Odilia, Odelia, Ottilia, Otylia?
We are considering the name Odilia, but I am torn on the spelling. I like Odilia for the reason that it is the "original", but I don't love the way it looks. I also fear that it would get a "dill" sound in the middle. Odelia looks/seems a little more straightforward, but I slightly dislike that it is the Anglicization, as it somehow seems less genuine/ looses the German connection. I would be happy to go with the current German version, if I could keep the German pronunciation, but I know that in the English speaking world, Ottilie is not the same name. I actually prefer the way the 't's sound over the 'd' (and for that matter, I prefer the softer "eh" sound at the end over the "a"). Other varients that I have found include the Swedish Ottilia (although this is slightly cheating, as my Scandinavian heritage is Finnish, not Swedish), and the Polish Otylia.
Which direction would you go with this? Any other suggestions?
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 6:22pm
Replies
I personally would pronounce the Ds and Ts, so to me the German/English versions would be said differently than the Swedish/Polish versions. I also like it with the Ts better, and based purely on spelling, I prefer the Swedish Ottilia out of all four of your choices.
I would go with Ottilia, since it has the look and pronunciation you want, and is a legit current spelling which also happens to combine elements of both the original and current German spellings. I agree that the -tt- spellings are prettier, and trying to get oh-TILL-ya out of Ottilie will be an uphill battle for sure. Otylia is less familiar to me, and looks like it would also cause some pronunciation confusion (maybe oh-TILE-ya or OT-uh-LEE-ah?), and it doesn't sound like you have any strong reasons to pick a Polish spelling.
My husband does have some Polish heritage, but I am not a huge fan of the letter "y" anyhow, due to it's modern, creative uses.
I was actually seeing it more as oh-TEEL-e-ya (with that 'e' sound being very short). Would you consider that to be off/incorrect?
I was wondering whether the final vowels were to be pronounced ee-a or ya. I suspect other people will have the same confusion. But that doesn't seem to affect the popularity of Amelia or the charm of Celia, so I don't think it's a huge drawback.
As I learned German, the middle syllable would not be a hard EE, rhyming with Delia or Amelia in a standard American accent. It would be somewhere between TILL and TEEL--listen to the first speaker (from Germany) at this link: http://www.forvo.com/word/ottilie/#de . When the sound is in-between like that, I tend to think that the -ih sound is closer to the original, and I would be inclined to use that when speaking in a flat American accent (this issue also came up with my daughter's Korean name). Re: the end of the name, I tend to combine the -ia, and the speaker on that link does it as well. But in American speech, anyway, I tend to chalk that up more to personal/regional differences than anything else (like, how do you say then end of Dahlia, or regalia? I say -ya for both, but I'm sure lots of people say ee-ah for both, and I don't think either is wrong). I can't say whether the same variation occurs in German.
Thanks hyz, I agree about the ending sound being personal/negligible in difference. My question then still lies in the middle sound. When I listen to the German speaker on the link (which is actually what I had already previously listened to) I still hear more of an EEL than an ILL, but perhaps that is untrained ears, or just a simple inability to communicate the sound that I am trying to get at.
Would the majority of English speakers pronounce these names (Ottilie and Ottilia) with a middle sound like in the word till? I understand that this can be corrected to our desired pronunciation, but I just wonder what the default would be. Also, would your first syllable be more of an "ah" or "o" (I guess this matters more/only matters to me if you are using the "till" sound). I don't want to choose a name only to have it to sound like Attila!
For the record, we are in Canada, so NE & Southern US accents don't really come into play.
Well, I am in Canada, but since you said that NE US accents weren't relevant, I'll assume that you don't live near me. My instinctive pronunciation of both Ottilie and Ottilia is o-TIH-lee-a (o like "wrote", till in the middle, but broken over two syllables). When I stop to really analyze it, the double "t" makes me want to change the initial sound to "aw" like "hot", but that's only after over-thinking, and I never use the same vowel as I use in Attila, which is the schwa at the end of "sofa".
Also, I have a friend named Odelia, who pronounces it in the Hebrew manner of o-DEHL-ya, so to me, it is not pronounced in the same way as any of the other options - though I think that it's a really beautiful name.
Thanks Karyn! I don't mind your pronunciation at all. And yes, I am in Alberta (sorry for neglecting the various Maritime accents).
I definitely agree that the sound is between EEL and ILL, not one or the other, so I think which one you lean towards may be an individual matter. For instance, the I sound in Korean is very similar when it's between two consonants. The name JIN (referring to the Korean characters that correspond to those three letters) is alternately transliterated as Jin or Jean. But the surname Kim is always written and pronounced that way, and never as Keem, as far as I know. The Korean characters in my daughter's name are literally transliterated as MIN-AH, but we chose to write it as M1nna specifically to avoid the EE sound, which sounds wrong to us and (therefore?) also much less attractive.
