we've had a hard time coming up with a list we both like - see our current top 5 below. (1) Thoughts on choosing among them? (2) Middle name ideas? We've had so much trouble coming up with these, we haven't spent much time on middles.

One thought we have is to use York since we're both from NY and our families both still live there (though we don't)...I quite like Leon York, for example. Another idea of my husband's is to use Aron (my name spelled backwards) as a tribute to me since the baby will have his last name but I kept my maiden name (Troy Aron could work).

Current Top 5:
Leon
Troy
Declan
Ewan
Miles (but is it too popular and/or destined to be the next Caden?)

To give an idea of our respective styles...Some of my top names that he vetoed: Theo(my favorite), Anton, Silas, and Cyrus. Some of his favorites that I vetoed: Thor (his favorite), Ajax, Chance, and Gavin (which I like but is too popular for me).

Thanks for any advice or opinions!

I knew a woman once whose name was the equivalent of Ayala Tom. She always got mail to Tom Ayala, as if people assumed she misplaced her own first and last name!

Nora: I love York and Aron with the stories you gave! Feel like they are both great and even better with the stories. I don't think Miles is the next Caden. Declan might give you the most pronunciation issues. (I only learned how to pronounce it on this site; before that i thought it was deh-CLAN.) Troy might stand out the most for this generation, as it's not an -n name. And I do think that Miles might be more common than Troy.

Nora: I really like your mn picks. For your first names: I like Miles, Leon, Troy, Declan, Ewan, in that order.
I have a friend considering Ewan as well for a boy, and while I like the name in theory, as a practical name, I dislike the pronunciation.
I really like Miles York (though Aron works too) and agree that Miles isn't going to skyrocket more than it has.

thor, wow! that would be quite the name! a lot to live up to, i would imagine...

miles york is also my favorite, as it's just so smooth and (to me) sounds sophisticated without being stuffy or inaccessible.

if you used leon, would he be strictly leon or would you ever use the nn leo?

also, is declan pronounced deck-lan?

i think my ranking would be almost the same as knp, except i might switch troy and declan: miles, leon, declan, troy, ewan. i like troy, but i can't get the image of high school musical out of my head.

i've been told that declan is pronounced DECK-lin

got it. that's how i was saying it in my head, i just wasn't sure that it was correct. thanks!

Nora,

Leon- I like this best, though it will surely go up. It's in the top 10 all over Europe, even top 5 in a couple of countries.

Troy- Don't really like it. Sounds pretty 80's to me, and a little "thuggy".

Declan- Are you Irish? Because I wouldn't use it if not. Nobody knows how to pronounce it besides them.

Ewan- Third choice.

Miles- Second choice.

York is a nice middle name! I'm one of those name geeks who think a middle name should have some sort of meaning and there should only be one of them.

Thanks for the feedback so far - nice to hear our mn ideas aren't too "out there."

I hope you're right (RobynT and knp) that Miles isn't going to shoot up to the top of the charts...I think it's my husband's secret favorite from our list.

Agree that Ewan has some probably pronunciation issues, though I wish it didn't!

Emilyrae, I actually LOVE the nn Leo if we go with Leon, and I (at least) would definitely use it. And yes, I believe Declan is pronounced Deck-lan. As for HS Musical, I've heard of the Troy connection but have never seen it, so don't have those associations myself...I wonder if many people would (and if that's then a strike against the name)?

Posted before I saw the later posts - Laneyo, I totally agree with you on this: "I'm one of those name geeks who think a middle name should have some sort of meaning and there should only be one of them." Since we wouldn't use the mn much at all, I'd like it to have some meaning for us/him. And we don't want to honor someone in one of our families and not the other, since we don't know if there will be future children...

Nora,

Aron: I just checked the NameVoyager; Aaron is 20 times more common than Aron, meaning you'll probably see it misspelled occasionally. Does that matter to you?

Another middle name idea: your maiden name.

First names, my order of preference:
Declan - my favourite of the 5. I generally prefer names with strong-sounding consonants (like c/k, t, d...) over soft sounds (like l, m, n).
Miles - and despite what I just said, I genuinely like this as well. It has a classy feel without being pretentious.
Leon - I slightly Leonardo nn Leo, but Leon is still all-right.
Ewan - too soft-sounding for me.
Troy - just not my style. Too little history (as a name).

ah, i love the nickname leo as well. miles and leon are definitely my favorites, though i don't particularly dislike the others.

i am not sure if high school musical is a connection many people would make...if so, i imagine it would only be children/parents of children, not the general population. i'm sure the average person doesn't realize that that young man dressed in the athletic suit jumping excitedly into the air on all the posters is named troy. :] even so, i don't think it is a terrible association.

i do somewhat agree with laneyo regarding it being a tough guy name (i wouldn't necessarily use the word "thuggy", though i giggled out loud when i read your comment--that's such a funny adjective!). it's certainly not on the level of spike or butch or something like that, but to me, it does have somewhat of a sense of over-muscled male ego. however, in this case, the high school musical association would actually combat this! as i recall, that troy was very clean-cut and not at all "thuggy". :]

Brigette - I didn't know about the Lucy/Maud thing. Thanks for sharing.

