The Baby Name Wizard

Leafy--- I have heard the harlot stuff..but if Mary Magdalene is forgiven -why not Delilah...perhaps Samson was abusive :) Yes, my schoolmate was Delilah. She was 3 or 4 years ahead of me and I remember thinking "Lithe Delilah". She was bright, strong and feminine. And her mother was my biology teacher...and I always wanted to ask--why did you name her Delilah? Or why couldn't I be named that?--and always loved the name because it was not "cute".

:) So happy to hear that something was worked out with Amazon. Just placed my order and can't wait to get it! Although like I mentioned in the previous post, it seems Barnes and Noble (at least in my area) might be on top of things too.

Laura,
Another suggestion for a post idea, how does the media (popular books/movies/games/etc) influence naming? I'm curious if something like a movie coming out with the title "Julie and Julia" would influence the popularity of these and related names.

I was combing the family tree for names to use, and the only one I found that I liked enough to possibly use was Lily. Except that I don't like it, really, because of the aforementioned cuteness. Hence the attempts to modify to Lila. I like Leah but DH doesn't.

But if we're modifying anyway, maybe I could use something that means beauty to honor MIL Linda? Or something with a meaning related to wisdom/intelligence as a modified Sophia? (Which we are still definitely considering...I just want to consider all our options.) Is there anywhere I can look up names by meaning?

On a similar note, does anyone know of a good source for Japanese names? There are lots in the family tree, and I'm curious about the meanings of some of them. Possible MN candidates as well. :)

Laura-Yay for the book news!

I would pronounce Junna like June-ah. don't know why I "saw" this okay but couldn't "see" those Greek names. It's good to know I'm not the only one who does this though Mirnada.

Thalia-either Th or har T at the beginning and in between an ee-a and ya at the end.

Marie-I posted some Spanish names as alternatives to Sophia on the other thread. I shall repost when I can.

To go with Layla-I second the other poster who mentioned Genevieve and Elliott.

@Amy3--Satya (on your girls camp list) surprised me, since I dated a guy named Satya, and that's the only time I've ever heard it!

@Valerie and Leafy--thanks for the additional Path/Journey suggestions, especially thanks for looking up all the history Leafy! I've been meaning to try to hint names at them...but I don't want to directly mention that I asked for suggestions on a baby name blog since they didn't actually ask me! :} I was just sort of alarmed by Path (because the last name actually ends in -ath, think MacNath, and I find Path MacNath horrifying! So I'm biding my time until the right opportunity to mention some of your wonderful suggestions!

I think Saira and Isra (from Leafy's list) in particular might be quirky enough to catch their eye. Unfortunately Camino is really common as a street beginning here, and I think would get lumped together with Calle, so most people would think they were giving their kid a street name (kind of like boulevard or avenue if you live elsewhere) and it would be weird. Of course, they are actually considering the name PATH (lol!) so maybe I should mention Camino after all...

ordered the book! thanks laura. :]

@Tirzah #12:

re: Quaid.

Hmm. Still researching this one a bit. Every "baby name site" I check gives "Irish form of Walter" as the meaning, but that alone makes me suspicious. These are the same sites that tell you that "Aoife" is a form of "Eva" and not an independent name with its own etymology and history. Secondly, I cannot for the life of me think of the last time I heard ANY form of Walter being used historically in Ireland. Now, it is possible that the name is a contraction of Wade, as in "McWade" = Quaid. More likely, it is a patronymic based on the Irish name Uaid (as in "McUaid"). I don't have an exact meaning for that one, but I believe it is an independent Irish name, unrelated to Wade. I'm making educated guesses here, but guesses are guesses.

For the poster considering new takes on Sophia (apologies for not scrolling back that far!):

Cecily
Sicily
or, really daring, Sicilia
???

I actually vastly prefer Lily to Lila (going against the grain here). That said, I quite like Delilah. I am not religious but usually think of the biblical association. I think knowing a Delilah would get me over that pretty quickly.

I always thought Tahlia and Thalia were different names. Tahlia, pronounced Tar-lee-a, and Thalia, pronounced either Tha-lee-a (with the 'th' sound) or Tey-lee-a. I've only ever known Tahlia's though....

Leafy - about names that have the same origin

(I know you didn't ask me, but I'll give a go..)

Two names such as Isabella and Elizabeth derived from the same source do not bother me on "other people's children" unless they are very close in their present form. *I* notice because it's my hobby, but there are just so many names with obscure relations that I can easily forgive people *ahem..* for not knowing Anna and Jane are related. And Helen and Louise, Beau and Liam... What does bother me, however, is when one name is a diminutive form of the other such as Isabelle and Ella, Jonathan and Jack.

