Does a hard-to-pronounce baby name hurt you?
Last week I suggested that we don't give the written versions of names their due. We call Chloe and Kloee mere alternate versions of the same name, as if the "real" name is what's spoken aloud. Yet in today's world, our written names do much of the heavy lifting of making first impressions and establishing our reputations.
A timely study tries to shed some light on how much influence the pure written name might have. As reported around the world, researchers found a "name-pronunciation effect": that people respond better to names that are easy to pronounce, and that this response has real-world repercussions in terms of life success. And pronounceability, in their measures, is quality of the written name.
How much store should you put in this finding?
Looking at the actual research paper, it's a series of five experiments, most of which can be thought of as initial probes into the topic. The real meat comes in the fifth and final study, the only one that looks at names at large in the real world. The authors recorded the names and positions of 500 lawyers in large American law firms. Taking some care to account for factors like educational background and "Anglo-American vs. foreign" name identity, they found a measurable effect of name pronounceability on attorneys' rank in their firms’ hierarchies.
This is a careful enough study, and an intuitive enough result, to assume the result is accurate. I do have a major reservation about the research, though. It's not about the actual experiments per se, but the way the authors describe their findings. Here's the start of their abstract:
"Names are rich sources of information. They can signal gender, ethnicity, or class; they may connote personality characteristics ranging from warmth and cheerfulness to morality. But names also differ in a much more fundamental way: some are simply easier to pronounce than others. Five studies provide evidence for the name-pronunciation effect: easy-to-pronounce names (and their bearers) are judged more positively than difficult-to-pronounce names."
Would you ever guess from that description that their study looked almost exclusively at surnames? Surely the gender, class and cheerfulness information they describe is carried primarily by the given name. (At least that’s true in the U.S., where the law firm study was done.)
Yet throughout the paper the authors adopt a "names-is-names" attitude, making no distinction between hereditary family surnames and fashion-sensitive given names. The past research they cite is about first names, the experiments the run are on last names, and their conclusions are simply about "names." Even in the few cases where the experiments might have included full names, they make no mention of the component parts. It's not clear how they would determine their "Anglo-American vs. foreign" categories for names like, say, James Nwokeji or Giovanni Smith.
It seems to me this is taking advantage of the broadness of the English word "name." In a language where distinct words apply to given names and family names, the entire paper would have been different.
There's a world of difference between American given names and surnames, in the way they're assigned, they way they change over time, and the way we all interpret them. There's also ample reason to suspect that a name-pronunciation effect could work quite differently in given names. When it comes to baby names, spelling is a cultural choice fraught with significance.
For instance, the perception of conformity to tradition -- mostly a non-issue in surnames -- is a powerful dimension in given names . Do you think that the phonetically simpler Kloee would give a girl a step up in a legal career over Chloe? Or that clarifying the ambiguous Madeline to Maddalinn would yield more positive responses and higher societal status? And that's just one factor. Spelling of given names can also signal ethnic differences and more.
Because of the freedom of choice parents have, given names carry more dimensions of information than surnames. That means that a dimension like pronunciation fluency could well be significant in surnames but be swamped by other factors – including other written-only factors – in given names. So when it comes to news you can use for choosing a name for your baby, I'd put this particular worry at the bottom of your list.
Comments
There's also the issue between first impressions and long-term difficulty. My surname gives people trouble because it's long. But once I tell them how it's pronounced, the most common reaction is "oh, just like it's spelled" and then they have no problems.
A name like Chloe has some initial Klo vs Kloee confusion but isn't hard once that confusion is dispelled. A name like Iztaccíhuatl is going to be problematic even after the bearer has told someone how it's supposed to be pronounced.
Did you see that Jason Bateman's new daughter is Maple Sylvie? Wow! I'd love to hear the history of Maple as a first name (if there is one).
I have a hard to pronounce first name, but an easy to pronounce last name. I wonder how that combo works? One of the many reasons I didn't change my last name upon marriage is that my husband's last name is hard to pronounce. Who wants two hard to pronounce names? Not I!
Maple Sylvie? I like Sylvie & I like Maple even though I've never seen it used as a name before. But the combination of them together makes me think maple syrup.
Yes, it hurts you. It makes it less likely that you get called in to interviews since the person calling you will not know how to pronounce your name. This is also a problem for me with my foreign name. Good thing I am self-employed these days...