Jillc- Congrats on your Feb. baby!

Coll - I actually prefer the e on the end of Maud as well but if I wonder if it's cheating to 'sorta' name her after Lucy Maud Montgomery?

AJ - I like Rafael better as well. I also pronounce them identically but I'd worry that the 'ph' version would get shortened to Ralph by people in the US, which is not good. Meanwhile the nn Raf is cute.

Nora - I like all your names and both your middle names. Here are a few thoughts I had when reading them though: York can go with Leon, Declan and Miles whereas Aron flows nicely with Troy and Miles. However Ewan York or Ewan Aron but sound wrong to me. My favs are probably Leon York (I'D want to be friends with that kid, he sounds cool already) or Miles Aron (which has a laid back vibe to me).

Nora: I love Miles! Declan and Ewan aren't my favorites, Leon and Troy are middleish for me. I think Miles York or Miles Aron sound nice, my opinion might vary depending on how many syllables your son's last name will have, because Miles York might be a bit abrupt with a short last name.

Sibsets I've encountered in paperwork recently...tried to limit myself to sets of 3, or sets that I thought were cool or unusual if there were only 2 (didn't want to bore you all with multiple Matthew, Christopher sets!)

Brittney, Yolanda
Jasmine, Natasha
Aletheia, Grace
Emiliano "L@rry", Martin "T0ny" (I find the nn surprising!)
Zachary, Kara, Ryan
Victoria, Cadence
Maria, Liam
Isabelle, Julia, Olivia
Rocky, Richard
Teo, Jessica
Tupper, Alexis, Leandra
Nathan, Matt, Alexa
William, Christopher, Natalie
Hayden, Gavin
Gus, Xavier
Marianne, Dominique
Rene, Vito

Matchy sets:
Luke, Lance
Logan, Landen
Kacee, Keeli
Calysta, Cassandra

Names I've never seen before:
DEVIKA, TAKODA

Anne with an E: Love those sets! So interesting to see what people put together (and make up stories...)

Nora: I think I agree with Laneyo that Declan would make me expect someone Irish. I think maybe the same with Ewan and Scottish (right? I'm not good at Euro name origins). I also agree that Troy is very masculine. I didn't think so growing up, where I went to school with a Troy (whose brother is Lance), but I've come to see it that way. I assumed your husband proposed Troy (b/c of his other choice Ajax).

nora,
i meant to say earlier that your name is actually one of my favorite girls' names. :]

Yes, Keren from Bananarama, that's me...if only! Should say btw that Keren is completely a female name in Israel. And most Kerens there are 20-somethings, which is nice for me at 40 plus.

How could I have forgotten Sofia/Sophia as an international name! It is probably the number one.

In or internatonal school people weren't so conservative about borrowing, partly because the Dutch are so open to names from other cultures. I knew Dutch kids called Tim, Guillermo, Luchino, Isabelle, Valerie, Ingmar...I could go on and on

AJ--I prefer Raphael to Rafael. It never occurred to me that one would be "hipper" than the other--I just think of "ph" as the classic English spelling, and "f" as the Spanish/other spelling. I generally say both the same, but I might be more careful to enunciate Rafael as rah-fah-el, while Raphael sometimes turns into Raf-eye-el for me.

Nora--from your list, I like Miles best, then Declan. I want to like Ewan, but I agree the Ewww sound is offputting. Troy sounds kinda 80s to me, and I do get the thuggish connotation that some have mentioned. As for Leon--am I the only one who gets kind of a grumpy old man association with this one? It makes me think of Roseanne's boss on the TV show, or Seinfeld's Uncle Leo (yes, I know his name is Leo, not Leon, but he epitomizes a Leon for me). I really prefer Leo--is there any reason you're not going straight for that, since you like it as a nn? If Leo was on your list, it would be my first choice. So, I like Miles York, Declan York, or Leo Aron the best. I agree Miles is a bit on-trend, but there are worse things. I don't think it will become the boy version of Olivia/Isabella (i.e. universally popular), but depending on your location, your Miles may definitely not be the only one in his class--maybe kinda like Adelaide, Eleanor, or Fiona (I know of WAY more of these than I should based on the straight SSA stats).

Leon/Leo as an old man is funny to me because of it's extreme popularity in Europe. I think of Leon as a little blondish 1-5 year old. It's the #1 boy's name in Germany and in the top 10 in surrounding countries. Leos are EVERYWHERE, and I mean every fourth boy between 1-10.

hyz,
agreed about raphael, i think that's why i prefer it as well; to me it is the "classic" spelling, which i nearly always default to as far as names go.

also, i do see what you are saying about leon, but i think it might be ready for a comeback. if it was leonard we were talking about, i would strongly agree, but i think leon works. though i also prefer leo and think it could stand alone as a name.

Nora- I like Miles and Leo, but I'm not as sold on Leon or the others. I know you said you struggled getting here, but I do want to throw out three names that your lists (including the ones that were vetoed) made me think of.