Leafy - about the stripper names
" "I realize that doesn't put the debate to rest or anything, but I think it does speak to a larger cultural association with the name that isn't necessarily controlled by personal association." "

" I would have to disagree - the writer would have chosen that name as one they personally felt was a stripper name. So the choice was still controlled by personal association. "

I don't think an author can take a well-established name with no such associations and turn it into a "striper name". I think the stripper-association has to be seeded in the general public beforehand, or the name has to be unknown so that the story itself is the seed. A story with a stripper named Elizabeth just won't tip the scale.

Somewhat related; I remember reading a comment about a Lohan-movie where she had a double role as a nice girl (Audrey Fleming) and as a stripper (Dakota Moss). The commenter asked rhetorically "guess who's who's". I don't think many would have guessed wrong, because when you're told one of these two *is* a stripper, the analysis goes something like this: Audrey, Fleming - classy old English names, probably not the stripper. Dakota: modern... gotta be her then. However, taken out of that context I don't think everybody's first association with the name Dakota is "stripper".

Hmmmm I'm confused sorry Anna - maybe we are not talking about the same thing, LOL!
Preggy brain is in full flight for me, so I take full responsibility :)

Marie - yes, there is somewhere you can search by meaning:
http://www.behindthename.com/
Quite useful at times!

Leafy - what are you talking about ;-)

If Lily is too cute, what about Lillian? That's my sister's name, (named after our great-grandmother.) She generally goes by Lili, but I call her Lil.

Anne with an E, I think I remember you mentioning recently that you knew a guy named Satya, which I found funny b/c "my" Satya is the only one I know. FWIW, her mom (while from Canada) is ethnically Indian.

Marie-Here's the repost:
Names that style-wise seem similar to Sophia:
(to me atleast)
Isabella (really!)
Lucia
Sadie
Stefania
Rosalia/Rosalinda
Selena
Ione
Eva
Mariah (Ma-rye-uh as in Carey)
Theresa
Ophelia
Elena (but only this sp w pron Eh-lay-na)

All give off a sort of Spanish/Italian flair for me.

for the record, delilah was less a harlot than she was just a liar and a traitor. she's a lot closer to judas than jezabel as far as biblically taboo names go (at least in my book (no pun intended)). that being said, for whatever reason, the negative associations just don't seem to be as strong (i.e. probably no one is going to use jezabel/lucifer/judas, but they might use delilah).

chimu, you're not alone: i prefer lily to lila; for whatever reason it isn't cutesy to me. partially because i think of it as its own name, not a diminuitive, and partially because i've seen the name on adults who wear it quite well. for some reason, after all these years, lila still screams sweet valley twins to me.

i agree that dakota isn't a stripper name until placed next to audrey. from that, i think it would be fair to say that jade isn't necessarily a universal stripper name either.

@Amy3, I just looked up Satya, which isn't on this site, or Behind the Name. According to babynames.com (not sure about this site's accuracy?), it's a Sanskrit word meaning truth, that can be used for boys or girls. The guy I knew was part-Indian too, so maybe it's a gender neutral name in India.

I seem to remember some actress (Alyson Hanigan?) recently naming a daughter Satyana, and I remember thinking that that was maybe the female version of Satya, but maybe it's just a diminutive.

Anna - where are you getting that Helen and Louise are derived from the same name? I wonder if maybe you're thinking of Helen and Lucy, both of which mean "light" or something related, but even so, Helen is Greek and Lucy (Lucia) is Latin... they just mean the same thing, they don't share an origin.

I can't remember who was considering Mira, but I looooooove this name... I think it means different things in different languages, but I know in Latin the adjective mirus, mira means "wonderful, astonishing, extraordinary," which has got to be one of the best name meanings I've ever heard. Mira- is also the stem of a lot of other words with the concept of wonder or admiration, like miraculum (miracle), miratio (wonder, astonishment), mirator (admirer), mirabilis (wonderful, extraordinary, unusual). This is another of my top choices, but my husband isn't a fan because he thinks people will pronounce it MY-ra instead of MEE-ra.

I've been thinking about this for a while...

Dakota has been used significantly *less* in North and South Dakota than in the rest of their naming region and other states.

Madison has been used significantly *less* in Wisconsin and Minnesota than in the rest of the naming region and other states.

Jackson has been used *a little less* in Mississippi than in the rest of the naming region.

The use of Mary in Maryland is within average.

Virginia has been used significantly *more* in Virginia and West Virginia than in the rest of their naming regions and other states.

Caroline (not -na) has been used significantly *more* in North and South Carolina than in the rest of the naming region and other states, but Charlotte isn't.