My husband is American of French Canadian descent and I am horrified at his pronunciation of French-Canadian names. Every time he says one out loud, I cringe! Using the first name example given above, Chloe, I don't think any Canadian (English or French) would think twice about how to pronounce it. Or the last name Bombardier (bomb-bar-dee-yay) never Bomb-ba-Deer. I realize their study was done only at American firms but if someone introduced themselves as Kloh Bomb-ba-Deer spelled Chloe Bombardier, my instinct would be to correct them (yes, even in how to pronounce their own name) and think they are too stupid to know their own heritage. It certainly wouldn't make me eager to hire them.
I've been thinking about this so much lately! We named our infant daughter Imogen, not realizing how difficult the people around us would find the pronunciation. Many people confuse it with "Im-oh-GENE", some say "Im-OH-gen (soft g, rhymes with hen)" and a doctor last week called her "Imagine". It's been 6 months and we've never yet had someone prounounce it the way we intended on the first try. We think it's a lovely name, but I worry that she will spend the rest of her life explaining, defending and possibly hating it. I wish I'd known....
When my dad got his American citizenship, he took Joseph as his new given name, relegating his original (very Hungarian) given name to the previously-empty middle name spot. He always said that a primary factor in this choice was that prospective employers kept passing over him because they couldn't pronounce any part of his name. (I wonder whether some of them were also confused about his gender: Csaba doesn't exactly read "masculine" in English...)
bergmm, so how *do* you pronounce Imogen?
bergmm, sorry you're dealing with that! I would've thought Imogen Heap would make the name familiar enough that at least some people would get it right. Hang in there! Hopefully it will be one of those things where you/she only have to correct them once, and then they'll remember.
Sorry to see that this study does apply to surnames. My kids have my husband's short, but non-phonetic and unfamiliar foreign last name, so it was important to me that they have easily recognizable first names. If this study is right, maybe that won't help them as much as if we'd given them my common, easily pronounced surname. I do think the unfamiliar surname even creates confusion about my daughter's first name. As I've mentioned before, it's Minn@, pronounced phonetically as min-ah (like minnow with an A). Not complicated. But I think people look at the LN and assume the FN must be hard, so the doctor's office staff, etc., usually say "uh... Meena?" Sigh. As it's a transliteration from Korean and has no real traditional English spelling, we chose Minn@ over the more literal transcriptions of Mina or Minah specifically to avoid a meena or mye-na pronunciation. Oh well. At least the name she usually goes by is a common, largely foolproof noun. She can always put that on resumes and leave off the FN, if she wants.
Tirzah, thanks for the Maple Sylvie news! I've seen Maple discussed on some boards (esp. as a good crossover choice for quirky, patriotic, nature-loving, ex-pat Canadians [boy, that does sound like a niche market...]), but I haven't quite adjusted to it as a name yet--it's still more syrup to me than tree, sadly. But it's an interesting choice that could grow on me--I do love Sylvie, of course.
I get the same thing with my last name. People look and it and I can almost see the panic in their eyes wondering how to pronounce it. But, it's completely phonetic, just sound it out.
My first question regarding the study is, "Easily pronounceable to whom?" My last name is tough for many in the U.S.*, but in Nigeria, where it originates, it's a very common name. In a multi-cultural country, I definitely don't think how a name is pronounced should be much of a factor in naming a baby because there will always be someone who can't pronounce any given name.
*And I really have to laugh at the people who practically freak out at having to pronounce my name, considering I live in an area with lots of Polish names and yet people don't have problems pronouncing them.
Well, here in the real world, we pronounce it BOM-bar-DEER and it means a member of the air crew of a bomber, who operates the bombsight and releases the bombs ... ;-)
My grandmother's name was Maple, and her brother and sister were named Elwood and Fern. She was from Texas, not Canada, for what its worth. I've always thought Maple was much-lovelier alternative to Mabel, and has been on my short list of names for my imaginary daughter.
The first time that I became aware that people out there say Bom-bar-DEER was when Rosie O'Donnell was talking about her recreational watercraft. I thought that she was referring to some item that I didn't know... and then I saw it written and realized that she was talking about Bombardier. I was shocked. Shocked, I tell you! (Although, to be fair, I'm sure that I kill names of things that are in languages that I don't speak. And I'll bet that it kills people who do speak those languages as much as the murder of French kills me.)
