The Baby Name Wizard

Crystal--I am not a big fan of Elsa, I knew an Elsa that I strongly disliked, so it's hard for me to overcome, I think of it as very Germanic/bossy (in the same realm as Bertha or Olga if that helps). Elsie is better for me because of that. That being said, I think if it wasn't for my personal associations, it might remind me of the beautiful German spy lady from Indiana Jones! :)

Valerie--how funny you mentioned Rosa. The Valarie I mentioned before (with her unusual spelling) is actually Valarie Rosa, and her nickname is V-Rosa!

EVie: as far as considering NYC births and how different it would be from the states births, it would depend on what the numbers were-- if most of the babies are born in NYC, then I would expect the opposite, where the NY state names would differ from the overall "NY" stats, but NYC would closely follow

Lovey,

As a person with a double first name (space, no hyphen), I like the hyphen most for Eva-Marie. It seems to fit with with the style of the name. I think it would also work with just a space, as in Eva Marie Saint.

Lovey, I prefer either the hyphen or the space. Smushed together, either with the M upper- or lowercase, looks strange to me. Perhaps since it's a double fn with a separate mn, the hyphen would be best.

Crystal, I love Elsa. Such a nice current sound, but still different than the /elle/ and /ella/ names. Plus Elsie is super cute.

Lovey-I would prefer the hyphen. It just looks nicer and I would then be inclined to SAY eva-Marie not some other weird pron if they were smuched. The space would work too since your ds has 2 mn's.

Crystal-Elsa/Elsie is nms. We've had discussions in the past how it reminds some of the Borden cow.

EVie-As far as transplants associating more with the old place then with the new, I will say I do. I think I am still a New Englander at heart and with naming.

I like Elsa, because it reminds me of the lioness in "Born Free".

Anne with an e- how funny about your friend! The other lady I met with the middle name Rose was also a Valerie. We were astonished to meet each other.

"for the record, delilah was less a harlot than she was just a liar and a traitor"

Hmmmmmm. Delilah didn't just betray Samson, she was also sleeping with him, and they weren't married. Shock! Horror! ;) It's unclear whether they were lovers or if she was a prostitute, but either way they were not married and having sex - something that only a woman of poor moral fibre would have done in those days - and these days too, depending on your religious/moral views! Unfortunately Samson doesn't seem to get the same bad rap for being a fornicator, LOL! Ahhhh those wonderful double standards.

Regardless, I agree that Delilah isn't in the same league as Jezebel and Judas, but my mother doesn't seem to agree :(

well, of course, the harlot vibe is there too, but i was always under the impression that the worst of it was that she was a liar. i mean the story goes that samson was in love with her and that she was paid by the philistenes (excuse me if that spelling is incorrect)to betray him. i suppose you could argue that the story is biased to favor the man, but i don't think the manipulating a man with sex in order to betray him (in a way that results in his death) in order to get rich is a very good image. i would say it's actually worse than the harlot image (to me).

that being said, i also think samson was a bit of an idiot. both nice names though.

Lovey - I prefer the look of Eva Marie but if you want to get people to use both names I think Eva-Marie is best. I also don't mind the look of the hyphen. I don't think the smushed versions work in this case. Btw, Eva-Marie sounds like a nice double first name to me. It is also a point of difference from the straight Ava, Eva, Evies around.

Regarding middle names - Rose is by far and away the most popular middle name for girls where I am. I swear every second birth announcement is a Something_Rose. Lots of friends have used it too. While it's pretty, I'm very sick of it. I actually still find Rose as a first name charming though! For boys the most common middle names seem to be James, John and Alexander.

For friends my age that I grew up with, Louise is the most common middle. About half my friends have Louise as their middle, closely followed by Jane and Anne. When we used to play 'guess the middle name' as teenagers, I would usually get most peoples without much trouble. However, no one ever picked mine, which is Tracy. While I'm not a big fan of Tracy, it's nice having a different middle name, especially since I shared my first name with many others in my age group.

P.S. Have you seen that episode of Friends where Rachel has her baby and then decides that the two names her and Ross have picked out just aren't right? The first is Isabella, but "she just doesn't feel like an Isabella", and the other name is Delilah - "Oh great, suddenly she sounds like a Biblical whore!" It's very funny. Actually, even funnier is the "veto" conversation that Ross and Rachel have as they try to come up with a short list of names - I think many of us can relate to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeD-xAdRpIE

Scroll through to about 3:50

"my husband isn't a fan because he thinks people will pronounce it MY-ra instead of MEE-ra"
Oops, I would be one of those people. I've never known a Mira but in my head I've definitely been saying "MY-ra" as I read the name. Is Mira Sorvino MEE-ra then? I had no idea!

