The Baby Name Wizard

@ Leafy

I LOVE all the Theas. I wanted Althea or Dorothea for my daughter, but decided that for me it didn't flow with the strong EE sound in our last name. (Phonetically, it would be Al-THEE-uh REE-dur.)

As others have noted, both Thea and Edith will have the same EE echo with your last name, but if you like it, then there's no problem!

But I did want to say that Thea Leaf looks and sounds a lot like "tea leaf." I don't think anyone else has pointed that out yet.

Thanks, I hope I help in the discussions.

A couple more thoughts about men without interest in names:

If he's interested in names, he's interested. If he's not, he's not. Trying to get him to like names if he's not interested would be like him trying to get you interested in the football stats behind his fantasy league, if you're not interested in it. That disinterest you might feel to the point of physical pain is what he's experiencing.

That might change with time, like Anne with an E's husband. But that's a change that will come from within, not through pushing. So if you've got time, don't give up hope.

But don't try to make him like names, because that will cause resentment. Especially don't just start calling names out of a book, asking him for preferences. The answer will be, "I don't like this, I can't think straight, just say no to everything." No one will be happy with this--not you, not him.

Now, perhaps he is adamant that the child be named something from his prepared short list. That actually means he's interested in names--specifically those names. Once again, just suggesting other names won't work, though--that answer is a simple NO to everything, again. He might not even hear the name before he says no. Instead, try to figure out why his short list is what it is. Understand the rules behind the list. If you can find a name that works within those rules that you like, you then can suggest the name, citing your reasons and how it fits with his rules. If it does fit, he could stop to consider it. If he dismisses it too, then either his rules are different from what he says, in which case keep asking him about his choices, or the big rule is that he chooses, period, in which case... I'm afraid I can't help.

All in all, the big thing to remember is try to understand what he wants the name to DO, not what the name IS.

Don't forget to understand what you want the name to do as well--perhaps the difficulty is that one of you wants a daughter that stands out prettily with her name, while the other would rather the name be boring in an attempt to keep unseemly interest off her. Perhaps one of you wants a son whose name is steady, fatherly, and loveable, while the other imagines a powerful, undeniable loner of a hunter.

And hey, so your kid gets a boring name. It's not the end of the world. I myself have a common first name, a common last name, and a common name in combination--so much so that I know that in any group I enter, there is always another person with my first and last name. I never Google my name--I'll never appear. It's simple, short, and it doesn't keep me from any opportunities. And when I want to be noticed and stand out, I use my middle name. It's common, too, but in a completely different culture, so you never see the names in combination.

Middle names are secret weapons in the name game. Tack one on--or more than one if necessary. Like a formal name with a nickname, the middle name sits there to be used or not as necessary. In short, it gives the name something more it can DO. He'll like that.

I just got an e-mail from a Giene-- does any one know how this sounds? It seems like a female based on writing style, but I don't know...

By the way, how do people feel about looking for names outside the family's culture? (My own name doesn't count because I'm from a multicultural family!)

I ask because I really like the boy's name Mahendra, but there's no Indian in our family at all (wrong continent). So I'm not sure.

Leafy, something that i have always liked and may one day end up using is Miranda. It's Shakespearean without being OMGShakespeare. And I've always thought that it seems fluid: it can be a child covered in mud or a woman leading a business meeting. Just my two cents on that one tho. Also, Laura is another name that is fluid enough to be both little girl and grown woman. I am a Laura, and while I tried to hate it when I was young, I barely managed it. And it's nice middle ground in popularity as well: I always knew of enough Lauras that I didn't feel too unique for my name, but there weren't so many that I had to be Laura B. at school. And so ends that shameless plug. :)

I've already started working on my Hubs as far as naming input. He's gone from 'i'll think about it later' to 'i heard a name today that i like!' it's funny to me tho that he and i can both come up with stacks of names for boys, but only a handful for girls. in truth, most of the girls have come from him saying that he hates certain names. he and i have also clashed more over boys names. but, even though it has been like pulling teeth to get his input before, i will make sure he has his say when we have children. beisdes, i don't want to be saddled with a child screaming ONLY at me that it's my fault her name is Elizabeth instead of Kayleigh or Addison. parents need to stand together and all that stuff. :D

Ok, so I have totally jinxed my choice of "Aoibheann" for our just-confirmed daughter by posting it!