Louis has *only** been used in Illinois but not in Missouri and the rest of the naming region.
*NameMapper only shows top 100.

I wonder if anybody has an explanation?!

This is great news. Thank you, Laura! I have a C-section scheduled on 7/30 (baby's gender is unknown) and although we are set with a girl's name, we have no name at all for a boy. Not one! We really need the revised book, as we've gone through BNW1 over and over and are still at a loss. (The problem is we already used our favorite boy's name for our first child, Owen Alexander). Oh, and if anyone has any brillant ideas for a brother for Owen, feel free to share. :-) Our last name starts with an M, and that is another issue. (Liam sounds like Leah with the last name, Graham M___ sounds like mumbling, not a name, etc.).....

EVie - Sorry, the Helen and Louise is a total mixup on my part. It was Ludivine and Heloise I was thinking of with Louise, and I abandoned the Helen examples because they're more obvious. Note to self: proof-read!

One of a million Kimberly's:

I like your son's name; here are some suggestions I think you might also like, based on what you said. I put middle names in too, but I don't know if they are anywhere close to what you're looking for. Let me know if any of these hit near the mark:

Luke/Lucas Benjamin
Grant Christopher
Griffin Samuel
Austin Zachary
Eli/Elias/Elijah Matthew
Henry Nicholas
Landon James

Good luck!

one of a million kimberlys:
for some reason, the name reid is coming to mind for you. no idea how you feel about this, but i think it works with owen.

1 in a million Kimberlys: Here are some more ideas for you with help from Nymbler-
Gavin Anthony
Simon Oliver
Colin Matthew
Nolan William
Jackson Austin
Lucas Preston
Andrew Ross
Connor Michael
Logan Henry
Ian Maxwell
Dylan James
Nicholas Gregory
Travis Oscar
Miles Jasper
Levi Daniel

Anna-What about Camden in NJ?
2008=204 overall SS#
Not in use in NJ at all according to Namemapper
other surrounding states NH=63 and Maine=87 in 2007. Weird!!

New baby alert! Sim0ne El0ise was born last week, heathy and well-named. Thanks to all of you for helping me help my friend decide on a middle name for the baby several weeks ago. She said that the overwhelming support of Eloise over Joanna helped seal the deal, as did all of the really wonderful middle name suggestions you came up with. She realized she really preferred Eloise when none of the other great suggestions clicked for her in the same way. Thanks again!

Zoerhenne - yep, that's another great example. I wonder why the place names sometimes have a positive effect and sometimes a negative effect. These things are usually not completely random!?

In the case of Camden, those who live nearby know it as a rather industrial city with a very high crime rate. Not a particularly pleasant association, so I'm not at all surprised the name didn't make the list in New Jersey. The same reasoning doesn't apply to Madison, though.

Ok, working theory. U.S. place names are generally less popular near those places, but the strength of the effect depends on how strongly the name is associated with the place. So it doesn't surprise me that Caroline and Virginia remain popular in those places - they are long established names that don't immediately bring the state to mind, and they seem to fit the style of name that are generally popular in those regions, right? Whereas Dakota is much newer and more likely to be tied to the state if you live there. And Jackson has more history as a name than Madison or Camden, so it's popularity decreases less in Mississippi. Anyone got any good counterexamples?

Interesting! Maybe there's a correlation with the place names popularity to how large or populated the area is... I have a friend in SC who has commented to me before that she knows sooo many Carolines and Carolinas being born, but maybe when its a specific city it loses some appeal because you really associate it with that one place. Those in South or North Carolina might not necessarily like all the areas of their state, but overall they probably like the general area of the Carolinas a lot and have that pride factor. Not sure my theory really works for the Dakotas, but maybe because they're less populated in general there's something to that.

I'm from Maryland, and though I do have a sister named Mary, I'm definitely not surprised there's not much of a difference in Mary popularity there... Mainly because most of us pronounce it Marilynd, rather than Mary-Land, so its not even much of an association.

I feel like its probably also just the stars all aligning in some cases... ie. I think its pretty common for people to think the Carolinas and Savannah are pretty places and also pretty names. Even if a Marylander felt really happy about their locale, I can't imagine them going with Annapolis or Baltimore or Chesapeake, haha.

This is totally off topic but it is my first post and I need reassurance! My 2 year old son is named Jackson (Jack)--a name my husband and I both loved because of the nn and the Johnny Cash song. Now everybody and their brother has a Jackson, although I have not heard anyone mention the musical connection. My new daughter is named Lila, a name that is not yet common where I live but seems to now be viewed as trendy. I am kind of ridiculously preoccupied with this. If we have a third (big "if" right now) my favorite names are Celia for a girl and Hank for a boy (husband does not like). Does anyone see these as rising quickly and causing me further name anxiety?

