The Baby Name Wizard

And my link is just to show what I consider a "proper" pronunciation of Declan, and there is no way anyone with an American accent can copy that exactly. ;) It is a very nice name though!

Nora - I like Miles and Leon the most, then Declan. Not keen on either Troy or Ewan, mostly for the reasons given. I think Miles is the most popular but not overly so. Both Miles and Leon could have the cute nn Milo and Leo, which I like. I like all the variations of Leo: Leonardo, Leonidas, Leopold.

Re Declan, here in Australia there are no pronunciation issues and I know several Declans. It's seen as a pretty mainstream name. Although Irish names are more popular here, I get the impression that the US is catching up and it's really not a difficult one to pronounce, and even 'mis-pronunciations' would be very close. Declan is pretty much like Liam here (althouh Liam is still more popular) and I know several Liam's and Declan's with no Irish heritage.

KimB - the character in Stardust is Yvaine. It does sound similar, doesn't it?

Nora - how exciting that you only have 3 weeks to go! My brother and his wife just had their baby boy, 6 weeks early! It has made me realise that you never know how close baby may really be - so, good thinking getting the name sorted now! :)
Of all the names on your list, I like Leon the most by far, and like the nickname Leo too.
I think your middle name ideas are great. I like them both, but York seems to work best with Leon.
Second choice for me would be Miles. York and Aron both work well with Miles, in my opinion. It would greatly depend on the surname, though.

I'm surprised that there were so many people unfamiliar with the name Declan and how to pronounce it - I have met several people with this name! (And no, I'm not Irish and have never lived in Ireland! I didn't even consciously realise it was an Irish name until now, LOL!)

I have some American friends living in England who love the name Ewan but apparently all of their American friends found it a strange, unfamiliar and unappealing name. They went with Owen in the end.

AJ - I insitnictively prefer Raphael but after reading other people's thoughts, I agree that Rafael possibly works better with Felix and Xavier and has a slightly more modern edge to it - and I especially like the nickname Raf :)

Laneyo - "there is no way anyone with an American accent can copy that exactly" - Americans also pronounce English, French and Italian names differently, but it doesn't stop them being used by people with American accents! I can't see why Declan should be any different. Being able to copy it exactly seems besides the point.

Chimu - "I know several Liam's and Declan's with no Irish heritage." Same with me. Sinead and Siobhan are also really mainstream here, and people with no Irish heritage use them. Neve too - although it is not usually spelled the Irish way, Niamh.

Laneyo,

"I have to disagree about Declan from personal experience"

I'll take your word for it, but it still surprises me. Dare I say shortcomings of the educational system..?

I think so. Dee-clan probably thinks so too.

I put a ";)" by my comments about Americans copying Declan because I was joking--kinda. I think it sounds better with a Irish/English accent, but if said correctly sounds nice in American too.

Nora-Here are some combos for you. I know you are mostly considering York or Aron for mn but I found it fun to play with ALL your ideas. I disagree that Declan or Ewan are "strictly" Irish names.(I knew how they were pronounced) I think they've gone a bit mainstream. I get greek ideas from Troy not "thuggy". I knew one once and he was kind of beachy/volleyball/surfer dude so I get that too.

Leon York
Declan Troy
Declan Miles
Ewan Miles
Miles Aron
Aaron Miles
Miles Anton
Leon Silas/Cyrus
Leon Thor
Alex York
Gavin Miles
Gavin Chase

If you need more ideas for mn's you might want to Nymbler your current favs and see what pops up.
Just DON'T do Miles Cyrus for hopefully obvious reasons LOL!

FWIW, "Declan" is an ANGLICIZED spelling of the original Irish form of the name "Deaglan (2nd a with a fada)" which is pronounced by Irish-speakers as "DAY-glawn"

So it's really not that much of a jump vis-a-vis "Aidan" - the original spelling is "Aodhan (2nd a with a fada)" and would be pronounced closer to "EE-dawn" than "AY-dann".

Also, FWIW, I quite embrace the "hardcore" spectrum of Irish names, so I'm the wrong one to ask. In Belfast, for example, if you're going to use an Irish name you'd better be committed to Irish naming - Caitlyn, et. al is seen as merely "Irish Lite".