As soon as I thought my husband had softened (especially after I told him repeatedly how much personal meaning the name has for me) I felt pretty confident that this was something he could live with. So I posted. WRONG!

Now it seems we've gone from "D" on the naming style quiz back to "B", where he can just veto at will.

Now, that being said, his top two suggestions are in my top 5, so not really a huge compromise - it's just that those names don't connect with me as much emotionally. I'm trying to see if we can work in one choice from each of us for first and middle, but it's tough as they are similar in terms of repeated sounds and origin.

So....the other compromise name for us is Fionavar.

It comes from the Irish for "white ghost", and features in my all-time favourite book (and my mother's). Amazingly, while hubby objects to Aoibheann because he can't get his head around the "Even" connection, he loves this one. It has an emotional connection for me, plus the possibility of Fionn (Finn) as a nn. Funnily, I don't really love Fiona as a name. So in theory it should be the perfect compromise, but I'm not sure. It may be too different (which on my scale takes a lot). And the 4 syllables make it difficult to find a mn that will work with our hyphenated surname.

Thoughts? Cheers or Boos from the gallery?

So many new voices here! Awesome.

New kids at camp this week: Kai, Audrey, Anea. It's a vowel-laden group.

Linnaeus, I think you could get away with Mahendra, but you might need to invent a very cool back story to go along with it. "This is my son Mahendra. I thought up his name after dreaming I was in Gujarat visiting the Indian lions" or some such thing. People will certainly ask!

PPPhD, I like it, but it does sound like an Irish teapot. Is the -var part pronounced with a "v"?

Liz&Louka-Kaz is a cool nn for Katherine. I like it.

Princess-Your name is interesting. While not my first choice for a child of my own, I would certainly look beyond the "books cover" if you will and read a little about what was inside.

Anna-I did not think about the mafia, I just got confused.

Leafy-Wow, Theodora Violet Edith Leaf is a mouthful. But you're right, you won't need to say or write that every day. But beware when she goes to school as there are about 25 papers you need to fill out on the first day for emergency contacts and permission for this and that (atleast here in the states). Theodora Leaf is not too bad. Thea is growing on me. Dora just reminds me of the cartoon character so I hope you don't go that route.

Nar - I don't see that an analysis of Thea Leaf as a name is really relevant because her name will be Theodora Leaf - but maybe I am missing something? My husband's nickname doesn't work at all with his surname, but the first name on his birth certificate works perfectly with his last name. I think that's the case with many people, and understandably enough. (By the way, both he and her would be T. Leaf - something he has been teased mildly about as it sounds like tea leaf, but which neither of us think is really that awful that we should avoid it.)

Thegrimtuesday - Thanks for suggesting Miranda, but I've already had that suggested numerous times here and responded. Laura is one that both hubby and I really like but somehow doesn't strike us as THE name for our daughter. Definitely a lovely one though.

Thanks, Elizabeth T!

Incidentally, "Mahendra" means "Maha Indra" where "Maha" means "great" and Indra is a Hindu god of war and weather. Sort of a Hindu Thor or Huitzilopochtli. It's also a name that just charges forth. And that's even with it ending with -a. Heck, the -a helps in this case.

@Elizabeth T.

Yes, it's pretty much pronounced as is (i.e. according to English rules): the actual Irish would be "Fionn abhair" and would be pron. more like "Finawir" or "Finoor" in different dialects.

Teapot? hmm. not sure I'm making the connection but I'll take the point anyway! Like I said, it's a bit of a challenging one, and that's why it surprizes me that hub prefers this option to Aoibheann.