I would guess that most native English speakers would pronounce Ottilie to rhyme with haughtily, that is, the same O as in "otter", and emphasis on the first syllable. But then, I've found that some people start making crazy guesses when confronted by an unfamiliar name (even a simple phonetic one like my daughter's), and I wouldn't be surprised if you also heard things like oh-TYE-lee or aw-til-LYE (kind of like Lorelei). But I actually think that TEEL is the least likely pronunciation that most English speakers would guess--maybe it's different in Canada where more people are at least somewhat familiar with French and the idea of I=EE is not so foreign (literally) to them. For Ottilia, similar story--I think Oh-TILL-ee-ah or something to that effect would be most people's first guess (kind of following the pattern of Olympia).
Ottilie made it to the short list for my daughter. We wanted to use the German pronunciation and we figured it might cause some issues. As a result we were mostly considering it for a middle name.
That said I still have it on the list for a future daughter and won't rule it out of a first name spot. I think Otillie will always get pronounced oh-TILL-ee unless corrected.
Looking at your options I agree the T versions are prettier than the D versions. I did briefly consider Odilia but much prefer the look of Ottilie. Plus with our accent T's and D's sound very different. I think Odelia is very pretty but again a different sound for me.
I think Ottilia is the best of your options and will get your the closest the the pronunciation you want but I still will put a plug in for Ottilie. For me Ottilie has something that Ottilia doesn't quite have. They are both lovely names though. I also prefer the 'eh' sound over the 'ah' over Ottilia. Even if it's an uphill battle to get the pronunciation you prefer it's not that hard and once people get it they shouldn't have any trouble.
Otylia does look quite Polish to me and while that isn't a problem there doesn't seem to have a compelling reason to use it over any of the others.
Odelia made me think of Cordelia (which is also a favourite of mine). Is that going too far off track?
I agree that "Ottilie has something that Ottilia doesn't quite have". Honestly, I didn't care for the name when it was first suggested to me on these boards, exclusively because I wasn't aware of the original pronunciation. Now it just seems to carry something special that the other versions are missing.
I suppose that my other concern would be that if we get too fussy about pronouncing Ottilie the German way, we may have to take some heat for not pronouncing our little Anneliese's name "properly", as we ignore the final 'e' (although if people could swing that in the true German way, I wouldn't mind it either, I just don't care for the Anna-Lisa way it would sound if English speakers tried). I worry that we may not have set the best precedent in this area!
Ottilie/Ottilia are a lovely match for Anneliese! I think you might have more luck with getting the 'correct' pronunciation for Otillie than you would for Anneliese. Anneliese is too familar and most people wouldn't pronounce the 'eh' unless repeatedly reminded. I can see why it might come across as funny though to use the German pronunciation with one and not the other so Ottilia might be a nice compromise.
Either way I would love to see a little Ottilie or Otillia :)
I like the Ottilia spelling best and it matches the pronunciation you want. The d versions don't work if you prefer the t sound. Ottilie willoften be mispronounced with an -ee ending, so it makes more sense to me to use the -a spelling if that's the pronunciation your prefer.
Ottilia is also an accepted spelling in Hungarian (although the more traditional is Otília, with one 't' and a long [in duration] 'i' in the second syllable).
Given how historically well-mixed the Swedish and Finnish naming pools are/were, I wouldn't be surprised if Ottilia were also Finnish. It also appears to be an older German spelling.
All in all, I think Ottilia is the most "portable" (or international) spelling, and the most likely to get a correct pronunciation. I think it's also the prettiest variant of this lovely name.
I have seen indication that it is used in Finland (as you said, most Swedish names are), which is why it doesn't feel like downright theft. I think that Ottilia is looking like a strong front-runner (with some mild dissapointment that it isn't Ottilie).
My husband is German so I had him say Ottilie for me. With his Bavarian accent, it is very different from how I think Odilia or Odelia would be said by the average American. The T's do make a lot of difference and the schwa E on the end is much softer than the A. I think if you spell it Ottilie, it's going to be very difficult to get English speakers to say it correctly. It isn't an impossible name, but I imagine you (and your daughter ) will have to do a lot of correcting and spelling. I also see people wanting to nick it to Tillie because it's more familiar/easy to say & remember. This could be annoying, but it could also be a good thing as she'd have something to fall back on if she just got tired of correcting people.
I imagine people will get Odilia a little better-but I think you might get "o dill ya" a lot. Someone else mentioned Amelia as an example so I think that would give you a good reference point when correcting people.
Odelia also reminds me of Cordelia and is probably the spelling I would use. I think it's least likely to be problematic for English speakers and Cordelia is an excellant reference point for helping anyone who does have trouble. I also love the name Cordelia, so Odelia's similiarity is probably influencing my choice a lot. Having heard a German say Ottilie I agree that it really isn't quite the same name though.
I like Odelia for the sake that, as you mentioned, it would probably get the least pronunciation issues. Interestingly enough, I have no fondness for the name Cordelia, but I think this may be due to the fact that I dated a Cordell in JR high!
The Amelia reference will probably come in handy no matter what we choose!