Leafy,

The importance of flow vs significance is always a personal decision. I'd choose significance over flow any day, unless it was really, really awful and ridiculous. A little bit of staccato, well that's hardy going to kill anybody. True, *I* notice these things when I dissect other people's names - but that's my hobby ;-)

The discussion about how many middle names always reminds me of a certain Danish princess. Her parents seem to have wanted to honour every single female relative back to around Eric the Red:

Elisabeth Caroline-Mathilde Alexandrine Helena Olga Thyra Feodora Estrid Margarethe Désirée

And her brother:

Ingolf Christian Frederik Knud Harald Gorm Gustav Viggo Valdemar Aage

Oh, and another brother:

Christian Frederik Franz Knud Harald Carl Oluf Gustav Georg Erik

i think irish names have to reach a certain saturation before i stop assuming the bearer is irish. so, i've heard of lots of non-irish seans, aidans, colleens, but haven't even met any real live declans yet. so that one is still irish to me. i'm not saying the bearer should speak with a brogue or anything; just that my expectation would be that the person was irish. so one of those things people might ask about i guess.

AJ, I love Rafael for you! I have a co-worker with this name who often uses the nickname "Rafa."

Nora, I like Miles and York separately, but together, it makes me think of Miles as a word, as in "How many Miles to York?" On the other hand, how many times do you really use your middle name? Also, I want to pronounce Aron as "Uh-ROWN." Maybe that's just me.

Declan will require the spelling and pronouncing of the name to all new people. But then I have to do that with Tirzah and it's not horrible. (It's not great though.) Also, I met a Mom at the playground whose son was named Declan. She was pregnant with #2, another boy, and she was having a really hard time choosing a name. She felt like she had to pick an Irish name. In addition, she felt like it had to be a somewhat unusual Irish name to go with her older son's name. That narrows the field substantially.

Leafy, i agree that Sinead and Siobahn are fairly well known in Aus. I also think Eamonn is not really unusual but certainly less common. Niamh's abound in the birth announcements, and I see it pronounced that way more often. No, I don't live in an area with lots of Irish or Irish heritage. Mind you, I still have a hard time getting my head around Americans having trouble with Lachlan and Fiona!!! I have no less than 4 friends with Lachlans (mixed with lots of Joshuas and Bens) and know several Fionas, including my aunt in her late 40's.

Tirzah-I could never use the name Raphael/Rafael for that reason. I loathe the nn Raf/Raffi/etc. (with the a sounding like cat) because it reminds me of the children's singer Raffi. His music is quite enchanting to young children but he gives off an effeminate vibe which throws me. I would much prefer Rafe (to sound like the a in cake).

For the women who needs a name for #2 to go with Declan, I could see this name in addition to Irish, going with maybe a Western name. It gives off vibes like Colton, Colby, Wesley, Dakota, as well as Liam, Callum, Aidan, Beckett (don't know what this is but thought it went ok too), or Ian. The Scottish and Irish are similar to me as are Celtic/Gaelic names. So any of them would work if it were me.

Here is a funny link my husband sent me knowing what an NE I am. I think he thought he was making fun of me!
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42822

the onion is great!

I've heard of several Declans, but have never met one IRL. One memorable one was a 3yo boy on SuperNanny who was always sneaking outside to pee in the bushes. Siblings were Chandler and Caden, which made me think of Declan as a name one chooses because it has the "right" sound, not for any particular country of origin.

I, like others, prefer Miles or Leon. Leon is actually growing on me after reading these comments!

Hi Zoerhenne,

My co-worker is Hispanic, so he actually pronounces Rafa as RAH-fa.

I wonder, are people pronouncing the first "a" in Raphael like the word "raw," "rat" or "ray"? I pronounce it like "raw."

Anna, I love that they chose the same number of names for each sibling (10!), but had to hyphenate the girl's first middle name to do so.

Declan seems reasonably mainstream to me - less common than Aidan but not particularly more Irish. And how many Aidan's do you suppose have to answer to Ay-ee-dan even now?

I like Aron as a middle name, but I also want to pronounce it with the accent on the second syllable. I actually like the name better that way myself, so I don't know that it's a problem. After all, how often do people have a chance to mispronounce your middle name?