Sarah smile,

I think you're on to something with your theory. The most obvious difference between the names is that Dakota, Madison and Jackson are modern names while Virginia, Caroline(a) and Louis are "old classics". Virginia and Caroline(a) must already fit the naming style in the Virginias and N/S Carolina.

Another thing with Louis: It has been used a lot in Louisiana but not in any of the other states in the same naming region. But there is no such effect on Louise in the region (it was never in top 100).

Another observation:

While Jackson has been used *a little less* in Mississippi than in the rest of the naming region, Jack has been used *a little more* in those two states. So, if you live close to Jackson you're probably inclined to use Jack rather than Jackson?

1 in a million Kimberleys: Devin, Damon, Damien?

Landry: I don't think you have to worry with Celia or Hank. The only Celia I know is in her 20s. I don't know any Hanks. There was a recent discussion about how even though Henry is somewhat common, they probably won't all go by Hank.

The person who asked about Japanese name meanings: I know that -ko means child so Hanako is flower child, Haruko is spring child. I think this is mostly used for girls. -O is often written with the sign for male so I guess Haruo would mean Spring boy? Not sure... I think you might be able to use a regular English-Japanese dictionary. Things like haru and hana would be in there for example.

I'm a little behind but wanted to chime in on a few things:

Coll- I don't know what you should do about "trading" the name, but I love Cornelia Maud! My grandmother's name was Cornelia and I think it's great, she was nee-nee to many (NO idea how they would have spelled it) but I love Nell. Lia is great too if she ever feels the need to fit in more and my cousin named for my gma actually loved the nn Corn (she's the epitomy of spunk so it worked for her). Just wanted to give the name a shout out:). Josephine Edith is nice too though!

I don't know how to pronounce Thalia, I've only known Talias which is more obvious. It got me thinking about Esther though. I've known 2 (maybe 3) Esthers who all say es-ter. However according to my dad my great-grandmother was es-ther and he's quite adamant about that. Is that a common alternative pronunciation? I've never heard anyone else say it that way.

I don't have time to look right now, but I wonder whether the NY burrough names are more popular around NYC or not. I knew a Brooklyn and a Memphis born around the same time north of the city (not upstate though). It struck me at the time that Brooklyn was pretty close to NYC, but Memphis may have had some parental connection to TN.

Brooklyn seems most popular in Utah! Not in the Top 100 in NY at all, which I find really odd. Utah has always interested me... anytime I look up a name I like in the Namemapper, its always more popular in Utah than in Maryland.

didn't laura say a while back that name trends often begin in utah (and the surrounding states)? i know my name (emily) started showing up there long before any place else. in 1972 it is number 39, and i don't think it's even in the top 100 in any other state. in 1975, it's number 9, with all the other states being roughly 40s-90s. she gave some better examples, but i can't recall what they were.

and i have heard esther pronounced "es-ther", but i think it's fairly uncommon. most are es-ter.

update: here is the post i was thinking of regarding names and utah...
http://www.babynamewizard.com/archives/2008/11/name-spotlight-spencer

Landry: It's funny that you should mention that because we were planning on Celia for this baby if it was a girl (it's not, though) and that was one of the things I was thinking about. I've never known anyone with this name or heard anyone else really considering it so I don't think it's about to take off.

Anna: That is exactly what I was referring to when I said that I was surprised by how popular Caroline is in SC. If I'd know when she was born that we were going to move here I don't think I would have chosen that name. It's really popular! I know that people down here have a lot more state/regional-pride than people I've met from other places (the whole state shut down for Confederate Independence Day!) so maybe the popularity of Caroline/a has something to do with that?

Also, having lived in NJ I can tell you that I would never use or recommend Camden because no matter how many times I drive through lovely Camden, SC, I can't get nasty Camden, NJ out of my mind when I hear it.

It's too bad that the state stats are only recorded for the top 100 because I'm interested to find out the popularity of Georgia in GA vs everywhere else. (It only placed in the top 100 in Vermont, of all places.)

And now for something completely unrelated and probably a dumb question: Does anyone know if first and middle names are counted in the SSA statistics or only first names? For example, if I name my child Sara Matilda does the SSA mark down a point for Sara and a point for Matilda or just record one for Sara? Just curious...

emilyrae - Good recall! I wasn't really keeping an eye on these posts back in November.

Vermont is actually another one where my favorites are often in the top 100 but no where else!