Leafy: Congratulations on getting your names sorted out! And don't worry about the long name - my full name's eleven syllables and ungodly letters long, but so long as the cadence is right...

knp: Hm, Giene. Jean, Jeannie possibly? I've got a Generos@ nn Genie pronounced Jenny in my family, though, so who knows?

Linnaeus: Oh, I would snap up the Russian name Ilya in a heartbeat if not for dh's veto. Nice to see some guys out there know that not all -a names are meant for girls.

PPP: Fionavar sounds sweet, and I love the meaning.

Zoerhenne - gotta say I agree with you about Dora! Yes, I find that 4 names is pretty much always a mouthful, but both hubby and I have 2 middle names (it's traditional in both our families) and like the scope it gives us when choosing our children's names. If we were to shorten it, it would have to be to Theodora Violet Leaf, as hubby is set on having Violet, but not fussed about Edith.

PPPhd - I am so gutted for you that your husband has back-pedalled on your favourite name! I must admit that I am not as drawn to Fionavar, but I am not quite sure how to pronounce it correctly, which could make a difference.

PPPhd - my Irish friend has just said Fionavar for me and it sounds BEAUTIFUL with her accent. Are you Irish too?

Linnaeus: almost ALL the names I consider to be actual contenders are from other languages/cultures. Dutch, Irish/Gaelic, Russian/Slovakian, African, Persian. (I'm also a bit of a place name freak, which link to other cultures frequently, but in a different way)

On the topic of dad's being involved in naming... when my grandma was pregnant with my mom, she and my grandpa couldn't agree on a name. She wanted Colleen, and he wanted Kelly, which was definitely in the boys name camp at the time. My grandma insisted that Kelly was a boy's name, and she made sure she got Colleen on the birth certificate. After she was born, my grandpa refused to call her Colleen, only Kelly. Eventually, everyone but my grandma ended up calling her Kelly, and she legally changed her name when she turned 18. So in honor of my grandma, I plan to use Colleen as a middle name for my first daughter.

Linneaus-I could not step out culturally because as this board has discussed a time or two, it just doesn't feel like mine to take.

PPP-Aoibheann (which btw I spelled correctly w/o looking this time) is so lovely. I was actually getting used to it as being your dd's name too. What a shame-maybe he will turn back around. Maybe it's the pg hormones affecting him too LOL. Is Fionavar pron like Fee-ona-var? I expect not since few of the very Irish names are how they look.

Leafy, I realized that as soon as I posted the suggestion! *feels like a dunce* I'm sorry!

Thinking more about choice of last names though, i really think that is so totally a personal choice. I chose to drop my middle name, take my maiden as the new middle, and take Hub's last as mine. It was right for me and it felt completely logical. It also helped my family to realize that I'm not the 'baby' anymore. Also, the attitudes of my dad's family (maiden name was dad's) don't really mesh with my own ideas. If I'd had mom's maiden name, I likely wouldn't have changed it. They were a livelier bunch!

Hubs and I will give our kids our shared last name. Most likely, we will work in my maiden somewhere, even if it does sounds horribly preppy to us outside of a last name. Our last also allows for us to pull some amazing practical jokes on our families. Since the last name begins with the 'herri' sounds, we've talked about having some fake announcements printed up with some laughable repetitions of that sound in the name to see how many people we can fool. can't do that with my maiden!

Leafy:
Not as such - but I spent 7 years in Belfast and have a Phd in Irish history, so it's a strong connection for me.

I don't think it has much history as a name in Ireland, but I'm drawn to the meaning and the link to the book.

So, hearing it, any thoughts on a middle name if our surname is 2, 1-syllable names hyphenated?

BTW, I'm sorry if I still sound bitter over the decision! I am trying to be gracious about "losing" my favourite name, but this has been back-and-forth for awhile, and I just don't think I can push for it without alienating him from the process. At least most of his suggestions - like Fionavar and Saoirse - are off the beaten track and suitably Irish for my tastes! :)

future ex-princess:
If your husband knows anything about anime (or Silent Hill), suggest Akira to him and see what happens.