I like the nickname Rafe (I prefer with the e, rhymes with safe) for either spelling of Raph/fael. I also like Rafa, but wonder if it would sound feminine to some. Perhaps it would work better as a family nickname? It does remind me of tennis player Rafael Nadal, who is often called Rafa, but he is very well liked so that's not a bad thing at all.

I have to confess to being amazed, although I know I shouldn't be, that people have trouble pronouncing Declan. It seems so intuitive. I know a 6-yr-old Declan as well as adults with the name (my neighborhood has a strong Irish contingent), but I think I would have surmised the correct pronunciation anyway.

I also don't see it as a really hardcore Irish name. More hardcore than Aidan, sure, but less so than others you could choose. And I would never assume that someone with the name Declan was necessarily Irish at all.

Tirzah, I think "rah" more accurately describes how I would pronounce the first syllable of Raf(ph)ael. Sort of like "raw," but not quite the same.

Oh, and I'm surprised I came around to liking Leon so much. Initially I didn't care for it, but as so often happens, I warmed to it after reading others' comments.

Hi everyone. I've really enjoyed reading all of the discussions on this board for the past month or so but I haven't posted anything yet. It's been really interesting though because so many of the recent topics have been very relevant to our situation.

Anyway, the reason I'm posting is because I'm pregnant with our third child and due in October. We have two girls, Caroline Beatrice, nn Lina (pron. Line-ah)and Charlotte Therese (pron. like Theresa), nn Lottie. Both are named after family members. Now we're having a baby boy and are at a loss for what to call him. My husband really wants a III (he's a Jr.) but I'm very opposed to this for personal reasons so he's agreed to use Robert as a middle name.

We have very different styles and are having a lot of trouble agreeing on anything. Our last name is actually really long (4 syl.) and Italian-sounding (although there's no Italian in me and only 25% at the most in him). I thought that we'd agreed on a name, Henry, but now Robert says he doesn't like it anymore. It just doesn't sound right to him (it's still my very favorite, though).

Names He Suggested:
Sean
Anthony
Brian
Russell (don't like Russell Robert)
Christopher (my name is Kristin, so No Way)
Joseph (waaaaay too many on both sides of the family)
Pretty much any name of any guy he went to school with in the late 80's/early 90's.

Names I Like:
Duncan (our ln ends with a "dona" though)
Leo (dh says no way)
Lucas
Frederic (My brother is Eric so I really like this one. Husband does not)
Edward/Edmund (Rob doesn't like Ed/Eddie and for some reason won't hear of Ted or Ned, which I like)
Henry (my favorite)
Arthur (my great-grandfather's name)
Theodore (nn Theo) Husband actually laughed out loud at this one but I don't know why.

Some names that we agree are OK but are not better than Henry:
Clayton (too many C-names in the family?)
Harrison (too modern with Caroline & Charlotte? Too associated with Harrison Ford?)
Wyatt (Wyatt Robert just doesn't sound right to me)

All names must go with Robert for the middle name. I really want a name that we both love so if he can't get into Henry, I'm willing to find something else. Any suggestions? You guys seem to have lots of really awesome ideas.

PS: sorry for the long post. I know that's really annoying. :(

i don't have strong feelings either way about using declan when you aren't irish, but i think it was a valid point that it might narrow your naming choices for future children. maybe declan isn't "hardcore" irish, but i think it might be irish enough (to me) that i would want to have some sort of continuity with other siblings. i wouldn't feel free to use isabella or david or samantha (not my top picks for names, just examples). and if you look up declan in namepedia, many of the sibling names listed are indeed irish (cormac, kieran, etc).

as for how i pronounce raphael, i'm...not sure. i was about to say that i used a short a, as in "cat." but now i keep repeating them in my brain and both the short a and the "ah" sound sound normal to me. i think i tend more toward the short a though. definitely not a long a sound (as in ray); that sounds very strange to me.

KristinFromSC: I am still thinking over your naming problem (others may be able to help more anyway), but just so you know, we kinda like long posts around here-- you did a great job of explaining your parameters! Congrats on your third!