I think that effort goes a long way. If I see that someone is trying to say an unfamiliar name or word properly, then that person gets credit in my mind. In my opinion, if you don't know how to say someone's name, then ask. And if someone asks you how to say your (or your child's) name, even if this is a question that you have to answer all the time, be gracious and appreciate that they are trying.
Furthermore, some people are meticulously phonetic in their reading, while others take in the word's overall form and makes a best guess. The latter people are incredibly annoying to the former variety, but we phonetic people need to be patient... Especially when our spouses fall into the other category.
Interesting point... I wonder if it is more important for a name to be easy to pronounce or classicly spelled in order to make a good impression for jobs,etc....
And to add in my own little naming challenge here...
There is a number of names which I love for girls. The issue is, i love them all. Which first/ middle combinations do you prefer most?
First name options:
Lydia
Hannah
Adelia
Leah
Julia
Mollie
Sarah
Lily
Leonie (Maybe)
Clara
Sophia
Savvannah
Leanna
Cora
Amelia
Either:
Annaliese
Caroline
Astrid (Maybe)
Evelyn
Genevieve
Cordelia
Charlotte
Tess
Madaline
Violet
Middle options:
Grace
Kate
Mae
Faith
Ruth
Mabel
Danielle
Renee
Jane
Clare
Makenzie
Garrett
Rose
Lielle (pro. Lie-elle and a maybe. Potentially to close to lyle.)
With this spelling, the typical pronunciation is IM-oh-jen (emphasis on first syllable). If the name is spelled Imogene, the typical pronunciation is Im-oh-GENE (emphasis on the last syllable). It's a common name in the UK--apparently not so common in the US. =)
Mobey-I love a lot of your choices. They very closely match my style. In fact since it is close to your style I will tell you that my dd's name is Natalie Ren33. So here are some combos for you: (btw combos are my favorite thing to do and some would say my specialty so I may have more to follow). Also, sometimes it matters what your LN is so you may just want to let us know if its short, long or rhymes with a common word or anything.
Lydia Charlotte
Cordelia Annaliese
Julia Rose
Leah Faith
Hannah Mae
Sarah Danielle
Adelia Jane
Mollie Renee/Danielle/Grace
Lily Cordelia
Tessa Leonie
Clara Rose/Evelyn
Savannah Ruth
Sophia Adele/Leanne
Leanna Claire/Danielle
Amelia Kate/Claire/Grace
I usually put an open ending matched with a closed ending like Lydia ends in -aaaahhhh and Charlotte ends in -t. So have fun playing with them you have a lot of possibilities.
Karyn-I also would say Bom-bah-deer until corrected. There are plenty of words around like that. I don't think those that do (or don't) say them the foreign way are being pretentious or anything because just like me I assume that's the way they think they should be unless they are told differently.
Re Maple: It is a very different kind of name. But I suppose not that different from someone using Marjoram as a variation on Majorie. Maple also reminds me of Mabel. I wouldn't have paired it with Sylvia.
bergmm-It is uncommon but not unheard of. It shouldn't be too difficult to correct most people. There is a book called Imogene's Antlers. It's cute-look it up.
My daughter is Brenna but we get Bree-ann-a and Bree-ah-nah, all the time. I always correct people, politely.
Mobey: Many of your names were similar to ones I had on my girl list.
I like combos:
Clara Grace
Charlotte Rose
Leah Rose/Grace
Cora Mae
Violet Clare
Caroline Jane
Ultimately, it comes down to knowledge and your surroundings, right? Of course, if you don't speak French and everyone around you is pronouncing "Moulin Rouge" as Moo-lawn, you are probably going to do the same. (Especially if the commercials for the movie call it that, too.) However, if you just saw the word and guessed how to say it, wouldn't you guess something more like "Moo-lin" (rhymes with hairpin)? The actual French pronunciation ends in a nasal vowel that isn't intuitive to an English speaker, and because of that, I would completely understand use of the wrong-but-intuitive pronunciation. Bombardier wasn't the best example because the anglicized version is intuitively based on the spelling of the word. But once you know French rules, you can't see it any other way, and what is intuitive changes.