One of a Million - If I were going to find another boy's name to go with Owen Alexander I would opt for another strong and older name like Owen. I liked the suggestion of Reid. I also like the sounds of Vaughn, Bennett, Byron and Simon. It might help a little more if you told us your girls name to give us more examples of your style.

Lovey - I think Eva Maria no hypen, no smooshing works just fine. I knew a girl named Sarabeth and even though it's a very easy name every tiem I saw it written I paused.

Crystal - I like Elsa over Elsie. I think it sounds classy and fun.

Leafy - My husband and I have the 'veto' conversation all the time. "Is it just me or is 'Veto' starting to sound good?" I also pull out Phoebo when he's annoying me. I love Friends. I was actually really disappointed that they didn't give us more insight into Chandler and Monica's naming process, afterall she's the one who 'gave' the name Emma to Rachel. She'd apparently had it planned since she was a kid.

BAH. thanks, leafy, i'd seen that clip, but it'd been a very long time. that was hilarious.

Lovey - I really like Eva-Marie. If you want people to call her both names, and make it obvious that both names are her first name, then definitely hyphenate them.

Crystal - Elsa/Elsie are nms, but don't worry about your relatives - I've found that once a baby is born and named, people get used to whatever name they have and most are not rude enough to comment if they don't like it. Anyway, no matter what name you choose, not everyone will like it. It is your child, so if you love Elsa then go for it!

Emilyrae - glad it gave you a giggle! My favourite line is "I like Ruth. What about Ruth?" "Oh, I'm sorry, are we having an 89-year-old?" ha ha chortle chortle
And "Sandrine... that's a really pretty name... for an industrial solvent!"

I just checked it out, and yes, Mira Sorvino pronounces her name "MEER-ah". Nice!

Anna, I'm curious why you think Jonathan and Jack are the same name? Jonathan derives from Nathan, so Jack would be an odd diminutive! Things are rarely as simple as they seem, if even NE get mixed up I can see how non-NE can use too names not knowing how they are related...just saying!

FWIW, I know a Quaid in his mid-thirties. I always assumed that it was a last name but now I'm curious!

I'm not a fan of hyphens in names. I think it makes the name look messy. I grew up with lots of double names around me and none of them used hyphens. I don't remember any problems although I don't have first hand experience. I know that double names are more popular in the South (which is where I was), but everyone understood that once a child was introduced with a double names, that's what it was. Maybe in a different context a hyphen would be necessary.

Elaine-That's a good point for Lovey to consider. Lovey if you are in the South then you might not need a hyphen and the 2 names will be "accepted" as such because that is very common there. In other parts though, you may need the hyphen to get the double name flow for others if that is a concern to you.

I ordered the new BNW from Amazon after Laura's announcement yesterday by following the posted link. I have Amazon Prime so it was supposed to come tomorrow, but it actually came today so I was happy. BUT it's the old version!!! So annoying because now I have to return it and if I order another one, there's no way to know if it's going to be another old copy. Help!

Re Jonathan & Jack - I found this on Benhind The Name (the guys who put that together are really thorough in their etymology research)

JONATHAN m English, German, Scandinavian, Dutch, Biblical
From the Hebrew name יְהוֹנָתָן (Yehonatan) (contracted to יוֹנָתָן (Yonatan)) meaning "YAHWEH has given"...

JACK m English
Derived from Jackin (earlier Jankin), a medieval diminutive of JOHN

JOHN m English, Biblical
English form of Iohannes, the Latin form of the Greek name Ιωαννης (Ioannes), itself derived from the Hebrew name יוֹחָנָן (Yochanan) meaning "YAHWEH is gracious"...

So I can see why Anna thought that Jack and Jonathan have the same derivative. They almost do.

As for Nathan:

NATHAN m English, French, Biblical
Means "giver" in Hebrew נָתָן

So I can see that Nathan and Jonathan are also related etymologically.