Maybe something that is close to henry since you love it and it 'just doesn't sound right' to him? You already said Harrison, maybe Harris, Hendrik (too german?), Hugh,

Oh, and I'm a Kristin too and share your dislike for a 'Chris-' name for son-- my dh suggest Christian just two nights ago and couldn't see why that wouldn't work in a family with a Kristin!

KristinfromSC: When you said Leo, I thought of Leon, and then Liam/William as I know someone with a Liam that gets misheard as Leon. I think the difference in your and your husband's taste is pretty typical. My husband is also more comfortable with names from our generation. Maybe Darren/Darien? Calvin?

Anna - I guess that's a royal family kinda thing, LOL! The English royal family do it too - although with 3 middle names, not 10! 10 is quite a feat, isn't it!

Kristin - funnily, I enjoy reading the posts here so much that I don't mind at all if they are long or short! But I tend to be a long poster - I'm not very good at saying things succinctly!
I have to say that, personal name preferences aside, your husband's list of possible boys names is conspicuously lacking a name that seems to fit naturally with Caroline and Charlotte. Your list, on the other hand, has a few that seem totally made to be part of a sibset with Caroline and Charlotte - particularly Henry, Frederic, Edward and Arthur. This makes me wonder, did you have more of a hand in choosing the girls' names? Because you seem to "get" their style more.
If your husband doesn't like any of the names you've picked out then perhaps you could try using Nymbler - type in the names you like (and your daughters' names) and ask it for compatible suggestions for a baby boy. Get your husband to sit there and see if any that pop up, appeal to him. This is actually how my husband and I FINALLY found a name to agree on!
Good luck! :)

Kristin - trying to think of other suggestions for you, maybe:

Benjamin/Ben
Michael
Thomas/Tom
Timothy/Tim
Joshua/Josh
Alexander/Alex
Nicholas/Nick
Jonathan
Jack
Andrew
Daniel
Matthew
Oliver
Patrick
Dominic (nn Dom or Nic/Nico)
Sebastian

How about Antony (if you don't like Anthony), I much prefer Antony and it has a different feel. With Lucas, maybe using Luke as the nickname could convince you husband as I think this one could work for you.

I also like the suggestion of William or Liam.

All of these names would go with your daughter's names but would be more familiar to your husband so he might go for them. I do like some of your picks but thought I'd throw some more out there do give you something to think about (if you haven't already considered them). At least with a long surname you can go with a shorter first name if you wish.

Oh, don't you just love the Finnish records? You can do searches for first names and last names on the population register centre website, which gives you the number of people given a particular name in a given year. The data is constantly updated, so we know that so far this year there have been 312 Helmis, 393 Onnis, 311 Ilmaris and 439 Olavis. It's oddly addictive. :-)

http://verkkopalvelut.vrk.fi/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=3

Pronunciation of Rafael and Raphael: When I see Rafael I instinctively pronounce it with Spanish/French vowels. So that would be [rah] rather than [ray]. I also pronounce the R in a more Spanish/French than English way. But it also depends on context. With Raphael Devillier I'm guessing it's French, with Raphael Hathaway, I think English. Sometimes it's almost embarrassing because I'll accidentally pronounce Vermont without the t and Baton Rouge like it is French.

The Irish-ness of Declan, again: It's actually really interesting how differently we perceive the name and it's Irish-ness. My perspective is from the outside, since I'm neither Irish nor American. My perception is based on the look and the sound of the name. Something like Umpfh'quah would be just plain odd. Declan on the other hand seems like it has every potential to blend right in with the other names in the mainstream name pool.

Hardcore vs Irish Lite names: The deciding factor for me is more or less the spelling - Anglicised vs Irish. Instinctively, I want to pronounce Niamh as "neeam" and Aoibheann as "aei.. " [pause, puzzled look on my face] "..b-han??", and while I know the correct pronunciation for these two names I am clueless with probably 90% of the Irish-spelt Irish names.

I think these "hardcore" Irish names are in a different category than other foreign names. While an American may not be able to get Jürgen completely right, it's still fairly obvious how each sound relates to the letters. With Niamh [Neve] it's like "where did the 'v' come from, and where did the 'm' go"?!

Kristin, I like William Robert, as well. And--to be terribly on point--you could nickname him Liam, to match Lina and Lotte.