I think that this applies to the issue of names, too. What is intuitive depends on your frame of reference. What seems obvious to one, may not be to someone else (see the Imogen question above). I have found that the first person that I encounter with a certain name has a lasting influence on how I pronounce and spell it. If a name has obvious origins in a language that I speak, I can't help but want to apply the rules of that language to the name. But if you want to call it Mont-pee-lee-yer, fine, I'll train myself to do so because that's how you say it - but saying it that way won't change the fact that it feels so very wrong :) Intuition is so relative and personal that it's a wonder that we get so many names right.
Karyn-post#18 was so very well said. I think a lot depends on point of reference. As I tried to say above, but probably not very well, it is all in how you are trained to pronounce what you see from a young age and with certain accents. The best example I can think of is the town of Gloucester, Massachusetts. It LOOKS like Glou-sess-ter (first syl rhymes with cow). However, it REALLY is Glou-ster. The town of Worcester is the same way looking like War-sess-ter but said like Woo-ster. I learned the correct way but yes it still seems odd to me to pronounce them that way.
To clarify, bombardier in [American?] English, referring to one who bombs, *is* properly pronounced as "bäm-bə-ˈdir, -bər-" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bombardier). However, if I saw it as a surname on a French-speaking individual, or some other French context, I would assume a French pronunciation.
But, speaking of French words that feel wrong in English, I have always cringed at the pronunciation of W.E.B. DuBois (doo-boys), Versailles as "ver-sayles"--a local place name, and the Bourbon family like the liquor (ber-bun--I know some kids are taught that in school, but my teachers always used the French pronunciation, so it feels very wrong to me).
Mobey, as a quick reaction, you have a lot of nice options on your list, but my favorites are probably:
Clara Genevieve
Violet Jane
Leonie Rose or Leonie Clare
Caroline Ruth
Charlotte Mabel
Evelyn Mae
And speaking of pronunciation issues, how are you pronouncing Annaliese? I like it with German "ah-nah-lee-zeh", but I'm not sure how most people say it.
hyz, that's exactly my point. Yes, bombardier is a French word that was long ago borrowed into English and has a proper English pronunciation. However, when talking about a company named after the founder, a man with the French name Bombardier, it's really not the same word at all. It's about context, and context is often lacking when encountering a name.
Furthermore, in the milieu where I grew up, an anglophone in a predominantly French province, nobody would pronounce it in the English way, so I was taken aback when it was pointed out to me that the pronunciation wasn't plainly obvious. There are other words that, while they have been integrated into English and have accepted English pronunciations, these pronunciations sound odd to me. Examples that spring to mind include niche (neesh, not nich) and croissant (I'm too tired to try writing out that one). Oh, and probably milieu, too, now that I think about it.
I think that when a written-to-spoken mapping is very familiar to you in one language, it can be quite hard to change the way that you perceive it. For instance, above (#13), Mobey mentioned the name Lielle and wanted to pronounce it Lye-ell. That one would take a lot of effort for me because the pronunciation Lee-EL is being reinforced from two languages: (1) It looks French, and in French it would be lee-EL and (2) Liel (lee-EL) is a relatively well-known Hebrew name. I know that it was being proposed for a middle name and that those are spoken by strangers much less often than first names are, but if correcting people would annoy you, I'd say something else is safer.
Regarding "Maple"--
a) I think it's cute.
b) It makes me think of the poem "Maple," by Robert Frost, which is about a girl named Maple and the influence of her name on her throughout her life. You can read it here: http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/robert_frost/poems/731
Karyn, I thought that's what you meant, but I wasn't sure--thank you for clarifying. If it makes you feel any better, I think "neesh" is at least as common among English speakers as "nich" (nich sounds funny to me, too), and I would definitely assume Lielle was "lee-EL" because it does look French. You said "I think that when a written-to-spoken mapping is very familiar to you in one language, it can be quite hard to change the way that you perceive it." I agree, and would go a step further to say that if you have/give a name that is unfamiliar, but contains strong clues on how to pronounce it (e.g. -elle ending is typically French), then it makes sense to expect people will use those clues to inform their pronunciation. That could be either good or bad, depending on whether you want the intuitive pronuciation, or something different. That's the only reason I didn't pick Lielle as a favorite from Mobey's list--I think it's really sweet and lovely as lee-EL, but as lye-EL it seems less coherent to me and I'd expect a lot of pronunciation problems.