Yes, I too have total sympathy for people who name their children Nathan John or Isabella Elizabeth, and don't realise their eytomological link. My own personal opinion is, who cares? If parents like both names, then they should use them. (Especially if you are honouring 2 different people with the 2 names.) Only the people who bother to do the extra research, or have a special interest in name history, know about this anyway! And I'm sure they are a minority of the population.
And let's face it, even name-niks can like one derivation but not the other (eg like Isabella but not Elizabeth, or vice versa) and someone telling them that "they are the same name" is not going to change the fact that the 2 names look different, sound different, have different connotations, and will work differently with the same surname. For all practical purposes, I'd argue that Isabella and Elizabeth, and many others like them, are NOT the same name anymore, although they have derived from the same source.
I await your protests! ;)

We are still trying to name DD due in just a couple weeks now. We are considering some traditional names like Anna and Julia, but also some less traditional ones like Linnea, Aurelia, and I like someone's earlier suggestion of Mira. DS is Isaac. So my question is, do the unusual names match at all with Isaac? Or does Isaac restrict us to the traditional ones?

golden pig,
oh no! i (and a lot of us) ordered from amazon! i am so disappointed. amazon has never failed me before; i am very grumpy. : /

Cathie - I've seen Jack used a pet form of Jonathan so often that I consider it one of the "standard" nicknames (eg. Jack Bristow, Alias). Therefore it would bother my inner NE to see Jack and Jonathan as given names siblings (and Ellie and Elizabeth, Nathan and Nate). It doesn't matter that Jack *can* be a nickname to other names as well (John, Jackson) because it's still a nickname to Jonathan. But, I'm known to be picky..

Ahhh I understand what you're saying Anna! Personally I don't know any Jonathans with the nickname Jack, but if you do then that makes total sense.

At least, it does to my preggy brain. That might not be much consolation, LOL!

Guest - Personally I think you could do Aurelia, Mira or Linnea with Isaac. It's really common for people to go for more conservative boys names and less conservative girls names, so you'd be totally following the norm with this pairing! Also, Isaac is not John or Jack or Tom - Isaac seems just as interesting to me as the girls names you've listed. I like your taste in names, by the way! :)

Oh no! I ordered as well and have Amazon Prime so it should be here today. I'm hoping there wasn't a mix up between the publisher and Amazon. Amazon is going to be getting a lot of returns if that is the case!

Guest, I think any of the girl names you're considering (love Linnea btw!) work well with Isaac.

I tend to agree with Leafy's point ^^ about names that share an original derivation, but have now diverged enough to be considered "separate but related" names (e.g., Elizabeth and Isabella). I will admit, though, to certain names where I'm rather unforgiving about using them for sibs, never mind bestowing both on the same child (e.g., John, Sean, Evan, Ian, and Jack).

I'm distressed to hear someone ordered BNW2 from Amazon only to receive the 1st ed. For the rest of you who have ordered from Amazon, will you let us know if you get the updated edition? I haven't gotten around to ordering yet, and now I'm wondering if I should hold off a bit.

Guest, I love your name choices! I had Julia, Mira, Linnea and Aurelia on my list. I think we are going to go in a different direction but still have a couple months left to decide. :) I agree that any of them would work really well with Isaac.

I'm reading The Great Decision about Marbury v. Madison and have just found out two of Thomas Jefferson's daughters were Mary and Maria. I'd draw the line there, too!

I am ok with Mary and Maria, and Jonathan and Nathan and sib sets-- as long as each child has a diff. sound and spelling, so they are free to be individuals.
I actually like Jonathan (Jon) and Nathan (Nate) somehow.

Guest, I like Mira especially with Isaac. A relative of my husband has children named Joshua and Mira, and the two names go together very well.

I've lived in NYC for the past decade and currently live in Brooklyn itself. I've never met a Brooklyn here. I've never even heard of one or heard of parents considering the name. My friends are just starting to have children and I don't have any myself, so I may be out of the naming loop. But I volunteer at a local school. And I ride the bus, walk through parks, etc. I've heard pretty much every other "trendy" name you could imaine (oh, the excess of Jacks) but never, never, never Brooklyn. I think it would just be too uncool!

Leafy - thanks! I find it really interesting how all these seemingly different names are related. It's like one big spider-web of interbred derivatives. I'm soon going to be afraid to dig much deeper - eventually we'll be left with a small handful of truly different original names and have almost nothing to choose from ;-)

Coll,

You should check Brooklyn in NameMapper - it is completely absent from top 100 in most of New England (the Neotraditional region), but popular elsewhere and #7 in Utah. This fits very well with your observation.

Another peculiarity with Jackson: The name is not very popular (outside top 100) in New Mexico *only* and Jack is in the lower end at #83. But both Jackson and Jack have gone as high as #4 in several states. Is there a geographical reason for the New Mexican's dislike of Jack(son)??

Leafy-I agree with you. If you are naming after somone then it is a bit strange but understandable to name your child Jonathan Jack or Jonathan Nathan or such. It feels to me like Isabella and Elizabeth are different but I can see when you post the entymologies that I stand corrected. I still don't care for similar sibsets though (esp twins). Brian/Brianna; Stephen/Stephanie; John/Joanna; Emma/Emily; etc.