PPP:
I'm not sold on Fionavar, but really that's only because I was in Fionnphort not long ago, so just ignore me. Of course, Iona is still okay. I'm just inconsistent, I guess.

PPPhd, how about a 3-syllable middle name? Are you looking for something Irish for the middle name too?

Linnaeus: Well, that was progress. He told me he doesn't have any problem with -a and that Ilya sounds like a girls' name because "it just does". Sigh. The spousal veto at work. At least we've agreed on Vic...

Leafy--I like Theodora Violet Edith Leaf, and if she happened to use the nn Thea as her "everyday name" it sounds fine with Leaf. But then, I'm drawn to the sound reptition.

PPP--Oh, man, I'm sorry to hear your husband vetoed Aoibheann. I'd gotten so good at spelling it! Seriously, it's just such a striking name. It's shame he won't go for it.

Fionavar doesn't pack quite the punch, but I'm sure it will grow on me over time. (Btw, I think the teapot reference has to do with samovar.)

Linneaus--I waffle on the cultural/ethnic connection piece. My daughter does have a name that reflects my heritage, but my all-time fave boy name (never to be used by me) is Laszlo, which I think is Hungarian (or from another nearby country). Neither my husband nor I can claim any connection there. I think Mahendra is a cool name for a boy.

Leafy:

Possibly 3 syllables would work. We are trying to go Irish in the middle as well, but not at the expense of the name's "flow" if you know what I mean.

I was just thinking maybe 2 syllables, emphasis on the second? Our hyphenated surname is quite staccato (and of course now that I actually *think* about it, the second half is 2 syllables as well).

Think Grant-McKay
(that's only a few letters off in each).

We have 5 children - and my husband was always involved in the naming although I had more ideas, suggestions, and opinions.

It broke down like this -

1. Agreed on a girl's name right away- Miriam (my suggestion). Lots of negotiations on a boy's name. Finally agreed on Elijah (hubby's suggestion, a variation on my suggestion of Eli)

2. Hadn't finalized a boy's name (tentatively Joel) when we found it was a girl - I suggested a name (Corinne) and hubby would hear no others afterwards.

3. Agreed on a girl's name- Miriam. A boy - narrowed to two (my suggestion) - Hubby preferred my less preferred (Gabriel) until he learned the other was a family name on his side - Dominic.

4. Hubby suggested Lucy. Love at first hear for me. Never decided between Xavier (his suggestion) & Timothy for a boy. Lucy.

5. Agreed on Miriam for a girl. I suggested Theodore and hubby loved it. Theodore (Theo).

I have one girlfriend who told her husband basically since their kids both had his last name and it was his fault that they had a second (!) that she claimed naming rights for #2.

An old boss with 8 kids would give her husband a list of names she liked and he would choose from the list (no negotiation, cut & dried).

Linneaus: I don't personally have a problem with cross-culturing. It's such a personal decision, and a trip, a loved one, literary character etc. can be a great source of inspiration for a name and have a lot of personal meaning for the namers involved. -- Or you can simply just prefer the look of a French spelling over an English one like I do ;) --

future ex-princess:

Your husband isn't a hockey guy, is he? Some of the players are named Ilya. Oh, well... I've known too many Ilyas. But at least you've opened Ezra and Nikola (Tesla) and so on.

Amy3:

Laszlo is Hungarian and totally awesome. It's also well-known enough (mostly by being cool) that you could get away with it, I bet.

Zoerhenne- Thanks for the new suggestion of Rhett. I like it, but with the "R" last name, it's a bit much. Plus, DH doesn't like it. I don't think you were ever actually looking for a nn for Natalie (our other love when we named Lane - but being born a month early, she was then a little too far from Christmas for me!!!) - but an adult friend is named Natalie, she is "Nat" to us, but her college friends call her "Tilly" which I think is just so cute.

Linneaus- I am highly jealous of your girlfriend for your unrestrained interest in names, and I think it's great that you are willing to consider something like "Mahendra", especially with a commom name yourself. To be honest, it does sound feminine to me - maybe it's because of the -a on the end like someone else mentioned.