KristinFromSC -- I actually once asked Laura a question about the middle names awhile back, and tragically, no, there is no middle name data to go on at all if I remember her response correctly. I was curious how many people chose Rose as a middle name and how long this was going to continue. I was a mn Marie growing up, and I felt like everyone had that or Elizabeth (my fn) as a middle name, but now I think Rose may have surpassed the years of Maries and Lynns. It does just sound so pretty after most any name, I can understand the appeal, but it seems like its gotten out of hand.

So to clarify, just the first name gets the point.

kristin from sc,

i am almost positive that the ssa stats are only first names.

also, south carolina shut down for confederate independence day...? wow. that...amazes me, honestly.

Hello all- I hate to jump into a discussion and ask a question. But, I have one....

We are expecting our first daughter next month, and choosing a name has been an adventure. Our son's name is Connor Josef Jayden (for what it's worth, and Jayden was the name his birth mother gave him (NMS), we kept it as a second MN for him).

At this time, I think we have decided on the name. But, it would be a "double" first name of Eva Marie. Now, with a double first name, does any one have tips? Should we hypen as: Eva-Marie? Blend it together as EvaMarie or Evamarie (that looks odd). Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions?

Ideally the middle name will be my grandmother's "Italian" name which she always told me was Chelsa (or at times Chelseana). But, she was "Americanized" to Elsie. I was very surprised to learn Chelsea/Chelsa was not at ALL Italian :)

To all you NE's -- what do you think of a little Eva Maire Chelsa (LN rhymes with Powell--think of the rich couple on Gillian's Island :) ), possible NN of Evie?

I'd just like to hear your thoughts.... :)
Thanks Much!!!

So funny that Rose is so popular as a middle name now. When I was growing up in England in the 70's, I was too embarrassed to tell anyone that that was my middle name as they always laughed at me.
A 'normal' middle name was Anne, Jane, Catherine, Elizabeth or Mary. I never came across another Rose until recently. Now I love my middle name and love it as a first name too, along with Rosa (which I think is an unused gem).

Betsy- Utah, who knew??

emilyrae- Thank you that's sort of what I figured but I thought I'd do a shout-out.

For mn's the ssa is definitely only first names, unfortunately.

I do think Georgia being popular in VT is pretty interesting. I've known one Georgia in MA but that's it!

KristinFromSC,

The NameMapper shows that Virginia was popular in several states in 1960es (that was leftover popularity from it's peak in the 1920es) and when it's popularity died out it remained popular in Virginia for a long time.

South Carolina was the first state to have Caroline in the top 100 in 1979. (I'm disregarding fluctuating appearances). Since then it has become increasingly popular both in SC, NC and other states. Most years it has been most popular in SC. The name seems to have peaked in 2004 but it's popularity is still higher in SC than anywhere else.

The name Georgia has been increasing from ca 1975 to 2006 where it peaked. Now, the very good question is whether Georgia follows the same path as Caroline and Virginia or it's different?!

Jenny L3igh,

Georgia is #95 in VT so I don't know if I'd call it popular. It could be lingering just behind the top #100 cut-off in other states.

Maybe I was meant to be a Utahian? I was hoping Utah's rankings would give me some insight on which of my favorites will be increasing in popularity in the future, but its not really turning out that way. Theory dashed. Still, Lucy and Clara are my toprunners and the difference between ranking in Utah and the rest of the country seems drastic with those!

Hello all,
I was wondering what people's thoughts and associations are with the name Elsa (possible nn Elsie). I want to bounce the name around in "neutral" territory, as my husband's family tends to give negative responses to all our suggestions.
Thanks.

Re: the name Brooklyn in New York - speaking as a native New Yorker, I cannot IMAGINE anyone I grew up with using this as a name. This isn't because Brooklyn is a bad place - there are very lovely parts of Brooklyn. But it is a huge borough (if Brooklyn were a separate city, it would still be the 4th largest city in the US after New York, Los Angeles and Chicago - bigger than Houston). I tend to associate it with big-city things, like subways and traffic and crowds, and I have a really hard time seeing it as a pretty, feminine name.

Then again, I haven't lived in the city for a few years, so I don't know what people are doing with naming these days. New York is an interesting place for naming, because I'd say that a significant percentage of people of childbearing age who live there are transplants from elsewhere. So, does that mean that New York baby name trends are skewed because of all the outside influences? If we were able to analyze native New Yorker parents as a subset of all New York births, would the naming trends be different? Or are the transplants influenced more by how they presently identify than where they are originally from?

EVie - maybe it is easier to use Virginia in VA/WV and Caroline in NC/SC because Virginia and Caroline(a) are rock-solid names that were names long before they became states? Unlike Brooklyn which has not been a (mainstream) name for very long?