(p.s. if Mobey were using the lee-EL pronunciation, I think Clara Lielle might leapfrog up to my first choice--so pretty).
So when the study says that they categorize last names by foreign vs anglo, does that mean they filtered out the "foreign" names? Cause it sounds to me that they're saying people with more Anglo names have it easier and those people are more successful. Am I reading that right?
Maybe I have a chip on my shoulder cause I have a complicated Slavic last name and it's taken me years to come to terms with it. I've still gotten hired for jobs though, despite that.
I don't think the answer is that we should all change our last names to Johnson so people know how to say it. Last names are a strong reminder of the ethnically diverse nature of this country that speaks directly to our identity.
PJ-I think they meant those that were clearly from another culture (Asian names or Middle Eastern names come to mind).
I was just thinking of alternate pronunciation/spelling first names that would still look pretty to me and thought of this after reading the Lielle part of hyz's post. How about this: Natille
Would you still pronounce it Na-ta-lie or look at it and think Nah-till-ee or Nah-teel or just shake your head and say "huh"?
@zoerhenne:
I think I would pronounce Natille as Nah-teel. Honestly, I don't think I'd ever even think of Nah-ta-lie or Nah-till-ee.
I'm so proud of my 9-year-old daughter! We found out yesterday that her cousin Evelyn Vi0let is going to have a little sister. I asked my kids what they thought the baby's name might be, and my daughter immediately responded "Alice". Kudos! My choices were Stella, Adelaide, or Cecilia.
@hyz, I thought W.E.B. DuBois said his name as /due-boys/. If that's correct then wouldn't using the French pronunciation be incorrect in this instance (going back to the post about spoken vs written names)?
Amy3, yes, he did (as far as I know), so that's how I say it, too--I was just saying that it sort of pains me to do so because it *feels* wrong, like Karyn was saying re: Montpelier.
zoerhenne, ditto amz25 exactly. I would definitely think na-TEEL. My only second guess (and a distant second, at that) would be na-TILL.
Re: the study, I haven't been able to read it, but it's not clear to me how they dealt with Anglo v. other names. Were the Lings and Shahs thrown in with the Smiths and Andersons because they're easy to pronounce? Were the Ngs and Wiczyks put in with the Colquhouns or considered separately somehow? It looks like you have to purchase the full text to find out, but I would be interested to know how they tried to parse these factors.
Thanks, hyz, that does make me feel better. As does knowing that my points were coherently expressed.
I have access to the full article and I can share it to anyone who wants. Just send an message with your email address to attitudes.research (at) gmail.com
re: Natille, I would definitely say na-TEEL, but if I knew that the person was German,I would change accordingly. "Natalie", however, would never enter my mind, partially because I don't make the second "a" sound i-ish, as some people do. I tend to be rather literal with vowel sounds, making, for example, Jordan and Jordyn quite different.
Thanks guys for responding. If it weren't me that had asked the question I probably wouldn't think of Natalie either. I thought I would ask because of the previous thread. Maybe someone should write a book with some examples regarding intuitive pronunciations so these kinds of names don't become too mainstream.
Regarding Maple Sylvie, I forgot to note that she has a big sister named Francesca Nora. Based on interviews, Francesca goes almost exclusively by the nickname "Fannie." Maple and Fannie are very quaint and old-fashioned!
Hyz, regarding your question about Cassandra on the former post, one Cassandra is Asian and the other appears to be Caucasian. (Both sets of parents appear to be Caucasian.) So no Hispanic influence as far as I can tell. Interestingly, in one of the families, the women are named Catherine, Charlotte and Cassandra. I think there is another older sister; I wonder what her name is. Caroline? Claire? Cecilia? Inquiring minds want to know! :)
A girlfriend of mine is considering Elijah for a girl. I know, I know, most people don't like to cross that bright line between boys' names and girls' names and this is clearly a boy's name. But personally, if you're going to cross that line, this one isn't so bad to me. First, since the family is religious, Elijah is a positive Christian role model for a kid, whether male or female. Second, there is no obvious female version of Elijah. (I understand that Eliana is the female version in Hebrew, but most people aren't going to know that or make the connection to Elijah.) Third, it has a feminine sounding ending. (I should know, having the female Hebrew name Tirzah.) Finally, in my most controversial point, the fact that the family is African American gives them more social leeway to use an unusual name. Right now, the mom is looking at Elijah Belle. She even is considering the double barrelled first name Elijah-Belle. Thoughts?