PPP- I don't blame you at all if you feel bitter about losing Aoibheann (you didn't sound it), it's hard to let go. I've had about 2 years to get used to losing the name I love and it's still sad. Regarding Fionavar - it doesn't seem to have quite the same easy-to-get-once-you've-got-it pronunciation as Aoibheann, because I'm still not quite sure I've got it. Not sure that matters to you or not, but just thought I'd throw it out there. The way I'm pronouncing it is appealing though (it's just I could be wrong!). I also agree with the suggestion of a three syllable middle name to go with your short last name.

Oh, Leafy - forgot to say I LOVE Theodora - esp. with Thea as a nn. Makes me wish I was having another girl. :-)

Oh, Leafy - forgot to say I LOVE Theodora - esp. with Thea as a nn. Makes me wish I was having another girl. :-)

One more thing...to me the cross cultural thing depends on last name. Ours is pretty cultural itself, so I think a very French, Irish, Indian, or whatever kind of name would sound pretty silly with our very Polish last name. You know, "What are you, exactly?" Although, if there was another culture that I felt drawn to, it would be a very cool way to honor both. For me, no matter how much I liked a name that was clearly belonged to one culture, I wouldn't use it. People with more neutral sounding last names have that option, though, IMO.

Linnaeus: Hm, I've got a few years before we start having kids. Time to start stealthily getting him into hockey.

Andrea R.

Thanks for the support! I definitely don't want to seem churlish about it, because it should be a happy decision and I'm so excited to be having a girl! But I have to admit, I'd already been using the name in our "conversations" together, before I even knew for certain she was a girl, so for me it was already "her name".

As to Fionavar, in my head it's pretty much "Fiona-varr". If that makes sense. My phonetics brain is failing me right now.

PPPhd - well, I hate to think we are going to come up with the perfect middle name only for your hubby to change his mind about Fionavar, but let's have some fun anyway...
I only know a few Irish names - all of them beautiful though, if you know how to pronoucne them!
If you're after 2 syllables, how about

Roisin
Ailish
Saoirse

And just to sneak in a 1-syllable Irish name that I absolutely adore:

Niamh

Do any of these appeal to you?

Future ex princess - you cracked me up so much with your comment "Hm, I've got a few years before we start having kids. Time to start stealthily getting him into hockey." Love it.

Andrea R - you have made my day. It is so great to have someone else LOVE the name you choose, isn't it? Theodora nn Thea is like a godsend to me right now, as after 6 months of my name suggestions being vetoed, I really did think I'd have to "settle" for a name that I didn't really love, but was just "ok".

The other crazy breakthrough in my household naming drama, is that hubby just announced out of the blue that the name Augustus has grown on him! So if we ever have a second boy, I will actually get to use my 2 favourite boys names (Benjamin for the 1st, Augustus for the 2nd). Not having to compromise on the boys' names somehow makes me feel less resentful of the mammoth search for a girl's name. Oh happy day!

PPPhd - as for a 3-syllable middle name, I'm afraid I can't seem to find one that would work with Fionavar. They all seem to end in the same a or r sound. Hmmmm... And is it just me, or are virtually all Irish girls' names 2-syllable?!

Leafy:

Funny - Saoirse is our #3 choice, so definitely a fave!

I was thinking about Niamh but wondered about the number of "v"sounds in the full name. "Roisin" has a good lilt, but does the ending "r" of the fn blur into the beginning of the mn?

Ailish/Eilish appeal, and have a good rhythm. Hmmm. Thinking.

PPPhd - good points. Ailish/Eilish seems to flow well, doesn't it? Does it work with the surname?
And does Saoirse work after Fionavar, do you think? Something about it seems too similar in the cadence, despite the extra syllable in Fionavar. Am I right? I can't count on my knowledge of Irish pronunciation, that's for sure!
Saoirse has got to be one of the most beautiful names I've ever heard though. Pity my husband can't see beyond the "crazy spelling" - although I do agree it could be a struggle for a child growing up in New Zealand! But I could never bring myself to spell it phonetically. It would lose a big chunk of its beauty and charm, in my opinion!