Others that Chimu suggested that I like: Sebastian, Oliver, Patrick. Jack sounds well paired with Robert, as well as in a set with Charlotte and Caroline, and dads seem to like the name a lot. But--there are sooooo many Jacks around me (NYC) that it's lost its charm for me.

I'll throw out a few more suggestions:

Archer (as a take on the vetoed Arthur)
Bennett
Colin
James (classic)
Anthony (might be a little too "Italian" w the last name)
Eamon
Francis
Alistair
Victor
Walter
Davis

Kind of a random list, but maybe something will ring for you.

Kristin-
Since both of your girls have L nns do you care to go with an L nn for your boy or to stay away - or doesn't it matter?
Congratulations on #3

On "hardcore" Irish names:

These things certainly change with the generations. I look at my own Irish-American (on both sides) family. My sisters and I (all born in the '80s) have stereotypical "Irish-American" girls' names. The most unusual among them is Maura (spelled that way rather than Moira to get the pronunciation my parents wanted). You can probably guess what mine it. Claiming their Irish heritage was very important to my parents, but they never thought to use names like Aoibheann or Niamh, because they just weren't on the radar. Siobhan was about as "hardcore" as they considered (and ruled out because of pronunciation concerns).

When I was in Catholic school in Philadelphia (an area with strong Irish-immigrant roots) names like mine and my sisters were exceedingly common, along with names like Eileen, Kathleen, and your typical Mary-Kate, Mary-Ellen, Mary-Sue, etc. In public school, however, among the general population, my sisters and I were the only ones with names like ours.

My parents are named John and Jennifer. Claiming some kind of Irishness was completely unimportant for their parents, who were the children of Irish immigrants.

And my grandparents--as I mentioned, the children of Irish immigrants--had names that don't read as "Irish" at all: George, Johanna, William. Their siblings were Thomas and Rita and Mary and Theresa.

And then the immigrating great-grandparents themselves were named: John, Geraldine, Thomas, and Brigid. Looking back into our geneology in 18th- and 19th-century Ireland, there were many other Johns and a Maurice, but no Siobhans or Seamuses.

Now for my future children, I have some, but not much interest in Irish names. The anglicized ones have gone completely mainstream and no longer signify a connection to Irish-American culture. The Irishly spelled ones suggest *too* much connection-- My children will be 4th generation Americans, after all, and half-Jewish to boot.

Though I do confess a liking for Medbh. Medbh McGuckian is a favorite poet of mine.

Coll: Love your story! It is very interesting. I think it throws me off that your mom's name is Jennifer though--she must be a pretty early Jennifer right? Also, Moira is supposed to be pronounced Maura? My niece is named Moira, pron Moy-ra. Not sure if she has any Irish.

Just got a chance to pop on for today and caught up with all the comments - Thanks to all for weighing in on our choices!

zoerhenne - thanks for the nice combo ideas. And actually we DID hit on Miles Cyrus the other night at dinner when thinking through some combos, and had a good laugh over it. :)

I'll be talking this over with my husband this weekend, now with lots of great feedback. Will let you all know what we decide!

Kristin, I really like William and James for you. I think they go well with your daughters' beautiful names.

Tirzah-Rafael/Raphael is sort of somewhere between "rah" and "rat" A sounds. Still nms. Hope I didn't offend anyone by using the word "loathe" but that was just for me using the name.

Kristin-The first name that came to mind was Chandler. Don't know if you are trying to do another C name though. Also, not sure if the "Friends" connection would be too strong for you or not. I liked many of Chimu's ideas.
Benjamin, Timothy, Nicholas, Daniel, and Dominic sound good to me. For some farther out there ideas (but also maybe dh would like) How about:
Frederick
Simon
Andrew
Vaughn
Graham
Lawrence
Travis
Phillip
Adam
Nathaniel
Elliott
Jeremy
Austin
Spencer
Ethan
Congrats and good luck!