Guest-I think Linnea goes quite well with Isaac. I like the fact that they are the same length roughly and the same stress is in each.

What do you all think of the sp Cathrin? I don't personally care for it. It reminds me of aspirin and seems too short or like something is missing. Much prefer Catherine or Kathryn.

zoerhenne,
as i almost always dislike non-standard spellings (i'm a bit close-minded, i suppose), i have to say i do not like cathrin. i'm partial to the kathryn spelling myself.

Thanks for all your feed back! To answer a question we are in Ohio, so not the south. I thought the mushed Evamarie looked odd.

It will be a game time decision on the Eva Marie versus Eva-Marie. The small things you know? On the other hand, we could walk out of the hospital with a Fiona for all I know :)

Does anyone have any better suggestions they could throw out there? DH and I are 90% on Eva Marie, some of our family members have already started stating their options, with nick names suchs as "Evil Marie." Ugh, you just can't please the masses all the time...

The kicker is, we decided on Connor's name in all of 5 minutes, this discussion for our daughter's name has been ongoing for MONTHS. Yikes.

zoerhenne- The spelling of 'Catherin' definately looks like something is missing there.

As for regional names such as Brooklyn, we have a town near us named Amelia. The town itself has a bit of a reputation of being a little country-fied. I have not run across any Amelia's near here, and I think it's all due to this town. Funny, I never really pondered that, especially since Amelia is becoming so popular. Interesting topic you brought up!

Happy Friday to you all :)

Hi,
I have a question about the flow of a first name with the last name. I love the name Isabella, but last name starts with Ells. Does Isabella Ells... Have too many "l" sounds?
Thanks.

zoerhenne,

I'm also not a fan of Cathrin. I prefer traditional spellings. So Catherine or Katherine or Katharine for me.

Actually, I don't pronounce Catherine and Cathrin/Kathryn exactly the same - at least in my head I don't. Catherine has a fraction of an extra syllable in the middle. I'm not sure you'd be able to hear the difference but if someone recorded me saying it and analysed it digitally I think they would detect it.

Melon, I thinks Isabella Ells... does run together too much.

zoerhenne, I prefer traditional spellings of Catherine/Katherine/Katharine and can barely tolerate Kathryn so Cathrin is right out for me. My daughter's mn is Katherine and I agree with Anna that there is a slight extra syllable in the middle for me, too.

Crystal:

I do like Elsa - but if you still have doubts, might I suggest Ilsa/Ilse? Very similar, and much more "sophisticated European" to my ears.

(sorry to chime in late)

Lovey,

I vote for Eva Marie without the hyphen. Introduce her as Eva Marie, state that she goes by Eva Marie, and correct people who address her incorrectly. It is just as rude to shorten Eva Maria to "Eva" as it is to call Elizabeth "Lizzie".

Chelsa vs Chelsea: I prefer Chelsea, mainly because I haven't heard Chelsa before.

Other suggestions, since you asked:
Evèlia [3 syllable E-vayl-yah, not E-veh-LEE-ah] I've known a Spanish girl with this name.
Evan Marie - Evan is nice and modern and goes well with Connor.
Evelina - feels a bit like Eva Maria without the double name issue.

i was always under the impression that kathryn was considered quite traditional. am i mistaken?

(and i agree that catherine/katherine is pronounced differently (slightly) than kathryn)

emilyrae,

Kathryn is not a recently invented spelling, but I don't know how long it has been used. But the Katherine spelling must be even older: Katarina - Katharina - Katherine - Kathryn.

Unfortunately Amazon lied. I ordered this book after reading that they agreed to ship the 2nd edtion, and they send me the first. Man, I'm a sucker.

well according to voyager, kathryn was number 94 in the 1880s, so i feel like it's pretty authentic...

emilyrae, I guess it's not so much that I dispute Kathryn's claim to being a traditional spelling of the name so much as it is that I just don't care for it. It *feels* more invented to me, even if it isn't.

ah, i see. that is interesting. i suppose i see what you are saying; however, i feel quite differently.

I just received my copy of the book that I ordered using that link from Amazon. It was the old edition. So watch out! :(

:( Check. Old edition from Amazon here as well. :(

goldenpig, What a disappointment! I thought about applying for Amazon prime just to get the book sooner, but then decided not to. My latest email from Amazon says my copy should be here by Tuesday. If it's not the red circle/revised copy, I plan to call them: I think Amazon should pay the return postage both because of their assurance that it would be the new edition and because their website *shows* the cover of that edition. But does Amazon have a toll free number? (I know B&N.com does.) I just looked on their website but couldn't find it.