Handmaiden, thanks for the Robert Frost poem on Maple. It's a cautionary tale for baby namers!
Karyn, I totally identify everything you've said about the pronunciation of French words in English. I was fully bilingual until the age of ten or so (though no longer, unfortunately... if you don't use it, you lose it), and I still struggle with certain words and names. I'm pretty sure I don't know how to pronounce most of the French place names in the US (The many places called Presque Isle? No clue, but I'm pretty sure it's not how I'm thinking it in my head, which is something like press-KEEL). Regarding Lielle, I definitely agree that lee-EL is how I would automatically pronounce it.
A good example of the frame of reference issue: there is a street in New York called Houston Street. You're thinking HYOOS-tun, right, like the city in Texas? But the street in New York is pronounced HOUSE-tun. The mistake is understandable—I've even heard native New Yorkers get it wrong the first time, if they haven't spent much time downtown. But if you think about it, the HOUSE-tun pronunciation should be more intuitive, given that "house" is a familiar, everyday English word; it's just that we're conditioned to think HYOOS first because the city in Texas gets greater exposure. (NB, the original Houston is in Scotland, but I'm not sure how it's pronounced there. It's derived from "Hugo's village," which would suggest like in Texas, but I'm not sure how the Great Vowel Shift affected things).
Tirzah - your Elijah-Belle story reminds me of how in some Catholic cultures it's not uncommon for girls to have a double name in which one of the names is masculine (though usually one of those names is Maria/Marie/Mary)—e.g. Maria José in Spanish or Marie-Josèphe in French (although in that case the e makes Josèphe feminine). I've also heard of nuns called Sister Mary Patrick, etc. So given the precedent, I definitely think the double name or hyphenated version goes a long way toward making Elijah on a girl more acceptable.
Sorry Tirzah, Elijah-Belle makes me cringe. I am warming to Elliott but of course Elliott-Belle does not have that certain flow to it. The former also reminds me of Cher's child Elijah Blue. Hmm what other choices along the same sound lines:
Ellery? Elisha? I don't know any other El-names besides Elizabeth, Ellen and other clearly NON-Hebrew names.
I think that the difference between Catholic names like Jean-Marie for males and Marie-Pierre or Marie-Claude for females and Elijah-Belle is that the "gender-appropriate" name comes first in the Catholic examples. If the proposed name were Mary-Elijah or what have you, I think that it would feel less like a girl-with-a-boy's-name. For me, at least.
EVie, the Presque Isle I know (in PA) is said "Presk eye-l" (normal US Isle pronunciation), if that helps.
zoerhenne, I see that Natille is listed as an English alternate spelling for Natalie at behindthename.com, so apparently you are not alone in thinking of it. I pronounce Natalie almost exactly like nattily, so my best shot at an alternate spelling in the vein of Natille would be Nattilie, which is def. not foolproof but which I think is more likely to get the right pronunciation. I realize I am being a bit of a curmudgeon about spelling and pronunciation--I try to keep an open mind, but it's hard--I guess it's just one of my pet peeves.
Re: the book idea--I think it would be fairly easy to write a book that covers the basic rules (any phonics primer should do), but maybe nearly impossible to write one that captures the nuances of all the cultural cues that are tied up in a name. It seems so case specific, and is something you learn as you absorb the culture over time. Some are simple enough, like knowing (even if you never studied French) that the vowel-consonant-consonant-E ending (-elle, -otte, -inne, etc.) is French, and thereby suggests continental vowel pronunciation and an emphasis on the last syllable. But some are more individual, like knowing that -ine is also often (but not always!) French, and that English speakers only follow French pronunciation for -ine sometimes (Maxine, Pauline), but that it can also be like -eye or -ih (Caroline, Catherine). Maybe this isn't the best example, but I think you know what I mean. It shows the hazards of trying to generalize spelling rules in an idiomatic language without proper context, and the challenge of trying to capture everything in a written set of rules.