I'll offer yet another variation for you to consider: Otelia. The first and only place I've encountered it was at my alma mater, which annually held an Otelia Cromwell Day program, in honor of the college's first African-American alumna. I don't know how the historical usage of this variant compares with the rest of the Odelia/Ottliie family but I see two advantages for your purposes: you get the t sound, which you say you prefer, rather than the d, and you get a perfectly straightforward pronunciation for the name as a whole. I doubt many of my classmates had encountered Otelia before Ms. Cromwell either, but I never heard anyone having any trouble getting her name right.
I speak German and agree that while I enjoy the German pronunciation of Ottilie (and don't care so much for the American approximation), it will a tall order to get others to say it that way. I think this will be an uphill battle even after correcting/demonstrating your preferred pronunciation, and it's extremely unlikely others will say it "right" on the first try. Even knowing the German pronunciation, I'd be unlikely to go to that first encountering the name on an American child; unless I knew the family were German, I'd hesitate, assuming the parents chose the name expecting and wanting it to be pronounced OTT-uh-lee. Similarly, for an American Anneliese I guess AH-nuh-lees or ANN-uh-lees rather than AH-nuh-lee-zuh.
Hope this helps!
I would definitely go with Odelia if you plan to pronounce it "oh-DEE-lee-ah." If you plan to pronounce it "oh-DILL-ee-ah" or "oh-TILL-ee-ah" or "OTT-ill-ee", then the other versions that you mention would be fine. But I would definitely spell it Odelia if that's how you want it pronounced. I think the others will lead to repeated mispronunciation in English. Even after being corrected, it would take me a LONG time to get used to the fact that "Odilia" was supposed to be pronounced the same as "Odelia." If I had never heard of the name Odelia, it might not be hard to adjust, but since there is an clearly accepted (at least in English) spelling of Odelia, anything else would lead me to assume that it's supposed to be pronounced differently from Odelia.
I am a teacher and I have several students whose names are spelled in such a way that it is nearly impossible for me to remember to adjust to the different pronunciation. For example, I have an "AH-nah" that is spelled "Anna" and (even after 2 years) it is difficult for me to remember not to say "ANN-ah."I'm just so used to "AH-nah"s being spelled "Ana" and "ANN-ah"s being spelled "Anna".
As a kid, I also had a name that was easy to mess up (not because of the spelling or pronunciation, but just because it was an uncommon name and everyone thought my last name was my first name). I was pretty shy, so I had to correct teachers on a near-daily basis and it was awful. I love my name, but when it comes to naming my own children, I definitely take that into consideration. A lifetime of frustration seems like a big price to pay in order to get the more "authentic" spelling.
If the name that you are looking for is NOT pronounced the same as "Odelia," then of course, you should go with the spelling/pronunciation that works best. But if the name is essentially the same as Odelia except for the spelling, then I would recommend going with the spelling that will be easiest on her throughout her lifetime.
I love the name, by the way.
I completely identify with your experience of Anna pronounced "AH-nah". I know a young girl called Sarah pronounced "Sara" (first syllable rhymes with car, not chair). I'm fine with pronouncing it because I heard it before I saw it written, but it's likely to be mispronounced by people reading it through her life.
OK, so I guess that I would be leaning between Odelia and Ottilia, although I wouldn't pronounce these the same. My preference is for Ottilia (whoops, when I typed this out I accidentally wrote Ottilie. Freudian slip?), as mentioned, I prefer the 't' sound, but the 'd' isn't a deal-breaker. I would, however, put some importance on the central sound leaning more towards EEL than ILL.
Does anyone see this as an issue with Ottilia? If it wasn't your first guess, would it be difficult to break? I definitely recognize the issue with an Anna pronounced Ah-na, as Anna is fairly firmly engrained in most of our minds. I would peronally tend to place this in a different category though, or am I just being optimistic?
What about Hyz's suggestion that "maybe it's different in Canada where more people are at least somewhat familiar with French and the idea of I=EE is not so foreign (literally) to them." Any more Canadians out there want to share your first impressions of the name (thanks Karyn).
Sorry, half the time my computer keeps me logged in, and the other half I forget to check! That was me.
I think I would probably go with Ottilia, because even though you say T's and D's the same many people do not. That way you will be more likely to get the preferred pronunciation where ever you go. Also, if you use Ottilia you could always use Ottilie as a nickname/pet name.
I don't think you should have too many problems with getting the TEEL sound over the TILL sound as, like you say, it's not a familiar name and most people will remember once corrected.
I'm the same as other posters, I struggle with Anna's pronounced Ah-na and Sarah pronounced SAHR-ah.
I'm going to be totally sidetracked and remark on how this name's multiple spellings always fascinate me. While it certainly has a timeless elegance and austerity to it, I am often surprised at how international the name is since I don't see/hear it much in the States.
That being said, I only have to go back two generations in both my family trees to find variations of it popping up--Ottiliage and Otilia.
Very nice choice. I wish I were brave enough to pay those female relatives homage by choosing it myself.