AK and slk34 - I just HAD to tell you, I was doing my daily reading of London's Telegraph newspaper - specifically, the announcements section - and what do I see in the birth section?!!! Behold:

June 19th 2009

COLVIN
On 1st June 2009, to Henrietta and David, a daughter, Hero Charlotte Moranna.

I feel the same way about Saoirse. We're a little hesitant to use it as a first name, just because of the political connotations in Northern Ireland, but it's still a high-rank choice for us.

Andrea R-I actually thought about the Tilly connection when I was typing that comment to Rhanda LOL. She's happy being Natalie and the endearing nn her father calls her is the only one she answers to otherwise.

PPP-the first thing I thought of was Elyse or something with a similar lilt so Ailish might work well. Colleen would sound good too.

Also, Andrea-Would Bryce work? Or is that R still tricky?

I'm getting confused with all the ppl expecting and needing name help. Anyone up for some recaps besides PPP and Leafy that is?

@Linnaeus and ex-princess--I briefly dated a guy named Satya, and he was forever getting mail addressed to "Miss Satya Lastname" which I found most entertaining!

I think English speakers are used to -a/ah endings when they're more biblical/historical (a la Joshua, Jonah, Ezra, etc)--but they tend to assume that -a endings from cultures/languages they're less familiar with are feminine.

My hubs was quite generous with me when naming our two kids. He let me have my way entirely when naming our eldest (a girl). We had more disagreement the second time around with our son. We went back and forth over which grandfather would be honored in the middle name. In return for my getting the middle name for my deceased father, he got to pick the first name. I drew up a list of approx. 30 pre-approved-by-me names all taken from your book. I told him any name on the list would be fine with me and I would not utter a single word of protest or persuasion. It ended up being a good compromise.

Leafy:

Thanks for sharing the announcement...it's good to know that somebody out there is giving some love to the name Hero!

Andrea R, I agree about cross-cultural naming. My husband and I are so very, very white/Anglo in our heritage with such a very, very English last name that I would have felt silly giving our children even a Spanish or Italian name. Mainstream (by which I suppose I mean Anglicized) Irish/Gaelic names would be okay, but especially in this thread where everyone is suggesting all of these lovely names that I have no idea how to pronounce, it feels like more than that would be...less than genuine. I think we could get away with some French names, too, if we chose carefully.

Believe me, this was a bit of a heart-breaking realization for me after I got married, as prior to that I'd had a years-long love affair with Russian boys' names. Goodbye Sacha! Pyotr! Dmitri! I can't claim you and you don't belong with us. Thank goodness Henry's back in vogue.

Bang on, well said

PPPh: Are you raising your daughter in Ireland or elsewhere? If you are planning on raising her in outside of Ireland--or even if you are planning on raising her there--it might be nice to give her a less-place-specific middle name, just so she has options. She might not be as into all things Irish as you are or might want to move to a place that finds the Irish pronunciations particularly difficult. A middle name with more cross-cultural appeal might be helpful for her.

I couldn't pick a name from another culture; I would feel like a poser. Despite the fact that my background is more Scottish than anything else (about 5/8), plus some Irish, and I grew up going to Catholic schools and church outside Boston, where the community was about 3/4 Irish, with the rest a split between Italian and Polish, I would even feel silly picking very Irish or Scottish names (Gaelic names with common Anglicized spellings would be fine). My feeling is that the last time someone from my family was on the old sod was a great-great grandparent, and claiming a Gaelic name would be like talking in a brogue on St. Patrick's Day. My husband would pick some more Irish names than I would, but he's still at least four generations away from Ireland. That said, I have a friend whose grandmother is Polish. Her mother grew up speaking Polish at home. Her son got a very Polish name. When she married again and had three more children, they each got Italian names, because their father's parents were from Italy. I love her family's names, but I could never pick them for myself.