Tirzah--hmm... of course, I would not typically be in favor of Elijah on a girl, but had the same thought as EVie--when combined with Belle, it helps eliminate the gender confusion and has more of a traditional ring to it. Elijah Belle is long, which could be a concern, but it flows nicely. I don't know if I'd hyphenate, or just plan to call her by first and middle, and maybe even give her a separate middle to emphasize that Belle is part of the first name (Elijah Belle Marie Smith). Has she considered Eliza? It's so close to Elijah, very pretty, and less divisive/complicated. Anyway, Elijah obviously wouldn't be my first choice for a girl generally, but when combined with Belle, I think it does have some charm.
Karyn, good point. I am trying to think of examples where the opposite sex names come first, and the best I can come up with offhand are things like Bobby Sue, Jerry Lynne, Billie Jean, etc.
I have never liked my name because it is Maryjane and I get a lot of jokes for it so when I marry I'm going to change my name from Maryjane to Aonni (the combination of the two word phrase for nothing in Irish) and when I have babies I intend to name them Salem Denahi and Ransom Secret but that has gotten me a lot a lot of criticism. (especially from my mother.)
Aonni-pertinent to this discussion, how do you pronounce your new name? It appears to me that it might be Ay-on-ee or maybe a twist on Annie. Please fill us in since it is a created name.
Also, I think your potential children's names are different. I would picture Salem a boy and Ransom a girl. Salem doesn't seem too off because you could use Sal as a nn and Ransom equates to the likes of Scout so that would just be an uncommon name but not totally out there.
hyz-there would of course be difficulties in writing a book like that. I was being a bit rhetorical. It was just that those that responded to my spelling of Natille, all said it similarly. It seemed to suggest that parents who want different pronunciations away from the intuitive/common ways are asking quite a bit. But I guess it's kind of like raising children, there is no one model that works for everyone.
ETA:
Tirzah-how about Eulalie? I would find Eulalie Belle very pleasing as compared to Elijah-Belle
Tirzah - I'm not a fan of Elijah-Belle, especially not with the hyphenation. I feel like adding Belle trivializes Elijah in a way. Something with history and meaning has had a cutesy ending tacked on to it, in my opinion.
I can kind of get behind Elijah, though. I don't mind the boy-name-on-girl feeling of it. The sound is nice, and it feels strong and serious. It has the feeling of a name that's a blessing or honor being bestowed on the kid.
I'd at least keep Belle as a middle and not tack it on, though. Style-wise, Belle just seems SO far off to me. Like it comes from different values or priorities, even. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.
I was reading a review for the movie Pariah in which it is mentioned that the actress named Adepero Oduye plays a character named Alike.
1) I was several sentences in before I realized that the name that I was reading as "ə-LEE-kay" was actually the English word "alike". I then searched for other reviews to see if the proper pronunciation was mentioned and it seems that my gut was right. Yay, context!
2) If I were in a situation where I had to say the actress's name aloud, I would feel quite apprehensive - especially with saying her last name. I mean, I could guess, but since I don't have any personal knowledge of African names, I would not feel confident in my guess. If I were in a situation where I was planning to interview her, I would certainly ask around before speaking to her directly... although I would never decide not to interview her because I wasn't sure how to say her name.
Edit: According to a source, her name is pronounced “Add-eh-pair-o Oh-due-yay.” Turns out that I was right about the last name and mostly right about the first.
My name is Lidewei -- EVERYONE mispronounces it the first time! Another misspelled name is Meka'la. I know a girl in both my advanced English class AND my choir class with that name, and it's always pronounced as "MEE-ka-la" or "MEK-a-la", never as "mi-KAY-la", how she pronounces it, and how it was intended to be pronounced. To make matters worse, the apostrophe wasn't entered right in the school system, so her name looks like "Meka La" on official school documents.
Happycrazy-I am not 100% sure about your name. I would say it as Lee-da-way. If that's not right I'm sure I could be corrected. But your friend should be happy that I saw her name correctly with the apostrophe. However, if the apostrophe is removed it does seem like it's Mek-a-la. You should look back a thread or two and read Laura's post on punctuation. Here is the link for you:
http://www.babynamewizard.com/archives/2012/1/the-next-frontiers-in-name...