Can I just say that I am loving the Irish name dicussion. but since everyone pretty much made all of my points.(esp. Anna) I will move on from Declan(how friggen hard is to say that gimme a break)LOL
Any way I loved Coll's story and I wanted to share one of my own. Born and grew in Ireland.When I was 8 I remember being in school and a new kid was brought in, his name was Griffen, we all looked at him like he had three heads,I remember hearing kids saying "his name is what?"
Within weeks we were all calling him Bobby. Why did we call him Bobby? Cause kids are cruel I guess.
I moved to Canada when I was in my mid teens and I met and minded a 4 year old Griffen and it was explained to me by the mother that they named him that because they were Irish too. I feel bad now, but when we were alone I called that kid Bobby for old times sake.

i don't really think it's so entirely surprising that declan could be mispronounced. it certainly isn't the most difficult name i've ever come across (my own first instinct on the pronunciation was correct), but not everyone sees words the same way (note previous discussions regarding the name helena). if someone were unfamiliar with the name declan (as i'm sure many people are), i don't think it would be so bizarre for them to instinctively say dee-clan.

Wow, I had no idea about Declan, as I've only heard it "deck-lin," which sounds plenty like the link to the speaker's pronunciation in the link on an earlier page.
I used that site for Rafael, too. Thanks for all the thoughts. It seems silly to think the "f" breaks the angelic connection, because I think only some anglophones would think that. Rafael *is* the angel as much as Raphael is, just as Javier is as much a reference to the co-founder of the Jesuits as Xavier is. Besides, I like the connection.
I am moved by the Raf/Raph issue with "ralph." I've never heard "Rafa" used, but I like it. I have become more comfortable with Rafe (rhymes with safe) recently (and embarassing to admit) because of the Rafe on "Days of Our Lives," who is almost never called Rafael. I probabl would not use a nn much, though, just as I don't with my or my husband's names, even though many people assume we use the common nicks.
It's definitely Latinate vowels all the way, so "RAH."
Anna, ITA on anglophones' struggles with Gaelic spellings. Welsh offers the same challenges as Irish in names.

AJ- I know a (French I believe) man named Rafael, nickname Rafa.

There's also Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez.

I hit enter quickly. I meant to add both of these associations lead me to think of "Rafa" as a strong, masculine nickname.

Quick question: I know some people who are going to have a baby in a few months. The mom's name is K3lly, the dad goes by N@ture. They like the name P@th for its meaning, but want something that sounds "prettier". Journey was all that came to mind. Any other suggestions?

RobynT, my mom was born in 1951, so she is an early Jennifer. I've heard Moira pronounced both ways (Moy-ra and More-a), but my parents wanted More-a and chose the spelling Maura to make that clear.

Laurence is a very common name for girls in the Francophone world. Maybe it only seems unusual to English speakers? One of the previous posters had it right with the male version being Laurent. I was actually very surprised to see that it made Laura's list - I didn't think it was on the same level of oddity as all of the other names on the list.

Anne, I like Journey. Lane would be a good synonym for Path that is less far out as a name (although far out may be what they are going for). Trail is a possibility too, although it makes me think of 'trailing behind', which is not as pleasant of a connotation. What about Wander, which could have the nn Andy if the kid wanted something less unusual? Trip? Story?

What an interesting question...you'll have to let us know what they decide.

Anne with an E, I think you've made a great suggestion. Think of the other somewhat synonymous options: hike, walkabout, trail, highway. No. "Lane" is offered as a synonym at thesaurus.com, and that is used as a name. Journey has both literal and metaphorical connotations.

Anne with an E: Or maybe something with "way" in it, like Wayland/Waylon? Rhodes? I'm thinking of Palin's Trek also.

AJ, I'm not sure it matters, but are we talking boy or girl names here? I assumed Path would be male, but Lane and Journey sound feminine to me. Go figure. I'll think on it some. Trek? March? Odyssey/Odysseus/Ulysses? Peregrine? Travel(er)? Sojourn(er)? Rover? Macadam (lol)?

Anne,

Walker!?

Lol, thanks for all the suggestions! I think they're thinking more metaphorically, as in they want the baby to have a good "path" in life, not so much an actual path! :) Several of us in the office have been trying to brainstorm for them, and Journey was the best we could come up with. I was thinking maybe Truth or Sojourner or Verity, or something that I could see as more an actual name than a noun.

And they don't know if they're having a boy or a girl, which makes the suggestion game harder...