Chase
Lincoln
Weston

They're all a little different, but might match. We named my ds (now 1.5 yrs old) Lincoln and are happy with it, but it's definitely not everyone's style. I can tell you that there aren't any other Lincoln's in his day care but that no one acts like it's a shocking or funny name.

A few responses:
We have SOME Irish blood on both sides of the family and my husband's last name can be of either Irish or English origins, so Declan should sound good with it...that said, we don't identify ourselves as Irish since we each have several other strands of various European heritage and our families have been several generations in the US.

hyz - My husband greatly prefers Leon to Leo, which is why we wouldn't go straight to that though we would use it as a nn.

The feedback has already been helpful, as I see Ewan falling off our list...it was hanging onto the bottom as it was, and various points here have confirmed some hesitations I had.

Emilyrae - thanks...it has worn well from childhood to adulthood. :)

Is it possible I missed someone posting the news of the twins for Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick, born June 22 to a surrogate mother?

Picture in today's Toronto Globe and Mail shows the whole family, including son James Wilkie:

Marion Loretta Elwell Broderick
Tabitha Hodge Broderick

It is a short notice. No reasons were given for the name choices. Babies look very cute!

Nora, my faves are Leon York, Miles (either middle), and Declan York (in that order).

I knocked out Ewan, although I do like it, because it doesn't work with the proposed middles (which I think are clever in a really nice way).

And Troy is just OK to me. I'm actually pretty tapped in to the HSM fan base since my daughter is 7, but that still isn't my initial impression of the name. Somehow I just don't like a lot of Tr- names.

KimB - Lincoln is our #1 boys name. I'm glad to know it goes over well with people.

Re: the Irish-ness of Declan

"Nobody knows how to pronounce it besides [the Irish]"

I disagree with this statement. (I know how to pronounce it, and I'm not Irish). Actually, I don't see what there is to be confused about - it is pronounced the way it is spelt?! What more can you ask for? (Aoibheann, on the other hand...).

Second, I don't see Declan as "hardcore" Irish, just "originally" Irish. (Aoibheann, on the other hand...). True, I'd be surprised if a Declan turned out to be Hispanic or Japanese, but knowing how popular Irish names are in the US, I don't assume anything more than "this person is probably at least 1% Irish".

Qwen-
My ds is Lincoln Douglas (mn after dh). We've gotten some funny comments like "you named him after a debate" but nothing about Lincoln. We thought a nn might be Link and were ok with it. Just in the last week, however, I have been wanting a more endearing (probably take this as "ie/y") nn for him and Linky just hasn't done much for me so far. (Btw, you will be amazed at how many ppl will ask how to spell it!)

"...but knowing how popular Irish names are in the US, I don't assume anything more than 'this person is probably at least 1% Irish'."

Anna, lol, I'd tend to agree with that. I'd say Declan is a little more "hardcore" than something like Caitlyn, Aidan, or Liam--maybe about the same as Fiona, Sean, Colleen, Eileen, Ainsley, Callum, etc., and less "hardcore" than Siobhan, Aiobheann, Sinead, Niamh, Aisling, etc.

Anna - thanks for your thoughts on the flow and balance of the names! I find that you can achieve flow/balance relatively easily with one middle name, but it is much more difficult with 2 middle names. I often read American people commenting that English people don't seem to name their children with the same sense of flow to their names - I think that this most often occurs when 2 middle names are used, as it is next to impossible to achieve the same kind of flow, so parents basically don't even try to achieve it - they just try to make sure that there are no clashes, no running-together of names, etc. I think this basically the approach that we are taking. To us, having an important family member's name in there (like Edith, in this case) is more important to us than the name sounding like a line of poetry. I know that is anathema to many nameniks! Hope you can forgive my heresy :)
P.S. I am not English by birth, but my parents are, and so are my husband's. In New Zealand, I find that most people have just one middle name, but quite a few have two.

dh and I watched Stardust earlier this week. I think the star's name is Aoibheann - said sort of like Even but not (and without dialect/accent, so who knows how hard they were trying with pronunctation). I was thinking of you guys when they'd say her name. Do any of you know if this really was her intended name?

KimB: The star's name was Yvaine

hyz: I'd move a couple of your names but agree completely on the 'hardcore' spectrum of irish names (Colleen and Eileen would be not at all hardcore in my experience, Liam and Declan in the middle)

KimB - According to Wikipedia the star's name is Yvaine both in the book and the movie.

Dang it, I hit tab enter rather than just enter. I believe her name is pronounced "Even" as in an "Even"ing star... Gaiman is big on word names in his books.

Hi Anne. I have to disagree about Declan from personal experience.

I have seen many teachers stumble with this name and some never get it correct(especially Americans). I'm saying this as someone who has worked with kids in 3 different countries for the past 15 years and now have children under 5 myself in all kinds of groups and classes. I can think of 3 different Declans I've met over the years and have one a bit removed in the family. It never made any sense to me since the child isn't the least bit Irish, but that's my own issue.

Name geeks are special. The average American will say "Dee-Clan" or "Dah-Clan" until the name gets more common. The teacher who never got it right insisted on calling the kid Dee-Clan for an entire year.

http://forvo.com/word/declan/