Happycrazy--Meka'la is a tough one, because there's no indication there that I can see that the first A is supposed to have the long "AY" sound, or, for that matter, that the stress should be on the second syllable. I would definitely have guessed MEE-ka-la or MEK-ah-la.
I'm hoping for name thoughts. I am 16 weeks with girl-girl twins and they need names and we've got nothing. I'm focusing first on figuring out our parameters and would appreciate any help on that as well as any name thoughts if you have them!
1. Existing names in the sib set: Trajan Alexander (4.5), Aurelia Diane (stillborn) and Chiron Falco (Aurelia's twin, 14 months now)
2. The existing names all have one Greek and one Roman name, but we are not absolutely committed to this. We would be comfortable departing some
3. We do really like that there is a specific historical or mythological reference for their first names (good for their time period, i.e. no arch-villains)
4. We do like relatively unique. That said, as long as it's not in the top hundred or so, we wouldn't rule it out (and more flexible for middles)
5. Value having a sound we like (so not going to name one Hatshepsut despite meeting the above criterion)
6. Easy nickname is a bonus
7. Like pronounceable/spellable once someone has been told
8. Would like them to fit with the existing names, both when screamed and signed on a card. This is really more about fitting with Trajan and Chiron as Aurelia's name comes up less often since she was stillborn.
9. We have had some friends recommend Mirena (name of the contraception method we had in place when they were conceived) and this is officially not being considered :-P
10. I'd prefer them to not be very matchy-matchy. This is harder in the -ia endings of Roman names though.
Any thoughts?
I just have been playing with the namematcher and I'm thinking we may need to give up the historical/mythological aspect on females...
Rhea and Ariadne both popped up this afternoon as possibles..
chipper28 - I remember you from last time you came looking for Greek/Roman names, because I love your classical taste. I'm so sorry about the loss of your daughter. Aurelia Diane is a beautiful name.
I'm not sure how flexible you are with the idea of what constitutes a positive historical association (since a lot of mythological figures are neutral or quite complex), so I'm just going to throw a bunch of names at you. You can find most of these on Wikipedia if you need more context, except for the real-life Roman names—there isn't a whole lot recorded about Roman women.
Roman gens names:
Cecilia (or you could use the Roman spelling Caecilia), Celia/Caelia, Livia, Junia, Laelia, Portia, Cassia, Flavia
Roman praenomens:
Lucia, Gaia/Caia, Octavia, Tertia
Greek/Roman saints:
Beatrix (or you could use the earlier Latin Viatrix), Perpetua, Felicity/Felicitas, Philomena
From Roman mythology:
Silvia, Aurora, Verity/Veritas, Lavinia, Juno
Not names in ancient Rome, but:
Laurel - an important and positive symbol in the ancient world
Lux - means "light" in Latin and is the root of Lucia/Lucy
Greek names (mostly from mythology):
Ariadne, Phoebe, Daphne, Thalia, Clio, Callisto/Callista, Penelope, Athena, Maia, Danaë (DAN-uh-ee), Charis (KAAR-is), Persephone, Leandra, Hero, Briseis (bry-SEE-is or bry-SAY-is... evolved to Briseida in the Middle Ages), Chryseis (cry-SEE-is or cry-SAY-is, the derivation of the medieval name Cressida), Eris, Phaedra, Thaïs, Andromeda, Aletheia, Calypso, Antigone, Cassiopeia, Io, Astraea, Eurydice (yeu-RID-ih-see), Xanthe, Elysia (not a person, but derived from Elysium, the Greek afterlife paradise), Lyra (not a person, but a constellation associated with the myth of Orpheus)
I love the idea of combining the more flowery Roman names with some of the more snappy Greek names, like Lavinia Clio, Aurora Thaïs, Lucia Calypso, Silvia Xanthe, Felicity Charis... or the other way around, Persephone Lux, Maia Verity, etc.
Chipper28 - I also remember you from last time. I'm so sorry to hear about Aurelia's stillbirth :( Lovely names you picked for Aurelia and Chiron though.
I'm not great at suggesting this category of names but of the ones suggested above I really like:
Junia
Cassia
Octavia
Ariadne
Charis
Briseis
Phaedra
Antigone
Cassiopeia
Xanthe
Clio
Ariadne and Xanthe were both on the short list for my daughter and are firm favourites. I love some of the combos EVie suggested above.